Black/Light
Smash Master
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What are you talking about?
Importance to the series/ popularity amoung the masses - being well known amoung the masses are all things to look at.
If Stats matter than wth happened to Mew2?
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Counter-Arguments for Lucario's Inclusion in Brawl
- Thread starter Darkurai
- Start date
Importance to the series/ popularity amoung the masses - being well known amoung the masses are all things to look at.
If Stats matter than wth happened to Mew2?
kaid
Smash Master
*Looks around* then what's your problem with Lucario again? Out of all the 4th gen pokemon, he rates among the highest in ALL those catigories.What are you talking about?
Importance to the series/ popularity amoung the masses - being well known amoung the masses are all things to look at.
If Stats matter than wth happened to Mew2?
And the wager is that the pokemon won't have their own stories, anymore than Pit's bow has it's own adventures.
Pluvia's other account
Smash Master
Is everyone forgetting how popular Lucario is? You know, there is only one Riolu egg that you get in the game, Lucario Rank is the highest rank in mystery dungeon, he has his own movie yet he's not a legendary, he has his own merchandise..
The only two Pokemon who opposed him were Munchlax and Deoxys. Funny how Lucario is more popular than them, yet he hasn't been deconfirmed yet..
The only two Pokemon who opposed him were Munchlax and Deoxys. Funny how Lucario is more popular than them, yet he hasn't been deconfirmed yet..
agreed.
anti-lucario thread #1 > anti-lucario thread #2
Reposting some of that goodness from the first thread:
lololololol thats so win
Princess Diana
Amazon
So you want stats to be what gets you into brawl? I guess pikachu has to have a Light Ball around his neck to get into the game and Squirtle and Ivysaur can't be playable either. Oh and we have to have a Stealth Rocks Clause to allow charizard to be playable as well... And since we're going on stats now Garchomp, Salamence, Tyranitar, Metagross, and Dragonite should all be playable! And Blissey and Skarmory should also get in!
Lucario sucks as a pokemon... His stats are horrible! 95 speed makes me laugh insanely. Nearly everything that is faster than him can OHKO him. Also most things slower than that have great defensive stats so he probably won't break through them unless he's holding choice specs or choice band. Nearly everything that can hit him with neutral damage will ohko or 2hko him.
There's only one happiny egg you can get in the game, Gengar and Gardevoir are main characters in the pokemon mystery dungeon game, does it really matter if your legendary or not, almost every pokemon has their own merchandise
Lucario is very popular! Most of his fans are 14 year old girls who draw him having sex with mew and then post it all over deviantart! That's definitely the target audience for brawl!
LinkGadra
Smash Apprentice
Wow. You go off on this total rant about how Lucario sucks, yet your sig suggests Mime Jr. Mime Fricken Jr! Come on, man. Give me a break!
lucario is not going to be in brawl because i dont like him, also because its not assumption that because coming as a protagonist in a movie will give a pokemon a spot in brawl, see at all the legendaryes pokemons protagonists of past movies, only mewtwo made the cut for smash, and the rest are enclosed as pokeballs pokemons ^.^, so yeah, lucario has more chances of coming as a pokeball than coming as a character
Pluvia's other account
Smash Master
What does Items have to do with stats? Why are Squirtle and Ivysaur not allowed to be playable? If you haven't noticed, they already are.. Stealth Rock is a 4th Gen move.. Charizard is 1st Gen.. Why on earth would he not be allowed into the game?
If you want Garchomp, Salamence, Tyranitar, Metagross and Dragonite then who am I to argue? I doubt they'll make it though.
Most things that are slower are Normal or Steel types, but remind me what this has got to do with Brawl again?
You want Mime Jr. in Brawl, I guess you think Happiniy is cool too! And Lucario is the highest rank in Mystery Dungeon, and he is the only Non-Legendary Pokemon to play a central role in a movie. Lucario has his own merchendise.
Do you think that GameFreak are trying to make Lucario popular on purpose? Hint, Hint.
Why are you thinking about 14 year old girls having sex with Lucario..?
Pluvia's other account
Smash Master
Oh and:
That doesn't leave much room for most of them, maybe Darkrai.
Oh and, LUCARIO IS NOT A LEGENDARY
Funny how almost all the legendaries are MASSIVE, or Float.
That doesn't leave much room for most of them, maybe Darkrai.
Oh and, LUCARIO IS NOT A LEGENDARY
Princess Diana
Amazon
If you don't know much about pokemon don't try to counter point a post that needs knowledge of pokemon to do so.
First of all... Go buy another sarcasm detector.
the Light Ball item doubles pikachu's special attack and attack stats.
I have noticed i'm not an idiot, I'm using pokemon that are already in the game to make a point about someone saying that good stats are what gets a pokemon into the game... Are you being sarcastic? I hope you are.
Also I didn't know that they took charizard out of the game when the second gen came which is why he is not getting affected by stealth rocks... (The previous sentence was sarcasm)
I was being sarcastic...
It has nothing to do with brawl. I just don't like Lucario fanboys saying that he's good in the pokemon metagame. And do say this to me, you should have said it to kaid.
I think Happiny's pretty cool, i mean it evolves into a great pokemon. Wow a rank that is so amazing in a game, all the starters could have been main characters. Gardevoir was a mystic guide of some sorts, Gengar was the main antagonist and he turned into an anti-hero later in the game. But being a rank is so much more important. Does it really matter if he's not legendary and is in a movie? I mean he really didn't do anything except get offended by a prepubescent kid and then get his *** kicked by said kid, then kill himself for a rock that looks like a tree. NEARLY EVERY POKEMON HAS THEIR OWN MERCHANDISE... Also Mime Jr. is teh shiz! I want Mime Jr. in brawl and i could support him with a bunch of reasons but I'm not holding my breath for him to get in
CLEFFA FOR BRAWL!!!!1!111!one!! (that was sarcasm by the way since you seem to have trouble recognizing it)
Gamefreak advertised the hell out of every pre release fourth gen pokemon...
Nowhere in my post did it say that... Your dirty mind went straight to that. I said that they draw him having sexual relations with mew... or close to it.
Black/Light
Smash Master
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When I say "masses" I mean "Normal foke". I dont care what gen it is, the pokemon that have been in Smash have all been well known amoung the masses aka normal fock. Not just "pokemon fans" but arvg people who don't play pokemon. Red/ 1st gen starters-for example-are well known amoung the masses. Mew2 is well known amoung the masses. Jpuff and Pika are well known amoung the masses. Lucario. . . IDK one person who knows wth Lucario is if them don't have DP.
And importance to the series means just that. Either in anime or in the games. Red is important to the games and so are the starters. Jpuff had the masses appeal and was comic releaf in the anime. And because of whats happening with Pokemon (they can be un-balled) I think that Meowth will be the next Pokemon new comer because of his mass appeal and anime presence.
Princess Diana
Amazon
I don't think they should be a factor at all...
Ok there is no way that Lucario can survive a Dragon Danced Earthquake unless you like maxed out his hp and defense or something... Seriously the person that was the opposing force must now know anything about ivs or evs and it was probably a modest natured pokemon. Maybe they seem awesome to you because your not that good?
That is cause they weren't released around the same time. If Gallade was released around the same time Lucario was and put in that stupid movie this would be the Anti-Gallade thread.
First of all I feel sorry for them cause they're 18-19 and playing pokemon... Second of all they must not know much about lucario cause he sucks! Infernape is a better Mixed Sweeper than lucario. Even BLAZIKEN is a better Mixed sweeper than Lucario. Decent is not agood word to describe lucario, it gives him too much credit.
Cinder
Smash Master
You're actually right (OMG!!) Stats aren't a good factor, but popularity is, and Lucario=Popular
How do you that isn't the case? Granted, Lucario couldn't survive a DD'd EQ without Substitute or Endure, but those two moves are somewhat common on Lucario, and Endure/Salac Berry/Reversal would destroy any non-flying Pokemon with DD/EQ (not that there are many such Pokemon, but still...)
Right again! Had it been Gallade and the Mystery of Mew, this would be an anti-Gallade thread...oh, and the movie wasn't THAT bad...the ending was cheezy, but meh...
So what if they're 18? I'm turning 18 in a couple of weeks, and I'm going strong in Pokemon...I ain't givin in anytime soon! Oh, and...Blaziken isn't THAT much stronger...only 5 points in the overall base stat total (http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/stat/all.shtml)...it has a good physical attack (better than Lucario), but worse Sp. Attack and much worse speed...granted, Infernape is a little better, but Lucario IS in the top 100 for total base stats, and both of it's attacks rank, so you can't really complain...besides, no Pokemon is perfect, and a team is only as good as its trainer...
You're missing the point, Lucario isn't a special as people are making him out to be. That means that IF he's in, he won't be anything more than a replacement to represent the series, it's not worth taking up a slot for a new franchise to over represent an existing one with a relatively obscure character. Doesn't matter if half the people that play pokemon today love Lucario, half the people that play pokemon are less than a fourth of the people who reconize other hopefuls like megaman, dede, and the othr candidates.
Chepe
Smash Lord
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And how the heck does this matter? The Pokemon series has moved on and expanded. If someone doesnt recognize a newer Pokemon because they dont play anymore, thats just too bad! This is quite possibly the most ridiculous reasoning Ive heard against Lucario... No, they SHOULD NOT appeal to ex-Pokemon players over those who still play and can recognize the newer monsters! Those who still play are the only reason Pokemon remains successful!
I already mentioned that a few pages back, no one argued against it, yet people still use this reasoning?
Cinder
Smash Master
Wow, love the statistics...but where'd ya get them? And since when did Pokemon develop an obscure character? Last I checked, it was second only to the Mario francise...besides, you know Sakurai's probably gonna rep the 4th gen, after all, it is the most recent...maybe it isn't as popular as the 1st gen, but it needs a rep being new and all, for advertisement purposes...look at it this way...it's only getting one more rep than it had in Melee...cuz you know Pichu is completely worthless, and it was just used to rep the most recent generation (how 'bout that), so Lucario replaces Pichu and PT is added...5 reps...seems reasonable to me...
EDIT: Thank you, Chepe! That's a good way to sum it up...
That's what I was saying, he'd only be a replacement. I understand that it's the newest gen, but alot of people stopped paying attention to pokemon as it made more and more games. A game that add a hundred or so characters every few games is bound to be veiwed at watered down or "same game, different names". I do stand behind the idea that megaman is alot more iconic than any 3rd or 4th gen pokemon, I know it could be hard to see as a person who still plays and probably is friends with alot of people who play it too, but a large portion of the gaming crowd don't care about pokemon anymore.
Chepe
Smash Lord
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But since Pokemon is the 2nd most successful of Nintendo's franchises, behind Mario, it deserves to have quite a bit of selectable fighters. And like I said, so some people dont play Pokemon anymore and dont know who Lucario is? TOUGH LUCK.
Heres a list of franchises with more than 10 million units sold, and the amound they have sold. Includes Zelda, it should show you how successful Pokemon really is as a series. So dont anyone else say anything along the lines of "but people dont play the newer games anymore!", because thats just ignorant...
Mario (193 million)
Pokémon (155 million)
The Sims (90 million)
Final Fantasy (75 million)
Tetris (60 million)
Madden NFL (60 million)
The Legend of Zelda (52 million)
Tyrannotaur
Smash Ace
Why would you feel sorry for them? Just because they are playing a game that isn't targeted for their age group? wait.. Pokémon is rated E. Know what else is rated E? Mario. So I would expect that you feel sorry for any one over 18 that plays a Mario game? I doubt it. The Pokémon anime may be targeted for 13 year olds, but the games are for whoever wants to play them. By stereotyping that only little kids play it you have not only offended me but about half of the Pokémon community. I'm 21, I've been playing since Red and Blue. It's something I enjoy. I am not going to stop because someone thinks it makes me immature.
Sorry to explode like that, its a pet peeve of mine.
Lucario wouldn't be chosen for brawl based on the Video Games. Jigglypuff, Pikachu, Pichu and Mewtwo where all chosen for Smash Bros. because of their influence in the anime. Only Pokémon Trainer was chosen because of the video games. If Lucario is in the game it will be because of his anime popularity and not because he is or isn't a good Mixed sweeper.
kaid
Smash Master
That's why I said, out of 4th gen pokemon. 4 originals (Sakurai said Pokemon trainer was one character. While that's his opinion, and therefore debatable, I think people can agree that his opinion can be considered fact) and 1 new pokemon gives Pokemon both it's past and it's present.
Black/Light
Smash Master
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I didn't read your post back than because I didn't see much reason to. I had no idea about your stance was before hand and I just got the whole "the series has "moved on"" was your main point.
NOW your telling me that this one pokemon should be in because pokemon (which is a house hold name I remind you) has "moved on" to newer gens?( It hasn't really "moved on" but just added new mons/game play modes and elements to the game imo seeing as it's still the same thing at heart)
Thats not that good of a reason from where I stand. Useing that same logic this guy would be the trainer with the DP starters as his pokemon http://i16.tinypic.com/29eru2x.jpg
I mean, they are newer and show that pokemon aint just first gen right? It doesn't matter that Red is beatter known amoung the masses or that the 3 starters are the most famose of them all right? They should show that pokemon is newer by throwing in w/e new pokemon they can get their hands on with a fan-base composed of a small number of smash fans. . .right?
(Well I don't personally think that Sakurai cares about gens as much as we do.)
Now, I don't know how Lucaario would "show that pokemon has moved on" just because it's new. What about it is SOOO important to DP? Why him? Pichu is a baby pokemon and that was first seen in the 2nd gen and he was well known amoung th masses for being baby Pika. . . what makes Lucario a "first" in the 4th gen? How does this only apply to him and not other pokemon that you may not think are as likely? Why him over a well known and popular old pokemon like Meowth?
Don't really get why he should be in JUST to show newer gens off if he doesn't rep something NEW about said gen.
He said that it was "I guess you could say using this character is like playing three for the price of one!". Not one character but 3 in one. So yes, there are 4 playable pokemon in brawl as of now.
And I don't really see why we are saperating the 4th gen as if it's writen somewhere that thats where the next pokemon will come from. For all we know it could be the only pokemon he showed interest in on the poll(Gard).
kaid
Smash Master
That's right. "THIS CHARACTER." Sakurai consideres the whole package as one character.
Black/Light
Smash Master
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Because once you click on Pokemon Trainer you end up with 3 characters. Thats right, 3 playable characters.
I guess my point about lucario is that even though pokemon is quite popular, pokemon is worlds apart from most games as far as character developement goes, and characters that are being reguarded are icons of all time. Im AGREEING that it's likely he's in, since he does seem to be the most popular out of the new gen games, and we need a replacement for pichu/mewtwo. This isn't lucario vs the other pokemon, pokemon franchise vs another because of the sheer number of characters in the series, if he's in, he's no important enough to take up a whole new slot. If yoy don't see pichu or mewtwo announcd, you can probably expect SOME pokemon to be there instead.
kaid
Smash Master
Show me where Sakurai calls them characters. Not things that give them character-like traits, I want SAKURAI calling them CHARACTERS.
Black/Light
Smash Master
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^^^
"I guess you could say using this character is like playing three for the price of one!"
3 what you might ask? 3 Characters.
"I guess you could say using this character is like playing three for the price of one!"
3 what you might ask? 3 Characters.
kaid
Smash Master
sim·i·le (sĭm'ə-lē) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=simile)
n. A figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared, often in a phrase introduced by like or as, as in "How like the winter hath my absence been" or "So are you to my thoughts as food to life" (Shakespeare).
Since one side is a character, the "Like" in the sentance implies the others are not.
n. A figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared, often in a phrase introduced by like or as, as in "How like the winter hath my absence been" or "So are you to my thoughts as food to life" (Shakespeare).
Since one side is a character, the "Like" in the sentance implies the others are not.
Black/Light
Smash Master
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Maybe that would be the case. . . if we hadn't been shown that he WAS directly referring to the ablitity to play as 3 different characters when you choose this ONE character.
You are trying to make this way too complex just to wiggle out a reason.
kaid
Smash Master
No, he didn't. You can play 3 MOVESETS... which is LIKE 3 characters... but he said it's only 1 character.
Black/Light
Smash Master
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"I guess you could say using this character is like playing three for the price of one!"
Where did he say 3 move sets?
He was directly refering to there being 3 different characters you can play as when you choose red.
It's not like he magicaly gets more time to make other characters when he did these. He made 3 characters and put them under this character's name...and than said that you could say that this is like playing 3 characters once you choose this ONE character.
If having a complete move-set/ animations for EVER possiable thing that can happen in the game to a character/ stat balancing/ being fully controllable isn't a character than what do you call a character?
Where did he say 3 move sets?
He was directly refering to there being 3 different characters you can play as when you choose red.
It's not like he magicaly gets more time to make other characters when he did these. He made 3 characters and put them under this character's name...and than said that you could say that this is like playing 3 characters once you choose this ONE character.
If having a complete move-set/ animations for EVER possiable thing that can happen in the game to a character/ stat balancing/ being fully controllable isn't a character than what do you call a character?
kaid
Smash Master
He doesn't magically get more time. He HAS time.
And it doesn't matter what I consider a character. What matters is what SAKURAI considers a character, and he has never directly called the pokemon anything except the Trainer's weapons. He concedes that it's LIKE having 3 characters, but he continues with "For the price of one!"
And it doesn't matter what I consider a character. What matters is what SAKURAI considers a character, and he has never directly called the pokemon anything except the Trainer's weapons. He concedes that it's LIKE having 3 characters, but he continues with "For the price of one!"
Black/Light
Smash Master
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Time is ALWAYS a facture. Red makes for less time/ space and man power than a reg character would need.
SAKURAI said that they where 3 characters in one.
And a BOOM is a weapon, a ARROW is a weapon, Wario's BIKE is a weapon. . . these are 3 full blown characters.
And he said "for the price of one" because they are TOGETHER. You choose one slot and you get 3 characters to play as. Simple as that. . .
And here. . .
"Characters like Pit, Meta Knight and the Pokémon Trainer’s Charizard are envied at first glance for their wings."
But if you want to carry this on than I ask you to join me on the Trainer Red thread.
Black/Light
Smash Master
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I mean't "takes up". . .can't seem to edit.
Black/Light
Smash Master
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"Takes up more". . .
Pluvia's other account
Smash Master
Pokemon trainer only takes up one spot, notice how it says:
"Pokemon Trainer's Charizard"
Black/Light
Smash Master
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What else would they refer to him as? He is a captured pokemon
. And notice how he said that as if Char was a character and not "Characters like Pitt, MK and "tools for use in battle" like Pokemon Trainers Char can glide". That was my point.And where was all this when Sheik was in Melee? From what I remember melee had 26 characters and 5 where from LoZ. . . whats different about Red?
There are 4 playable pokemon in the game at this point. . .I don't see why a "slot" or place on the selection screen matters in this case.
And again, join me on the Red thread if you want to talk about Red.
Pluvia's other account
Smash Master
I ain't going to change your opinion, I'm just going to wait till Lucario appears on the Dojo website.What else would they refer to him as? He is a captured pokemon
And where was all this when Sheik was in Melee? From what I remember melee had 26 characters and 5 where from LoZ. . . whats different about Red?
There are 4 playable pokemon in the game at this point. . .I don't see why a "slot" or place on the selection screen matters in this case.
And again, join me on the Red thread if you want to talk about Red.
Black/Light
Smash Master
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Yes, lets just wait to see what he shows up on the dojo site as (Ball or PC). . . or if he shows up at all.
Pluvia's other account
Smash Master
Oh I'm sure he'll show up.Yes, lets just wait to see what he shows up on the dojo site as (Ball or PC). . . or if he shows up at all.
pineappleupsetshark
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2007
- Messages
- 482
Personally, I say Death to All "Anti" Threads!
Anyhoo, one of the strongest arguments against Lucario has been destroyed by Sakurai.
Obviously, the 4th generation is integrated just as much as the 3rd. Drifloon and Munchlax are already both in, one in the background of a stage, the other as a PokeBall Pokemon.
Another argument is that there are other 4th generationers more deserving of the spot.
Well, Munchlax is gone. So, that knock it down a peg or two.
Let's look at every other proposed candidate with any reasonable shot of repping D/P.
Pachirisu-
Easy to make, considering all they really have to do is build an un-nerfed Pichu at about Pika size, with a massive spiky tail. The problem really is that while Pachirisu may be on a lot of products now, it doesn't have the same status as Lucario. I mean, it is an awesome skwirrel,
and adorable to boot, and it has a prominent role on the anime, but Lucario is still the better pick. In my ideal fantasy world, Pokemon Trainer is the 3rd gen. rep., and both Pachirisu and Lucario are playable. In any rate, Pachi is my No. 2 pick, after Lucario.
Lopunny-
Lol. No one even knew about this Pokemon until the end of September. The major reaction was in the hentai community, which used it as their new mascot of psychotic furry hentai.
So...that's its claim to fame. Please never mention it again, B/L.
Mime Jr.-
Gets points for being pre-release and having a semi-important anime role. But in the end, it's not particularly popular, and Munchlax was far more marketed. A definite PokeBall Pokemon, if I ever saw one.
Porygon-Z-
Would be very lucky to be a PokeBall Pokemon. It's so ridiculously hard to get that few people bother with it, even if it is God Tier or something.
Any other suggestions for me to ridicule?
Anyhoo, one of the strongest arguments against Lucario has been destroyed by Sakurai.
Obviously, the 4th generation is integrated just as much as the 3rd. Drifloon and Munchlax are already both in, one in the background of a stage, the other as a PokeBall Pokemon.
Another argument is that there are other 4th generationers more deserving of the spot.
Well, Munchlax is gone. So, that knock it down a peg or two.
Let's look at every other proposed candidate with any reasonable shot of repping D/P.
Pachirisu-
Easy to make, considering all they really have to do is build an un-nerfed Pichu at about Pika size, with a massive spiky tail. The problem really is that while Pachirisu may be on a lot of products now, it doesn't have the same status as Lucario. I mean, it is an awesome skwirrel,
and adorable to boot, and it has a prominent role on the anime, but Lucario is still the better pick. In my ideal fantasy world, Pokemon Trainer is the 3rd gen. rep., and both Pachirisu and Lucario are playable. In any rate, Pachi is my No. 2 pick, after Lucario.
Lopunny-
Lol. No one even knew about this Pokemon until the end of September. The major reaction was in the hentai community, which used it as their new mascot of psychotic furry hentai.
So...that's its claim to fame. Please never mention it again, B/L.
Mime Jr.-
Gets points for being pre-release and having a semi-important anime role. But in the end, it's not particularly popular, and Munchlax was far more marketed. A definite PokeBall Pokemon, if I ever saw one.
Porygon-Z-
Would be very lucky to be a PokeBall Pokemon. It's so ridiculously hard to get that few people bother with it, even if it is God Tier or something.
Any other suggestions for me to ridicule?