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Could Steve have been switched out of the original fighter pass with Byleth?

Who was originally going to be the fifth fighter?

  • Byleth. Sakurai had early access to Fire Emblem plans. He never changed it.

    Votes: 33 51.6%
  • Steve. Yep, Sakurai was so uninterested that he delayed him with two Nintendo reps.

    Votes: 9 14.1%
  • Neither. It was changed to Byleth, but Steve never was planned. We never saw the real 5th.

    Votes: 2 3.1%
  • Maybe Sakurai lied and the DLC wasn't predetermined?

    Votes: 3 4.7%
  • Don't know, don't care.

    Votes: 16 25.0%
  • SEPHIROTH!!!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sora. He won the Smash Ballot but Sakurai couldn't get the rights from Disney on time.

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    64
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Sean Wheeler

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Honestly, this is a non-issue to me since we were going to get both Byleth and Steve anyway so it really doesn't matter which Challengers Pass Byleth is in as long as they got released. We really can't assume Challengers Pass 2 is going to be all Nintendo characters.
True, but it is fun to speculate how things might have happened. And Byleth switching DLC spots with Steve makes a whole lot more sense than saying "Sakurai has picked a then-unreleased Fire Emblem game's character, but Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was released too late, so here's Rex's costume instead." And no, I'm not assuming Challengers Pass 2 is going to be all Nintendo characters. I'm hoping for Crash Bandicoot, Lara Croft and Shantae. Perhaps Rex & Pyra making it into Fighters Pass 2 would be cool too. But we can't guarantee those characters because fan predictions of the Fighters Pass are always wrong, even when math, statistics and probability are applied.
 

BUFF MY PUFF

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You know what? I probably shouldn't have put in "Don't Know, Don't Care" in the poll.

Also,
One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong here.

JokerThird-PartySega/AtlusPersona 5New franchiseSeptember 15 2016Pre-Rex
HeroThird-PartySquare EnixDragon Quest XI (default)
Dragon Quest III (alt)
New franchiseJuly 29 2017 (default)
February 10 1988 (alt)
Pre-Rex
Banjo & KazooieThird-PartyMicrosoft/RareBanjo-KazooieNew franchiseJune 29 1998Pre-Rex
TerryThird-PartySNKFatal Fury: King of FightersNew franchiseNovember 25 1991Pre-Rex
BylethFirst-PartyNintendo/Intelligent SystemsFire Emblem: Three HousesOverrepped franchiseJuly 26 2019Post-Rex

And here is one more that would be more consistent with the others than the last one.
SteveThird-PartyMicrosoft/MojangMinecraftNew franchiseNovember 18 2011Pre-Rex
Yes, but why does it matter? Not tryin to get a jab at you with "nobody cares" I'm just saying facts
 

Sean Wheeler

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If you don't care or it doesn't matter to you, why are you even coming to this thread? Aren't there better forum threads to read and reply? I could come to any Newcomer Speculation thread I don't care about to ask "Why does it matter if he make it to Smash?" but that would just come off as annoying and I've already gotten in trouble for bashing Sora's thread. Please if you are to respond to the thread, don't question the point. Just argue why you think Byleth was always planned or why Byleth may have been switched. I'm going to go remove the "Don't Know, Don't Care" option from the poll.

EDIT: Um... I guess I can't remove choices from the poll, could I?
 
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BUFF MY PUFF

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If you don't care or it doesn't matter to you, why are you even coming to this thread? Aren't there better forum threads to read and reply? I could come to any Newcomer Speculation thread I don't care about to ask "Why does it matter if he make it to Smash?" but that would just come off as annoying and I've already gotten in trouble for bashing Sora's thread. Please if you are to respond to the thread, don't question the point. Just argue why you think Byleth was always planned or why Byleth may have been switched. I'm going to go remove the "Don't Know, Don't Care" option from the poll.

EDIT: Um... I guess I can't remove choices from the poll, could I?
tbh i dont know how i got here think i was searching something about steve and this came up, i will leave your conspiracy theories alone
 

DonkaFjord

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Tbh not a big fan of the "Sakurai lies/is a massive troll" portrayal he sometimes gets.

Most of his "deceitful" behavior can be attributed to thle language barrier issue, Japanese buisness culture, and/or a legal/buisness issue.

For example- in the showcase video it is mentioned that the original minecraft soundtrack was too calm for Smash. However, in his Famitsu column he elaborates that it was due to unfortunate circumstances and that some of the arrangements planned had to be stopped halfway through. I personally believe it is implied that it had to do with legal issues. Which sucks cause the OST is really nice.

So was it because the translation wasn't good in the video? Was the original Japanese to vague to accurately translate? Did he want to withhold the real reason on a Nintendo sponsored piece of media so it didn't look like it was the opinion or stance of Nintendo? Etc. Etc.

It's not very cut and dry. Besides, Nintendo were the ones to pick the DLC fighters with Sakurai only having imput on the possibilities.

People should check out the translated famitsu article if interested. It's fun to get a bit of insight.
 

Sean Wheeler

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Yeah, it's like when he mentioned he couldn't give Mai Shirunai a cameo because "Smash is for good little boys and girls" but it was really because CERO wouldn't let her in the game, even though they let a stripping witch in as a fighter. But that is another inconsistent issue around Smash development for another thread. I'd like to know when Nintendo and Sakurai picked the DLC. Could they have decided on Banjo before consulting Microsoft? If they had decided on a third-party character before talking to the owners, would they keep begging for that character until that deal could be fulfilled or would they have to change those plans when they get a "no?" If Sakurai's DLC plans were "finalized" in January 2018 and Banjo-Kazooie were negotiated in March 2018, that would be two months for Microsoft to decline. And Sakurai had a heated phone call with Square. I initially thought it was about Cloud, but maybe it was about Hero. If any of these developers reject the deal with Smash, then Nintendo and Sakurai would have to pick new characters in the place of what couldn't make it in. So maybe in 2015, Sakurai had picked five third-party characters from a list Nintendo provided him and Rex couldn't make it in because by the time the game released, the third-party companies had already agreed to allowing their characters in Smash so Sakurai didn't need to change up the plans. Until the work on Steve demanded all stages to be tweaked for block compatibility and he had to be delayed past the February 2020 deadline. And Nintendo rather than allow a drought in content between Terry and Steve gave Sakurai another Fighter's Pass to work on.

I do not believe Sakurai hates Steve. The diamond sword and the fact that Sakurai even gave us Steve makes it clear that he doesn't. But the leaks of Minecraft discussions make it seem like Steve has been in the works before Fighter Pass Vol 2 was conceived. And if Fighter Pass 2 was decided on around the month of the game of the fifth DLC pack, that's a crazy coincidental timing.
 

lady_sky skipper

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To be fair to Bayonetta, Sakurai toned her down for Ultimate so that she uses her hair powers but doesn't have to strip to do so.
 

DonkaFjord

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Leaks tend to point to Steve being in talks before Banjo. But like you said- they were doing a lot of different negotiations for possible characters so it doesn't mean he got the green light early on. Sakurai also mentioned that he dealt with a different team then when he worked with banjo (Obviously I guess since Mojang and Rare.)

And the ratings board inconsistencies are a whole different issue entirely. Think Sakurai even had a column about the differences in ratings boards between the west and Japan and how sexualized content is demonized in one market where as violence is more of a concern in the other.
 

Sean Wheeler

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I just added Sephiroth to the poll because with him announced today, I realized that must have been why Final Fantasy had no spirits. But if they were saving all the Spirits and music for Sephiroth, maybe he was already planned for Fighters Pass 1?
 

Sean Wheeler

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With Pyra and Mythra in Fighters Pass 2, there seems to be a pattern of repped franchises in Fighters Pass 2 outside of Steve. And yes that pattern counts ARMS with existing Spirits, Mii Costumes and Assist Trophy. Looks like the two Fighter Passes are polar opposites with Byleth fitting Fighter Pass 2 and Steve fitting Fighter Pass 1. Forget the Sephiroth option. Byleth totally switched with Steve!
 

TheCJBrine

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With Pyra and Mythra in Fighters Pass 2, there seems to be a pattern of repped franchises in Fighters Pass 2 outside of Steve. And yes that pattern counts ARMS with existing Spirits, Mii Costumes and Assist Trophy. Looks like the two Fighter Passes are polar opposites with Byleth fitting Fighter Pass 2 and Steve fitting Fighter Pass 1. Forget the Sephiroth option. Byleth totally switched with Steve!
does it really matter dude.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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What I expect is people not understanding the concept that Smash never ends on high notes.
There's only one time Smash ever ended on a high note, but even then that was a character nobody expected nor wanted. if SSBU is to end on a high note, it'd probably be Space Invaders or some historically important character like that - not Geno, Crash, Doomguy, or Waluigi.
 

TechPowah

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a pattern of repped franchises in Fighters Pass 2 outside of Steve.
And yes that pattern counts ARMS with existing Spirits, Mii Costumes and Assist Trophy.
You're already giving yourself concessions here to the new theory you just made

"a pattern with everyone in season 2, except one of them"
"and also it's not about games already having a character or not"

Even if it was true that Byleth was a replacement for some other character on the pass.....OK, and? what about it? What are you trying to prove?
learn to cope
 

Mike 223

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Ever since the first fighter pass ended with Byleth, I've been very skeptical. Fire Emblem: Three Houses wasn't even announced at the time when Super Smash Bros. Ultimate was released. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and ARMS were released too late to get representatives, yet Three Houses which was released after Ultimate gets in the Fighter Pass? Sure, Sakurai had decided to put fighters before their games but he decided on Ultimate's roster far more in advance than the other Smash games. Was Byleth even concieved at the time? Also, after Terry's showcase, Sakurai announced this new Fighter Pass. While we rejoiced that there wouldn't be just one character left at the time, I think he might have been using the new pass as a way to delay the final character. Steve has been rumored from the very beginning with every credible leaker saying he's going to be in Ultimate before the game was out. And with Min Min as the first character in Fighter Pass Vol 2 after getting a spirit in the base game pretty much confirms that Vol 2 wasn't planned at launch. And now we got today's announcement of Steve and Sakurai explaining how Nintendo practically slaved him to bring a difficult character into Smash. A guy with glasses intimidated him to put Steve in! Why? Maybe Sakurai was obligated to put Steve in from the beginning because he was one of the DLC characters Nintendo picked for him but it was so hard to work with a stiff blocky character in a fighting game and the deadline for the fifth character was coming that Sakurai requested to change the final character to a simpler character. Nintendo agreed to allow a new Fire Emblem character as long as Sakurai makes six additional DLC characters including Steve. Reggie has said the DLC characters would be ones you'd never expect in Smash. And the way each fighter was packaged with a new stage, spirits and music implied a new franchise. In the first Fighter Pass, Byleth was the only first-party character and the only character to represent a series already represented. If you switch Byleth with Steve, the first pass would have been consistent as all the characters would be third-party characters representing their series for the first time and would be old enough to be chosen with the base game characters.
Maybe, Minecraft Is Popular, But Again, It Was Pre-planed
 

Sean Wheeler

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With the announcement of Sora being the true winner of the Smash Ballot, and Sakurai and the late Iwata have been negotiating with Disney, could that mean Sora was always planned as the last DLC character even before Sakurai decided on a Fighters Pass Vol 2? Could this mean Vol 2 was created because Sakurai couldn't secure the rights to Sora on time? I've added a new option to vote on the idea that Sora was going to be Challenger Pack 5 before Disney delayed him to Challenger Pack 11.
 

Super Flygon

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I feel like there was always going to be at least 2 Fighters Passes. We got 7 DLC characters on 3DS/Wii U (granted 3 are vets), so I imagine Nintendo would've wanted more DLC characters in the next game, especially given how much more successful the Switch itself is.
 

Sean Wheeler

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I feel like there was always going to be at least 2 Fighters Passes. We got 7 DLC characters on 3DS/Wii U (granted 3 are vets), so I imagine Nintendo would've wanted more DLC characters in the next game, especially given how much more successful the Switch itself is.
The Min Min, Pyra and Mythra spirits make it seem unlikely that the second pass was planned. Sakurai's excuse for the Spring Man Assist Trophy and the Rex Mii Costume was that their games were released too late, not that he found better reps for their games in DLC. And hasn't someone said Banjo & Kazooie were negotiated in 2018? If so, maybe Sakurai didn't get all the companies' permissions when he planned the DLC and instead decided on the DLC expecting that the companies would just give him the characters but it was tricky to get through Disney.
 

Super Flygon

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The Min Min, Pyra and Mythra spirits make it seem unlikely that the second pass was planned. Sakurai's excuse for the Spring Man Assist Trophy and the Rex Mii Costume was that their games were released too late, not that he found better reps for their games in DLC. And hasn't someone said Banjo & Kazooie were negotiated in 2018? If so, maybe Sakurai didn't get all the companies' permissions when he planned the DLC and instead decided on the DLC expecting that the companies would just give him the characters but it was tricky to get through Disney.
To be fair, if there was no ARMS or XC2 representation in Smash before DLC, it would've probably made it obvious that they'd get DLC fighters. Maybe they added the assist trophy and mii costume as a way to give them representation without making it super obvious that they'd get characters, just to keep people guessing.
 

Sean Wheeler

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To be fair, if there was no ARMS or XC2 representation in Smash before DLC, it would've probably made it obvious that they'd get DLC fighters. Maybe they added the assist trophy and mii costume as a way to give them representation without making it super obvious that they'd get characters, just to keep people guessing.
But Sakurai has stated that the DLC, at least the first fighters pass, had been planned since 2015. He had even asked fans to stop requesting characters because he already decided on the DLC.
 

TheCJBrine

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But Sakurai has stated that the DLC, at least the first fighters pass, had been planned since 2015. He had even asked fans to stop requesting characters because he already decided on the DLC.
I don’t recall him saying that? Got a source?

I remember him saying developers didn’t know about DLC until January 2018 or something like that…

2015 sounds very unrealistic considering the basegame’s project plan was done in December that year.
 
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Sean Wheeler

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I don’t recall him saying that? Got a source?

I remember him saying developers didn’t know about DLC until January 2018 or something like that…

2015 sounds very unrealistic considering the basegame’s project plan was done in December that year.
Just because his developers didn't know doesn't mean Sakurai himself hadn't thought of the DLC. He wanted to prevent leaks. And if Vol 1 was decided on 2018, Rex's consolation Mii Costume for being released "too late" doesn't make sense because Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was released the previous year. I don't remember my source for 2015, but I'm pretty sure they said the DLC was decided with the base game.
 

TheCJBrine

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Just because his developers didn't know doesn't mean Sakurai himself hadn't thought of the DLC. He wanted to prevent leaks. And if Vol 1 was decided on 2018, Rex's consolation Mii Costume for being released "too late" doesn't make sense because Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was released the previous year. I don't remember my source for 2015, but I'm pretty sure they said the DLC was decided with the base game.
He said that about Rex in regards to the basegame. He actually tried Rex with Pyra/Mythra or at least saw if it was possible, but it was too hard so they just stuck with Pyra/Mythra.

also iirc he never told fans to stop requesting characters, you may be thinking of Harada getting mad at spammers (though they didn’t intend to spam developers or other people), or Sakurai saying Nintendo chose the characters (but he never told fans to stop or anything).

There’s no proof the DLC was decided that early. This sounds more like a theory based on Steve being in talks since 2015, which was just talks.
 
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Colololin

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People putting OP on blast need to know something. Sakurai said it takes approximately one year to finish a full character so yeah, Byleth and Steve (in theory) would not have been worked on until after pass 1 was being sold. Byleth would have started development January/February 2019. Add to that Reggie said at Joker's reveal that the characters were all from new series and I think you'll find OP has a point. In the instance Reggie talked about the first pass he meant Persona, Dragon Quest, Banjo Kazooie, Fatal Fury and Minecraft....... he didn't know Byleth was getting in. Minecraft leaked before the title was even publicly known so Nintendo had more than enough time to decide to swap them round.

Byleth being swapped might seem tinfoil to a lot of you but Byleth was not in development when pass 1 went on sale. Note = activie development.
 
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Sean Wheeler

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People putting OP on blast need to know something. Sakurai said it takes approximately one year to finish a full character so yeah, Byleth and Steve (in theory) would not have been worked on until after pass 1 was being sold. Byleth would have started development January/February 2019. Add to that Reggie said at Joker's reveal that the characters were all from new series and I think you'll find OP has a point. In the instance Reggie talked about the first pass he meant Persona, Dragon Quest, Banjo Kazooie, Fatal Fury and Minecraft....... he didn't know Byleth was getting in. Minecraft leaked before the title was even publicly known so Nintendo had more than enough time to decide to swap them round.

Byleth being swapped might seem tinfoil to a lot of you but Byleth was not in development when pass 1 went on sale. Note = activie development.
You've got a point. Though it's possible that Sakurai lied to Reggie to keep Byleth a secret. If Byleth started development in January 2019, that would have been six months before Three Houses was released. And knowing how Roy and Corrin joined Smash before their respective Fire Emblem games released and how Greninja started from the concept plans of Pokémon X and Y, it is perfectly reasonable to assume Sakurai started development on Byleth before Three Houses was released. However, if he was planned all the way back in 2015 and the 2017 characters couldn't make it to the planned roster so they had to be relegated to Assist Trophies and Spirits or saved for Fighters Pass Vol 2 that was obviously a shift in the plans, that wouldn't be so realistic. Also, with Sora revealed as the real winner of the Smash Ballot and not Bayonetta, I really don't know how much we can really trust Sakurai on his word. He could have asked Reggie to lie for him or since Byleth was such a closely guarded secret that barely anyone at Nintendo knew he was coming to Smash, he could have not told Reggie at all or lied to Reggie about who was on the first Fighter Pass, or maybe they really have changed the DLC plans after Joker was released.
 

Colololin

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You've got a point. Though it's possible that Sakurai lied to Reggie to keep Byleth a secret. If Byleth started development in January 2019, that would have been six months before Three Houses was released. And knowing how Roy and Corrin joined Smash before their respective Fire Emblem games released and how Greninja started from the concept plans of Pokémon X and Y, it is perfectly reasonable to assume Sakurai started development on Byleth before Three Houses was released. However, if he was planned all the way back in 2015 and the 2017 characters couldn't make it to the planned roster so they had to be relegated to Assist Trophies and Spirits or saved for Fighters Pass Vol 2 that was obviously a shift in the plans, that wouldn't be so realistic. Also, with Sora revealed as the real winner of the Smash Ballot and not Bayonetta, I really don't know how much we can really trust Sakurai on his word. He could have asked Reggie to lie for him or since Byleth was such a closely guarded secret that barely anyone at Nintendo knew he was coming to Smash, he could have not told Reggie at all or lied to Reggie about who was on the first Fighter Pass, or maybe they really have changed the DLC plans after Joker was released.
I have questioned Sakurai a lot lately. I wouldn't say I don't believe anything he says but he is obviously doing a lot of covering for higher ups due to bad ideas attached to preplanned content. Your theory has a lot more ground than people think. Sakurai sold the pass on it's "value" but going into Byleth's presentation everything started changing tune. All of a sudden the character was kept secret and only a certain circle knew of them. While you could be right and Sakurai wrongly informed Reggie I think it makes more sense that Byleth was not initially planned as part of the pass. Yeah Sakurai played Three Houses but he plays a lot of games at Nintendo before release.

There is too much nonsense around Byleth's reveal. After the Corrin backlash why would Sakurai knowingly end on Fire Emblem? Being CP4 would have made more sense to soften the blow. If Byleth was swapped is unknown but there are too many contradictions with him having been planned for pass 1. When you take Sakurai saying "only those who are confident in it's value should buy it", Reggie saying "5 characters from new series", then Sakurai saying "please no hard feelings?" and Minecraft leaked before Ultimate's title was even known (although the leakers didn't know what Minecraft had coming they still knew) its fair to assume whatever happened with Steve, Byleth was not the one planned initially.
 
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