Covering Ledge Recovery

[niCkHatHito]

I'm finding myself in the same aggravating scenario over and over with Ike: I can get a read on the opponent's ledge recovery option but never know what the proper punish is...
Feels like it's like me playing rock paper scissors, I can condition them /read that they'll throw scissors (but I DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE PAPER).. Help me!

More specifically, here are the answers & questions I have on certain the following recovery options:
1. They Attack = I Shield Grab
2. They Jump = I Short Hop Fair/Nair
3. They Let Go + Jump in = I Shield and usually let them get back to neutral... (What's a better punish for this option?)
4. They Climb = ????? I never know how to punish the standard ledge get up... How many frames do I have to punish? Is shield grab the wrong option? I feel like shield grab = if too early I wiff, and there's no such thing as too late because they can sheidl grab me back / jab me out... AM I SUPPOSED TO JAB? Do I need pristine frame perfect timing with jabs because I feel like I also see my opponents Climb into Shield Grab on my Jab spam when I react to their standard getup... Wtf is the right option here?
5. They Roll = ???? I can usually get this with a retreating FAIR randomly when I'm really trying to get their jump... But if I react to this I never know what I can do as Ike? Turn ftlit I think is too slow (or is it?) Turn grab/pivot grab? I usually try to bair and whiff...

I guess I just have bad timing on the options where they have very few frames for punish... but I can work on my timings.. the thing I'm still lost on is what the f........... is the right option to even try to attempt to punish on for #4 & #5 (and sometimes #3)

*Note: I noticed Ryo ledge trumps alot, I almost never do this... so I can add this into my mix-ups... But before I start adding that layer I really want to educate myself on having the proper responses for the basic ledge recoveries!

 

[Mario766]

Attack is beaten by Foxtrot Up-Smash, or shield grab. You can out-range get-up attacks with Ragnell pretty easily.
Jump is super easy to beat, N-Air.
Drop Jump usually means they will space out an aerial, you'll want to shield and wait for their option, they have to grab the ledge after, then you hit them because no ledge invincibility.
Roll can be beaten with up-smash read, PP Up-Tilt, Buffered Turn-Around D-Tilt. Pick your choice
Standard get-up has 2 frames of vulnerability. This MAY increase after 100, but I don't know. I believe the vulnerability frames go up after 100 percent damage. It's hard to punish with Ike's jab because it doesn't rejab very fast. If you lab it out, you can get dash grabs from it.

 

[Arrei]

If you're reading a jump, you can also throw out an Utilt over the ledge to attempt to catch them in the move's somewhat long active frames. This could secure a quick kill and may thwart a normal getup as well if they were intending to get up and attack immediately, but obviously requires a commitment. Don't try it against those that can kill you with a Bthrow and don't pull it out too much.

However, do be careful about ledge released moves, as I notice they're not on your list. They're not often pulled out since they don't grant invincibility, but you could eat a Falcon Knee or Flying Slam at precisely the wrong moment if you're not careful. The Utilt option grants some protection against this, but then you're challenging one dangerous option with another.


Also, be aware that Ike's Dsmash, Utilt, and Ftilt are fast enough to kill on a blocked getup attack if you react fast enough. Dsmash kills earliest but is most punishable on failure, Utilt's faster than the others by two frames but is still not safe on block, and Ftilt allows for safest spacing but is the weakest option.

 

[niCkHatHito]

Thanks Mario & Arrei for the tips so far.. So if I'm understanding correctly on the standard getup...
I have a 2 frame window where I can jab (which I can already tell you from experience can't be spammed since Ike's jab 1 is too slow on repeat)... but to my point:

If they buffer a shield grab, is it actually even possible frame-wise for me to grab first?

 

[Mario766]

Technically yes.

You're 2 frames advantage on any neutral get-up

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sadly don't have a particularly good scene around me to test this out in atm but:

Shouldn't a properly spaced SH Fair cover many of those options? Beats attack, ledge jump, drop and jump all with I'd imagine the same timing. Climbing up I don't know if you'd need the same timing or not. That just leaves roll, where you can Bair instead of Fair?

 

[Mario766]

It's a lot easier with N-Air, due to how meaty the move is.

 

[Arrei]

Ah, just remembered, something I haven't pulled out in a while but had generally good results when I was reasonably sure my opponent would go for a jump or a roll was to full hop backward and watch which option they picked. If they jump along with you, there's a good chance they'll air dodge because it looks like you're fixin' to smack them down with Fair, which means an Uair is the perfect trap, and if you think they'll call your bluff, said Fair is still a good option, sending them offstage for another edgeguard at worst and outright killing them otherwise. If they roll, on the other hand, a well-timed FF Fair is perfect for catching it. It's a relatively safe choice to cover two options while still having kill power, provided Fair isn't too stale. Just one more thing to have in your pocket if you don't want to use an USmash read.

Doing the maneuver with your back to them for Bair might also work, but having not actually tried that myself I can't say if it can punish the roll.