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Consider switching to doc any advice?

UnfairestOyster

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Messages
12
Location
Canada
Hi, I have been playing melee for about 2 years on and off and currently main Marth. My Marth is okay I rarely go 0-2 at locals anymore but I just haven't been having as much fun as Marth. I have really been considering switching to Doc because my first introduction to competitive smash was PM and I mained Mario. I'm aware PM Mario and Doc are different but I feel in general all Mario's play with similar fundamentals and similar approach to the neutral game. So any advice or opinion about playing Doc would be great, thoughts on switching mains, personal experiences and thoughts on transition from Marth to Doc? Hopefully I will be a licensed doctor in no time!
 

Superw0rri0

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
849
Location
SoCal
Heyo!!! Welcome to 20Rx!!!

First off... my advice would be to play whoever you feel the most comfortable with/have fun with the most. If that's Marth than stick with it. Plus, logically, Marth is a better character than Doc so ideally stick with Marth... that said Doc can still give you results but you'll have to put more work.

Coming from a Marth background... Marth's two biggest skills are movement and spacing and Doc needs both of those very much. Just apply your spacing from Marth but adjust it to back air. Doc's movement isn't as smooth as Marth's but it's still pretty good. Unlike Marth, Doc has an easier time killing people. Doc has ways to kill at every percent unlike Marth where 80-150 it's difficult.

Coming from PM Mario background... Think of Doc as a slower nerfed PM Mario. Recovery is worse, combos are worse, more landing lag, but more powerful and a more consistent f-air and up-b. Doc has more tech skill though... for example up-b cancel, up-b extension, aerial interrupt, etc. For me personally, SHBAWD is easier in melee than PM same thing with placebo(waveland after pill). D-air isn't as good as PM although still good if used right. IMO Doc's nair is better. F-air is stronger but shorter range.

I'm sure you already knew some of this but i just wanted to paint a picture of the overall difference... basically Doc is slower but more powerful compared to PM Mario.

Overall just learn the Doc tech...
Things that I would say is mandatory for Doc's to learnl:
- SHBAWD
- Placebo
- up-throw > f-air
- pill game
- perfect wavedash / near perfect
- grab combos
- cape usage
- b-air spacing
- d-air auto cancel
- wavedash back in neutral to counter approach (this is huge)
- up-b cancel (not huge but it's really good against shield pressure)

I would say starting learning this things in addition to Doc's neutral...

Speaking of neutral... compared to the other two characters you used to play (Marth and PM Mario)... the biggest difference is that you will be in neutral a lot more. One of Doc's biggest weaknesses is his combo game powerful but short. In other words you will have to accept that you cannot 0-death fast fallers in the way that Shiek or Marth can (final destination being the exception). You also have to accept that as Doc, you will have to give up on the initiative. You cannot approach in the way that Sheik or Fox can. I'm not saying you can't approach... but it's not the same as the previous two characters you played. I would say that it's better to get your opponent to make a mistake and punish then it is to approach. Either wait for an opening or make one but you can't brute force one. You can't rush in like Falco or Captain Falcon. That is something that you will have to accept. An example, as I mentioned in the above list, wavedash back on Doc is incredibly good... just dash dance and when you see an approach wavedash back and punish.

In regards to actually playing Doc... check out the stickied posts
here's a post from me explaining some stuff to another new Doc player
check out the tech skill thread if you want to learn some new stuff

and most importantly if you do decide on this character:
Have fun with the good doctor!
 

Palika

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
22
what is this dair auto cancel you mention?
If you full hop and use dair around the apex of the jump, it'll finish right before you land so you have only the normal 4 frames landing lag instead of the lag from landing from dair. It's good because if you do that, you can hit them with the last bits of dair, have it auto cancel, then follow up with something like d-smash or u-tilt.
 

UnfairestOyster

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Messages
12
Location
Canada
Heyo!!! Welcome to 20Rx!!!

First off... my advice would be to play whoever you feel the most comfortable with/have fun with the most. If that's Marth than stick with it. Plus, logically, Marth is a better character than Doc so ideally stick with Marth... that said Doc can still give you results but you'll have to put more work.

Coming from a Marth background... Marth's two biggest skills are movement and spacing and Doc needs both of those very much. Just apply your spacing from Marth but adjust it to back air. Doc's movement isn't as smooth as Marth's but it's still pretty good. Unlike Marth, Doc has an easier time killing people. Doc has ways to kill at every percent unlike Marth where 80-150 it's difficult.

Coming from PM Mario background... Think of Doc as a slower nerfed PM Mario. Recovery is worse, combos are worse, more landing lag, but more powerful and a more consistent f-air and up-b. Doc has more tech skill though... for example up-b cancel, up-b extension, aerial interrupt, etc. For me personally, SHBAWD is easier in melee than PM same thing with placebo(waveland after pill). D-air isn't as good as PM although still good if used right. IMO Doc's nair is better. F-air is stronger but shorter range.

I'm sure you already knew some of this but i just wanted to paint a picture of the overall difference... basically Doc is slower but more powerful compared to PM Mario.

Overall just learn the Doc tech...
Things that I would say is mandatory for Doc's to learnl:
- SHBAWD
- Placebo
- up-throw > f-air
- pill game
- perfect wavedash / near perfect
- grab combos
- cape usage
- b-air spacing
- d-air auto cancel
- wavedash back in neutral to counter approach (this is huge)
- up-b cancel (not huge but it's really good against shield pressure)

I would say starting learning this things in addition to Doc's neutral...

Speaking of neutral... compared to the other two characters you used to play (Marth and PM Mario)... the biggest difference is that you will be in neutral a lot more. One of Doc's biggest weaknesses is his combo game powerful but short. In other words you will have to accept that you cannot 0-death fast fallers in the way that Shiek or Marth can (final destination being the exception). You also have to accept that as Doc, you will have to give up on the initiative. You cannot approach in the way that Sheik or Fox can. I'm not saying you can't approach... but it's not the same as the previous two characters you played. I would say that it's better to get your opponent to make a mistake and punish then it is to approach. Either wait for an opening or make one but you can't brute force one. You can't rush in like Falco or Captain Falcon. That is something that you will have to accept. An example, as I mentioned in the above list, wavedash back on Doc is incredibly good... just dash dance and when you see an approach wavedash back and punish.

In regards to actually playing Doc... check out the stickied posts
here's a post from me explaining some stuff to another new Doc player
check out the tech skill thread if you want to learn some new stuff

and most importantly if you do decide on this character:
Have fun with the good doctor!
Heyo!!! Welcome to 20Rx!!!

First off... my advice would be to play whoever you feel the most comfortable with/have fun with the most. If that's Marth than stick with it. Plus, logically, Marth is a better character than Doc so ideally stick with Marth... that said Doc can still give you results but you'll have to put more work.

Coming from a Marth background... Marth's two biggest skills are movement and spacing and Doc needs both of those very much. Just apply your spacing from Marth but adjust it to back air. Doc's movement isn't as smooth as Marth's but it's still pretty good. Unlike Marth, Doc has an easier time killing people. Doc has ways to kill at every percent unlike Marth where 80-150 it's difficult.

Coming from PM Mario background... Think of Doc as a slower nerfed PM Mario. Recovery is worse, combos are worse, more landing lag, but more powerful and a more consistent f-air and up-b. Doc has more tech skill though... for example up-b cancel, up-b extension, aerial interrupt, etc. For me personally, SHBAWD is easier in melee than PM same thing with placebo(waveland after pill). D-air isn't as good as PM although still good if used right. IMO Doc's nair is better. F-air is stronger but shorter range.

I'm sure you already knew some of this but i just wanted to paint a picture of the overall difference... basically Doc is slower but more powerful compared to PM Mario.

Overall just learn the Doc tech...
Things that I would say is mandatory for Doc's to learnl:
- SHBAWD
- Placebo
- up-throw > f-air
- pill game
- perfect wavedash / near perfect
- grab combos
- cape usage
- b-air spacing
- d-air auto cancel
- wavedash back in neutral to counter approach (this is huge)
- up-b cancel (not huge but it's really good against shield pressure)

I would say starting learning this things in addition to Doc's neutral...

Speaking of neutral... compared to the other two characters you used to play (Marth and PM Mario)... the biggest difference is that you will be in neutral a lot more. One of Doc's biggest weaknesses is his combo game powerful but short. In other words you will have to accept that you cannot 0-death fast fallers in the way that Shiek or Marth can (final destination being the exception). You also have to accept that as Doc, you will have to give up on the initiative. You cannot approach in the way that Sheik or Fox can. I'm not saying you can't approach... but it's not the same as the previous two characters you played. I would say that it's better to get your opponent to make a mistake and punish then it is to approach. Either wait for an opening or make one but you can't brute force one. You can't rush in like Falco or Captain Falcon. That is something that you will have to accept. An example, as I mentioned in the above list, wavedash back on Doc is incredibly good... just dash dance and when you see an approach wavedash back and punish.

In regards to actually playing Doc... check out the stickied posts
here's a post from me explaining some stuff to another new Doc player
check out the tech skill thread if you want to learn some new stuff

and most importantly if you do decide on this character:
Have fun with the good doctor!
Thank you very much for the very informative reply. I will start practicing this tech and give Doc a go at my next local. I will make sure to read the stickied posts as well. I'll most likely post back with some progress in a week or two!
 
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