Countering Aerial Spam?

Generalflood

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#1
Yo so this has been a problem to me even before I got the game, I noticed aerial moves have virtually no landing lag so you can legit throw out aerials back to back and even on a shield or just landing you can go right into grabs, jabs, more aerials, etc - It's like an endless damage WALL, especially when we're talking Shulk, Chrom, or any of the sword characters (characters with lesser range on their aerials you may at least outrange or something, regardless its still insane pressure if you get caught in shield and theres still no real opening if they fastfall into tilts and jabs and etc)

Again before I even got the game I saw the first Ultimate Tourney where a player named Tweek won with Chrom just endlessly throwing out aerials and if he landed threw out more attacks almost instantly - and this is a recurring trend I've been seeing more and more of and I'm thinking it may be the PEAK PERFORMANCE which seems really nasty. I've even experimented with throwing out spam myself to incredible result, I almost even got elite smash on Chrom the first time I played him just doing this, and I probably would've if I made any attempts at spacing and not suiciding my stocks to try and do some Primetime-Comedy-Chrombo's for some laughs (Chromedy).

For a moment my Chrom GSP even surpassed my main, Toon Link, who I've gotten into elite after taking the time to theorycraft some counters to aerial spam but am considering dropping as I need to be able to put out this kind of superior pressure as well, not just defend against it as thats a recipe for failure - last thing anyone should want to do is purposely allow their opponent to have superior pressure for free as throwing aerials into landing jabs/grabs just locks the opponent on defense usually unless they have some special way to get through the wall.

Now I've experimented with some moves to try and counter aerial spam with my main as TL doesn't have the super badass aerials needed to survive out here, and it's worked to only a small degree but it did get me into elite against aerial spam.


SO, the only moves I've seen for countering aerail spam are:

- Having a front and back out of shield option that you can do instantly after blocking the aerial (most dont have this sucks 2 be u, even then some of the attacks after the aerial are too instant for this to work)

- Nairing out of sheild after the aerial (doesn't work for and against a lot of characters so be careful on that, and some of the pressure after shielding an aerial is so instant you can't do this)

- Holding shield until they throw out both their aerial and complete their jabs/tilts (tough cuz you get pushed out of range to punish against something such as both Chrom's nair into several downtilts, besides this is a gamble cuz you could just get sent to the GRAB-ZONE)

- Shielding the aerial THEN spotdodging the followup (implying its a single hit or grab, so yea another big gamble), do not just spotdodge the aerial itself and attempt to punish you have to spotdodge the landing attack(s) to get anything done

- Perfect shielding your *** off which takes quadruple the effort they're putting in only for you to get tiny baby punishes anyway

And those are the options involving shield as its likely you get pressured into shield, I prefer to not be on complete and total defense so heres the options that dont involve shielding

- Having longer range aerials, this is the most reliable counter tbh which is big toxic and I hope thats not where we're headed

- Hardcore trolling and just randomly seeing if you get an attack through the wall or catch them when they for some reason aren't throwing out a hitbox

- Rolling behind them as they spam the aerial??? I haven't tried this too much but they can react to your roll pretty easy

- Of course instead of shielding and if your range is shorter than your enemy, you can try being out of range of the aerial when its thrown and trying to come in directly as the hitbox ends but how good are you at timing this really - I also don't think this even works because as I said after they land they're throwing out more attacks already and they'll see you coming easy

- And last but not least is literally shooting projectiles till they get upset and come at you the wrong way

So if you know how to take on this stuff lemme know cuz some characters I have legit no idea how they get around this, like I tried to play some Greninja and I have no idea how you'd get in on someone like Shulk or something if they literally never touch the ground and are also throwing out an aerial wall you can't get through unless you're shielding their attack and trying to mix into a spotdodge for the grab followup or holding onto your shield till the jabs/tilts end, which they could easily choose to not fall for either of.





TLDR: the lack of any lag after aerials = insane pressure from endless hitboxes if you can't get through a damage wall and allowing mixups by instant jabs, grabs, and tilts after landing thereby putting the enemy immediately in a really disadvantaged position - the main problems are when its a SuperFighter like Chrom or the swords who completely outrange you, tho alot of other characters are crazy good at putting out nonstep aerial walls as well.

Also Shulk is insane at this aerial stuff so watch out for this guy.
 
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Zachmac

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#2
Well if they're spamming the same moves over and over again there will probably be some sort of opening. If you're trying to approach, try to find a pattern in your opponents movement and use that chance to strike with a dash attack or an aerial of your own. This has been a vital strategy for me in using the stubby-ranged Squirtle.

Early I watched a video by a guy called Verma Nubis that suggested that if you have a character with good air mobility but small hitboxes to try to attack from an angle that's difficult to deal with. I've personally gotten much better at approaching with Squirtle from watching this video by coming at my opponents with fullhop into fastfall fairs. I don't play Greninja but I assume he could do something similar with nair or bair if his water shuriken isn't adequate on his on. I recommend watching the entire video I linked if you have the patience for it though, as neutral is just an important thing to understand.
 

Uffe

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#4
It sounds more like a sword character issue. If you're using Ness, Lucas, Mario, or anybody with a quick up tilt, use that if they're hovering around you. But out of shield nairs is a good option as well. If you're using Samus or Dark Samus, you might be able to buffer up air out of shield. I can't say it'll work since I haven't tested this, but it sounds like a good idea.
 

zipzo

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#6
OMG I did think it was a bit odd that all the best Ike's I have fought basically just jump up and down repeatedly the entire match, and finding an opening is INSANELY difficult, add on the fact all of his hits combo in to an upsmash, I've found it a bit ridiculous.

It does seem like a lot of the swordies basically just jump up and down constantly.
 

Mogisthelioma

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#7
Hold shield. Most swordies tend to forget that they have a grab button.

When they approach you mentally record how they do so. Do they instantly attack or wait for an opening? Take advantage of what you discover. If they simply run in and attack you can counter that by:
  1. Rolling away and punishing
  2. Jumping away and punishing
  3. Launch a counterattack and hit them before they hit you
If they wait for an opening and go for shield pressure you may be in trouble, since that's where fighters like Link and Chrom excel. If you can parry their attack and counter with a fast enough move or roll away in the parry to reset neutral, that should work.
 

Generalflood

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#8
Ok so I wanted to stop by and say something for anyone whos comin thru this thread looking for answers - virtually every counter doesnt work besides outranging your opponent or hoping you can get an out of shield punish (which isnt always possible as some aerials that connect with your shield have literally no lag and you will just be subject to mixups regardless)

Pretty much if you do not outrange your opponent and they are spamming aerials into acting instantly on the ground you just WILL be put into shield or forced to move away, so I'd suggest just playing something that has thick, fat, strong, long aerials so you can out-aerial your enemies to avoid just being on the defensive
 

Slugma128

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#9
I have also noticed this problem: people just cancelling out of air lag and the Smash team seriously needs to fix this. Palutena is another character who has insane air combos (0-30% is not uncommon).

There needs to be more end lag to aerial moves in general, because this is a real problem.
 

JKincaid

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#10
My favorite is to approach to bait them into SH Nair or whatever, stopping short, and F-Smashing them.

People who basically just spam aerials typically just do it because it's strong, not because they're doing it for a specific end goal. Players like that usually have distinct patterns and just react to any stimulus they see.

If someone does it with intentionality you can probably shield the initial one and punish the follow up. Like if they nair away to keep them safe you can mix them up on their landing. Its dependent on your character. My main Bowser can up smash to armor through particularly egregious spam, or just up-B to suck them in and put on damage. Usually it's best to just hold the first aerial and punish whatever they do after it
 

KetchupKaffei

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#12
Ok so I wanted to stop by and say something for anyone whos comin thru this thread looking for answers - virtually every counter doesnt work besides outranging your opponent or hoping you can get an out of shield punish (which isnt always possible as some aerials that connect with your shield have literally no lag and you will just be subject to mixups regardless)

Pretty much if you do not outrange your opponent and they are spamming aerials into acting instantly on the ground you just WILL be put into shield or forced to move away, so I'd suggest just playing something that has thick, fat, strong, long aerials so you can out-aerial your enemies to avoid just being on the defensive
You can bait your opponent or find the pattern of their movement.
I play characters like pikachu and kirby and have short range(mainly kirby) but I can still get in within range of characters.
It's not about a true way of "countering" a option in a press of a button, but actually trying to find a neutral game with that opponent.

If everyone else can find a way around it easily, I'm pretty sure you can as well.


Sorry for the double post, not sure how to use this format to well
 
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Teeb147

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#13
You can bait your opponent or find the pattern of their movement.
I play characters like pikachu and kirby and have short range(mainly kirby) but I can still get in within range of characters.
It's not about a true way of "countering" a option in a press of a button, but actually trying to find a neutral game with that opponent.

If everyone else can find a way around it easily, I'm pretty sure you and few others can as well.


Sorry for the double post, not sure how to use this format to well
Yeh. I think learning to outplay the opponent is always the best option.

For not double posting, You just click 'edit' on your post and you can add to it. If you quote or reply someone while you have your cursor in the edit mode, it'll show up there. Alternatively you can copy their quote in the reply box to put in what you're editting.


Sword characters are really good this time around, due to the low landing lag, but low landing lag is not the culprit, it's great as it makes aggressive play more viable than smash 4, speeds up the game and provides more safe options so it's not mainly defensive.
Some characters are pretty balanced in other ways so you can take advantage of what they cant do as well, but in chrom's case he has both fast ground and aerial speed, which makes it hard to find openings. I think him and a few other sword characters could be balanced better, but good players can deal with them, so if you cant figure out how to deal with them just try to see what they do so you can understand better how to play those matches.
 
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Generalflood

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#14
You can bait your opponent or find the pattern of their movement.
I play characters like pikachu and kirby and have short range(mainly kirby) but I can still get in within range of characters.
It's not about a true way of "countering" a option in a press of a button, but actually trying to find a neutral game with that opponent.

If everyone else can find a way around it easily, I'm pretty sure you and few others can as well.


Sorry for the double post, not sure how to use this format to well

O yea I meant to throw in some lines to help understand I'm not some cheese Overwatch-type player who wants a hard one button counter to everything cuz I figured it'd come off like that at some point.

But besides that, noting everything people say for counterplay to this particular playstyle is just leaving you in a disadvantaged-defensive-reaction state vs someone who's able to pretty much aggro and mix up as they please, making the aerial spam easily the peak performance option as it puts you on advantage with a hard to punish offense and being on the other end of it constantly in a defensive/predictive state needing the other guy to make mistakes is a recipe for failure.
Jumping and doing aerials is almost a free neutral advantage unless you're equal or more range than your opponent with aerials that can challenge which is kinda nasty. Relying on the player to be bad enough to fall for bait or have patterns that actually leave them open isn't good as some of these are a literal hitbox wall that you cannot advance through even if you baited or read them, you'd have to get through the aerial hitbox as well as avoid their hits once they land that's leaving no opening unless you're already inside their range and shielding in which its then their option to mixup most times.

Like I and a few other people have found ways around it that work sometimes, and most HAVEN'T found a way through - but the playstyle of greater range/priority aerials is far superior and I'm certain is the best choice but am still looking to see if it's the ultimate way to play ultimate because you can literally wall off opponents.
 

Teeb147

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#15
O yea I meant to throw in some lines to help understand I'm not some cheese Overwatch-type player who wants a hard one button counter to everything cuz I figured it'd come off like that at some point.

But besides that, noting everything people say for counterplay to this particular playstyle is just leaving you in a disadvantaged-defensive-reaction state vs someone who's able to pretty much aggro and mix up as they please, making the aerial spam easily the peak performance option as it puts you on advantage with a hard to punish offense and being on the other end of it constantly in a defensive/predictive state needing the other guy to make mistakes is a recipe for failure.
Jumping and doing aerials is almost a free neutral advantage unless you're equal or more range than your opponent with aerials that can challenge which is kinda nasty. Relying on the player to be bad enough to fall for bait or have patterns that actually leave them open isn't good as some of these are a literal hitbox wall that you cannot advance through even if you baited or read them, you'd have to get through the aerial hitbox as well as avoid their hits once they land that's leaving no opening unless you're already inside their range and shielding in which its then their option to mixup most times.

Like I and a few other people have found ways around it that work sometimes, and most HAVEN'T found a way through - but the playstyle of greater range/priority aerials is far superior and I'm certain is the best choice but am still looking to see if it's the ultimate way to play ultimate because you can literally wall off opponents.
Outplaying the other person isn't about relying on them playing badly.
Maybe stop assuming that it can't be handled. It's a big part of the meta, but jumping doesnt put someone in a good position. look for them, get in at the right times. There's more, but it depends which character someone is using.
Watching top level play can help. good luck.
 

KetchupKaffei

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#16
O yea I meant to throw in some lines to help understand I'm not some cheese Overwatch-type player who wants a hard one button counter to everything cuz I figured it'd come off like that at some point.

But besides that, noting everything people say for counterplay to this particular playstyle is just leaving you in a disadvantaged-defensive-reaction state vs someone who's able to pretty much aggro and mix up as they please, making the aerial spam easily the peak performance option as it puts you on advantage with a hard to punish offense and being on the other end of it constantly in a defensive/predictive state needing the other guy to make mistakes is a recipe for failure.
Jumping and doing aerials is almost a free neutral advantage unless you're equal or more range than your opponent with aerials that can challenge which is kinda nasty. Relying on the player to be bad enough to fall for bait or have patterns that actually leave them open isn't good as some of these are a literal hitbox wall that you cannot advance through even if you baited or read them, you'd have to get through the aerial hitbox as well as avoid their hits once they land that's leaving no opening unless you're already inside their range and shielding in which its then their option to mixup most times.

Like I and a few other people have found ways around it that work sometimes, and most HAVEN'T found a way through - but the playstyle of greater range/priority aerials is far superior and I'm certain is the best choice but am still looking to see if it's the ultimate way to play ultimate because you can literally wall off opponents.
You have to get better. That's all I can say. In all Smash games constant ariel attacks by players are a thing. I'm not sure how this is much of a surprise for you. There are so many ways to counter this easily and instead of trying to improve yourself and actually own up to adapting, you are putting it on the game and seemly want the game to be slowered down because you are having trouble with figuring out your own tools in your disposal to resolve the issue.

This is exactly why I love this game to death, but I absolutely fear the future for it. Because of the fact that the possibility of Patches being a thing, people will usually be under the feeling of something needing to be "fixed", nerfed, or buffed because it's something they don't understand or don't actually want to invest time to learn how to overcome it. Just the thought knowing there is possibility of a patch instead of like before where patches were not possible, the players would think to overcome the problem as that's the only option.

But I have faith in Sakurai as this game is heavily designed the way he wanted it to be portrayed and I believe he won't change things that would break the concept of the game itself.
So I feel he will stick to his guns on this.
 
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EGsmash

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#17
I think where we're all getting our wires crossed up is the fact that what works in Tournament play or even local play absolutely 100% does not hold true for online play which is where most of us are going to be spending our time.

Online play is slowed down to account for lag, and there is also increased input lag to compensate. This puts reactions at a huge disadvantage - where you might be able to very carefully monitor spacing and timing of moves offline, the same does not work as elegantly as local battles. Folks learn to play with the lag and make their inputs ahead of when they normally would so are able to pull off seemingly tight combos when it reality they're just replaying what they've rehearsed. But this makes readjusting to strategy much more difficult if not impossible if you've never seen it before. This is probably why SH-aerials, projectiles, and bury move characters are so popular. Online meta caps out at these spammy tactics because, short of high-level offline reactions, there's nothing some characters can possibly do against it aside from engaging in the same activity, and they generally fall into that 'low risk - high reward' category. It also doesn't help that online play increases chances of input error and SDs in a game that's already really bad for those things.

Unfortunately Ultimate encourages this type of behavior through the new gameplay changes. In order to appease the Melee crowd and compete with other esports fighters it had to be flashier and faster. But Melee was kept alive solely on nostalgic life support and exclusive high-level play rather than the gameplay experience, so for those of us who were thrilled with moving past how bad Melee actually was Ultimate feels like a massive step backwards.
 

Teeb147

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#18
I think where we're all getting our wires crossed up is the fact that what works in Tournament play or even local play absolutely 100% does not hold true for online play which is where most of us are going to be spending our time.

Online play is slowed down to account for lag, and there is also increased input lag to compensate. This puts reactions at a huge disadvantage - where you might be able to very carefully monitor spacing and timing of moves offline, the same does not work as elegantly as local battles. Folks learn to play with the lag and make their inputs ahead of when they normally would so are able to pull off seemingly tight combos when it reality they're just replaying what they've rehearsed. But this makes readjusting to strategy much more difficult if not impossible if you've never seen it before. This is probably why SH-aerials, projectiles, and bury move characters are so popular. Online meta caps out at these spammy tactics because, short of high-level offline reactions, there's nothing some characters can possibly do against it aside from engaging in the same activity, and they generally fall into that 'low risk - high reward' category. It also doesn't help that online play increases chances of input error and SDs in a game that's already really bad for those things.

Unfortunately Ultimate encourages this type of behavior through the new gameplay changes. In order to appease the Melee crowd and compete with other esports fighters it had to be flashier and faster. But Melee was kept alive solely on nostalgic life support and exclusive high-level play rather than the gameplay experience, so for those of us who were thrilled with moving past how bad Melee actually was Ultimate feels like a massive step backwards.
I think that's going a little too far, and it doesn't help adapt to what the game IS. Online wasnt better in smash 4 anyway, and it was even more annoying to mistime something and be punished for it, it wasn't fun to try and attack, campy play worked. It was harder to catch campy projectile people because of laggier times if didn't time right, and now in ultimate there's quicker moves to go with so it's easier to go after them and move right back into pursuit if they dodge; instead of always being able to keep space away.

And I'd say online isn't the best to base the actual game around anyway. Faster gameplay is more fun for most casual people too since they can press more buttons and not wait so much in animations.
Anyway. I feel like these posts are just people who have a hard times with some things and it's not bad to vent, but it sucks when it distorts your view of the game like this. There's some things i get upset about with the game too, but I try my best not to let those ruin my experience and get better with how things are.

Enjoy yourself however you can ;)
 
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EGsmash

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#19
I think that's going a little too far...
I disagree because this game allows projectile players to spam more projectiles in a shorter timeframe and also act out of them sooner to react to you getting around it. In Smash 4, it was easy to get around projectile spacing and punish because folks were still in their animation. Example: Cloud's bladebeam could be shielded into a run-up grab. Now Cloud can act sooner out of bladebeam PLUS you're at the disadvantage of having to drop your shield. Short hopping over it isn't usually safe, and Cloud can easily escape or punish a full hop if you want to close the gap. I'm really not making this up - I pay attention to frames and timings, and this game IS spammier.

Faster gameplay is not necessarily more fun for casuals because that type of gameplay ability is generally unavailable to casual players. You're not going to see casual players throwing out frame-perfect reverse aerial dash cancels or even intentional shield parries on a regular basis. You will see casual players spamming projectiles and mashing A+Y because that is and always will be the top meta for casual play. Yes, that kind of play can be overcome, but most people won't be able to do it, and since high-level play is much more difficult if not impossible to pull off online (where a majority of people will spend their time in this game), that's about all there is to it.
 

Teeb147

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#20
I disagree because this game allows projectile players to spam more projectiles in a shorter timeframe and also act out of them sooner to react to you getting around it. In Smash 4, it was easy to get around projectile spacing and punish because folks were still in their animation. Example: Cloud's bladebeam could be shielded into a run-up grab. Now Cloud can act sooner out of bladebeam PLUS you're at the disadvantage of having to drop your shield. Short hopping over it isn't usually safe, and Cloud can easily escape or punish a full hop if you want to close the gap. I'm really not making this up - I pay attention to frames and timings, and this game IS spammier.

Faster gameplay is not necessarily more fun for casuals because that type of gameplay ability is generally unavailable to casual players. You're not going to see casual players throwing out frame-perfect reverse aerial dash cancels or even intentional shield parries on a regular basis. You will see casual players spamming projectiles and mashing A+Y because that is and always will be the top meta for casual play. Yes, that kind of play can be overcome, but most people won't be able to do it, and since high-level play is much more difficult if not impossible to pull off online (where a majority of people will spend their time in this game), that's about all there is to it.
You're really pushing it. Projectiles are not that much faster, and actually i find quite a few pretty slow. Rob's gyro comes out really fast, but it was as fast in smash 4, and I rarely see bladebeam being that much of a threat, cloud is so much less annoying (and oppressive) than in smash 4.
(also, with time we'll be able to better tell what kind of balance patches would really help out. it has to be carried out well.)

You can find all the excuses you think there are to complain, but when you start looking for reasons to like the game and willing to learn getting around what you have trouble with, it'll be much easier to enjoy the game and the growing process. Or you can keep being in a struggle-type relationship with the game. It's your call.
I'm opting out of this thread now. Just wanted to chime in. have fun.
 
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REZERO

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#21
tbh I'd probably try to run for the ledge and use the invulnerability to stop their momentum. The problem with spamming aerials is you can read people who spam aerials easy. I'm guessing they're short hopping ftilt with fast drop so what I would do is short hop air dodge in the opposite direction they're ftilting (so behind their character). This will make it so they have to play your game on the stage, they know you will air dodge their shorthop attack so they will have to change their playstyle to something more suitable for you.

Also spamming projectiles against characters like this is good because it will burn out their shield when they reach you so you can contest them with an attack, this means more than likely they will try to grab you because their shield is running out so if you attack, it breaks their grab. Your best bet would be using a neutral since they come out fast typically and then use that distance you gained to spam the projectiles again, eventually they will either adjust to a playstyle they don't like or they will keep doing the same thing and they will lose a stock.

Its all about controlling the field and making them do what you want. You might think projectile spamming is stupid but it is a legitimate strategy to make people change what they are doing.


Watch this video, you see the cloud player is getting spammed to hell but he gets one good read and kills the Chrom. See how he takes advantage of the ledge even if the Chrom player is good at ledge trapping, skip to 3:20 to see this in play.
 
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Slugma128

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#22
The higher you get online, the more jumping opponents you find. Fox is especially nasty with the almost non-existant end lag. And there are more opportunistic cowards, too.

Sometimes I wish that if people stood still for too long, the game would punish them somehow. But they seriously need to fix aerial spam, and not just for a specific character but overall. At worst it becomes a game of patience instead of a game of skill.
 
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Rhus

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#23
Sword swings have blindspots, as a reminder. They might be large, sweeping hitboxes but they are swings - you can weave into their blindspots if you watch carefully.

There's a ton of options to counter them, but each character will approach it differently. Some characters are fast enough to run in and roll behind them, some can shield grab their landing, some can simply stuff their attacks with their own. You have to find how YOUR character can get around it.

I main Fox. Fox has incredibly small hitboxes and very short range. I will laser them till they come close, and will use my burst mobility to weave into their blindspots. Most characters cannot do this, but the majority of the cast has much better hitboxes than Fox does. Find your character's strengths and punish options, move forward from there.
 

Slugma128

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#24
Sword swings have blindspots, as a reminder. They might be large, sweeping hitboxes but they are swings - you can weave into their blindspots if you watch carefully.

There's a ton of options to counter them, but each character will approach it differently. Some characters are fast enough to run in and roll behind them, some can shield grab their landing, some can simply stuff their attacks with their own. You have to find how YOUR character can get around it.

I main Fox. Fox has incredibly small hitboxes and very short range. I will laser them till they come close, and will use my burst mobility to weave into their blindspots. Most characters cannot do this, but the majority of the cast has much better hitboxes than Fox does. Find your character's strengths and punish options, move forward from there.
If you can time your attacks with split second accuracy, and if you can pull of perfect shields flawlessly every time, then what you said sounds like a really good plan. If it is not, it sounds completely unrealistic to practically pull off.
 
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Zachmac

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#25
If you can time your attacks with split second accuracy, and if you can pull of perfect shields flawlessly every time, then what you said sounds like a really good plan. If it is not, it sounds completely unrealistic to practically pull off.
No, it just takes practice. I don't exactly have superhuman reflexes but I'm still able to do it pretty frequently. If my opponent is spamming their moves predictably then that makes timing it all the easier.
 
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Slugma128

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#26
No, it just takes practice. I don't exactly have superhuman reflexes but I'm still able to do it pretty frequently. If my opponent is spamming their moves predictably then that makes timing it all the easier.
No good players spams predictibly. That is what makes them good, but it does not make the moves less spammy. It is like saying it is easy to reflect bullets when spammed. Sure, if they are fired one after another you know how they are coming. But when you have a skilled player using the power of spammy moves, you can not react to that.
 

Zachmac

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#28
I'm starting to wonder if I was just feeding a troll.
 

Slugma128

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
437
#29
I'm starting to wonder if I was just feeding a troll.
Yeah, a troll that registred on this site 12 years before you. I am a troll simply because I do not agree to popular opinion as I have a brain I like to use to think and reach my own conclusions.
 

Rhus

We're going top speed!
Premium
Joined
May 17, 2014
Messages
496
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#31
If you can time your attacks with split second accuracy, and if you can pull of perfect shields flawlessly every time, then what you said sounds like a really good plan. If it is not, it sounds completely unrealistic to practically pull off.
I'm no professional, but I can absolutely weave into and punish an Ike spamming SH FF Nairs.

Which character(s) do you play and who do you have trouble with? You may just not be utilizing all their tools enough.
 

KetchupKaffei

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
164
#32
I disagree because this game allows projectile players to spam more projectiles in a shorter timeframe and also act out of them sooner to react to you getting around it. In Smash 4, it was easy to get around projectile spacing and punish because folks were still in their animation. Example: Cloud's bladebeam could be shielded into a run-up grab. Now Cloud can act sooner out of bladebeam PLUS you're at the disadvantage of having to drop your shield. Short hopping over it isn't usually safe, and Cloud can easily escape or punish a full hop if you want to close the gap. I'm really not making this up - I pay attention to frames and timings, and this game IS spammier.

Faster gameplay is not necessarily more fun for casuals because that type of gameplay ability is generally unavailable to casual players. You're not going to see casual players throwing out frame-perfect reverse aerial dash cancels or even intentional shield parries on a regular basis. You will see casual players spamming projectiles and mashing A+Y because that is and always will be the top meta for casual play. Yes, that kind of play can be overcome, but most people won't be able to do it, and since high-level play is much more difficult if not impossible to pull off online (where a majority of people will spend their time in this game), that's about all there is to it.
What verbal diarrhea did you just type?
I'm sorry, but this literally makes no sense at all.

If I and many others can handle projectile spam online, I'm pretty everyone else can..
I have been playing Melee and PM Netplay mainly for 3 years before playing this game, and that game itself and the projectiles is fast and impactful, but I(literally everyone else) can handle it there.
Here this game is semi fast paste compared Melee and PM, and you're going to say, that it's too fast for online?
Are you serious?

Everyone else can deal with it and get past them, but you apparently.
I guess you can't be bothered to handle situations where you have to really put effort the challenge ahead.

In Smash 4 it was worst because of how floaty and slow the game was. It was a literal chore to run up and punish your opponent because how easily slow everything was your opponent half the time can read what you plan on doing and attack you. Knock you back away from them and rack up damage. Rinse and repeat. You can beat them of course if that's there only play style, but it's annoying to deal with in general because you want to keep things going and moving. People want momentum and speed in a match.

In this game however, despite how fast projectiles are, this game is putting you on your feet and moving because now if that same opponent does that projectile spam here, they wouldn't be able to exactly predict what you are going for since you can bait them quickly and swiftly punish them almost in a blink of an eye.
They have to get moving or they're really dead.
 
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EGsmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
98
#33
What verbal diarrhea did you just type?
I'm sorry, but this literally makes no sense at all.

If I and many others can handle projectile spam online, I'm pretty everyone else can..
I have been playing Melee and PM Netplay mainly for 3 years before playing this game, and that game itself and the projectiles is fast and impactful, but I(literally everyone else) can handle it there.
Here this game is semi fast paste compared Melee and PM, and you're going to say, that it's too fast for online?
Are you serious?

Everyone else can deal with it and get past them, but you apparently.
I guess you can't be bothered to handle situations where you have to really put effort the challenge ahead.

In Smash 4 it was worst because of how floaty and slow the game was. It was a literal chore to run up and punish your opponent because how easily slow everything was your opponent half the time can read what you plan on doing and attack you. Knock you back away from them and rack up damage. Rinse and repeat. You can beat them of course if that's there only play style, but it's annoying to deal with in general because you want to keep things going and moving. People want momentum and speed in a match.

In this game however, despite how fast projectiles are, this game is putting you on your feet and moving because now if that same opponent does that projectile spam here, they wouldn't be able to exactly predict what you are going for since you can bait them quickly and swiftly punish them almost in a blink of an eye.
They have to get moving or they're really dead.
Yes, I see you're perfectly capable of showing how what people type makes no sense to you. What I was pointing out is one example of how there are fewer options to deal with spam with the nerfs to shielding and dodging. This has nothing to do with one's ability (or my ability, for that matter) to deal with spam, but fewer options overall. Projectile spamming is more effective because the opponent is forced into a fewer range of options than before, and the faster pace of the game exacerbates this in online scenarios where it is physically more difficult to weave in and out of projectiles. You're basically funneling your opponent into a head-on approach and in this game the spammer has the advantage of the mixup, not the opponent.

And it's not as you assume where I don't know how to 'deal with it'. I'm perfectly capable of getting through a spam wall, and equally capable of spam walling. What I'm saying is that it's definitively more difficult to achieve the former while much more effective to achieve the latter.
 
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