dark samus really could (and should) be a semi clone

[BronzeGreekGod]

I think making dark samus a partial clone is fine, but being an echo is a bit much. She really should have a few unique moves. A few of her normals (particularly her smashes) should definitely come from her assist trophy attacks. Down smash could easily be the phazon tenticles rising up from the ground, up smash could be similar to normal samuses but have phazon projectiles scatter upward, and forward smash can be esentially the same idea (looks the same as samus' but phazon scatters out of her arm canon).

It's odd because she has her own wait and walk animations, so I don't know why they went with making her a full echo.

 

[Idon]

I completely agree.

Honestly, if she keeps this moveset in Smash 6 (if it even happens), it would be a huge waste of character potential and a dissapointing disservice to her character.

They went through all the trouble of changing every single animation, but her actual moves remain the same. That's way more effort than even the Melee clones. I wish they put just a tiny bit more time into making her something more akin to to wolf or ganondorf in terms of uniqueness.

 

[Yuya-Noboru]

Echo fighters are here to increase the roster without involving too much work. Like other past-clones, she will be de-cloned in the next Super Smash Bros. or maybe in further update/DLC?. I don't think that they want Dark Samus to stay as a clone, it's just that it is actually the only way to get it in the game (as well as other new ε-characters). I'd like unique movesets for Dark Samus but I'm glad that it's in the game anyway.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Echo fighters are here to increase the roster without involving too much work. Like other past-clones, she will be de-cloned in the next Super Smash Bros. or maybe in further update/DLC?. I don't think that they want Dark Samus to stay as a clone, it's just that it is actually the only way to get it in the game (as well as other new ε-characters). I'd like unique movesets for Dark Samus but I'm glad that it's in the game anyway.

Changing every animation is a lot of work.. and they already have the animations and effects assets from smash4. And echos bloat the roster. They're wasteful

I highly doubt that echos will get new movesets as dlc. Sakurai is terrible for that. He's kept ganondorf a clone for decades cause he had to add him as a clone in melee. If he was to change echos in dlc, great. But I don't see it happening.

That all said, I was just thinking, have we seen all her A attacks?

 

[Standlord]

I'd take one or even two less newcomers if all echoes had a few unique moves and Ganondorf and Roy were decloned completely, not half-assed characters. Specially Ganondorf. Quality over quantity. I don't think it would take that much more time to do something decent. But unfortunately Sakurai doesn't think the same.

On one hand it's understandable that the number of newcomers isn't gonna be big and thus they want to prioritize that on this game. But on the other hand, Sakurai has never prioritized a little more quality on those movesets, not even when we had a lot of newcomers each game, and, in his ultimate game I was hoping this would change. But I guess not.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I'd take one or even two less newcomers if all echoes had a few unique moves and Ganondorf and Roy were decloned completely, not half-***** characters. Specially Ganondorf. Quality over quantity. I don't think it would take that much more time to do something decent. But unfortunately Sakurai doesn't think the same.

On one hand it's understandable that the number of newcomers isn't gonna be big and thus they want to prioritize that on this game. But on the other hand, Sakurai has never prioritized a little more quality on those movesets, not even when we had a lot of newcomers each game, and, in his ultimate game I was hoping this would change. But I guess not.

I'd get rid of all clones and echos to have 4 more unique characters.

 

[Standlord]

I'd get rid of all clones and echos to have 4 more unique characters.

I don't think that's an equal workload. But if it is and one of the "new" characters is Ganondorf, count me in. However, you would make a lot of people who main those characters sad, so I don't think that's optimal at this point.

 

[Farbeitfromme]

Dark Samus definitely had potential to be unique, based on the boss fights in the Prime series alone. Her scattershot, shinesparking, boost ball, and spreading of Phazon around the battlefield all could have been represented, as well as the use of Dark Echoes, perhaps as a cinematic final smash. I think it would have been cool if Dark Samus used some of the abilities Samus can do but never did in Smash, as well as some of the unique tricks she has up her sleeve.

But honestly... I fear that that would have been extremely unlikely. Making new animations for a character is one thing, but creating an mostly or entirely unique moveset for an aging, secondary character that could easily get away with being an echo might strike the developers as too much work. It would cut into the development time of other characters much more than making them an echo would. I'm personally content that they decided to make DS an echo, and I appreciate every little change to the character that I've seen so far. Would I have been happier with a unique character? Yes, but I totally understand why she is the way she is, and I'm not that upset.

I can imagine developers see these issues very differently than we do as fans. We do have to acknowledge that they are better judges as to what is feasible given the limitations placed on the game development, and I think that while we certainly don't have to agree with them, we should try to see their perspective. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if they went the extra mile and did more decloning and Luigification, especially for characters like Ganondorf who get shafted in that area, but the idea of clones doesn't irritate me to the same extent as it does some people. There are characters we would probably never get if not for echos, and I fear Dark Samus may have been one of those.

 

[Yuya-Noboru]

That all said, I was just thinking, have we seen all her A attacks?

I don't know if you can see all its attack but you might find answers in this video.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I completely agree.

Honestly, if she keeps this moveset in Smash 6 (if it even happens), it would be a huge waste of character potential and a dissapointing disservice to her character.

They went through all the trouble of changing every single animation, but her actual moves remain the same. That's way more effort than even the Melee clones. I wish they put just a tiny bit more time into making her something more akin to to wolf or ganondorf in terms of uniqueness.

Its especially annoying because they literally could have taken her assist trophy assets and recreate those attacks for her moveset. Really easy to do.

F Farbeitfromme but ^^^

I don't think that's an equal workload. But if it is and one of the "new" characters is Ganondorf, count me in. However, you would make a lot of people who main those characters sad, so I don't think that's optimal at this point.

Well I mean I'm talking about at the beginning of development - way back in the melee days. Don't make clones, just give us one extra unique character instead of any clones. It's too late now lol. Now we need alt movesets to be put in place for ganon and a couple others.

 

[Standlord]

Well I mean I'm talking about at the beginning of development - way back in the melee days. Don't make clones, just give us one extra unique character instead of any clones. It's too late now lol. Now we need alt movesets to be put in place for ganon and a couple others.

Yeah I agree. That's what I meant in my first message, quality over quantity.

 

[TheSqushiestManatee]

I definitely wish we got a unique Dark Samus. I mean I understand that she is just an echo fighter so it’s not like we would’ve got her in the game by not having her be a clone, but I certainly would have loved to see a unique Dark Samus and the fun moveset they could give her.

 

[Aetheri]

I'll be the first one to tell you that I 100% agree that Dark Samus should be unique or a semi-clone at worst.

However given the whole circumstance that she's hardly a relevant character anymore and one that likely won't have many future appearances as well as the fact that Sakurai's not going to be adding a whole lot of new characters with the fully unique characters coming in being hugely requested newcomers, Dark Samus likely falls down the chain of priority and putting in more time with each character becomes more and more difficult.

It's either Dark Samus is an echo fighter, or not a fighter at all. She without a doubt has a lot more to offer as a fighter and in possible future Smash appearances she may very well get upgraded from being an echo to something a lot more unique similar to Luigi and Ganondorf.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

She really woulda been fine with just 3 attacks based on her assist trophy. That's all the needs. I'd be 100 percent happy with that. It's ridiculous they didn't do that. I don't know who thinks of these things it's really frustrating. It would have been less work to do what I'm suggesting lol

 

[BasketballSKM]

Well tbf, I can't see them only giving Dark Samus a few new moves but not touching it's animations. It would be weird for Dark Samus to move exactly like Samus. I understand your complaint, but realistically if she wasn't an echo she wouldn't be in the game at all.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Well tbf, I can't see them only giving Dark Samus a few new moves but not touching it's animations. It would be weird for Dark Samus to move exactly like Samus. I understand your complaint, but realistically if she wasn't an echo she wouldn't be in the game at all.

I don't think she needs a full moveset, but semi clones are easy to develop too. Even chrom is a bit different from Roy. A few smashes taken from her animations and gfx from her assist trophy would be very easy to do.

 

[User Name String]

Honestly it would be better is Dark Samus had Mii Gunner's Forward Smash

 

[Dixie Kong]

I really hope she is decloned via dlc updates! (And for free)

 

[SvartWolf]

While I agree that they could easily make DarkSamus super unique just giving her a couple of unique moves, i think that people are misunderstanding what Echoes are, why they aren't clones and why really they are less work than other characters, even if there is some good work put on them in the animations department.

Clones back in melee were a fast way to bring more unique characters and strengthen the roster offering different ways to play, while resuing stuff like animations assets. Changing the paraemeter of such moves isn't per se particulary demanding... BUT what is demanding is balancing those parameters and testing them along the whole cast. Still, in melee wasn't too excessive. and was within normal parameters.

Now though, with 67 unique characters and counting the amount of balance work, and testing work is massive, and each unique character slot is precious because of that. Unlike.. creating a new stage where every stage is completely indpenedent from each other and interactions between each stage doesn't need to be twinkered (although we do have stage morph now.. but i don't think is as intensively balanced as characters) each character you need to test and balance it with every other character...Just lets say that we need to do a very simple balance testing run for 1v1, with 2:30 minutes matches. assuming everything gets tried ONLY one time, Includding Ditto matches casue im terrible with math... that means that you need to run (let's see 67x67=4489/2 =2244.5 please someone who doesn't suck ath math could do the actual right calculation? XD) 2244 matches... making Dark samus different enough that she really needs to be accounted like a different character would rise that number exponentially, and im only accounting for 1v1 testing, not touching other modes nor balancing. Instead, tweaking animations and visuals certainly is a lot of work, but is an addition, not a multiplication.

This doesn't means that sakurai don't want to offer something exciting with echoes gamneplay wise... but is certain that they probably want to keep it as subtle as possible, or it could quickly go out of hand. In smash 4 at least, whenever they balanced lucina or dakpit, they usually just copied marth or pits balances (with the exception of damage tweaks for lucina) even if it could be very easy from a coding perspective to say... buff pits moves takingsome ending lag out , and buff Darkpit moves giving some extra damage instead, creating a divergence. They certainly could easily make Pit and Dark PIt 2 unique characters... but do they wanted to do it? more likely not.

With that said, it would been cool if at least Dark samus homing missiles would been replaced with phazon balls, evn if the change was just visual but overall, i'm pleased wit hthe ammount of work put in it as an echo.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

While I agree that they could easily make DarkSamus super unique just giving her a couple of unique moves, i think that people are misunderstanding what Echoes are, why they aren't clones and why really they are less work than other characters, even if there is some good work put on them in the animations department.

Why does chrom have a different move then for his up b?

 

[SvartWolf]

Why does chrom have a different move then for his up b?

for the same reason dark samus have some differences in the missiles, bomb jump trajectories and a completely new roll. Sakurai want to spice echoes a little,, there is no doubt about it, but they certainly want to keep things very subtle. Also , if is true that chrom blade works as lucina blade, thats probably a way bigger difference than a different up b really gameplaywise the up b changes some stuff, but very little.. Dark samus new roll may be a very divergent factor too.

but those are things that they want to keep self contained, and if for example, samus forwards smash gets buffed in the future with less lag for example, dark samus forward smash will get buffed likewise. Is true that still we don't have enough data, but if we take smash 4 as an example, this is teh case, and thats why they can be waaay more liberal at adding echoes, than adding completely unique characters.

 

[Diem]

There were some arguments prior to the confirmation about how Dark Samus wouldn't work as an Echo because her animations and moveset should be more unique. The animation work is probably better than any Echo so far, so that's a privilege, and many people who had doubts have come around due to how good she looks, but others are still liable to be disappointed by the moveset. But that's not what matters most. Dark Samus could have a totally unique moveset, but if she's not smooth or fun to play, then what's the point? There's a Dark Samus mod in Brawl that I've seen with a unique moveset, but it looks janky with rough animations, bad modelling, and stiff moves. It's a nice novelty, but I imagine playing it for an extended period of time would just make me wish that the character was as smooth as the others more than anything.

Dark Samus's presentation in Ultimate is better than any other Echo Fighter we've seen, and she's programmed by Sakurai and team, so she's going to be just as smooth and fun as any other character. Whether or not she has her own moves, it'll feel good to play, instead of having her own moves and feeling awful. That's what matters most at the end of the day.

When I voted in the ballot for Dark Samus, I said something along the lines of "Her Assist Trophy already shows that she could be a fun unique fighter." This was back when Sakurai had shot down Ridley hard, so I figured if Metroid was to get any new full rep, it would be Dark Samus. But since we finally got Ridley, I didn't expect Dark Samus to be a full character, because that'd go beyond reasonable expectations for Metroid representation. I still didn't fully expect Dark Samus even with all the evidence, because it just seemed too late for the character to make it into the series (today is the 11th anniversary of the character's last appearance).

However, will Dark Samus appear in future games? It'll depend on fan demand, of which there's unlikely to be a whole lot. There wasn't that much for her in the first place, hence her role as an Echo Fighter. Ridley's likely never going to go away, but the next Smash game is going to be cutting most of the roster and just going with the bare essentials so that they can have more newcomers. Echo Fighters in general probably won't make the cut.

Dark Samus at least has her foot in the door, though, which is more than most characters can say. Where the future takes us, we don't know. Even if Ultimate is the only game she's in, I'm just satisfied she made it into the best one.

Why does chrom have a different move then for his up b?

Because he could borrow it easily from Ike so it didn't require that much extra work. It wasn't like they gave him a unique move of his own, they just copied it from another character just as they copied everything else from Roy.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

for the same reason dark samus have some differences in the missiles, bomb jump trajectories and a completely new roll. Sakurai want to spice echoes a little,, there is no doubt about it, but they certainly want to keep things very subtle. Also , if is true that chrom blade works as lucina blade, thats probably a way bigger difference than a different up b really gameplaywise the up b changes some stuff, but very little.. Dark samus new roll may be a very divergent factor too.

but those are things that they want to keep self contained, and if for example, samus forwards smash gets buffed in the future with less lag for example, dark samus forward smash will get buffed likewise. Is true that still we don't have enough data, but if we take smash 4 as an example, this is teh case, and thats why they can be waaay more liberal at adding echoes, than adding completely unique characters.

which is why giving dark samus slightly different smashes would have been perfect. f smash and up smash would look exactly the same, except scatter shot phazon would come out of her canon. down smash would be the only significantly different one where shed bunch the ground and phazon tenticles would pop up from the ground instead of the sweep kick. Realllyyyyyy simple stuff. The new down smash could even have the same hitboxes and similar frame data. Its really a disappointment that those 3 smashes couldnt have been visually made different

Because he could borrow it easily from Ike so it didn't require that much extra work. It wasn't like they gave him a unique move of his own, they just copied it from another character just as they copied everything else from Roy.

ya and what im suggesting for dark samus would be easy too since the smash 4 assist trophy already had everything needed.

 

[Diem]

which is why giving dark samus slightly different smashes would have been perfect. f smash and up smash would look exactly the same, except scatter shot phazon would come out of her canon. down smash would be the only significantly different one where shed bunch the ground and phazon tenticles would pop up from the ground instead of the sweep kick. Realllyyyyyy simple stuff. The new down smash could even have the same hitboxes and similar frame data. Its really a disappointment that those 3 smashes couldnt have been visually made different

ya and what im suggesting for dark samus would be easy too since the smash 4 assist trophy already had everything needed.

The moves existed for the Assist Trophy, but they were balanced to be moves for an Assist Trophy, not moves for a playable character. They were much more powerful than any normal character's moves, so it's not possible to just copy them. They'd need to be rebalanced and reworked, which would require more work than even the most distinct clone character. And that's not counting whatever other work might go into converting those moves to be usable by a player. Little Mac was an Assist Trophy in Brawl, but making him into a playable character basically required him to be rebuilt from the ground-up.

The point of Echo Fighters is that they require minimal balancing and tweaking, since their moves and attributes are just copied from another character. The issue with every newcomer is that they have to be balanced against the rest of the cast, which for Ultimate is over 60 characters, so each new character is more challenging than the next. Dark Samus, despite her huge potential, is not worth that work right now, since she's not as popular as the likes of Inkling, Ridley, Simon, or King K. Rool. But she got better animation work than any other Echo Fighter, which I'd say is the best consolation possible.

Ike's Up-B is a move already balanced and programmed for a playable character, so no extra balancing or tweaking was necessary.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Oh no doubt Dark Samus could have been unique/semi-echo

I mean you all know what down B could/should have been.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Oh no doubt Dark Samus could have been unique/semi-echo

I mean you all know what down B could/should have been.

What? Lol

The moves existed for the Assist Trophy, but they were balanced to be moves for an Assist Trophy, not moves for a playable character. They were much more powerful than any normal character's moves, so it's not possible to just copy them. They'd need to be rebalanced and reworked, which would require more work than even the most distinct clone character. And that's not counting whatever other work might go into converting those moves to be usable by a player. Little Mac was an Assist Trophy in Brawl, but making him into a playable character basically required him to be rebuilt from the ground-up.

The point of Echo Fighters is that they require minimal balancing and tweaking, since their moves and attributes are just copied from another character. The issue with every newcomer is that they have to be balanced against the rest of the cast, which for Ultimate is over 60 characters, so each new character is more challenging than the next. Dark Samus, despite her huge potential, is not worth that work right now, since she's not as popular as the likes of Inkling, Ridley, Simon, or King K. Rool. But she got better animation work than any other Echo Fighter, which I'd say is the best consolation possible.

Ike's Up-B is a move already balanced and programmed for a playable character, so no extra balancing or tweaking was necessary.

Dude, balancing what I'm suggesting is not any work. 99 percent of what I'm suggesting is visual. Up smash wouldn't even change, except phazon would come out instead of fire, f smash would look the same as it does now, except it would have a little bit more range cause phazon bullets would shoot out, so you'd just need to make a sweet spot up close with the far away shots possibly even being flinchless. Down smash would have the same hitboxes as her sweep kick, with slightly different frame data, and the hitboxes on either side would show up at the same time since the phazon tenticles shoot up at the same time, rather than different times because of her sweep kicks nature. I've done this alot with brawl modding. Something like this is not hard to balance

Edit: I'm not suggesting we take the assist trophies hit boxes, that would be absurd. I'm talking about the animations and visuals. Altering hitboxes is the easiest thing after that. They'd mostly make things match with samus' smash attacks, just slightly altered to match how the new animations and the effects are reacting

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

What? Lol

Does this answer it?

And plus it reflects bullets I saw that on all the Dark Samus fights in Metroid prime

 

[Idon]

A DSmash I was really hoping for had Samus not been an echo was the move where she splits into 2 and shoots yellow laserbeams in a circle.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Does this answer it?

And plus it reflects bullets I saw that on all the Dark Samus fights in Metroid prime

oh ya, id make this down smash, but much less grand. A small version of this, and less powerful, as i suggested in my above post.

 

[smashingDoug]

I’m fine with her as an echo, I just wish they went with her more unique prime 2 look

 

[Fell God]

Funny enough, some of her animations as an assist trophy seem to be based on animations that Samus uses

 

[CrusherMania1592]

I'd say for now, no. As much as I'd like for her to be semi or unique, I think it's best she sticks with being a clone until later down the Smash road where Dark Samus can slowly adapt to having her own moves overtime. Luigi, Lucas, Roy, and Ganondorf all did it so I don't see how it won't happen with DS.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I'd say for now, no. As much as I'd like for her to be semi or unique, I think it's best she sticks with being a clone until later down the Smash road where Dark Samus can slowly adapt to having her own moves overtime. Luigi, Lucas, Roy, and Ganondorf all did it so I don't see how it won't happen with DS.

The problem is, the smash road might be coming to an end. It could be getting a reboot. If sakurai keeps this engine and builds off it again for another sequel, id be really surprised.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

The problem is, the smash road might be coming to an end. It could be getting a reboot. If sakurai keeps this engine and builds off it again for another sequel, id be really surprised.

I'll be just as surprised as you would if the roster remains what it is currently

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I'll be just as surprised as you would if the roster remains what it is currently

you think echos would receive updated movesets??

 

[Deleted member]

I was always advocating for Dark Samus to be a semi-clone, and while it's great she's in the game, I think the concept of Sakurai's echo fighters are both a good and bad thing.

Good, because like in Melee, it is allowing certain characters to get in the game that otherwise wouldn't have a huge chance.

Bad because these echoes are so closely tied to their base character that they aren't even given their own number or slot on the CSS, technically (because you can combine them). And this is because Sakurai wants them to be similar enough to their base character that there doesn't need to be much thought into balancing or whatnot. It's almost like he's predestining them to remain clones forever. Although....Sakurai has changed his mind several times later on so we'll see.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I was always advocating for Dark Samus to be a semi-clone, and while it's great she's in the game, I think the concept of Sakurai's echo fighters are both a good and bad thing.

Good, because like in Melee, it is allowing certain characters to get in the game that otherwise wouldn't have a huge chance.

Bad because these echoes are so closely tied to their base character that they aren't even given their own number or slot on the CSS, technically (because you can combine them). And this is because Sakurai wants them to be similar enough to their base character that there doesn't need to be much thought into balancing or whatnot. It's almost like he's predestining them to remain clones forever. Although....Sakurai has changed his mind several times later on so we'll see.

but even chrom has a different up b compared to roy. so its kinda weird how echos work. i dont fully get it

 

[Deleted member]

but even chrom has a different up b compared to roy. so its kinda weird how echos work. i dont fully get it

yeah...but it's one move and doesn't really change too much. It's not like his up B was replaced with something akin to Villager's up B which would be drastically different from Blazer. So it shouldn't separate the play style too much.

Think of the custom moves from Sm4sh...Kirby had one for Final Cutter that only sent him cutting upward (I really like it too). So Chrom's Aether is kinda the opposite, and like a custom move, you know? Nothing drastic.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

yeah...but it's one move and doesn't really change too much. It's not like his up B was replaced with something akin to Villager's up B which would be drastically different from Blazer. So it shouldn't separate the play style too much.

Think of the custom moves from Sm4sh...Kirby had one for Final Cutter that only sent him cutting upward (I really like it too). So Chrom's Aether is kinda the opposite, and like a custom move, you know? Nothing drastic.

Well for dark samus all they needed to do was take her animations and effects from the assist trophy and then make the hitboxes more similar to samus' rather than the hitboxes for the assist.

 

[CardiganBoy]

I’m just happy she’s in to be honest, yes the potential for a unique moveset is there, but an Echo is the only way she could ever make it in.