Custom Specials are BACK... so is controversy

WINRO

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So in the 11.1.2018 Direct a few things about the Mii's were revealed. The only information we really got were the options in the UI you have when creating a Mii Fighter.
Options include:
Name
Headgear
Outfit
Color
Special Moves
Voice
(I'm assuming the Mii is chosen beforehand, hopefully size isn't a factor)

The only thing I really care about here is the special moves. Mii Swordfighter was showcased in the direct and seems to have all of the same specials. We know that Mii Brawler has at least some different specials, and we still don't know much about Gunner. I advocate that all specials should be legal, and I honestly don't see many reasons why not. Here's how I see it
Positives (of keeping all customs legal):
Allows many different playstyles
More possibilities to develop the meta
Negatives:
Each set takes a bit more time because the player has to create the Mii Fighter
Size might be a factor, which may destroy the entire character's chance at legality all together (there are no guest Mii's on the Switch)

In my mind the fate of the Mii's is determined by the fact of size being a factor or not. What do you guys think?
 

Frihetsanka

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Suggestion: Before a set begins, players may choose to anounce one or multiple Miis that they might use in the set, maximum one of each type, and they have to announce the moveset before the set begins. This way we avoid situations where people change their movesets to counter picks (using two or three different Mii Brawlers in the same set, for instance). This would remove some of the issues with Miis while still giving them the option of using customs.

Alternatively, people may bring in Miis whenever in a set, but once they do they cannot pick another of the same type (so can't use 1313 Mii for game one and 2222 for game two, for instance). I think this is a better compromise than 1111 Miis again.
 

zferolie

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Yeah I saw custom moves were back, and was wondering how the community may work with this.

I assume if one fighter had different specials, they all do. Will they be as bad as in 4? who knows. Hopefully the mii fighters got buffed, and all the moves are good, it just will they be allowed in the tourny scene?

I would hope they would, and maybe allow people to quickly pick their moves, or before hand the tourny heads make mii fighters with each combination... though that may be a lot... am I right that there are 24 combinations?
 

AEMehr

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there are guest miis on the switch
there's no reason to call anything banned until something provides a reason to actually be banned.

since mii fighters are the only characters to have custom moves, they should be treated as they always should've been, their unique mechanic.

no mii fighter has been shown to have alternate sizes, so i'm going to go out on a limb and say that mechanic was likely scrapped.
 

zferolie

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there are guest miis on the switch
there's no reason to call anything banned until something provides a reason to actually be banned.

since mii fighters are the only characters to have custom moves, they should be treated as they always should've been, their unique mechanic.

no mii fighter has been shown to have alternate sizes, so i'm going to go out on a limb and say that mechanic was likely scrapped.
I agree, and all we can tell is that the moves are different, nothing else. this should allow mii's to be viable, as different sizes and weights aren't a factor anymore.

Its just how will Tournaments allow the changing of specials? Pre match? Pre round you get to quickly make a mii fighter of each type with the moves you like? That seems likely.
 

AEMehr

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I agree, and all we can tell is that the moves are different, nothing else. this should allow mii's to be viable, as different sizes and weights aren't a factor anymore.

Its just how will Tournaments allow the changing of specials? Pre match? Pre round you get to quickly make a mii fighter of each type with the moves you like? That seems likely.
Tournaments have never allowed counterpicking specials midset, so I would imagine the rule would continue.
 

WINRO

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there are guest miis on the switch
there's no reason to call anything banned until something provides a reason to actually be banned.

since mii fighters are the only characters to have custom moves, they should be treated as they always should've been, their unique mechanic.

no mii fighter has been shown to have alternate sizes, so i'm going to go out on a limb and say that mechanic was likely scrapped.
Oops, my memory has deceived me.
 

tskidless

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I honestly didn't expect custom moves to return but they are. I'm sure people will just use guest Miis in tournaments at worst and maybe allow customs. I'll have to be tested first.

One thing I can say is that I am happy that you can use them online now which means that I'll probably pick up Swordfighter since I can now practice online against other players with them.
 
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Rhynox

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I wish we'd gotten confirmation that miis can be used online. I feel like if you could use them in random online play their chances of being tourney viable would be a lot better. Another thing I noticed is the speed stat seems to be gone. All the spirits only have an attack and defense stat. So maybe size won't factor in to actual stats
 

tskidless

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They can be used online since they were on the character select screen when the direct was talking about Online. I think it is interesting that they removed the ability to go Random however.
 

The Merc

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Tournaments have never allowed counterpicking specials midset, so I would imagine the rule would continue.
Well what if they implmented a rule where any Mii mains had to submit what moveset set they have for their character an they must stick with that moveset for the rest of the tournament

:135:
 

Jexulus

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The primary issue wasn't necessarily the custom moves, but rather custom moves in combination with height/weight differences that could only be made outside the main app. From the looks of it, that's been removed in favor of streamlined proportions. IF that's the case, Mii Fighters can be built from scratch in their entirety in-game and that solves that issue. Custom moves look very easy to set as well, so hopefully these can be built on the fly.
 

Count Bleck

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I havent seen heads or tails of the dreaded helicopter kick that makes makes ZeRo laugh every time it lands, but I did noticee a new Rising Uppercut attacjk that looks like Roy's Up B. Maybe the move is gone?
 

Fell God

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This is such pointless controversy, just let Miis be Miis...they have different special sets, not a big deal
 

Jexulus

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This is such pointless controversy, just let Miis be Miis...they have different special sets, not a big deal
It's a topic worth discussing, because Miis in Smash 4 were poorly implemented and designed thanks to height/weight sliders outside the game itself having an effect on the character and other factors that made them a pain to set up consistently for tournaments. It was a pain for TOs because of these factors, and it was a pain for players because they had to memorize which special moves were being used based on the Mii's number, exacerbated by the Miis' relative rarity in competitive play and not having to do this for any other character. Some competitors do this for a living, and the wild inconsistencies with Mii Fighters made them a pain to deal with.

Now that many of these factors have been dealt with and the variance has been reduced to just what special moves they have, not to mention Mii Fighters might actually be good outside of their jank this time around, it's worth deliberating how to go about their use in competitive. Should players have to stick with one combination of special moves for just one round? A whole match? The whole tournament? These things are worth bringing up.

But something that definitely should not happen? Banning them outright because of their Smash 4 problems. This is not Smash 4 anymore. This is Smash Ultimate.
 

Frihetsanka

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Right now, it seems like most people agree that XXXX Miis (Guest size, if size differences are still a thing) should be legal. The main thing to discuss seems to be: Should Mii players have to announce their set in advance, or should they be able to adapt to the opponent and customize a set on the fly? Also, should they be able to switch between Miis sets (1313 Brawler game 1, 2242 Brawler game 2, etc) or should they be stuck with one moveset for the whole set?

Most people also seem to agree that Miis should be named after their custom moveset (so a Brawler with 3212 customs would be named 3212) in order to increase clarity and reduce confusion.

Still, whatever we choose I think it's good news for Mii players, being stuck with a single XXXX moveset for the whole set is still much, much better than being relegated to 1111 Miis.
 

Garo

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IMO switching between sets should be allowed. It's no different from counterpicking a character, except the opponent only has to adapt to max 4 different moves instead of a completely different character. I expect the opposition will bring up the same points as during Smash 4.
 

Fell God

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It's a topic worth discussing, because Miis in Smash 4 were poorly implemented and designed thanks to height/weight sliders outside the game itself having an effect on the character and other factors that made them a pain to set up consistently for tournaments. It was a pain for TOs because of these factors, and it was a pain for players because they had to memorize which special moves were being used based on the Mii's number, exacerbated by the Miis' relative rarity in competitive play and not having to do this for any other character. Some competitors do this for a living, and the wild inconsistencies with Mii Fighters made them a pain to deal with.

Now that many of these factors have been dealt with and the variance has been reduced to just what special moves they have, not to mention Mii Fighters might actually be good outside of their jank this time around, it's worth deliberating how to go about their use in competitive. Should players have to stick with one combination of special moves for just one round? A whole match? The whole tournament? These things are worth bringing up.

But something that definitely should not happen? Banning them outright because of their Smash 4 problems. This is not Smash 4 anymore. This is Smash Ultimate.
I mostly agree, but I really don't see the problem with switching special sets. As Garo brought up, it really isn't any different from picking a different character between matches (except for the fact that only the specials are changing, so really it's like playing Roy for game 1 and switching to Chrom game 2). We already have to adapt to nearly 80 playstyles, what's a handful more, right? But I still agree, we should leave Smash 4 out of Ultimate entirely, things that were problems then aren't now.
 

The Merc

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I mostly agree, but I really don't see the problem with switching special sets. As Garo brought up, it really isn't any different from picking a different character between matches (except for the fact that only the specials are changing, so really it's like playing Roy for game 1 and switching to Chrom game 2). We already have to adapt to nearly 80 playstyles, what's a handful more, right? But I still agree, we should leave Smash 4 out of Ultimate entirely, things that were problems then aren't now.
I think the main difference is that going from Roy to chrom on take s a couple of seconds since the character and moveset is already ready to choose. With Mii's on the other hand unless the alternative moveset is already made it, it means an extra couple of minutes digging through menus all just to potentially change one move. My not seem like much but it can all quick add up and just slow down a match

:135:
 

Fell God

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I think the main difference is that going from Roy to chrom on take s a couple of seconds since the character and moveset is already ready to choose. With Mii's on the other hand unless the alternative moveset is already made it, it means an extra couple of minutes digging through menus all just to potentially change one move. My not seem like much but it can all quick add up and just slow down a match

:135:
I thought they were all locked to certain sets, (1111, 2222, 3333) is that not the case?
 

The Merc

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I thought they were all locked to certain sets, (1111, 2222, 3333) is that not the case?
Wait was that confirmed? I still assumed they were like they were in Smash 4 (3 sets of moveset for each special that the player can choose)?

:135:
 

Fell God

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Wait was that confirmed? I still assumed they were like they were in Smash 4 (3 sets of moveset for each special that the player can choose)?

:135:
I don't think it was confirmed or anything, that's just the impression I got based on their blog post. Guess we'll have to wait. Or maybe the 3 people in the world who actually play as Mii Fighters already know.
 

tskidless

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I'm pretty sure that I've seen a video showing that a Mii's custom specials can be picked if they are customised. I do not know if the default Mii's are locked into 1111 or have different specials. If they don't then they will likely be locked into 1111 for most tournaments. It is also interesting that a custom Mii's face will be obscured by darkness on the intro.
 

Jexulus

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Screen Shot 2018-11-09 at 9.41.03 AM.png


We don't know if a default Mii pops up at 1111 once you've unlocked them, but you can indeed pick any combination of special moves.

Here's the thing about switching combinations mid-match, though. The reason why I'm personally in favor of one combination per match is because going all the way to this menu and all the way back as a counterpick is too abusable as a strategy to ice your opponent between rounds. This is a real problem, and one that popped up a lot during Smash 4's early life when a player would consult their coach after losing a match. This kind of thing steals momentum from the winner of the match and that sucks.

I guarantee you, if combinations were allowed to be made between rounds, this would be abused in tournaments until the point where'd they have to restrict it to only before a match.
 

The Merc

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I'm pretty sure that I've seen a video showing that a Mii's custom specials can be picked if they are customised. I do not know if the default Mii's are locked into 1111 or have different specials. If they don't then they will likely be locked into 1111 for most tournaments. It is also interesting that a custom Mii's face will be obscured by darkness on the intro.
I does seem that the default mii on CSS is stuck to 1111. But I really hope that doesn't make the Smash community stubborn say that should mean Mii's can't use customs. At least all the Mii mains to use one custom Mii fighter

:135:
 

Jexulus

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That's a relief, but I'm honestly not going to have peace of mind until there's absolute confirmation that the there's a constant height/weight for Mii Fighters.
 

FanGoH

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I personally would love to see Miis used in competitive, I loved the idea since 4, but they don't feel special, especially since they are pretty bad.

I hope Ultimate will give them a chance
 

Frihetsanka

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Miis have been confirmed to only have one size now, someone who got an "early copy" tested various sizes and they all turned out to be the same, it seems. So no need to talk about "Guest Size" anymore, any Mii should be fine now!
 
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