Custom controllers/sticks at tournaments?

[Falcoty]

If we're using sports analogies, I consider button layout modifications to be more like grip tape or cleats than steroids.

Cactuar does make a good point that using a first party GC controller is a 100% standard in the community. But I think we should allow that the controller itself isn't perfect (while it obviously is usable for most players), people should be able to experiment with alternative layouts. I think we should at least give customization a chance.

 

[Haxxy]

I think the issue is that not every player would have access to a Smash-optimized stick, and so it's not fair for some to be fortunate while others are left out. So, if someone was to design a Smash stick and sell it on an open market, then it should be legal in my opinion.

That being said, I think the general problem with the Gamecube controller is that it wasn't designed for Smash; it was designed to be comfortable, portable, and balanced for every single Gamecube game. Arcade sticks, on the other hand, are designed specifically for fighting games. Anyway, I say it's been ten freakin' years (wow, ten years of Melee!) and I'll be damned if we can't push this game to the limit in every possible way. If there's anything that makes us one step closer to the limit, it's a new stick design. Plus, it would keep the community dynamic and possibly even introduce some new meta-game.

 

[Haxxy]

I threw together my own Smash stick mockup:

A little silly? Yes. The idea is that I wanted to keep the left side of the standard controller intact while maintaining a familiar layout on the right side. The improvement is that everything is basically already under your fingers. Any combination of two buttons can be pressed in one-frame succession (except for two consecutive C buttons, which is never performed anyway). I replaced the C stick with C buttons because the thumb can be placed over the desired button before executing the attack, eliminating the potential 1-2 frame inconsistency in directing a stick. As for the left side, I opted to use a thumb stick rather than a joystick because I feel it fares better for more erratic 360-degree motion, especially straight up and down. I was also trying to stay realistic; an analog joystick is not only difficult to come across, but barely feasible to wire up for Gamecube. Overall, I feel this design would retain the comfort and familiarity of the original controller while greatly improving upon button positioning.

 

[EPsilon933]

If we're using sports analogies, I consider button layout modifications to be more like grip tape or cleats than steroids.

What I was thinking

 

[Massive]

A little silly? Yes. The idea is that I wanted to keep the left side of the standard controller intact while maintaining a familiar layout on the right side. The improvement is that everything is basically already under your fingers. Any combination of two buttons can be pressed in one-frame succession (except for two consecutive C buttons, which is never performed anyway). I replaced the C stick with C buttons because the thumb can be placed over the desired button before executing the attack, eliminating the potential 1-2 frame inconsistency in directing a stick. As for the left side, I opted to use a thumb stick rather than a joystick because I feel it fares better for more erratic 360-degree motion, especially straight up and down. I was also trying to stay realistic; Overall, I feel this design would retain the comfort and familiarity of the original controller while greatly improving upon button positioning.

This reminds me a bit of this thing.

I could see your setup being pretty unpleasant for reverse direction aerials (jumping forward with bair, backwards with fair, etc) due to the placement of the jump button.
Additionally, I know a lot of people have serous trouble doing anything dextrous with their last two fingers (especially if they're left-handed), so that could be an issue as well.

an analog joystick is not only difficult to come across, but barely feasible to wire up for Gamecube.

They're surprisingly easy to find, actually. The flight simulation community has kept them around and remarkably cheap. Wiring them up isn't much more difficult than replacing a joystick on a normal Gamecube controller, you would just need to check the resistance on the original analog stick potentiometers on the controller board and match it with the replacement stick.

 

[Strong Badam]

This all day, baby!

 

[wootayng]

never seen no **** like this son ......

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/gamecubecontroller.jpg/

 

[Cactuar]

I disagree with it being like grip tape or cleats. You are effectively changing the availability of your inputs from thumb (or thumb+index for claw grips) and index for z, to having a finger hovering over every possible button, removing any travel time for your hand and allowing you to input whatever sequence with very little chance for error. That is more like giving a receiver 2 extra arms, for extra catching power.



Doing my cut mod on buttons or my lubrication trick on slides is more similar to grip tape and cleats.

Edit: In case anyone isn't aware of this, I mod the **** out of my controllers. I'm not "anti-mod" in any way. I think this just goes a little too far when it comes to enhancing control.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think of it more like having a magic racket that can extend to hit a shot you'd otherwise miss. Or rocket boots. But those don't exist in real life... yet.

 

[Massive]

I think of it more like having a magic racket that can extend to hit a shot you'd otherwise miss. Or rocket boots. But those don't exist in real life... yet.

I'd say it's more like a racket that weighed less without compromising strength and reduced the impact on your wrist and elbow joints.

What you describe would be a controller that goes ahead and gives you a wavedash button, or has separate "1-frame-only" inputs (aka programmable macros).

The controller wouldn't grant you the ability to do something you couldn't normally, it would simply reduce the amount of strain involved in doing it.

 

[Haxxy]

allowing you to input whatever sequence with very little chance for error. That is more like giving a receiver 2 extra arms, for extra catching power.

I don't like the sports analogies because this isn't a sport of physical competition. Smash is a mental game with some physical tech skill involved. The player shouldn't be making input errors for the sole reason that the controller sucks. Likewise, the player shouldn't have to learn to overcome the hurdles of a sucky controller that wasn't designed for the game he/she is playing.

Again, this is no different from playing Street Fighter with a pad vs. a fight stick, and the only issue here is mass availability.

 

[Cactuar]

It's not allowing you to do something you can't without a ton of practice, it's allowing you to do it with minimal practice.

Like a sh instant bair or fair using cstick so that you can hold the opposite direction.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

The problem with that control design is that you have to either hold the whole dang thing with your left hand or put it down on a surface and have it tiled sideways and squish your fingers.

 

[Haxxy]

It's not allowing you to do something you can't without a ton of practice, it's allowing you to do it with minimal practice.

You're right by that. If you feel that all fast-as-possible inputs are already fully achievable with a GCN controller, then your opinion makes sense to me and I respect it. I care more about using a new controller design to open new doors rather than simplify what's already been established.

 

[Cactuar]

I think I've stated that the design of the gamecube controller slows us down significantly. I think it is possible to do pretty much anything with it with practice and dedication, but I also don't like that it serves as such a barrier to certain aspects of play. Unfortunately, from a fairness point of view, I don't think it is acceptable to allow custom sticks for this game as there is a universal standard, and with the knowledge that a custom stick would provide such an advantage over the standard.

 

[TheDekuNut]

in the future a custom fight stick will be made and approved for tournament. the guy that uses it will get first and then people will say he had an unfair advantage even though it was approved they'd try to take it away or some bs.


Oscar Pistorius

they thought this was fair. then decided it wasn't. cause he was really fast.
the guy runs on springs.

 

[Haxxy]

So, the issue is standardization. If we get a group of people to get together, design a custom stick, and start manufacturing it for the public, then we'd have a potential standard-setter, would we not?

 

[Cactuar]

If you produce it in the thousands, and offer it at a price of 30 dollars or less, it would be possible to consider it.

Good luck.

Until then, it falls under the ban-able category of controller modding.

 

[Massive]

If you produce it in the thousands, and offer it at a price of 30 dollars or less, it would be possible to consider it.

Good luck.

Until then, it falls under the ban-able category of controller modding.

 

[Cactuar]

Lol. Too bad there is a difference between opinion, expert opinion, and cactus opinion.

**

 

[LLDL]

I doubt there would be more than a couple hundred players who would even use a fight stick over their controller anyway. Since it pertains to such a small percentage of people who would be playing the game, it should be allowed.

 

[Cactuar]

"I doubt there would be more than a couple hundred players who would even use steroids over naturally training anyway. Since it pertains to such a small percentage of people who would be playing the game, it should be allowed."

Problem?

Edit: Obligatory cheerleader troll:

**




Afternote: I would probably be one of the first people to use a stick setup if I could justify it being legal. If I'm not mistaken, I think the twins from Mexico use the gamecube controller as if it is a fighter stick, holding the controller on their leg and hovering their right hand over the buttons. I play like that once in a while just for funsies, and I would love that kind of feel with a full rig, but it just isn't something I could justify in a competitive setting.

If someone were to have a dispute after losing to a player using a stick vs a controller, in this community in particular due to its 100% controller standard, resolving it would be hugely problematic.

 

[Varist]

I think the biggest problem with introducing a stick would be the inaccessibility. Basically, the reason most people think a version of melee modded with like, new Green Greens etc. would fail is because it's an exclusive, bothersome kind of thing to go through the trouble of getting.

It's really about exclusivity. Most people who start playing competitively remember playing the game in their childhood, because of how ridiculously popular this game was when it came out. They start wanting to get good, and go through the trouble of learning all the ATs and changing up which stages they play on. Then they go to a tournament and half the people there aren't even using the GC controller.

The player thinks that the time he'd spent playing the game as a kid/teen was irrelevant and that until he gets a hold of one of these personalized controllers his play will be inferior. The level of exclusivity the game presents to newer players is increased when they also have to look through threads about what kinds of controllers to pick up, what the pros use, what they should look for as a lefty, etc etc.

I threw together my own Smash stick mockup:

I think it's a little hard to have your thumb resting on Z by default, the hand shouldn't be angled that way. Z should be near the c-buttons, in a place where the thumb can easily and quickly reach to Z while resting in the center of the c-buttons.

Furthermore, for a pad, it would be easier to have your hand resting in a neutral position and build the controller around it, so the c-buttons should be angled more diagonally.

B, A, X, R is your current finger set-up.
Massive mentioned that the last two fingers are less dextrous than the first two, which is absolutely true, so I think a pad would need to be re-ordered.

I recommend X, R, B, A.
X is the first priority, because the jump button is used far more frequently than any of the other three. R second, because it's your powershield/L-cancel button. Because L is on the trigger, it must be saved for light shielding. B third, simply because A is only used for jabs (which feels like a "light" movement itself, so suited to a lighter, weaker finger), tilts, shield grabbing and if your character has a tether, nair.

I came up with this:

 

[Falcoty]

I don't think steroids are comparable to game pads because steroids actually change your physiology, and accessories like cleats or tape only give you external tools. The steroids equivalent in e-sports would be aderall or some kind of neurological enhancer lol

 

[Cactuar]

I think KirbyKaze's example was actually the closest. It is essentially like having a corked bat.

 

[Falcoty]

I'd say more like an aluminum bat. Macro's would be corked bats

 

[Devil Ray]

i agree with cactuar's point of view, but this is such a non-issue it wouldn't matter in tourny. i don't think anyone would care until the custom stick player would win something or a top player started using a custom stick

 

[_Xanatos_]

xbox 360 controller would be boss. just like bumper jumper in halo 3

 

[Mr Postman]

The controller needs more glitter!
then I would buy it

 

[Myztek]

I think it's a stubborn mentality to be so opposed to something that could potentially progress our game even further.

If a player were to place really well using a FightStick of some sort, and other players took note of the potential advantage, I'm sure the other players would go out of their way to either acquire or build a stick for themselves.

Just takes one to get the snowball rolling.

If someone loves the game enough to create a pad/stick to play it, why not let them use it?

 

[Puffball of joy]

You've separated the B button extremely far from the X and Y buttons. How would I do multishines on that lol.

Multishines are for stupid people anyway. This is Haxxy, I forgot the info to that account, so, I made this one. I'm still thinking about doing this with say, an xbox 360 controller shell. It would be alot easier than a fighting stick, because I'm more used to an xbox controller, and, it would be alot easier on the hands. It would be alot easier for JPuff, as most of her moves are bairs anyways. I'm still thinking about it. If you have any really hectic easy ideas, PM me or find me on xbox. GT: OGLaze RaVeeeee

 

[Bones0]

Nice bump, bro. Multishines are for stupid people? lol ignorance.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Lol, what the hell? Puffball, do you seriously have any reason to pose as me? Haxxy was my former tag, and I'd never say something so incompetent and inconsiderate. Cool story, bro.

p.s. No, you actually made that account in 2010, a good 1.5 years before you "forgot the info".

 

[KrIsP!]

Imagine having a spread-out fighting stick where you hit jump with a middle or ring finger and a C button with your thumb. You can position your thumb on the correct button before you initiate the attack.

Wouldn't that ruin SDI? I don't think anyone would care because while you make it easier to do certain things your making it impossible to do others.

Anyways, I think you can do whatever you want so long as your not doing anything that effects the game, only your way of playing it. Turbos, no. Shield button on y, why the **** not? (<Still not sure if that would actually be legal though. I don't see why not.)

 

[Bones0]

How would that affect SDI at all? You can only SDI with the control stick.

 

[ryuu seika]

Imagine having a spread-out fighting stick where you hit jump with a middle or ring finger and a C button with your thumb. You can position your thumb on the correct button before you initiate the attack.

That sounds awkward. Personally, I just go straight from hitting Y with my thumb tip to Csmashing in whatever direction with my knuckle (Uair is done with control stick). Only one digit required.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Wiring them up isn't much more difficult than replacing a joystick on a normal Gamecube controller, you would just need to check the resistance on the original analog stick potentiometers on the controller board and match it with the replacement stick.

Massive, I think you forget that half of this community probably doesn't understand what a potentiometer is, and checking resistances requires a multimeter and some understanding of the circuitry of both the gamecube controller and the analog stick you're taking it from. That's some serious technical work, and it's not going to be feasible financially

 

[Spyro]

Afternote: I would probably be one of the first people to use a stick setup if I could justify it being legal. If I'm not mistaken, I think the twins from Mexico use the gamecube controller as if it is a fighter stick, holding the controller on their leg and hovering their right hand over the buttons. I play like that once in a while just for funsies, and I would love that kind of feel with a full rig, but it just isn't something I could justify in a competitive setting.

I actually started holding the controller like this when I heard Javi holds his controller like a fighting stick (of course it took a lot of getting use to):

My left and is the same as it was before, I just have my pointer finger on the :ltrigger: and thumb and the :stick5:. However the way I hold it with my right hand is pretty weird. I put my thumb on the stick5:, my pointer finger on the :bbutton:, my middle finger is on the :abutton:, my ring finger is on the :ybutton: and my pinky is on the :zbutton:.

After I got use to it I was able to do things I was not able to before (Double shining, SHDL, etc.), so it helps you advance your tech skill a lot having all of your fingers on the buttons at once. But like a lot of people have said already, a modded fighting stick would have a problem cause of accessibility.

 

[Massive]

Massive, I think you forget that half of this community probably doesn't understand what a potentiometer is, and checking resistances requires a multimeter and some understanding of the circuitry of both the gamecube controller and the analog stick you're taking it from. That's some serious technical work, and it's not going to be feasible financially

I am fully aware that the vast majority of this community is not technical enough to attempt much beyond painting their controllers, but I'm assuming that anybody who would actually attempt to make their own set of sticks would at least have rudimentary electronics knowledge or be willing to read an introduction to soldering book.

These aren't very complicated modifications to make, especially if you're not wanting to attempt to implement automated behaviors. Most of it can be done with maybe a dollar's worth of electronic components.

 

[Fizzi]

Especially having looked at/interpreted controller data signals, I know, for example, how easy it would be to turn my Y button into an instant-perfect-waveshine button. It's easier to just ban all controller mods than to moderate on an individual basis.

If it were a commercial product though, like Cactuar said, maybe a case could be made for it.