Controller mod legality

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#1
So, I know there was the practice in my local scene of removing springs from Gamecube shoulder buttons to make the buttons easier to press quickly, but I wonder if that would be legal in the community as a whole?

Suppose I come in with a plastic cover around my C-stick that allows me to easily flick it perfectly diagonally to do neutral jabs? Is this level of modding legal?

Suppose I've cut the circuit board out of a Gamecube controller and mounted it in an arcade stick? If the stick plugs in and runs like a normal Gamecube controller, is that legal?

Suppose that I have a custom arcade stick for Smash, and by re-wiring the inputs for the C-stick, add in a "Neutral attack" button that simulates the input of a diagonal C-stick? Is this too far?

What if I were to wire up a board that, using timed pulses, made a "Wavedash Button" that does all of the required inputs to frame-perfect Wavedash in a direction?

At what point is controller modding too much?
 

Raykz

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#2
So, I know there was the practice in my local scene of removing springs from Gamecube shoulder buttons to make the buttons easier to press quickly, but I wonder if that would be legal in the community as a whole?

Suppose I come in with a plastic cover around my C-stick that allows me to easily flick it perfectly diagonally to do neutral jabs? Is this level of modding legal?

Suppose I've cut the circuit board out of a Gamecube controller and mounted it in an arcade stick? If the stick plugs in and runs like a normal Gamecube controller, is that legal?

Suppose that I have a custom arcade stick for Smash, and by re-wiring the inputs for the C-stick, add in a "Neutral attack" button that simulates the input of a diagonal C-stick? Is this too far?

What if I were to wire up a board that, using timed pulses, made a "Wavedash Button" that does all of the required inputs to frame-perfect Wavedash in a direction?

At what point is controller modding too much?

You don't have to go that far into examples. Suppose I buy a Razer Sabertooth which allows me to make macros (record button/stick presses with exact angle and timing). Would that be allowed?

I think that covers most of your questions and I too am legitimately curious as if this is allowed. (Not that I would use it myself, I personally feel pride when I do things right so I'd never really mod a controller).
 
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Plino

 
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#3
To be honest I'm not sure at what point it's "too much", but turbo buttons (which is what you described in your last example) are nearly universally banned.
 

Kodachi

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#4
Modding controllers will kill this game and any true competitive aspect it has. Please do not be the piece of **** to start this trend. And from what I have heard modded controllers are universally banned at tournaments, no matter how minor the mod is. Please don't be a pos k thx.
 
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#5
Modding controllers will kill this game and any true competitive aspect it has. Please do not be the piece of **** to start this trend. And from what I have heard modded controllers are universally banned at tournaments, no matter how minor the mod is. Please don't be a pos k thx.
That... was kinda harsh. You can say things in a nice manner and still get your point across. Honestly, it would help stop a lot of the issues this community has if people would just be more kind to one another.
 

Kodachi

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#6
Sorry, I had to quit the last competitive game I played seriously in because of modders. Really makes me salty. I just want the point to get across that this stuff doesn't fly, and I think I am not the only one who feels this way.
 

Pyr

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#7
Sorry, I had to quit the last competitive game I played seriously in because of modders. Really makes me salty. I just want the point to get across that this stuff doesn't fly, and I think I am not the only one who feels this way.
We can tell. ;)

As for modded controllers, there has always been a universal rule: Does the modification help you play the game on an input level in a meaningful way that makes it easier for you to input then your opponent? If so, ban it.

Wanna make a stick with a GC controller? Go for it. It doesn't change the fact that you still have to input everything.

Want to make your controller thinner/thicker for holding? Be my guest.

Removing the spring? It provides a slight advantage. Ban it.

Turbo/Macros? They help you do things more easily then non-controller users. Ban it.


Mods are A-OK if they keep things fair. Your C-Stick mod? It's a grey line. On one hand, you can do it more easily then someone without it. On the other, it really is not hard and it's not going to provide any additional frame-specific advantages. You still have to physically move the stick. I'd allow it.
 

Kodachi

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#8
Might as well let people mod their d pad so they can walk at the bare minimum speed while your at it.
 
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Pyr

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#9
Might as well let people mod their d pad so they can walk at the bare minimum speed while your at it.
Well, that's technically allowing for something that isn't possible normally (walking with a dpad) so it's banned by default in many FGCs by concept. That said, what tactical advantage could that give? Not all mods are bad broski, and walking with the dpad won't kill a game. I can understand your hate for it. You left a game. But I can't think of any game, in recent memory, where a controller mod was both allowed and killed a game at a competitive level. And I'm going into the stock of for fun games for that one.

What game was it?
 

Kodachi

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#10
I guess it wouldn't really give that much of an edge, just easier to turn and possible pivot/perfect pivot with. It's just if we start allowing small adjustments its only a matter of time before someone takes it to the next level.

I used to be a serious pvper on diablo 2 closed battle.net, clan leader & everything. This may not seem like a pvp game to those not familiar with high level play but it is actually some of the most enjoyable & engaging combat, especially 2v2/3v3/4v4 that I have ever played. It is downright addictive. I played this game religiously, and 99% of my playtime was pvp. Imagine the dance of a fighter combined with the accuracy of a shooter with the customization of an rpg, the actual pvp rules were enforced by the community and all was well for the most part, the cheaters played with the cheaters and the legit players played with the legits. This was 8-12 years ago though, when i came back later this year I only found the dust of what remained, with people hiding & using macros to perform animation cancels with zero cooldown, causing server desynch and being able to completely escape any sort of frame trap. That is the mildest of the offenses though and the closest that comes to controller modding, but is still enough to give a subpar player an edge over a polished one, just how a perfect pivot macro could do the same with sm4sh. I won't even get into the client side mods that were developed to help people cheat in pvp though, the macros were only "grey area" but it is a slippery slope and I pray, I really do pray that the same fate does not happen to this game. I see controller modding as the first baby steps of this happening and I want to do whatever I can to nip it in the bud.

1 button wavedashes/perfect pivots will kill this game and I am frankly surprised that people are allowed to even bring in their own controllers to tournaments. Wouldn't take a genius to map perfect pivot macro to a modded controller with a gcn shell.
 
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Plino

 
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#11
Walking has nothing to do with pivoting or perfect pivoting.
 
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#12
I just want to point out, I do not condone a Wavedash button. That was a hypothetical considering the potential upper bound of modding gone too far.

I would, however, like a sheath to make C-stick nair easy and reliable. (I main Mega Man and being able to reliable Nair while moving would make things so much easier) and wanted to frame it in a way that didn't make it sound quite as big of a mod as it could theoretically become.
 

DunnoBro

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#13
I believe sanding down the edges of your c-stick would make that easier. (More space to tilt the c-stick to so it will register as a nair)
 

Raykz

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#15
I just want to point out that this is usually universally allowed at Smash tournaments. There are even known players for doing this, both Melee and Brawl.
In Melee? Doing it would remove your ability to light shield which although niche has a few uses against specific characters.

But yea, it's a very popular allowed mod for Brawl (and now Smash 4).

Me? I just want someone to make a Wii U Pro faceplate with octagonal rigs for the control sticks.
 

Kodachi

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#16
slippery slope guys... not saying you two intend to bring out the potential nasties of what modded controllers can do, but what about that kid you 4 stock who nerd rages and takes it up a step? just sayin...
 

Pyr

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#17
slippery slope guys... not saying you two intend to bring out the potential nasties of what modded controllers can do, but what about that kid you 4 stock who nerd rages and takes it up a step? just sayin...
Well, I think the limits are established as to what constitutes an unfair advantage mod. I wanna ask you this: How can controller mods destroy a fighting game to the extent general mods did D2? As a Bone Spear and summonmancer (separate profiles) PvP'r, I understand your feels, but D2 and S4 are 2 completely different games and mods for S4 are limited.
 

Kodachi

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#18
single button perfect pivots with the d pad is my main worry at this point.

I cannot remember what the guy who showed it off was calling it, but it is entirely possible to purely move with a perfect pivot isn't it? Very difficult to perform and heavy on the fingers, and would give a huge advantage to anyone who can just slide across the stage being able to smash out of a sliding movement.

wavebounces could be macro'd to a single button as well but this tech isn't as difficult to perform and I doubt the controller has that many spare buttons, it's mainly the d-pad and I think pivot walking is the main concern.

If we are talking actual in game mods, well... the potential is huge actually depending how nintendo coded the game, but this is something that one would only have to worry about on online play, if at all, thankfully.
 
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Pyr

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#19
single button perfect pivots with the d pad is my main worry at this point.

I cannot remember what the guy who showed it off was calling it, but it is entirely possible to purely move with a perfect pivot isn't it? Very difficult to perform and heavy on the fingers, and would give a huge advantage to anyone who can just slide across the stage being able to smash out of a sliding movement.

wavebounces could be macro'd to a single button as well but this tech isn't as difficult to perform and I doubt the controller has that many spare buttons, it's mainly the d-pad and I think pivot walking is the main concern.

If we are talking actual in game mods, well... the potential is huge actually depending how nintendo coded the game, but this is something that one would only have to worry about on online play, if at all, thankfully.
Single button Perfect Pivots fall under single button WDing, so it's banned by default. That said, Perfect Pivots aren't very useful right now.

As for game mods, it's not going to happen for 2 years or so, and will be difficult as long as Nintendo continues to sponsor the game because of legal reasons and hosting reasons. In Smash, game mods won't do anything online, really. The way Nintendo has it work, if Brawl was any indication, is that your inputs are sent through and sent to all the other players. Any game changes on your end would mean that the game desyncs and the other players see you as derping around randomly. People can Mod Smash, ya. Online, though, Vanilla players will usually win the match.

That, and Nintendo's netcode seems better now. It might be able to detect mods if you attempt to play online. But ya, game mods won't affect your online experience unless you also use the mod.
 

mimgrim

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#21
In Melee? Doing it would remove your ability to light shield which although niche has a few uses against specific characters.

But yea, it's a very popular allowed mod for Brawl (and now Smash 4).
Yea, even some people did it in Melee. It didn't allow light shielding but gave an easier time for L-cancel and WDing. Or some just removed the Spring from just one shoulder button.

slippery slope guys... not saying you two intend to bring out the potential nasties of what modded controllers can do, but what about that kid you 4 stock who nerd rages and takes it up a step? just sayin...
Not really. Removing a spring and putting in a macro button is a big and obvious difference.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#22
The standard is this. You are allowed to get precisely one individual input per button pressed. You can use any controller, official or custom, that has this functionality. Removing springs (which is a very, very bad idea in smash 4 by the way), swapping sticks, re-arranging the location of buttons, messing with the shell for a different grip, conditional input (like an A button that only works if the stick is in neutral), or doing anything like that is fine. Binding multiple inputs together for guaranteed perfect simultaneous presses, macros, turbo, or anything like that is generally not allowed. Remapping a very picky analogue input to a specific digital button press is a very novel idea that I hadn't heard of or considered before this topic. It should probably not be allowed either, but I do not believe any tournament rules thus far have contemplated that possibility.

Allowing controller mods to the extent I outlined doesn't offer anyone any real advantages (especially in 4 where despringing is a very bad idea), it makes some players feel more comfortable, and hypothetically it could allow a disabled player to play with a custom controller that re-arranges the location of the buttons to more accommodating positions. I know of no real disadvantages, and the rule tends to be pretty clear. No TO is going to knowingly allow a player to compete with a controller that actually gives a real advantage; if you want to use something like a button macro, you're going to have to sneak it, and if you're sneaking stuff like that, you might be able to cheat in a lot of ways up until the point you get caught and will be shamed out of the community. I wouldn't worry about it.
 

Raykz

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#24
(like an A button that only works if the stick is in neutral)
This definitely does give a real advantage and could also be considered a 2 button macro as it's neutral + A even though it doesn't technically press neutral. Many, many online games had macros like this and banned them because of how unfair it is. (World of Warcraft is a prime example, where conditional macros where nerfed to the point where they can only check things that change the nature of abilities anyways. IE: Being airborne in this game).
 

jmjb

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#27
User was warned for this post; bumping a year-dead thread for an argument
Sorry, I had to quit the last competitive game I played seriously in because of modders. Really makes me salty. I just want the point to get across that this stuff doesn't fly, and I think I am not the only one who feels this way.
LOL. this was the most hilarious thing I've ever read. was that your attempt at damage control for the **** post you just made? please tell us all how modded controllers ended your "competitive smash" lol.
 

Kodachi

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#28
Not modded controllers, and not smash, but client side patches that changed the way the game looked and behaved without actually changing any server side data. Think rapid fire luigi spin, being able to instantly escape grabs, or even single button perfect pivots. Even worse, I have seen rapid fire frame cancelling leading to server side desynch... I am not exactly a fan of cheating, but I have since made peace with the fact that some individuals will do anything to win.
 
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Linconius

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#29
Might be trying to resurrect a dead thread here, but what about an A + B mapping? I'm trying to use C-stick for attacks atm, and mapping X --> A (And linking the inner circuit to B as well) so, with A + B smash on, you could guarantee smash? I personally feel that for a core move, SMASH should be mappable in controls. But that mod would technically be 2 inputs?
 

Blackfang08

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#30
We can tell. ;)

As for modded controllers, there has always been a universal rule: Does the modification help you play the game on an input level in a meaningful way that makes it easier for you to input then your opponent? If so, ban it.

Wanna make a stick with a GC controller? Go for it. It doesn't change the fact that you still have to input everything.

Want to make your controller thinner/thicker for holding? Be my guest.

Removing the spring? It provides a slight advantage. Ban it.

Turbo/Macros? They help you do things more easily then non-controller users. Ban it.


Mods are A-OK if they keep things fair. Your C-Stick mod? It's a grey line. On one hand, you can do it more easily then someone without it. On the other, it really is not hard and it's not going to provide any additional frame-specific advantages. You still have to physically move the stick. I'd allow it.
We can tell. ;)

As for modded controllers, there has always been a universal rule: Does the modification help you play the game on an input level in a meaningful way that makes it easier for you to input then your opponent? If so, ban it.

Wanna make a stick with a GC controller? Go for it. It doesn't change the fact that you still have to input everything.

Want to make your controller thinner/thicker for holding? Be my guest.

Removing the spring? It provides a slight advantage. Ban it.

Turbo/Macros? They help you do things more easily then non-controller users. Ban it.


Mods are A-OK if they keep things fair. Your C-Stick mod? It's a grey line. On one hand, you can do it more easily then someone without it. On the other, it really is not hard and it's not going to provide any additional frame-specific advantages. You still have to physically move the stick. I'd allow it.
So what about integrating a GameCube controller into a Guitar Hero controller? That seems like a fun thing to try, and probably wouldn't give you much if an edge on your opponents unless you arranged the buttons perfectly.
 
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#31
As far as controller modding goes, it should only be aesthetic changes. There should be absolutely no mods on a controller that can change or enhance the way someone plays (I.E. turbo buttons, macros, etc.) in a tournament. I help run tournaments at my school, and my friend has me look at controllers and determine if they are modded in anyway. Luckily, nobody has shown up with a third party controller or anything of the sort recently.
 
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#33
Hmm, what I'm wondering if you, let's say remapped a trigger to jump for melee, or added another shoulder button. Is that legal?
For melee? I think the same would apply, considering you can't remap anything in the first place, and adding another shoulder button would probably also be out of the question.
 
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#34
Would the Smashbox or B0XX be legal in Sm4sh? I've been arguing with myself about this lol, and idk if they're legal or not. I've looked it up, couldn't find anything, Everything I've found was on Melee. By your description of what makes a mod legal, these would technically be illegal.
 

Daisy101

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#35
Yeah, i was wondering what happening if people are far more interested to the Smash Stick/B0XX/Smashbox? Hit boxes are accepted for what they are in the FGC games, Same for the stick, And yet Smash stick is pretty close of what an actual Stick controller is. tho maybe i'm exaggerated, but i don't think playing with the smash stick won't cause that much of problems.
 
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brayden77

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#36
Okay, so I understand this is a long-dead thread, and poking it this late is probably a no-no, but I’m an amateur and just wanted to know if it would be allowed if I theoretically etches notches into my GC controller analog stick gate. What I mean is notch the hate around my movement stick at a 15 degree angle on either side of the top so that I could maximize my recovery. I’m a Pikachu main and the octagonal gate annoys me because it makes it ten times harder to execute precise angles on my Quick Attack. Would this be legal?
 

Raykz

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#37
Okay, so I understand this is a long-dead thread, and poking it this late is probably a no-no, but I’m an amateur and just wanted to know if it would be allowed if I theoretically etches notches into my GC controller analog stick gate. What I mean is notch the hate around my movement stick at a 15 degree angle on either side of the top so that I could maximize my recovery. I’m a Pikachu main and the octagonal gate annoys me because it makes it ten times harder to execute precise angles on my Quick Attack. Would this be legal?
Notches are legal.

Any modification to the shell/body is allowed. What isn't allowed is any modification to the chip or functionality.
 
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