Counterpick stages for Lucas

[D e l t a]

This thread shall be used to discuss why Lucas does better or worse on a stage and why. It can either be a general idea about where to play on, or good stages to counterpick as Lucas.

I will compile all discussion into a more formal chart below.

==

Universal Starters: Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville, Battlefield.

Lucas does best on most of the beginning stages. There isn't really a terrible starting stage for Lucas, unless the stage list is modified. In that case, there will still be bans and inevitably end up with these 3 stages.

Pokemon Stadium 2 (PS2)
Explanation:

Spoiler

Pros:
This stage can help avoid most chain grabs and tech chases by utilizing the side platforms to his advantage. The side platforms also aid in blocking aerial approaches (Lucas' weakness). He can camp under a platform with PKF and force the enemy to either camp back, or approach horizontally.

The ceiling is not too high and he gets many kills off the top as with the other 2 stages. The wide horiztonal layout allows for more room to work with. Long distance DJC PKF reaches platform to platform.

Cons:
The enemy can out-camp Lucas and also force a horizontal approach. Luckily, his horizontal attacks (Fair, Nair, PKF) are not terrible; however, they are short ranged and can be predictable.

 

[Valkauv]

One stage that I find either good or bad is Dreamland. It has quite a lot of space and platforms to work with, but the high ceiling is reallllly high. Lucas naturally has quite a high jump so he should have no problem utilizing the platforms, but PS2/BF are far better for him in this regard.

I AM a bit of a PM noob, but I feel like depending on the player Dreamland can either be a good or very detrimental stage for Lucas.

 

[D e l t a]

One stage that I find either good or bad is Dreamland. It has quite a lot of space and platforms to work with, but the high ceiling is reallllly high. Lucas naturally has quite a high jump so he should have no problem utilizing the platforms, but PS2/BF are far better for him in this regard.

I AM a bit of a PM noob, but I feel like depending on the player Dreamland can either be a good or very detrimental stage for Lucas.

I find that depending on stage list available & matchup, DL can be pretty good. I had to vs a Ganon on Saturday and found that the open space combined with my amazing DI allowed me to live way longer while I could body him on stage. The open room allows for better camping & zoning. Not to mention Lucas having one of the better recoveries which allows him to recover from most places on the map. The nice thing also being that Lucas has Fsmash & Bair to kill off the sides, in addition to gimps & ledge guards.

Against spacies, you can do the up throw chain grab in the center of DL until about 20-30%, where it normally stops working.

Sharking under platforms still works, just have to full hop then DJC before you hit the apex of your jump.

==

Only really seems bad against floaties / long living cast members or characters that can out zone Lucas. Against those that run away and camp a lot (Link, Fox, etc), it's not a good stage to pick.

 

[Valkauv]

I find that depending on stage list available & matchup, DL can be pretty good. I had to vs a Ganon on Saturday and found that the open space combined with my amazing DI allowed me to live way longer while I could body him on stage. The open room allows for better camping & zoning. Not to mention Lucas having one of the better recoveries which allows him to recover from most places on the map. The nice thing also being that Lucas has Fsmash & Bair to kill off the sides, in addition to gimps & ledge guards.

Against spacies, you can do the up throw chain grab in the center of DL until about 20-30%, where it normally stops working.

Sharking under platforms still works, just have to full hop then DJC before you hit the apex of your jump.

==

Only really seems bad against floaties / long living cast members or characters that can out zone Lucas. Against those that run away and camp a lot (Link, Fox, etc), it's not a good stage to pick.

Any stage with platforms Lucas is typically good at since he is easily able to poke at opponents. The counterpick stages is where he struggles mostly, I feel, especially FD.

 

[D e l t a]

Any stage with platforms Lucas is typically good at since he is easily able to poke at opponents. The counterpick stages is where he struggles mostly, I feel, especially FD.

Sorry to be so blunt, but no.

Lucas does good on small stages ONLY when he's fighting characters with bad defensive options or poor horizontal kills. Yoshi, Olimar, Peach, Luigi, etc.

On FD, Lucas can body 90% of the cast. I don't think there's any character that outright beats Lucas on FD. Lucas on FD is the equivalent of M2K on that same stage. It's possible to beat him there, but you'll have to work your a$$ off.

Final Destination
Great juggles, open space, large area for multiple recovery options & wall ride, PKF forces defensive option and limits platform camping. Platforms don't interfere as much.

 

[trancex]

You can easily 0-death a spacie with a single pkf hit into chaingrab on FD. It's glorious.

 

[D e l t a]

You can easily 0-death a spacie with a single pkf hit into chaingrab on FD. It's glorious.

I can do this on most stages

A little off topic, I got up smash chained into upsmash from 30% to 70% then Bair spiked them on FD. No double jump as spacie = GG.

As for vs Spacies, if they miss the DI on Dthrow, you can chain grab to 100% into Fsmash kill. Against most good players, you'll typically only get 1-2 re-grabs off Dthrow. This works from 30-70% on most stages.

 

[D e l t a]

How do you guys feel about Lylat & FoD?

Lylat's ceiling is as high as FD last I recall and the tri platforms can work very well for Lucas. Small-ish side blast zones and with a tether recovery he doesn't worry about missing ledge or accidental SD's. Plus, the platforms seem really easy to ledge cancel off of after PKT2.

As for FoD, the platforms can mess up PKF and leaves little room to work with. Tall ceiling & small side zones can be hindering. On the other hand, he can pressure super hard, control the entire stage, and get early kills off the sides with Fsmash & Bair.

Thoughts?

 

[Thermal]

My worst stage by far is Skyworld, luckily people don't ever pick that stage. I'm not very good at Norfair, Lylat Cruise, or WarioWare to a large extent. My scene bans Yoshi's Story (Melee) which sadly is one of my best stages. I do pretty well on Yoshi's Island Brawl which gives you alot of room to work.

Last night I played 7 or so matches with a Zelda over netplay to try and learn the MU a bit more, as it is probably my worst. My best stage against her has probably been SmashVille. She can't really do as much teleport mindgames like on PS2 which I feel is slightly worse. I find it easier to get rid of her Din's Fire, as PKF usually extinguishes it. I think the player had fairly bad DI, but UThrow killed like 110% making it a large advantage for Lucas you wouldn't want to rid of (picking Dreamland would kind of sacrifice this option, but the platforms aren't in my favor either as they are a little high for DJC Uair chains).

 

[D e l t a]

My worst stage by far is Skyworld, luckily people don't ever pick that stage. I'm not very good at Norfair, Lylat Cruise, or WarioWare to a large extent. My scene bans Yoshi's Story (Melee) which sadly is one of my best stages. I do pretty well on Yoshi's Island Brawl which gives you alot of room to work.

Last night I played 7 or so matches with a Zelda over netplay to try and learn the MU a bit more, as it is probably my worst. My best stage against her has probably been SmashVille. She can't really do as much teleport mindgames like on PS2 which I feel is slightly worse. I find it easier to get rid of her Din's Fire, as PKF usually extinguishes it. I think the player had fairly bad DI, but UThrow killed like 110% making it a large advantage for Lucas you wouldn't want to rid of (picking Dreamland would kind of sacrifice this option, but the platforms aren't in my favor either as they are a little high for DJC Uair chains).

I'm not too experienced with playing or seeing Lucas on Norfair (as is the case with most of the scene). Skyworld / Skyloft are bad stages imo and not advantageous for Lucas. I played Zhime at Shots Fired and I did best on Smashville as well. PS2 feels like Zelda can camp under the lower platform until she gets a good setup.

I'll agree with DL being a bad stage (against floaties). They die perfectly on most stages from Dair -> upsmash, but can escape before it will kill on larger stages. Around 80%+ upsmash won't be able to connect. Against heavier / faster fallers, Lucas' other kill moves will still connect and kill (even off the top).

 

[Kipcom]

Lylat sucks.
FoD is gross.
Distant Planet is pretty bad, but might be improved in 3.6.
Norfair is also a stage I dislike.
Skyworld is trash.
Yoshis Island is rather lame.

Every other stage is fine to me. If I could, I'd only ever play on FD, BF, Smashville, and PS2 though.

Really small stages like Wario Ware and Yoshi's story used to be absolutely amazing for Lucas, but now they feel like a double edged sword. Don't really like them as much now.

 

[D e l t a]

Lylat sucks.
FoD is gross.
Distant Planet is pretty bad, but might be improved in 3.6.
Norfair is also a stage I dislike.
Skyworld is trash.
Yoshis Island is rather lame.

Every other stage is fine to me. If I could, I'd only ever play on FD, BF, Smashville, and PS2 though.

Really small stages like Wario Ware and Yoshi's story used to be absolutely amazing for Lucas, but now they feel like a double edged sword. Don't really like them as much now.

Lol we have almost the exact same opinions. I used to like YIB when I played Ivy and could heal off the Shy Guys. It interferes too much with PKF and Lucas' double jump just barely doesn't reach the platform height sometimes.

@~Pink Fresh~ was telling me that WarioWare is bad for Lucas, especially vs Fox. After about 5 games in a row getting bodied by my opponent's Fox, I gave up trying to make it work. Every other stage was either close games or me winning.

I still feel that Yoshi's Story is a good stage for Lucas. If you aren't heavily reliant on PKF and have good pressure, Lucas excels greatly on that stage.

 

[ilysm]

I've heard that to pick WarioWare against a spacie in general (especially as Lucas and his PK friend) means you have some kind of death wish, and from experience they do tend to dominate on that stage. I think WarioWare might be the most tense and weird and unforgiving in the whole legal set. It's like the PM version of Yoshi's from Melee; cramped and quick, with ruthless blast zones.

But then again, I'm not great at stage picking (usually I like to go to FoD with both Ness and Lucas because I personally enjoy it and because it looks nice and keeps me relaxed, without paying much regard to the numbers), so this discussion is really helpful to me. Thanks for the insight, all!

 

[trancex]

Sup 4 month bump.

Can I get an opinion on the Peach matchup on FD? Who wins here? I've always thought of FD as the counterpick of choice for Peach against fastfallers, but Lucas is so damn good on FD.

 

[D e l t a]

Sup 4 month bump.

Can I get an opinion on the Peach matchup on FD? Who wins here? I've always thought of FD as the counterpick of choice for Peach against fastfallers, but Lucas is so damn good on FD.

oh wow it's been 4 months since i made this? jeez, time flies while away at college....

==

TBH, I think Lucas still wins here. Endless juggles, nowhere to land, and no platforms for Peach to camp / tech chase. Likewise, Lucas can't necessarily escape her Dthrow tech chases, but Peach is too slow to always cover his tech options if he's tech rolling away.

Peach can't necessarily trap Lucas in juggle situations due to magnet stalling, lower fall speed allowing for double jump escape options, and incurring less hitstun allowing for aerials to break free from certain combo moves. She basically can only trap landings with turnips that can be grabbed with air dodge / Z catches or Fair will simply hit the turnip and Lucas gets to land for free.

Peach v Lucas is such a terrible MU for her. It's worse than any MU she faced in Melee IMO.

==

There's not too terribly many stages that Lucas loses to against Peach. I think Smashville because of the floating platform and FoD/GHZ due to their high vertical blast zones and short sides, are among the few stages that are favorable for Peach. Others would include Delphinos and Dreamland because they're massive and allow for increased survivability. However, Lucas can still kill floaties off the side from sweetspot Fair, Nair, Fsmash, and occasionally Bthrow, while benefiting from increased survival on large stages as well.

 

[D e l t a]

@ Lupin and others asking about Lucas stage preference, here's a general list of what I feel is best for Lucas. Obviously there is slight bias in the order and some people may prefer one stage over another.

1 (best stages)

- Final Destination
- Pokemon Stadium 2​

2

- Smashville
- Yoshi's Story​

3 (good stages)

Lylat Cruise
Green Hill Zone
​

4 (Neutral picks)

Battlefield
Distant Planet
​

5

Fountain of Dreams
​

6 (bad stages)

Delphino's Secret
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)​

7 (Ban if possible)

Norfair
Wario Ware
Skyworld & Skyloft (if those are even legal anywhere LOL)​

 

[1Twinmuduck]

Currently my favorite stages for Lucas are PS2, Warioware, Green Hill Zone and Distant Planet. I've just found a lot of success in my reigon on these stages. I've seen some people say Warioware is bad but I go pretty even vs Marths and Warios on that stage, not sure why maybe cause can get away with platform mixups and I have good platform tech cases and low percent kills. I love PS2 because it allows my gameplay and style to be more dynamic. I feel Distant Planet is good because it's similar to PS2, so its benefits are close to the same the edge platforms can also assist in kill setups but they can also affect your recovery. As for Green Hill Zone it's like Final Destination just smaller and with a platform that can't really mess up your combos too hard but I can see how people wouldn't like it. Also the pillar stage makes for good recovery chances. Stages I don't like that get instantly stricken by me are Delfino, Norfair and Yoshis Island. For Delfino the platforms are just to unreliable and can stuff your kill setups and approach options, also it's to big. Norfair has the same issues with the platforms disrupting your kill options but it's not nearly as bad because Lucas has good waveland, but they are still a big problem for Lucas. Yoshis Island has basically the same issues but the curvy ground makes it hard for you to get bair spikes and the platform is too reliable for me to feel comfortable. Those three are just stages I'm not confident on, maybe I could add FoD there since people keep picking that stage against me. All other stages I feel are decent for Lucas but if Lylat, Skyworld, and Castle Seige where legal I'd probably have to reconsider my bans. And I don't think there's a stage that Lucas loses on vs a certain character, I don't think he has a Fox vs Marth on FD matchup... Does he?

 

[D e l t a]

It's funny how Lucas' best stages are primarily the stages we prefer out of personal reasons, despite our character excelling on the given stage, i.e. PS2, Smashville, FD.

==

Agreed with most of your comments on stages. Here are the reasons I don't like WarioWare:
The way that PKF is mitigated and his approach options can get shut down quickly, hinders Lucas' ability to perform optimally at high level vs congiscant opponents. The distance is travels is most of the stage, but 2 platforms on each side of the stage results in easy maneuverability to dodge.

Yes, Lucas can shark the platforms and OU Upsmash the very top platform. However, I've accidentally DJ landed on the lower platforms too many times and it messes up my combo game more than most stages.

There isn't much room to recover if you somehow live offstage. The platforms mess up recovery mixups and Lucas gets ledge guarded easy here

If I ever get CP'd here bc I forget to ban the stage, I'd definitely switch to Fox/Falco/Marth before ever playing Lucas here. Just my thoughts on this stage. If you like it a lot, feel free to play here. Sometimes stage preference means more than CP advantage.

==

Side note, please break your post into sections. I'm fine reading block text, but 99% of people aren't

 

[1Twinmuduck]

It's funny how Lucas' best stages are primarily the stages we prefer out of personal reasons, despite our character excelling on the given stage, i.e. PS2, Smashville, FD.

==

Agreed with most of your comments on stages. Here are the reasons I don't like WarioWare:
The way that PKF is mitigated and his approach options can get shut down quickly, hinders Lucas' ability to perform optimally at high level vs congiscant opponents. The distance is travels is most of the stage, but 2 platforms on each side of the stage results in easy maneuverability to dodge.

Yes, Lucas can shark the platforms and OU Upsmash the very top platform. However, I've accidentally DJ landed on the lower platforms too many times and it messes up my combo game more than most stages.

There isn't much room to recover if you somehow live offstage. The platforms mess up recovery mixups and Lucas gets ledge guarded easy here

If I ever get CP'd here bc I forget to ban the stage, I'd definitely switch to Fox/Falco/Marth before ever playing Lucas here. Just my thoughts on this stage. If you like it a lot, feel free to play here. Sometimes stage preference means more than CP advantage.

==

Side note, please break your post into sections. I'm fine reading block text, but 99% of people aren't

I suppose our stages all comes down to how we play Lucas doesn't it? I play pretty aggressively using lots of mixups and conditioning, most kills I get with Lucas are either off the top with up smash or just edge guards, so sides aren't that important to me(unless it's like Roy or a tipper heavy Marth).

From what I can assess on your play style, it's more laid back and try to force your opponent to make a move so naturally you would favor larger stages, and I completely agree Lucas does well on large stages. However I don't use PK Freeze at all, I don't really feel it helps his neutral game that much more and it doesn't setup nearly as well to kill confirms like in 3.02. His movement is already superb and he has a lot of conditioning tools, so I like smaller stages just as much as the larger ones. Like I said I like to play aggressively and on Warioware there's no place to escape. The platforms are low and small enough to do tech cases with magnet, up air, or up smash and most characters get stuck unless they shield drop, or react quickly but Lucas will most likely slide off if he's hit in shield but a strong move like Marth tipper.

Overall I feel Warioware offers Lucas no disadvantages, and it just comes down to preferences or personal reasons.

 

[D e l t a]

That's true. Stages generally are more matchup dependent too. I would like WarioWare vs someone campy or patient. Vs a Fox, Bowser, Marth, etc they have more advantages on the stage, so I wouldn't ever bring them there.

There are disadvantages for Lucas there, but depending on how you play could possibly ignore some of those.

To elaborate on that, I'm tech heavy and platform movement is what I use a lot, but I practice on higher platforms like Battlefield or Dreamland and like more room to work with. I do early double jumps which messes up my followups when I doublejump land and suddenly I'm doing a smash attack / tilt instead of an aerial.
I can be aggressive and I'm working on it, but the only matches I've shown were vs campy or CC heavy characters like Sheik, Diddy, Puff.

 

[Eisen]

Don't know if this has been discussed or not, but I think Distant Planet, if available, should be a Lucas favorite. Why? A couple of reasons.

-Fairly wide blastzones/more distance to come back with using PK thunder and magnet
-Walled stage for easier PKT2 recovery/ledge snaps
-Wide main platform means our horizontal movement is as good as it is on FD
-The platforms

that last one is key to me. The platforms are are perfect height for Lucas to choose among a couple of options for combo extension/pursuit. Also, they're low enough for us to OU Usmash through to cover tech options. The outermost platforms are especially important for this, because they can be deceptive. They "sink" when an opponent lands. When it does, it dips low enough to throw the opponent off as to what we can actually hit with. DP is not a stage most people play on, but I feel like studying this could be important since I figure most people don't account for options after the dip. This small window of disconnect and confusion can be used to anyone's advantage, but I feel like it's especially important for Lucas. He needs every element of surprise he can get to start up his sick combo game since his neutral isn't Falco-like.

Another reason, while not super important to actual matches, is that practicing perfect multimagnets is EXTREMELY convenient here. The way the outer platforms work when only Lucas is on it means that even if you mess up your MM timing and are suspended in the air, the platform will catch up with you while it "springs back", putting you in the grounded state sooner than normal. This means that you can observe when the timing is off or not, while not sacrificing time in the air while you're senselessly falling/suspended. Basically, it improves the number of multimagnets you can get out per unit of time, thus allowing for more practice. It's kinda janky and fun too.

 

[D e l t a]

I like that stage. I feel it's neutral / Lucas' favor