Countering (Projectile) Spam - Ultimate

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#43
Doesn’t matter, I’ll let you keep losing to PK Fire spam online while I’m at a GSP if I spammed PK Fire I’d get bodied
Oh how clever of you, hitting me with the old "you're complaining about something, so that obviously means you lose to it all the time" argument.

I didn't even say "spam pk fire." I said "fish for pk fire confirms." And WTF does ness even do besides fish for pk fire confirms?
 

MG_3989

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#44
Oh how clever of you, hitting me with the old "you're complaining about something, so that obviously means you lose to it all the time" argument.

I didn't even say "spam pk fire." I said "fish for pk fire confirms." And WTF does ness even do besides fish for pk fire confirms?
Watch Awestin, Bestness, FOW, and Jtails play. Ness has phenomenal aerials. He has a great grab game. He has PK Thunder and PKT2. He has the yo-yo 2 frame trap. He has great movement aided by psi magnet. There’s a whole lot more Ness does than fish for PK Fire. He wouldn’t be as successful as he is competitively and in tournament results if that was all he did
 
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#45
You're talking tournament level players. I'm talking online level players.

And ness players online are really annoying and braindead.
 
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#48
little mac. idfk why i find him so annoying because i could easily deal with him in smash 4. i usually find the biggest problem with little mac when im playing mario. i have ways to get around mac and usually win except when im with mario. i just try to do something but little macs normal attacks are so fast and u cant punish any of his smash attacks it sort of feels like
 

Mikazuki

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#49
As a ZSS and Corrin main, K Rool is mostly an easy win for me. Juggling him and punishing his crown spam is so satisfying. So I don't mind him at all. But yeah, projectile spam is more annoying than ever. I do groan a little bit, if I have to play for the 100th time a Samus, Link, Dedede , Belmont or Snake, all basically using the same strategy. I can do fairly well against them, but sometimes even when I see a Boomerang, Gordo or Bomb coming I still tend to get hit by it. Lag messes up my timing, it gets even worse when I buffered an airdodge, because I pressed the shield button too late and fall to my demise like an Idiot. It's annoying but well, at least I get a good laugh of it when that happens.

Of course, everyone can play the way they like, but it is kinda sad, that quickplay mostly consists of heavies or zoners. I mean, the game has 70 characters after all. Characters that nobody uses like Rosalina, Duck Hunt and Greninja need some love too, you know.
 
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zipzo

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#50
I think Lucas is pretty annoying online, very close tie with Samus and any version of Link.

2nd to that is probably Ganondorf or Incineroar because they camp the command grab and do 50% each confirm.
 

Coolboy

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#52
currently it's :ultganondorf:

all my main characters really struggle against him.... i already get frustrated when i end up having to go against a Ganon on a 1 vs 1 match...gah D:
his moves are just to difficult for me to deal with and they literally always hit me no matter what! >.>
 
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MG_3989

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#53
currently it's :ultganondorf:

all my main characters really struggle against him.... i already get frustrated when i end up having to go against a Ganon on a 1 vs 1 match...gah D:
his moves are just to difficult for me to deal with and they literally always hit me no matter what! >.>
I actually get that. While I usually beat him (unless they’re a really good player) he’s always annoying. The fact that you can die in like three hits but the worst part is his command grab (I HATE command grabs in general). Even if you tech roll against it if he guess right he still punishes you hard. If you’re trying to space him he just throws it out and it’s not like you wanna be close to him anyway with all that super armor. It’s basically play a zoner or be in for a very annoying match with him

Young Link is starting to become my least favorite zoner. With Samus, the Belmonts, adult Link, and any other zoner I can break through them pretty easily but Young Link is like pulling teeth. I just really don’t like characters that operate the way he does in general

little mac. idfk why i find him so annoying because i could easily deal with him in smash 4. i usually find the biggest problem with little mac when im playing mario. i have ways to get around mac and usually win except when im with mario. i just try to do something but little macs normal attacks are so fast and u cant punish any of his smash attacks it sort of feels like
I get this too. With Mario I would just keep jumping over and avoiding his attacks and once he gives you an opening get him in the air and hopefully off stage. The super armor is annoying though. I think the part that’s annoying about him is you know he’s bad yet you still have trouble with him sometimes
 
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xwingz900

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#55
A couple of my personal least favorites are

:ultlink:- Annoying zoner with ridiculous air space control, and in my opinion some, of the most annoying smash attacks in the game. (Don't struggle with Young or Toon though)

:ultike:- Aerials are ridiculous, also kills really early.

:ultganondorf:- Not impossible, but killing from a forward smash at 60% is annoying.

:ultgreninja:- I'm just unfamiliar with the matchup

:ultsonic:- Same as Greninja
 
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MG_3989

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#56
Ganondorf and K Rool. Because that's all anyone seems to want to play. People play them to try and cheese out wins and be extra swaggy but most of them are just not very good at it.
I guess it’s kind of annoying to run up against Ganondorf and K Rool but as Ness I just look at it as a free win. I’d much rather go up against K Rool than any variety of Link
 

Sean²

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#57
I guess it’s kind of annoying to run up against Ganondorf and K Rool but as Ness I just look at it as a free win. I’d much rather go up against K Rool than any variety of Link
I like the challenge of getting past all their crap to get in on them. Same with most zoners. Less so when I get what should be a clean KO on K Rool only to have him recover from the bottom corner blastzone all the way to the top platform. And I get sick of playing the patience game against Ganondorf so I don’t die at 40.
 
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#58
Ness is so damn braindead. They don’t even have to be good to be irritating. Just fish for pk fire confirms and congrats, you’re a ness main.

That said, pikachu and pichu may actually be worse because, depending on the matchup, they’re likely to spend most of the fight ping ponging you to either end of the stage and generally just be relentlessly aggressive. Wouldn’t be surprised, or lose any sleep, if they got nerfed TBH.
I'd like to play your ness.
 

Sean²

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#61
Miis

gunner in particular
I forgot Miis existed for a sec. Let me say I hate Swordfighter too because it’s always someone who only learned the kill confirm and can’t play the character otherwise
 

MG_3989

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#62
I'd like to play your ness.
You can play my Ness!

Miis

gunner in particular
All the Miis are annoying but gunner is in a different league of annoying. Nothing feels worse than losing to them

I like the challenge of getting past all their crap to get in on them. Same with most zoners. Less so when I get what should be a clean KO on K Rool only to have him recover from the bottom corner blastzone all the way to the top platform. And I get sick of playing the patience game against Ganondorf so I don’t die at 40.
Yeah it’s more of an actual match than K Rool or Ganondorf I guess. Ganondorf I’m honestly fine with unless you spam command grab which I’ll just punish anyway. K Rool players are the worst and they recover from obscene distances. Like dude I’m 2 stocks up and you’re at 160% just die
 
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Diddy Kong

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#64
little mac. idfk why i find him so annoying because i could easily deal with him in smash 4. i usually find the biggest problem with little mac when im playing mario. i have ways to get around mac and usually win except when im with mario. i just try to do something but little macs normal attacks are so fast and u cant punish any of his smash attacks it sort of feels like
Approach from the air and throw more fire balls. F.L.U.D.D. off stage for cheap kills that are hilarious.
 
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#65
I don't play ness. Never have, never will.
Of course you don't. Anyone who plays Ness knows how frustrating it is to land a PK Fire on a competent player who is good. Even online. Which is why MG_3989 uses it sparingly. It's an easy move punish. Unless you're playing a braindead player. They run into it like moths to light. In that case, spam away. Get the match over with so you can move on to someone decent.

Sounds to me like a whole lot of assumptions about PK Fire and not a whole lot of proving that he's a braindead character.
 
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#66
Of course you don't. Anyone who plays Ness knows how frustrating it is to land a PK Fire on a competent player who is good. Even online. Which is why MG_3989 uses it sparingly. It's an easy move punish. Unless you're playing a braindead player. They run into it like moths to light. In that case, spam away. Get the match over with so you can move on to someone decent.
If you ever wondered why people report "spammers" then there you go. You're pretty much asking for it when you do that. XD
 

MG_3989

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#67
Of course you don't. Anyone who plays Ness knows how frustrating it is to land a PK Fire on a competent player who is good. Even online. Which is why MG_3989 uses it sparingly. It's an easy move punish. Unless you're playing a braindead player. They run into it like moths to light. In that case, spam away. Get the match over with so you can move on to someone decent.

Sounds to me like a whole lot of assumptions about PK Fire and not a whole lot of proving that he's a braindead character.
Thanks for the support but it’s not even worth it. He wants to be ignorant on how Ness actually plays and that he’s actually a character with a ton depth and substance. If I can get away with something stupid I’m not saying I won’t but I still won’t spam. But if somebody is wide open to PK Fire over and over again I’m gonna use it
 
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Sean²

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#68
I mean in Ghidorah14 Ghidorah14 ’s defense, Ness does have one of the lowest skill floors in the game with very rewarding moves so it makes sense why unskilled and spammy players are attracted to him to play with online.
 
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MG_3989

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#69
I mean in Ghidorah14 Ghidorah14 defense, Ness does have one of the lowest skill floors in the game with very rewarding moves so it makes sense why unskilled and spammy players are attracted to him to play with online.
I don’t think he has a high skill floor. PKT2 takes some getting used to and you have to be competent with short hopping aerials and airdodging effectively to play him with any sort of efficacy. You won’t even hit 100k without knowing how to maunuver and recover and Ness does it differently than most characters. Like you said he had a decently low skill floor (which means he’s not the easiest to pick up) and I’m confused by your pharsing

He also has a high skill ceiling. Every single one of his moves is useful. You have to learn what to do in what situations. He’s not a braindead character by any means if watch anybody who’s been playing Ness for a while play. I’ve had some of my most difficult and decision filled games with Ness where the wrong or right call on one or two seemingly minor plays was the difference between winning and losing. I’ve had more of those type of games with Ness than any other character
 
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MG_3989

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#72
Let’s just stop with this here. Some people find Ness annoying and that’s ok. When you call him a brain dead character though of course I’m gonna say something because he’s my main and I do understand why you find him annoying but don’t call him brain dead without ever even playing him. I don’t want this thread to devolve and derail into unnecessary arguments
 
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Sean²

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#73
I don’t think he has a high skill floor. PKT2 takes some getting used to and you have to be competent with short hopping aerials and airdodging effectively to play him with any sort of efficacy. You won’t even hit 100k without knowing how to maunuver and recover and Ness does it differently than most characters. Like you said he had a decently low skill floor (which means he’s not the easiest to pick up) and I’m confused by your pharsing

He also has a high skill ceiling. Every single one of his moves is useful. You have to learn what to do in what situations. He’s not a braindead character by any means if watch anybody who’s been playing Ness for a while play. I’ve had some of my most difficult and decision filled games with Ness where the wrong or right call on one or two seemingly minor plays was the difference between winning and losing. I’ve had more of those type of games with Ness than any other character
Never claimed he had a low skill ceiling. Just a low skill floor. If you've never touched the character before you can play for an hour or so and figure out how to recover in multiple ways with PKT2. That's the hardest thing to pick up when you're just learning the character. Ignore ATs or advanced reads and confirms. For unskilled players, hitting PK Fire means you basically get a free strong attack out of it, or you can keep using PK fire and get tons of damage. For people starting out, you'll get a ton more mileage out of Ness than you will with probably 80% of the cast, especially against other unskilled players. The "PK Fire Spam" stereotype exists for a reason.
 

MG_3989

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#74
Never claimed he had a low skill ceiling. Just a low skill floor. If you've never touched the character before you can play for an hour or so and figure out how to recover in multiple ways with PKT2. That's the hardest thing to pick up when you're just learning the character. Ignore ATs or advanced reads and confirms. For unskilled players, hitting PK Fire means you basically get a free strong attack out of it, or you can keep using PK fire and get tons of damage. For people starting out, you'll get a ton more mileage out of Ness than you will with probably 80% of the cast, especially against other unskilled players. The "PK Fire Spam" stereotype exists for a reason.
I guess so but you won’t get much out of PK Fire once you reach a certain point unless you learn Ness’s strings and combos. You have to read the other player to know how to follow up PK Fire. Even low level players know how to DI out of PK Fire and not get hit with the bat and the grab isn’t that significant unless you land the strings after anyway.

He has a lot of kill moves but you have to know what situation everyone works on unless you’re relying on the bat which is no good. Brand new players generally don’t know the properties of throws and aerials that kill. I don’t see a lot of new players getting bair, uair, nair, PKT2, PKT juggle kills, or even backthrow kills when they’re first starting out
 
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#75
All I'm saying is maybe don't double down on doing the thing you know triggers people and then act like you cant believe why people would wanna block or report you.
So we just straight up can't beat people because they suck at avoiding a move?

Sounds to me like when you have a broken reporting system, losers take advantage of it.
But if PK Fire is such an effective fishing tool, I offer the invitation, again, to prove me wrong.
Show me how effective PK Fire fishing is and I'll take back everything I said.
 

Sean²

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#76
I guess so but you won’t get much out of PK Fire once you reach a certain point unless you learn Ness’s strings and combos. You have to read the other player to know how to follow up PK Fire. Even low level players know how to DI out of PK Fire and not get hit with the bat and the grab isn’t that significant unless you land the strings after anyway.

He has a lot of kill moves but you have to know what situation everyone works on unless you’re relying on the bat which is no good. Brand new players generally don’t know the properties of throws and aerials that kill. I don’t see a lot of new players getting bair, uair, nair, PKT2, PKT juggle kills, or even backthrow kills when they’re first starting out
With this, you're inching closer and closer to the ceiling. All I was saying was, if you really want to play braindead, Ness is a wonderful choice. Bad Ness players love nickel and diming percent on you till they get you to kill percent and running away until they can try to bait you into running into their back throw. Not saying it's going to net you wins, but you can probably frustrate people to the point where they want to come on the internet and post in a thread titled "Most annoying character to run into on quickplay".
 

MG_3989

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#77
With this, you're inching closer and closer to the ceiling. All I was saying was, if you really want to play braindead, Ness is a wonderful choice. Bad Ness players love nickel and diming percent on you till they get you to kill percent and running away until they can try to bait you into running into their back throw. Not saying it's going to net you wins, but you can probably frustrate people to the point where they want to come on the internet and post in a thread titled "Most annoying character to run into on quickplay".
I understand that. I guess they just don’t really annoy me because I’m a Ness main and I know exactly what they’re doing and they’d be lucky to put 30% on me using that tactic. I can definitely see how it could be annoying though. I just think zoners that are actually good are more annoying. Fighting a tough Ylink for example can completely shut down your game plan and make you adjust on the fly if they’re competent with projectiles and you’re probably gonna lose to a couple before you figure them out. Just my personal opinion though
 
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#78
...I know exactly what they’re doing and they’d be lucky to put 30% on me using that tactic.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.
If you know what they're doing, it won't work.
If you don't know what they're doing, learn it.

Reporting, crying, complaining, criticizing, blaming, deflecting, etc. won't help you improve, won't stop the other player from attempting to win by any means necessary, or remove PK Fire.

People have been complaining about Ness since Smash Wii U. They nerfed his PK Fire ZERO times. There have been multiple updates and a whole new game and people are still complaining. Don't hate the player. Dont hate the game. Hate your skills
 
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#79
TBH I could probably get to elite smash in one session with my day 1 ness. Being braindead doesn’t equate to being OP.
 

Sean²

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#80
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.
If you know what they're doing, it won't work.
If you don't know what they're doing, learn it.

Reporting, crying, complaining, criticizing, blaming, deflecting, etc. won't help you improve, won't stop the other player from attempting to win by any means necessary, or remove PK Fire.

People have been complaining about Ness since Smash Wii U. They nerfed his PK Fire ZERO times. There have been multiple updates and a whole new game and people are still complaining. Don't hate the player. Dont hate the game. Hate your skills
idk hearing "PK Fire" and "PK Thunder" 700 times during a match seems worthy of a complaint

At least Samus and Link don't scream their move names at us when they're rolling back and forth to each side of FD
 
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