Counter-Arguments for Lucario's Inclusion in Brawl

[PsychoIncarnate]

Why the hell is Lucario steel???

I don't see any **** metal on his body?

 

[kaid]

For the type resistances, obvoiusly. He takes nothing from poison or Sandstorm, and he has an ability that makes him immune to flinching. That's practically a personality right there.

And he DOES have those spikes. They could be metal...

 

[poishrom]

Technically, Lucario wasn't the first non-legendary title character- that belongs to Mystery of the Unown. But he IS the first pokemon since Mewtwo to actually get an independent, emotional backstory, which provides fodder for SubEm.

As for the pic from Sandman's thread... I find it amusing, because Lucario's immune to all forms of Toxic Gas, because of his steel type. Wario and Bowser fail in that pic.

i saw that pic too i thought it was funny , yeah i agree with you kaid.

 

[SubparSmashBrother]

Deoxys and Munchlax are Pokeballed?

Popular Pokemon, deconfirmed!!

 

[locke117]

lucario should be in brawl he is very popular and is perfect for smash bros i dont see him not being a playable character he better not be pokeballed

 

[Super Smash Master]

Pikachu, Jiggs, M2, PT, Lucario...I only count five...and please don't tell me you're counting all of PT's Pokemon separately...people hate that...extra disc space, yes, but it would be five SLOTS, and that's perfect...

Lucario FTW!!!

@Betrayed: Lucario is one of...no wait...THE most popular fourth generation (Diamond/Pearl) Pokemon...it's the first non-legendary to be the main star of a movie, it's an awesome Steel/Fighting mix in the games, it was MADE to be in Brawl!!

They all have original movesets. They all are their own character.

 

[Spartan_187]

Your reasons suck. What happened to Deoxys and Knuckle Joe don't affect Lucario's chances, either negatively or possitively. If anything, you are generic anti-Lucario poster number 2746.

Actully, number 274618.....
Remember, Sandman locked down his own thread.
Oh, and one reason he probibly posted this thread is because NOBODY posts on the "Lucario Shrine". . . . . ?

Lucario for Brawl!!!

 

[Black/Light]

Technically, Lucario wasn't the first non-legendary title character- that belongs to Mystery of the Unown. But he IS the first pokemon since Mewtwo to actually get an independent, emotional backstory, which provides fodder for SubEm.

If Lucario where to get in it would be a random lucario. . . unless it has a trainer. There for, no, Subem has no reason to use that movie.

As for the pic from Sandman's thread... I find it amusing, because Lucario's immune to all forms of Toxic Gas, because of his steel type. Wario and Bowser fail in that pic.

If Lucario has the least bit of sense of smell I surely think he would be ofended at someone farting in his face. . .

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

*Dies laughing*
Darkurai? You sir, win the internets. I LOL'ed so hard at that opening post I nearly wet myself.

Logical too.

 

[kaid]

If Lucario where to get in it would be a random lucario. . . unless it has a trainer. There for, no, Subem has no reason to use that movie.

When you get right down to it, the Lucario in that movie IS a random Lucario.

In otherwords, Sakurai can use whatever sources he wants. (Does anyone remember where "Surfing Pikachu" originated? I KNOW it appeared in Pokemon Snap...)

 

[Cinder]

If Lucario where to get in it would be a random lucario. . . unless it has a trainer. There for, no, Subem has no reason to use that movie.

If Lucario has the least bit of sense of smell I surely think he would be ofended at someone farting in his face. . .

When you get right down to it, the Lucario in that movie IS a random Lucario.

In otherwords, Sakurai can use whatever sources he wants. (Does anyone remember where "Surfing Pikachu" originated? I KNOW it appeared in Pokemon Snap...)

I think Kaid has a point...but there's something I'd like to add: you said "unless it has a trainer"...your argument was ruined by that...its trainer can easily be Aaron...which would be the movie Lucario (which, as Kaid said, is a random Lucario)

 

[Black/Light]

When you get right down to it, the Lucario in that movie IS a random Lucario.

. . .How is THAT random? It's a Lucario with a back story dealing with Aarron. . . .I don't think the whole breed has a back story dealing with Aarron.

In otherwords, Sakurai can use whatever sources he wants. (Does anyone remember where "Surfing Pikachu" originated? I KNOW it appeared in Pokemon Snap...)

(It was in pokemon yellow.)

And sure, he could do w/e he wants. . . does this mean that Lucario's back story in the anime is a + for Lucario over other pokemon? No.

Does Char HAVE to have gotten his a** handed to him by the whole Char vill and trained with them for years after that for his SubEm like Ash's in the anime? No.

Does Squirt have to have been from the Squrt Squawn like the one in Ash's team for SubEm just because one was in the anime? No

you said "unless it has a trainer"...your argument was ruined by that...its trainer can easily be Aaron...which would be the movie Lucario

One, it would be the trainer Aarron is based off of from the games like Ash was to TR (Aarron aint in the games). Two, random means that it's not one perticalur Lucario. There for if it's a "random Lucario" it's not that one Lucario from that one movie now is it?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

. . .How is THAT random? It's a Lucario with a back story dealing with Aarron. . . .I don't think the whole breed has a back story dealing with Aarron.

(It was in pokemon yellow.)

And sure, he could do w/e he wants. . . does this mean that Lucario's back story in the anime is a + for Lucario over other pokemon? No.

Does Char HAVE to have gotten his a** handed to him by the whole Char vill and trained with them for years after that for his SubEm like Ash's in the anime? No.

Does Squirt have to have been from the Squrt Squawn like the one in Ash's team for SubEm just because one was in the anime? No

One, it would be the trainer Aarron is based off of from the games like Ash was to TR (Aarron aint in the games). Two, random means that it's not one perticalur Lucario. There for if it's a "random Lucario" it's not that one Lucario from that one movie now is it?

The movie Lucario died...

 

[Black/Light]

The movie Lucario died...

Tell that to kaid. . . he wants "Movie Lucario".

 

[Chepe]

I wont be too bothered if Lucario doesnt make it, but as a current Pokemon fan I think he should be in to show that the series has moved on. It doesnt look good to stay in the original 151 forever, because there are new favorites out there, ones revered by the RELEVANT fans of the series. You know, the ones who still play the games and ensure that the series continues to be successful? It would just be a bad move for Sakurai not to include Lucario as playable.

Seriously, Deoxys and Munchlax were the real competition for Lucario, and since theyre out, I think it is very likely that Lucario is in. Why do I believe this? Because there is no doubt in my mind that Sakurai paid Gamefreak a visit for ideas/models/research/etc for development of Pokemon content in Brawl. And anyone who still follows Pokemon will know that Gamefreak spoils Lucario, they hyped him up lots before D/P came out. Even in the game itself they make it a special one time obtainable and gave it a powerful movepool and typing. In Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, the best rank one can get was the LUCARIO Ranking. Its pretty obvious Gamefreak holds him up high.

What would this all mean? That while Sakurai dug into the Pokemon series, Lucario is sure to have come up at one point or another. And if Lucario was mentioned specifically by Gamefreak, it would be easy to imagine them suggesting Lucario to Sakurai as a playable fighter. He even has a persona from the anime to draw upon, just like most of the playable Pokemon in Smash. Its a good fit.

Of course, I can see Lucario being a Pokeball Pokemon, but I believe he wont be because of his relevance in the newest installments of the Pokemon series...

 

[kaid]

Actually, I want a Lucario who expresses the personality of the anime one. The same personality was implied in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, the wave-using pokemon hero.

And when you start throwing around terms like "does he HAVE to" you start to sound like Sandman.

 

[Black/Light]

Actually, I want a Lucario who expresses the personality of the anime one. The same personality was implied in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, the wave-using pokemon hero.

And when you start throwing around terms like "does he HAVE to" you start to sound like Sandman.

. . . When was he seen in that game? Sure, he was a "legendary pokemon hero". . . doesn't mean he acted like the non-human-trusting sad puppy from the movie.

And IDK what Sandman said back on his thread but I really don't think I sound like him. This is simple logic. . . your assuming that Lucario's one role in the anime showing off "persona" and "back history" are a + for it to be in brawl some how and that it's SubEm would be based on that.

I just gave you some pokemon to look at that have both of these (Anima person/ back history).

 

[kaid]

Both of your selected "characters" arn't the main focus of their character. Pokemon Trainer is the one who gets backstory, not his tools. You don't see big backstory for the Master Sword, to you? just a pedestal.

And that's why I said it was only an implication that the Legendary Pokemon Hero Lucario has a personality like in Mew and the Wave Guiding Hero, Lucario.

 

[Mysteryfox1]

I have some reasons and I'm not even a hater first noone I know has ever heard of him I heard of him when I'd come to this forum ofcourse he would be a cool character but why should exactly he get in there are tons of characters and some are a lot more important to there franchise then lucario is to pokemon

 

[veil222]

I really don't care for pokemon anymore, the origonal 150 are still identifyable to me, but it just seemed like they ran out of origonality after that. The only reson I'm stating my opinion, is because alot of people share it. The reason this makes lucario les likely to be tacked on to the current pokemon list (he's still just as likely to be someone's replacement), is that alot of people would be really annoyed if something that they felt is "Another random funny looking pokemans" ursurped one of the characters they wanted to see in brawl. I'd say just as many people would be annoyed by another pokemons inclusion, as there would be people contented by it. For that reason, I think, if lucario is in, he's a replacement, keeping the number of pokemon reps down to 4 or 5.

 

[kaid]

^ it would be five. He would be replacing Pichu as the "New Gen" rep.

 

[Black/Light]

Both of your selected "characters" arn't the main focus of their character. Pokemon Trainer is the one who gets backstory, not his tools. You don't see big backstory for the Master Sword, to you? just a pedestal.

And that's why I said it was only an implication that the Legendary Pokemon Hero Lucario has a personality like in Mew and the Wave Guiding Hero, Lucario.

Actually, as it was said on the site, they are all 3 characters in one. Sure, their subEm story should probly be about Red AND his pokemon but thats no to say that they can't each have a back history of some kind.

And their not "tools", if anything Red is simply the "tool" used to link you to playing as the Pokemon (And you don't actually know if Link will or will not have a story about the master sword. )

 

[kaid]

Rereading the actual Dojo posts...

"No way! The Pokémon Trainer has finally arrived. And it looks like he doesn’t do his fighting directly.
Instead, he uses the three Pokémon with him—Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard—to do the fighting for him."

"I guess you could say using this character is like playing three for the price of one!"

"The Pokémon Trainer commands three types of Pokémon. His down special move is a Pokémon Change, so each Pokémon has three special moves!"

I see the trainer as the only one actually reffered to as a character, the pokemon being purely subordinate to him. Can you show me where you get otherwise?

 

[Black/Light]

Look at the special moves. It's not "Pokemon trainer's Up b" listing the up Bs for all 3, it's "ivy up b". It's the fact that the only ones you actually directly control are the pokemon which is what Im getting at. Red is just the middle man.

Theres actually nothing stating that he would not have some form of back story dealing with his pokemon in some way or history of their capsures so whats your point?

 

[kaid]

So you disagree with how Sakurai is describing Pokemon trainer as the character, and how the pokemon are his weapons?

 

[0rion]

Italic Text is Generic Lucario Fan #9087
Bold Text is Me
Red Text is Cinder405

Counter Arguments for Lucario's Inclusion in Brawl
Thank you for coming, Generic Lucario Fan #9087.
Glad to be here.
Shall we get started?
Certainly.

I saw the title of the topic before you changed it.
I'm sure you did. Thing is, I mis-labeled it like I did with my Sonic video on YouTube. So I corrected my mistake.

You think Lucario shouldn't be in Brawl? Hater.
Hater? Me? Quite the opposite. I love Lucario. It's an awesome Pokémon. I just don't think it should have a playable spot in Brawl.

If you like him so much, why don't you support him?
Just because I like him doesn't mean he should be in Brawl. I like those generic Space Pirates from Metroid. Should they be in Brawl.
No.
Why not? I like them.

Lucario is important to the Pokémon franchise!
Uh...how?
He has a movie.
So? Deoxys has a movie. Look what happened to him.

And Jigglypuff is important!?
Well, Jigglypuff was a recurring anime character.
But that's the anime! It has nothing to do with the games!
Pikachu says Hi.

He's a legendary Pokémon!
No, it's not.
But he has a movie!
(slap) Even if it was legendary, that doesn't necessarily mean it'll be playable. Need I point out every legendary Pokémon except Mewtwo?

He'd be a good fighter! He's athletic and powerful!
So's Knuckle Joe.

He's a popular Pokémon! That means he's definetaly in, right?
Again, Deoxys.

Why do you keep bringing up Deoxys?
Because everyone thought IT'D be playable. And look what-
Don't finish that sentence.

Still, Lucario looks cool. Deoxys looks like crap.
And Mewtwo's design is cool?

DUDE! LOOK AT MY SIG!
What the-How'd you get in my house!?
Well, you need a new front door.
Gah! And as for your sig, I clearly said I'm not a hater. Now get out of my house.
I dunno. I like it in here.
Yeah, it's cool.
GET OUT! ALL OF YOU!

And so, there are my counter-arguments. If anyone has an argument, I'll gladly think of a counter-statement and add it.

Nah man nah, you don't love Lucario. I'm not feelin you at all. If you truly did love da absolute tightest anubis like canine creature that I've ever seen then you would have never in your right mind made this thread sayin that he doesn't deserve a spot in Brawl in the first place. Sorry cuz, but I want Lucario in Brawl and he's just way way too of a pimpish character not to make the cut.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Mewtwo looks "cooler" than Lucario...that's what I have to say to that

 

[Black/Light]

So you disagree with how Sakurai is describing Pokemon trainer as the character, and how the pokemon are his weapons?

Red is just what he is in the games. . . someone there to rely your orders to the pokemon. YOU have full control over the pokemon tho. (And thats what Sakurai said)

So whats your point?

 

[kaid]

My point is that Sakurai has stated that Pokemon Trainer is the character, who uses pokemon as weapons. The pokemon therefore, are unimportant, and will almost certiantly remain in the pokeballs during SubEm except just before a fight.

Lucario, on the other hand, is a hero in his own right. His movie says so, and PMD says so. He is stoic enough to ignore Sandstorm, Poison, and Flinch effects completely, and he easily picks up moves it takes legendarys like Mewtwo years (level 99) to learn. He has more personality in his raw, in-game stats than many pokemon get in their entire anime appearences.

 

[veil222]

My point is, it doesn't matter how awesome lucario is, because he's only that awesome to people who've played the games and watched the movies AND agree with you. There's just as many people if not more that will play brawl that don't like lucario for their own reasons, don't want more pokemon because they think the slot would bebetter filled my another franchise, or don't even know who lucario is (like me). His apparent awesomeness doesn't really matter because no matter how great he is, he's still one out of i don't even know how many pokemon now.

 

[kaid]

His apparent awesomeness doesn't really matter because no matter how great he is, he's still one out of i don't even know how many pokemon now.

Well, the same can be said of any pokemon, indeed, even Pikachu himself.

Pikachu of course gets in first, however, because of his mascot status. But Jiggs? Pichu? how do you explain them, if they are just two of 252 pokemon? (at the time)

 

[veil222]

Pichu, because he's a pikachu clone, and everyone knows how insanelt popular that electric rat was at the time. Jiggs, probably because of the anime/cartoon episode where she doned the headband. Someone probably got it in their head to make her a hardcore (satus wise) fighter. Only reason mew, another insanely popular pokemon for it's rarity in her various forms, is because she had probably been chalked in for a pokeball already, hence, mewtwo, the equally popular clone... ish.... thing. But really, that's jus tmy ideas for why they are in, and others aren't.... popularity, and being in the origonal 150 set almost EVERYONE (notjust fans) can identify, thus, icon status.

 

[Black/Light]

My point is that Sakurai has stated that Pokemon Trainer is the character, who uses pokemon as weapons. The pokemon therefore, are unimportant, and will almost certiantly remain in the pokeballs during SubEm except just before a fight.

Again, you have 0 proof that "the pokemon will stay in the pokeballs in SubEm". He is a character that DOESN'T fight and is only there to connect you to the 3 pokemon. . . how do you KNOW that his only use in the game (to connect you to the 3 pokemon) will not appear in SebEm?

Lucario, on the other hand, is a hero in his own right. His movie says so, and PMD says so. He is stoic enough to ignore Sandstorm, Poison, and Flinch effects completely, and he easily picks up moves it takes legendarys like Mewtwo years (level 99) to learn. He has more personality in his raw, in-game stats than many pokemon get in their entire anime appearences.

*Yawn* Stats in-game mean nothing and you KEEP calling him some kind of hero. He was never in PMD, only a rank with a few mintions from a few characters. Thats like haveing the "Champ" in inplace of Red because the champ is the master pokemon trainer which is what you aim to be in the game.

And you know dam well that Jpuff= 2nd most popular pokemon in Japan and Pichu=easy last min clone of the main character of it's series (just like Doc/ y.Link/ Falco are).

 

[kaid]

But I'm sure you can agree that having only characters from the FIRST GAME of a series is counterproductive. Indeed, if that were a hard rule, we'd have to throw out Bowser, Luigi, Ness, Adult Link, and most of the potential newcomers.

Pichu was a representitive of the newest generation at the time, Just as Roy repped his upcoming game. Just as Roy is expected to be dropped here at smashboards, Pichu is also expected t drop... and that leaves "Newest Generation" open.

That reduces the list from 490-odd pokemon, to just the ones new to D/P. Of that smaller list, Lucario stands out.

 

[Black/Light]

But I'm sure you can agree that having only characters from the FIRST GAME of a series is counterproductive. Indeed, if that were a hard rule, we'd have to throw out Bowser, Luigi, Ness, Adult Link, and most of the potential newcomers.

Who says that they can't have only characters from the first gen? They don't have to rep the newest game. . . look at Ike. He is in the newest FE game yet looks like his self from the earlyer games.

Pichu was a representitive of the newest generation at the time, Just as Roy repped his upcoming game.

That was back when there where only 2 gens. If he where to choose any pokemon not of the first gen it would have been from the "newest gen". Whose to say that we wont get a 3rd/ 2nd gen pokemon? Hell, he even un-balled Char so now balled mon copuld have gotten in when they where choosing. . . maybe the next pokemon new-comer will be Meowth.
(Plus the thing was uber popular at some point and it was a easy clone. They needed clones and the only other Pika clone would be Raichu. )

 

[kaid]

Again, you have 0 proof that "the pokemon will stay in the pokeballs in SubEm". He is a character that DOESN'T fight and is only there to connect you to the 3 pokemon. . . how do you KNOW that his only use in the game (to connect you to the 3 pokemon) will not appear in SebEm?

Because Sakurai says he's the character. You can say what you want about them "effectively" being characters, because they have movesets, but Sakurai has spoken. HE is the one who fights... but he does so by using pokemon. While this is not definitive proof, I'll wager you wins online that I am correct.

*Yawn* Stats in-game mean nothing and you KEEP calling him some kind of hero. He was never in PMD, only a rank with a few mintions from a few characters. Thats like haveing the "Champ" in inplace of Red because the champ is the master pokemon trainer which is what you aim to be in the game.

The characters referred to him as a hero, and the title of his movie called him the wave guiding hero. THAT is why I call him a hero.

And you know dam well that Jpuff= 2nd most popular pokemon in Japan and Pichu=easy last min clone of the main character of it's series (just like Doc/ y.Link/ Falco are).

Explain why Pichu hurts himself if he is JUST an easy clone, with no effort behind him.

 

[kaid]

...Wait... So, the only possible source for pokemon is the game... but stats don't matter? What does that leave, appearence?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

...Wait... So, the only possible source for pokemon is the game... but stats don't matter? What does that leave, appearence?

The idea and lore

 

[Salaad]

lookareeoh 4 Brawl plox.

 

[Black/Light]

Because Sakurai says he's the character. You can say what you want about them "effectively" being characters, because they have movesets, but Sakurai has spoken. HE is the one who fights... but he does so by using pokemon. While this is not definitive proof, I'll wager you wins online that I am correct.

. . .Thats like saying the man fights when he take his dog to a dog fight/ makes it attack someone.
Yea.. . makes alot of sense (Sakurai even said that he doesn't fight but his pokemon do).
And your beatting me that his pokemon will not show up in his story on SubEm? Ok. . .

The characters referred to him as a hero, and the title of his movie called him the wave guiding hero. THAT is why I call him a hero.

The game you are talking about is a pokemon HERO game. Thats what they do. . .save pokemon and junk. Theres a crap load of Hero pokemon in there. And Lucario was called that in the movie because he saved that kingdom using wave. . . not because his whole breed is a "hero breed".

I will wager that Pika will be a good guy in his SubEm story.

Explain why Pichu hurts himself if he is JUST an easy clone, with no effort behind him.

. . . Did I every say it didn't have any effort put into it? I said that it's a clone made last min because it has a moveset taken directly from another character that looks like it. I can assure you that he was easier to make than Red or Diddy Knog which mean it was faster to make a clone than to make a full fledg new moveset for him. . .