Dair to Dtilt Lock: %s and Notes

Jamurai

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Jamurai92
#1
Dtilt locking is a very useful way to rack up big damage, which is important given our low damage per hit in general. Once they're locked, it's a perfect time to use Tornado, which deals a cool 20%+ and is a great way to rack up damage without staling Shuttle Loop. Tornado doesn't have many setups into it, so this is a great opportunity when it happens.

There is an overlap period between when Dair starts to cause knockdown and when Dtilt still locks characters instead of forcing them back up. This period is an average about 10% in size, but this widens with rage. Rage significantly lowers the % at which Dair causes knockdown, by up to 20% earlier with maximum rage, giving a 30%+ window (I may test this thoroughly for each character when I have my Wii U back; this has only been tested with Mario so far). As one gets towards the higher limit, you can only use Dtilt once or twice, otherwise the lock will be broken when you drive the % too high.

Dair can be used out of shield, from a ledge jump, or simply used out of short or full hop on stage as a get out plan, for example to cover a whiffed dash attack. This gives this setup some versatility. It has a fairly horizontal knockback angle which can make it difficult to tech if not expected. MK can fastfall after the Dair and, if they fail to tech, lock them with a quick Dtilt. This is not really a primary way to damage rack, but more something to bear in mind (a mix-up).

No-rage %s were done in 3DS training mode (ie. moves were always fresh). %s at which this works seem to vary based primarily on character weight. The range also seems to slightly increase when dealing with heavier characters. Also, I don't currently have Bayonetta but I will probably buy her at some point soon and get details for her.


. Max. rage Dair knockdown No rage Dair knockdown Dtilt lock limit
:4bayonetta: . . .
:4bowser: . 53% 66%
:4bowserjr: . 46% 59%
:4falcon: . 46% 57%
:4charizard: . 49% 62%
:4cloud: . 45% 56%
:4cloud:(LB) . . .
:4corrin: . 45% 55%
:4diddy: . 43% 54%
:4dk: . 51% 64%
:4drmario: . 45% 55%
:4duckhunt: . 43% 53%
:4falco: . 40% 50%
:4fox: . 40% 49%
:4ganondorf: . 48% 61%
:4greninja: . 44% 54%
:4myfriends: . 47% 58%
:4jigglypuff: . 37% 45%
:4dedede: . 50% 63%
:4kirby: . 40% 49%
:4link: . 46% 57%
:4littlemac: . 40% 50%
:4lucario: . 45% 56%
:4lucas: . 44% 54%
:4luigi: . 44% 55%
:4mario: 26% 45% 55%
:4marth::4lucina: . 43% 53%
:4megaman: . 46% 57%
:4metaknight: . 40% 49%
:4mewtwo: . 38% 47%
:4gaw: . 39% 48%
:4ness: . 44% 54%
:4olimar: . 40% 49%
:4pacman: . 44% 54%
:4palutena: . 43% 53%
:4peach: . 42% 52%
:4pikachu: . 40% 49%
:4pit::4darkpit: . 44% 55%
:4rob: . 47% 58%
:4robinm: . 44% 54%
:rosalina: . 39% 48%
:4feroy: . 44% 54%
:4ryu: . 46% 57%
:4samus: . 47% 59%
:4sheik: . 40% 50%
:4shulk:(No MA) . 46% 57%
:4sonic: . 44% 54%
:4tlink: . 43% 54%
:4villager: . 44% 55%
:4wario: . 47% 58%
:4wiifit: . 44% 55%
:4yoshi: . 46% 57%
:4zelda: . 41% 51%
:4zss: . 40% 49%
 
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AyeYoDeji

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#2
Question for clarification: is the % you put under lock limit the very last % that dtilt will lock on that character?
 

Jamurai

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#3
Yes. At that %, you can Dair them and Dtilt once to lock. If you Dtilt twice, they will stand back up. If they are 1% higher, Dair will knock them down but one Dtilt will force them back up.

* So technically the Dtilt lock limit is 6% later than what is listed, but the %s are for Dair > Dtilt so yeah.
 
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Clockzarb

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Oct 20, 2014
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#4
Thanks Jamurai for this.

So I tried this myself in training mode for a while and got a 41-51 for Bayonetta.

Also what happened here ? https://www.twitch.tv/ligasmashdf/v/57040007?t=3h23m40s
It's seems like Bedgar was in range for Dtilt lock but Leo was too late on his lock ? Because Bedgar managed to roll out it after the Dtilt. (Then Leo still manage to get the kill because of the position but it shouldnt have happened if Bedgar would have reacted better to it. And he dies because of bad/no DI).

I don't know much about Dtilt lock. Can you finish a Dtilt lock with a charged fsmash for the kill with rage ? Without rage it seems impossible to kill with opponent's DI, but with rage it looks like it could be possible. Or does the Dtilt stop locking earlier with rage ? Thanks
 

Jamurai

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Jamurai92
#5
Thanks Jamurai for this.

So I tried this myself in training mode for a while and got a 41-51 for Bayonetta.

Also what happened here ? https://www.twitch.tv/ligasmashdf/v/57040007?t=3h23m40s
It's seems like Bedgar was in range for Dtilt lock but Leo was too late on his lock ? Because Bedgar managed to roll out it after the Dtilt. (Then Leo still manage to get the kill because of the position but it shouldnt have happened if Bedgar would have reacted better to it. And he dies because of bad/no DI).

I don't know much about Dtilt lock. Can you finish a Dtilt lock with a charged fsmash for the kill with rage ? Without rage it seems impossible to kill with opponent's DI, but with rage it looks like it could be possible. Or does the Dtilt stop locking earlier with rage ? Thanks
Leo did it fine in that example. He only did one Dtilt intentionally, another would have pushed her off the edge which would be a wasted punish (and, as it turned out, stock). You have to Dtilt before they reset to their lying position to start and to continue locks, otherwise they can use a getup option.

Rage doesn't affect the Dtilt lock limit, only the start point when Dair knocks down. Any decent player should be able to DI Fsmash properly which means even at max rage it's unlikely you'll be able to get a kill, especially as the lighter a character is, the earlier their Dtilt lock limit is. Maybe if you're at the edge of Duck Hunt with 150% rage or something. Could be worth testing I guess.

Leo likes getting opponents offstage and tagging on safe damage by punishing them offstage and on their ledge getup, which I'm guessing is why he opted for Fsmash there; I doubt he expected it to kill as he has no rage... not sure though.
 

Clockzarb

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#6
Thanks for the clarification.

Town and city is actually the standard stage with the blast zone the closest to the edge (according to http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-stage-blast-zone-data.395357/ ). I don't really know how much rage affects horizontal knockback so maybe this could be a kill confirm if they don't tech and if you have rage ? I'll might test it when my friend will be available to be the DI-dummy.
 

Clockzarb

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Oct 20, 2014
Messages
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#7
After doing some testing with rage, uncharged fresh Fsmash kills Bayonetta at 44% with optimal DI and MK at max rage (150%) from the ledge on T&C. Dtilt stop locking at 57% (so bayonetta could be at 62% when taking the fsmash).
This would mean that you could get a Dair -> Dtilt lock -> Fsmash kill from 33% (maybe a bit earlier) to 51% on bayonetta on T&C from the ledge with max rage (bayo starts tumbling from MK's dair at 24% when MK has max rage).
Those were done in 'real' mode, with suicide and stuff to keep moves fresh.

So this could definitely be a kill confirm if they miss their tech in some situations. Especially knowing that you can actually charge a bit fsmash from a lock, you could kill even earlier or with less rage.

I'm not a pro-labber but I tried my best to get this tested correctly, so these results should be accurate.

EDIT : the fsmash was sweetspotted

EDIT2 : Actually I think Dtilt stops locking earlier when MK has rage. I was trying to get the mentioned above kill confirm, it worked below 40 but at 40% bayo just didn't get locked anymore. Still testing it though.

EDIT3 : Yeah it really seems like with rage Dtilt stop locking earlier (somewhere around 43% on bayo, instead of 57% w/o rage). It makes sense since the locking ability of a move is related to his knockback. Sad :( I suggest you test Dtilt lock with rage again.
I stop labbing for today. Will maybe see that in more details tomorrow.
 
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