Corrin and Bidou

Reiwai

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Darkchibiterasu
#1
So, since Bidou tech is the news of the day, I wanted to ask, what is your impression of Corrin with Bidou?

In my (admittedly short) time experimenting with the tech, I think that Corrin with Bidou is a terrifying pair. She's got some scary things, namely that reverse aerial rush, and I can also imagine a few scenarios with the ledge trump.

What do you guys think?
 

Zephil

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#2
I was just thinking of opening a thread about this.

In my case I am a believer of Bidou and I believe that when I fully master it, it will improve to insane levels my mobility and spacing with Corrin.

From my short experience with it, when my bidou is on point I get great results.

You guys need to experience how good is to have PP when you can do it frequently without the risk of making a mistake. It really improves Corrin spacing and also has helped me to use dtilt more effectively.

I need more practice yet to actually be able to write a more detailed post about it but for now I am going with it and I am not missing the tilt stick.

btw I am still using the GC and the setup is not that big of a change to the layout I had before.

7690_10154038787064120_6001183566379841214_n.jpg
 

Skitrel

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#3
Corrin gets way too much value out of c-stick aerials. She absolutely requires the ability to do retreating nair and retreating fair which you can't do properly with a bidou layout.

The bidou tradeoff is the loss of a fundamental for the gain of many situational tricks. I do not believe that situational tricks are worth the loss of a fundamental though. Like many have pointed out in Melee - Fundamentals beat tech spam. I believe the same applies here.

Don't get me wrong, bidou is great for characters that aren't losing much from lack of cstick aerials. Falcon stands to gain a huge amount from bidou for example, and Little Macs should all be using it(but lets face reality they're still not going to win anything).

With that said I'm eager to see someone prove this to be wrong. But cstick aerials are stupidly important. They're the first thing any newbie is told to start doing when people realise they only use A for their aerials.
 

Reiwai

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#4
Corrin gets way too much value out of c-stick aerials. She absolutely requires the ability to do retreating nair and retreating fair which you can't do properly with a bidou layout.

The bidou tradeoff is the loss of a fundamental for the gain of many situational tricks. I do not believe that situational tricks are worth the loss of a fundamental though. Like many have pointed out in Melee - Fundamentals beat tech spam. I believe the same applies here.

Don't get me wrong, bidou is great for characters that aren't losing much from lack of cstick aerials. Falcon stands to gain a huge amount from bidou for example, and Little Macs should all be using it(but lets face reality they're still not going to win anything).

With that said I'm eager to see someone prove this to be wrong. But cstick aerials are stupidly important. They're the first thing any newbie is told to start doing when people realise they only use A for their aerials.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I was actually about to post pretty much the same thing. The lack of easy aerials really does hurt Corrin, for sure. But even though it cripples her, I still stand behind Bidou Corrin, because some of the very situational stuff is exceptionally good. Namely all the crazy stuff you can do with the bair. Will I use Bidou myself? Not yet. I want to see how it turns out when better players than I am figure it out.

My question also is, and I wanted to test this myself, but I'm not at home right now, but could you, in theory, map the right stick and trigger to smashes instead of specials? I think it probably wouldn't work, but if it did, that would turn Corrin with Bidou into an absolute powerhouse. If someone could test that, or has already tested that, I'm curious.
 

IndigoSSB

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#5
I couldn't have said it better myself. I was actually about to post pretty much the same thing. The lack of easy aerials really does hurt Corrin, for sure. But even though it cripples her, I still stand behind Bidou Corrin, because some of the very situational stuff is exceptionally good. Namely all the crazy stuff you can do with the bair. Will I use Bidou myself? Not yet. I want to see how it turns out when better players than I am figure it out.

My question also is, and I wanted to test this myself, but I'm not at home right now, but could you, in theory, map the right stick and trigger to smashes instead of specials? I think it probably wouldn't work, but if it did, that would turn Corrin with Bidou into an absolute powerhouse. If someone could test that, or has already tested that, I'm curious.
I can't test it right now, but I'm 95% sure that wouldn't work. The basis behind Bidou is forcing your c-stick into a directional input by having another "special" button active. It's pretty much impossible to do Bidou without sacrificing your c-stick.
 

Skitrel

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#6
I can't test it right now, but I'm 95% sure that wouldn't work. The basis behind Bidou is forcing your c-stick into a directional input by having another "special" button active. It's pretty much impossible to do Bidou without sacrificing your c-stick.
Technically bidou works with smash on c-stick too. You just have to hold Attack+Special instead of "special" in order to do it, this is just rather awkward. Obviously you have to have attack+special=smash in order for that to work too.

Still means losing nair on c-stick though, which still means you lose retreating nair and gain all the mobility issues from the smash attack cstick buggyness that caused everyone to make the switch to tilt-stick in the first place.

I've not really seen this method discussed previously, not even sure if it's known about.

EDIT: To be clear, it doesn't work with tilt on cstick because the directional input of tilt on cstick isn't enough. It works with the special and smash on cstick because they input a full dstick tilt for the input of their moves then the player cancels the input of the special or smash input by holding that input down.
 
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#7
Well, I just started playing Kamui and I don't use the C-stick, at all (Smash 64 veteran here, never adopted Melee's C-cheating :p), so I will give Bidou a try with Kamui.... sometime.
 

Reiwai

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#8
Technically bidou works with smash on c-stick too. You just have to hold Attack+Special instead of "special" in order to do it, this is just rather awkward. Obviously you have to have attack+special=smash in order for that to work too.

Still means losing nair on c-stick though, which still means you lose retreating nair and gain all the mobility issues from the smash attack cstick buggyness that caused everyone to make the switch to tilt-stick in the first place.

I've not really seen this method discussed previously, not even sure if it's known about.

EDIT: To be clear, it doesn't work with tilt on cstick because the directional input of tilt on cstick isn't enough. It works with the special and smash on cstick because they input a full dstick tilt for the input of their moves then the player cancels the input of the special or smash input by holding that input down.
That right there was the info I needed. I thought that it could possibly work, but I wanted to know the extent of which it works. Shame it doesn't.

So far it seems like using Bidou basically forces Corrin to completely redesign his playstyle, and whether it's good or not... I guess it's debatable? Technically it seems viable, but yeah, the loss of those aerials really does hurt her.

(Also how long have people been playing with tilt c-stick? I've gotten really no issues with smashes on c-stick. Is there an advantage, really? My noob is showing, isn't it?)
 
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LordShade67
#9
I'm with Skitrel Skitrel on this one. I'd rather have easy access to my aerials and tilts. Thank you.

Reiwai Reiwai I've been using TiltStick since July of last year and honestly, I haven't looked back. I also did a short video comparing the two aerial-wise back then.
To put it simply, TiltStick aerials give you alot more freedom vs. SmashStick Aerials in this game.
 

Reiwai

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#10
Yeah, I'm gonna side with Skitrel Skitrel , too. After messing around more, it really does hurt more than it helps. Unless something earth-shattering comes along, it'll have to be a more niche way of playing Corrin.

I still love that instant ledge trump into bair though. And all of those weird aerial mixups are fun.
 

Skitrel

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#11
That right there was the info I needed. I thought that it could possibly work, but I wanted to know the extent of which it works. Shame it doesn't.

So far it seems like using Bidou basically forces Corrin to completely redesign his playstyle, and whether it's good or not... I guess it's debatable? Technically it seems viable, but yeah, the loss of those aerials really does hurt her.

(Also how long have people been playing with tilt c-stick? I've gotten really no issues with smashes on c-stick. Is there an advantage, really? My noob is showing, isn't it?)
In addition to LordShade67 LordShade67 's excellent example, I'm a fan of this video to explain the issue. The long and short of it is that while tilting the cstick(with smash controller layout) your inputs with dstick will have NO effect on your movement. This reduces your control of aerial movement during the frames you're using cstick. This issue does not occur with tilts on cstick. You also can't use nair on cstick set to smash which means you can't do certain movement options while using your nair, this is 100% necessary for Corrins as micro-spacing nair is bread and butter for her, particularly rising-retreating nairs which you just can't do without using cstick for nair.

Video:


I'm actually starting to move away from trump. I'm becoming a much bigger fan of hanging sideB as a trump option. If you do it early you stage spike the opponent during their ledgesnap frame, if you do it late you trump them. If you do it super early you pin them. All are excellent situations to be in and you really can't fail at getting this correct unlike the occasional whiffed trumps that occur, it also applies some offstage aerial pressure while you get into position for it causing them to be extra cautious during their recovery.
 
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Reiwai

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#12
In addition to LordShade67 LordShade67 's excellent example, I'm a fan of this video to explain the issue. The long and short of it is that while tilting the cstick(with smash controller layout) your inputs with dstick will have NO effect on your movement. This reduces your control of aerial movement during the frames you're using cstick. This issue does not occur with tilts on cstick. You also can't use nair on cstick set to smash which means you can't do certain movement options while using your nair, this is 100% necessary for Corrins as micro-spacing nair is bread and butter for her, particularly rising-retreating nairs which you just can't do without using cstick for nair.

Video:

Well. I spent so long wondering how pro players had such great control of their aerials. I thought it was some crazy tech, I spent so long trying to find out how they did it. I'm an idiot, clearly.

(Love how this went from Bidou to discussing how I have no idea how to play Smash)
 

Skitrel

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#13
It's fine! Don't fret about it. It's a serious problem and anyone that got into Smash 4 a little later than the earliest days will have missed when this issue was all the rage and discussions about switching to Tilt-Stick was vibrant. Now it's just accepted as "normal" but it's not something ever brought up to newer players.

It's honestly a failure in Smash 4's design that people have had to make this switch while it isn't communicated to players well. People should not have to change away from default controller layouts to have the same level of control we had in Melee and Brawl. I consider it a bug that was never addressed and everyone called it the cstick bug back when it was first noticed.
 

Chief Hotsuin

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#14
About Bidou with Smash/Tilt stick, it's my understanding that you can hold A and B with the weird A+B=Smash attack setting and use Smash stick to move like with Bidou. lt feels very weird and there might be better configurations for it, but that's all l know. Corrin Bidou seems terrifying, but so is Tilt/Smash stick aerials.
 

lmntolp

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#15
I switch back and forth between using bidou and tilt-stick for Corrin. Not sure which is better yet. My favorite bidou tricks for Corrin are PP Fsmash to hit a paralyzed enemy and retreating PP dtilt for excellent microspacing.

I honestly got used to bidou enough that aerials and tilts are not a significant issue anymore. You really don't lose much momentum if you move the stick quickly. Also, it's still easy to do retreating short hop aerials because most of the momentum comes from the initial jump. If you want to fastfall, bidou can in some cases give you better control than tilt-stick, because for example you can fastfall with the C-stick to do a fastfall fair with forward momentum to reach farther.

You can use special-stick for dragon lunge, which can be interesting because you can fully control your air momentum while using it. Also, you can really easily do the DL platform endlag cancel by dropping through a platform and pressing C-stick away from the platform immediately. Maybe using special-stick for UpB can make aiming it easier, but I haven't tried doing that.

C-bouncing dragon fang shot doesn't really work with Bidou, so tilt-stick gets an advantage there.
 
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