Could Olimar be top 15-16?

[MERPIS]

I feel like Olimar could be top 15, his theory is there, he can camp out nearly any character and can rack up damage extremely quickly, Zero thinks he is 16th, which is very good. His players are also very good, Myran, Shuton, Dabuz, and more. His results are rather good, having wins over Ally, VoiD, and Komo. So if his results pick up even more and we see what be can do. Could he make top 15?

 

[Myran]

Just wanted to stop by to say I think he can be top 5 in time. Cheers!

 

[Captain Phobos]

Personally, I would say no. It's not because I think Olimar isn't good, but there are just too many characters above him. Maybe in the future, there will be more Olimar players who learn how to use him in a way that makes him high tier, but in the current metagame, no.

 

[Myran]

Personally, I would say no. It's not because I think Olimar isn't good, but there are just too many characters above him. Maybe in the future, there will be more Olimar players who learn how to use him in a way that makes him high tier, but in the current metagame, no.

What exactly are you thinking holds him back? He has one of the best neutral and zoning kits in the game allowing him to effectively wall out almost every character. Great damage racking ability with nice kill power as well. His only real weaknesses are landing or recovering, both of which can be helped with good use of up-b, whistle armor, and side-b.

 

[MERPIS]

Just wanted to stop by to say I think he can be top 5 in time. Cheers!

Now that's an idea I can get with, guy is returning to his brawl days even without those other 3 pikmin.

 

[Captain Phobos]

What exactly are you thinking holds him back? He has one of the best neutral and zoning kits in the game allowing him to effectively wall out almost every character. Great damage racking ability with nice kill power as well. His only real weaknesses are landing or recovering, both of which can be helped with good use of up-b, whistle armor, and side-b.

Like I said; not a bad character, but there are others that do exactly that, but better.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Hey, if could make it into the upper-mid tier back in Melee, I believe can make it into the top 15 percentile range.

 

[MERPIS]

Like I said; not a bad character, but there are others that do exactly that, but better.

That's like saying picking Ike is a good option for a sword guy to play as, but hey look at that, Cloud does what Ike can do but better, wow Ike just got shafted faster than M2 did while Nintendo was developing Brawl.

 

[Captain Phobos]

That's like saying picking Ike is a good option for a sword guy to play as, but hey look at that, Cloud does what Ike can do but better, wow Ike just got shafted faster than M2 did while Nintendo was developing Brawl.

That got toxic quick. I'm trying to say that in neither the current metagame nor the foreseeable future will Olimar be top 15.

 

[Myran]

I'm not sure what you mean by do it better? Who does neutral better than Olimar while having similar benefits? His damage output is absurd and with 2 purples he can out pressure pretty much any character in the game.

 

[MERPIS]

That got toxic quick. I'm trying to say that in neither the current metagame nor the foreseeable future will Olimar be top 15.

There's very few characters in this game that can get past Olimar's wall of pikmin without too much damage, even some of the top tiers could be screwed over by the wall, like Marth and Rosa and Sheik, and the few that don't, characters like Cloud and M2 are exploitable in other ways. Olimar is getting to the point where not even most swordies can get past his spam, all we need are more results and Olimar is in the top 15. In fact, I can see by the end of this game life, Olimar only losing to Mewtwo, Cloud, Sonic, and Maybe Sheik, he will become a big deal.

 

[Captain Phobos]

I'm not sure what you mean by do it better? Who does neutral better than Olimar while having similar benefits? His damage output is absurd and with 2 purples he can out pressure pretty much any character in the game.

Characters with absurd damage output: Bayonetta, Cloud, Sonic, Fox, Rosaluma, Meta Knight, Falcon, Ness, and many more.

 

[Blue Banana]

Like I said; not a bad character, but there are others that do exactly that, but better.

I don't think you directly answered his question; you just reiterated your opinion. I think what he's asking for is what qualities do other characters have that make them better than Olimar as a character.

Characters with absurd damage output: Bayonetta, Cloud, Sonic, Fox, Rosaluma, Meta Knight, Falcon, Ness, and many more.

I'll agree that most of the characters listed here do have exceptional damage output, but I don't think Meta Knight has that. As far as surefire combos go, Olimar tends to be good but not great. Most of his guaranteed damage come from basic "down throw to aerial" combos, but purples give them that extra oomph that similar combos don't have.
However, I think most of those characters you listed can only achieve that kind of damage output only if they're in an advantage state. Not many characters have a potentially oppressive neutral like Olimar has. Pikmin Throw is going to build up residual damage that's going to matter if the opponent doesn't react accordingly and quickly, and that process is going to accelerate with whites. Dawdle with killing the Pikmin too long, and Olimar can go in for a punishment. Ground approaches risk getting stuffed by purples or forward smashes (again, building up residual damage) or outspaced by pivot grabs, and Olimar has an advantage state solid enough to make the most out of grabs. Purples can also effectively bully the opponent out of the space that they control, forcing decisions that the Oli player can take advantage of. Played well, Olimar will force the opponent to play his game.
Olimar doesn't have the explosive advantage like Fox or Bayo has to generate a lot of damage, but he does have a really annoying neutral with lots of potential residual damage that, combined with his solid advantage state, allows to put out as much as damage as the explosive ones in a short amount of time, even exceeding them in certain situations.

 

[Captain Phobos]

I don't think you directly answered his question; you just reiterated your opinion. I think what he's asking for is what qualities do other characters have that make them better than Olimar as a character.

I'll agree that most of the characters listed here do have exceptional damage output, but I don't think Meta Knight has that. As far as surefire combos go, Olimar tends to be good but not great. Most of his guaranteed damage come from basic "down throw to aerial" combos, but purples give them that extra oomph that similar combos don't have.
However, I think most of those characters you listed can only achieve that kind of damage output only if they're in an advantage state. Not many characters have a potentially oppressive neutral like Olimar has. Pikmin Throw is going to build up residual damage that's going to matter if the opponent doesn't react accordingly and quickly, and that process is going to accelerate with whites. Dawdle with killing the Pikmin too long, and Olimar can go in for a punishment. Ground approaches risk getting stuffed by purples or forward smashes (again, building up residual damage) or outspaced by pivot grabs, and Olimar has an advantage state solid enough to make the most out of grabs. Purples can also effectively bully the opponent out of the space that they control, forcing decisions that the Oli player can take advantage of. Played well, Olimar will force the opponent to play his game.
Olimar doesn't have the explosive advantage like Fox or Bayo has to generate a lot of damage, but he does have a really annoying neutral with lots of potential residual damage that, combined with his solid advantage state, allows to put out as much as damage as the explosive ones in a short amount of time, even exceeding them in certain situations.

It's not that hard to kill the Pikmin, and once that happens, if Olimar isn't able to return to ground safely, he's in big trouble if he's against characters with even just decent aerial game. Without his Pikmin, Olimar has basically nothing to work with.

 

[Blue Banana]

It's not that hard to kill the Pikmin, and once that happens, if Olimar isn't able to return to ground safely, he's in big trouble if he's against characters with even just decent aerial game. Without his Pikmin, Olimar has basically nothing to work with.

Even if the opponent can kill the Pikmin easily, the Olimar player can still take note of what and how the opponent is doing to kill them and use it to condition their opponent into a vulnerable state.
I do agree that Olimar has a very bad disadvantage state, but he still has options like whistle to get out of these types of situations. He can still hit opponents with his aerials if they get overzealous.
Pikmin Pluck generates Pikmin on frame 1 and has a FAF of 9, and although they're not that fast, frame 4 jab and frame 6 down tilt act as decent options for opponents that get too close to Olimar.

 

[Captain Phobos]

Even if the opponent can kill the Pikmin easily, the Olimar player can still take note of what and how the opponent is doing to kill them and use it to condition their opponent into a vulnerable state.
I do agree that Olimar has a very bad disadvantage state, but he still has options like whistle to get out of these types of situations. He can still hit opponents with his aerials if they get overzealous.
Pikmin Pluck generates Pikmin on frame 1 and has a FAF of 9, and although they're not that fast, frame 4 jab and frame 6 down tilt act as decent options for opponents that get too close to Olimar.

It's true that if Olimar manages to get to a safe spot to pluck Pikmin, he'll have them all out very fast, but it's too easy to kill the Pikmin. Whenever I fight Olimar, it seems like I kill the Pikmin without even trying.

 

[Blue Banana]

If you kill the Pikmin, then you're exposing yourself to a potential punish from Olimar. If he's close enough you risk getting dash grabbed; if he isn't then he can pluck and throw another and reset the situation of "do I kill or ignore the Pikmin"
If your experience dealing w/ Pikmin seems to be not too hard to deal with, then either the Oli player isn't being aggressive enough to go for punishes and/or you're playing a character that can easily kill Pikmin without leaving room for punishment, which makes his gameplan harder to execute effectively.
Also I feel like you are restating one of your points from your previous post when I tried to address that as best as I could.

 

[Captain Phobos]

If you kill the Pikmin, then you're exposing yourself to a potential punish from Olimar. If he's close enough you risk getting dash grabbed; if he isn't then he can pluck and throw another and reset the situation of "do I kill or ignore the Pikmin"
If your experience dealing w/ Pikmin seems to be not too hard to deal with, then either the Oli player isn't being aggressive enough to go for punishes and/or you're playing a character that can easily kill Pikmin without leaving room for punishment, which makes his gameplan harder to execute effectively.
Also I feel like you are restating one of your points from your previous post when I tried to address that as best as I could.

I'm restating because no one here seems to understand. Characters with any sort of decent range like Cloud or Marth can kill the Pikmin without giving Olimar a good approach option.

 

[Blue Banana]

I understand that some characters can easily remove Pikmin without making themselves vulnerable. I'm trying to say that even if the opponent can do that, the Oli player can take note of how and when they do it so that they can create situations where either the opponent is vulnerable or will likely do a predictable option that the Oli player can react to.

 

[Myran]

It definitely seems like you've been influenced by the Olimar you're playing against. Yeah swordies can kill Pikmin, usually with moves that have lag, even more with Pikmin. Then you get punished for doing it. It's not like the Olimar is gonna throw all three in and let you just kill them for free. There's a reason top Olimar players can stand toe to toe with top Cloud and Marth mains.

 

[Captain Phobos]

I understand that some characters can easily remove Pikmin without making themselves vulnerable. I'm trying to say that even if the opponent can do that, the Oli player can take note of how and when they do it so that they can create situations where either the opponent is vulnerable or will likely do a predictable option that the Oli player can react to.

It definitely seems like you've been influenced by the Olimar you're playing against. Yeah swordies can kill Pikmin, usually with moves that have lag, even more with Pikmin. Then you get punished for doing it. It's not like the Olimar is gonna throw all three in and let you just kill them for free. There's a reason top Olimar players can stand toe to toe with top Cloud and Marth mains.

It's true I haven't seen top Olimar players fight, but from everything I've witnessed and know about the character, there's no way I could see him in top 15.

 

[MERPIS]

It's true I haven't seen top Olimar players fight, but from everything I've witnessed and know about the character, there's no way I could see him in top 15.

Bruh that's like saying KH 2 isn't good just because the opening is drawn out and terrible, what "you've seen" is only the tip of the iceberg of Olimar's progression in the meta.

 

[koken]

It's hard to see Olimar top 5 but if you are so sure about, I can believe :D. I think he may be easily top 10 though.

 

[Myran]

It's true I haven't seen top Olimar players fight, but from everything I've witnessed and know about the character, there's no way I could see him in top 15.

Well I encourage to you to watch and play against top level Olimar. You're missing out a lot on a character if you don't know what they can actually do. I mean I've seen players make Diddy Kong look bad, but he isn't.

 

[Captain Phobos]

Well I encourage to you to watch and play against top level Olimar. You're missing out a lot on a character if you don't know what they can actually do. I mean I've seen players make Diddy Kong look bad, but he isn't.

Alight, I'll check out some matches.