Concern about the game's direction after the release of the Joker DLC

[TheSkillMythos]

Before I get started, I want to say that I have been playing Super Smash Bros. since Brawl for the Wii, and I used Meta Knight, so I know what it is like to use a completely OP-broken character. Please don't call me out saying that I don't understand why people want to use Joker so much.

Quick backstory: I main Meta Knight in Smash Ultimate (because I used him in Brawl and he is my favorite character from Kirby), and I was at around ~1,200,000 Global Smash Points before this fiasco happened. I also like to do 1v1s in online because it is very annoying when you are doing team battle and your teammate doesn't do anything, or you are doing free-for-all and everyone gangs up on you. I have also completely cleared World of Light on Hard Mode with the True Ending. So, I guess you could say that I have skills in this game.

So fast-forward to today. I load up the game to do some quick 1v1s, and almost everyone is using Joker! Normally, I beat people who are using standard characters, but Joker is way to OP, and I lost every single time! He has that stupid gauge that allows him to summon his own personal demon spectre (IDK what it is called), and said demon greatly amplifies all of his attacks! I am at zero percent and I get Joker man to 50%, and then that stupid ghost is out, and now Joker is running at light speed and I can't get any hits! He also has a powerful recovery, and a counter, and another counter that fills up the demon ghost gauge, and the special that shoots out a blood-shadow ball, and he attacks so fast! Whenever I am put into a match with a Joker user, I almost always lose! Joker even has an infinite! I decided to switch to Lucina (my other main) to see if that would help, and it didn't!!!!!

If Joker were a normal Smash character that was free, I wouldn't have a problem because I would just switch to him. But he's not! He costs $6!!! ($25 for Fighter Pass)
My problem is that based on this, Smash Ultimate is going to become pay-to-win in the future. If you want to be a top player, you'll either have to spend your money on DLC, or you'll have to train to be able to fight against said DLC. This sucks, because I have already spent $40 on the game, and now I have to spend more money just to be able to become a top player.

If someone on the game team is reading this, please take this into consideration.

I hope you enjoyed my story on how I went from 1,200,000 Global Smash Points to 92,000 in under an hour.

 

[JiggyNinja]

Dude, it's not even been a week. Of course everyone's going to be trying out their new toy.

 

[Wyoming]

Sounds to me you aren't used to the match up yet.

Joker is good but I do not think he is broken. Depending on the character you can cheese him while he has Arsene out and he is fairly weak without him. Kit's overall decent but nothing too crazy.

Also if you want to be a serious tournament player then you need to buy the fighter's pass unless you go to someone's house to play on their setup. Being a top level requires a lot of practice and knowledge.

 

[TheSkillMythos]

Sounds to me you aren't used to the match up yet.

Joker is good but I do not think he is broken. Depending on the character you can cheese him while he has Arsene out and he is fairly weak without him. Kit's overall decent but nothing too crazy.

Also if you want to be a serious tournament player then you need to buy the fighter's pass unless you go to someone's house to play on their setup. Being a top level requires a lot of practice and knowledge.

Thanks for the advice. I don't want to shell out $25 for the Fighter's Pass, but I'm sure that most of my friends will, so I'll see if I can play on their setups. Now that I think about it, I've actually KO'd lots of Joker users, it's just that you have to do it really quickly.
Looking back, Joker may actually be weak to Meta Knight due to how his red-shadow attack works (Meta Knight can teleport), and because Meta Knight has arguably the best recovery in the game (based off of my experience).

Once again, thanks for the advice. I'll ask one of my friends who bought the Fighter's Pass to see if I can practice against Joker on it. After reading your reply, I now realize that Joker isn't broken, it's just that I wasn't used to fighting against him (and I was mad at losing over 1,000,000 GSP in less than an hour)

 

[Xelrog]

There is zero chance of DLC characters being made intentionally OP in some convoluted Nintendo conspiracy for a pay-to-win business model.

 

[TheSkillMythos]

There is zero chance of DLC characters being made intentionally OP in some convoluted Nintendo conspiracy for a pay-to-win business model.

I wasn't trying to call out Nintendo for being greedy/pay-to-win, I was just saying that I was concerned that more OP characters could be added in the future for DLC, and that some players could be put behind a paywall because they don't have access to those characters.

 

[JiggyNinja]

I have also completely cleared World of Light on Hard Mode with the True Ending. So, I guess you could say that I have skills in this game.

This doesn't mean jack ****. I've done that too, multiple times even. Beating the CPUs in pretty much any fighting game does not prepare you for PvP, because most AIs are simultaneously superhumanly good (frame-perfect reactions) and superhumanly stupid (never correcting their mistakes). Things that work on a CPU won't work against a human, and things that work on a human won't work on a CPU.

And I say that as someone who also hovers around 1 mill GSP. PvP is far more frustrating and difficult than WoL on Hard.

 

[TheSkillMythos]

This doesn't mean jack ****. I've done that too, multiple times even. Beating the CPUs in pretty much any fighting game does not prepare you for PvP, because most AIs are simultaneously superhumanly good (frame-perfect reactions) and superhumanly stupid (never correcting their mistakes). Things that work on a CPU won't work against a human, and things that work on a human won't work on a CPU.

And I say that as someone who also hovers around 1 mill GSP. PvP is far more frustrating and difficult than WoL on Hard.

Those are pretty good points. Yes I know that there are CPUs that can predict what you are going to do, or they are just plain stupid and jump off the ledge. However, when I posted that text that you quoted, I wasn't trying to say that I'm the best player or anything.

 

[pupNapoleon]

When I hear Pay-to-win, I hear continual payments needed. In short, free to play games, with power escalation, and a requirement to keep putting in more money to beat the other player. Meaning, whoever pays more, wins.
Smash will always have a large amount of skill required. One payment doesnt make it pay-to-win, because the other person can match that easily.

Also, of course, continual balance patches.

 

[Rhus]

I'm personally far more concerned with Nintendo nerfing projectiles against shields which hurts characters like Duck Hunt, Robin, and Pac Man who are already low-mid/low tier far too much.

I understand people whine about projectiles but there are ways around them.

 

[Crystanium]

Joker is at least high tier, if not high mid tier. He also seems to be an easy character to pick up and use. I say this because a player named Sweet T ended up with Joker in grand finals in under 12 hours of Joker's release. Sweet T faced off against Mr. E, but lost. Still, he could have resetted the set since it went to a fifth match. I've also had a difficult time myself against four Jokers I've fought.

I understand where you're coming from. Arsene packs a punch and the counter/reflector/absorber is quite ridiculous. Arsene can appear at least up to three times on a single stock, so you're expecting maybe nine boosts for Joker in a single match. I've personally had to be very evasive and defensive against Joker. I've succesfully spiked one and almost spiked another, though he launched to the left.

Since Joker players might recover low, you could try using n-air or even Mach Tornado. Yesterday, I used Screw Attack twice on Joker and messed up his recovery. He tried responding out of fear, but fell to his death. I won't be surprised if he receives a bit of nerfs on Arsene, who lasts for 30 seconds. I will be upset, however, if he is buffed. He's already a solid character.

Rhus
Agreed. Why couldn't they buff my main's jab and offer better CQC? I guess us projectile players don't matter.

 

[TheSkillMythos]

I'm personally far more concerned with Nintendo nerfing projectiles against shields which hurts characters like Duck Hunt, Robin, and Pac Man who are already low-mid/low tier far too much.

I understand people whine about projectiles but there are ways around them.

I completely agree that Nintendo shouldn't nerf projectiles. My main, Meta Knight, is weak to Mega Man (who has projectiles), and I'm not complaining

Since Joker players might recover low, you could try using n-air or even Mach Tornado. Yesterday, I used Screw Attack twice on Joker and messed up his recovery. He tried responding out of fear, but fell to his death. I won't be surprised if he receives a bit of nerfs on Arsene, who lasts for 30 seconds. I will be upset, however, if he is buffed. He's already a solid character.

This is what I started doing, and like you said, it works perfectly. I'm still trying to regain my 1,200,000 GSP back, but ever since I figured out how to beat Joker with MK, things have been going smoothly.
My newest strategy with countering Arsene is to simply jump off the edge, use my jumps + Drill Rush to go under the arena, then teleport past Joker, then repeat. That's the strategy I use to wait out respawn invulnerability, it works the same with Arsene.
And yes, if Joker gets buffed, I'll be really pissed off, because Joker is currently top-tier and very OP.

 

[Crystanium]

This is what I started doing, and like you said, it works perfectly. I'm still trying to regain my 1,200,000 GSP back, but ever since I figured out how to beat Joker with MK, things have been going smoothly.
My newest strategy with countering Arsene is to simply jump off the edge, use my jumps + Drill Rush to go under the arena, then teleport past Joker, then repeat. That's the strategy I use to wait out respawn invulnerability, it works the same with Arsene.
And yes, if Joker gets buffed, I'll be really pissed off, because Joker is currently top-tier and very OP.

GSP might say something about your skill, but it also really doesn't. You don't suddenly become worse than thousands of other players just because you lost a match. Skill doesn't work that way. Simply put, don't focus much on GSP. Work on improving your skill with your main and maybe secondaries if you have any. If your strategy works, keep at it. Your opponent might try getting around, but that means you'll just need to modify your strategy or find a new one.

Check out Smashcords (https://smashcords.com) and gain some experience against different players. It might be more active during after-school hours.

 

[TheSkillMythos]

GSP might say something about your skill, but it also really doesn't. You don't suddenly become worse than thousands of other players just because you lost a match. Skill doesn't work that way. Simply put, don't focus much on GSP. Work on improving your skill with your main and maybe secondaries if you have any. If your strategy works, keep at it. Your opponent might try getting around, but that means you'll just need to modify your strategy or find a new one.

Check out Smashcords (https://smashcords.com) and gain some experience against different players. It might be more active during after-school hours.

Thanks for the advice
I tried using Lucina for online, but her recovery kind of sucks and it is really hard to get close to Joker to use neutrals, especially when Arsene is summoned. The only characters that are really viable for Joker are characters that can edge guard really good and characters with stellar recoveries, which is why I like Meta Knight so much - he can KO fighters really fast, which prevents Arsene from being summoned. My strategy is to edge guard Joker so that he is KO'd fast, preventing Arsene from coming out.
I'll also take your advice on GSP, I'll probably do Classic Mode some more. I'm still trying to get 9.9, every time I get a good run, I get to 9.8 (the double Meta Knight fight is super hard).
I'll also check out Smashcords.
Again, thanks for the advice!

 

[pupNapoleon]

TheSkillMythos
I got an alert that you quoted me, but I seem to be unable to find it.

 

[TheSkillMythos]

TheSkillMythos
I got an alert that you quoted me, but I seem to be unable to find it.

I was trying to quote Crystanium, but I accidentally quoted you. I edited said quote to match Crystanium. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Rhus]

Rhus
Agreed. Why couldn't they buff my main's jab and offer better CQC? I guess us projectile players don't matter.

I second both Duck Hunt and Robin and really fail to understand why you have to nerf projectiles of characters whom are entirely contingent on pressuring with them.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I was trying to quote Crystanium, but I accidentally quoted you. I edited said quote to match Crystanium. Sorry for any confusion.

My bad. Just... thought... I ... was... ....loved...here

 

[Crystanium]

Thanks for the advice
I tried using Lucina for online, but her recovery kind of sucks and it is really hard to get close to Joker to use neutrals, especially when Arsene is summoned. The only characters that are really viable for Joker are characters that can edge guard really good and characters with stellar recoveries, which is why I like Meta Knight so much - he can KO fighters really fast, which prevents Arsene from being summoned. My strategy is to edge guard Joker so that he is KO'd fast, preventing Arsene from coming out.
I'll also take your advice on GSP, I'll probably do Classic Mode some more. I'm still trying to get 9.9, every time I get a good run, I get to 9.8 (the double Meta Knight fight is super hard).
I'll also check out Smashcords.
Again, thanks for the advice!

Your best bet is to play against human players. Classic Mode won't do anything for you once you've gotten the controls down and understand how the game works. Avoid fighting CPUs, too. They might be better AI this time, but humans will always adapt, while CPUs are limited. You don't want to be hindered. As for the 9.9 thing, it's possible. I achieved it myself a few months ago. Keep at it.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

I genuinely hope (or any of the upcoming DLC for that matter) doesn't turn into or 2.0.
Smash 4 already became a pay to win game. I don't want to see Smash Ultimate go down the same path.

 

[Arthur97]

I think people overblow Joker. He's only been out a few days and most new fighters are hard to fight when they first come out. People saying high tier at minimum seem to be jumping the gun. Give it time before you say he's OP or not good.

Personally, I've done fairly well against him though except for that one time as DK, but I even managed a match with the big guy then.

Though, this is also fighter 1 (Plant seems very likely to just be a late base fighter), so who knows what kind of brokeness awaits us going forward.

 

[MarioMeteor]

First, at least let the character develop before you immediately start crying.

Second, as with any character in any fighting game, beating Joker is easier when you know how to fight him. To start, trying to box with him when he has Arsene is a bad idea. It’s much safer to run and play defensively, getting in shots whenever you can to drain his rebellion gauge.

 

[Coolboy]

the only thing i find lame is not that you have to pay for DLC but if you want to convert a replay to a video that has a character you don't have they basically force you to buy that character to allow you to convert it..now that is really bull**** >.>
it sucks cause i had a few good matches i really wanted to keep but cause it has Piranha plant (i just don't want this character like at all) it won't let me convert it -.-

 

[Nah]

I don't think that anyone has to worry about DLC becoming broken or making the game become pay to win.

By the end of Smash 4's life, Bayonetta and Cloud were generally agreed upon to be the #1 and #2 in the game. Some even argued that they were in a tier of their own above the other top tiers.

....They were also some of the most complained about characters in that game's lifetime. Now in SmUsh, Bayonetta seems to have been hit with the nerf bat kind of hard. Cloud's Limit only lasts 15 seconds. Piranha Plant is generally considered underwhelming, as far as I know. It seems pretty clear to me from that that Nintendo is afraid of making DLC characters for this game too strong.

It's not to say that Joker is good or bad (character's not even a week old lol), or that future DLC characters won't be good, just that it's likely that we won't have a repeat of history here with bonkers-ass DLC characters.

 

[TheSkillMythos]

Your best bet is to play against human players. Classic Mode won't do anything for you once you've gotten the controls down and understand how the game works. Avoid fighting CPUs, too. They might be better AI this time, but humans will always adapt, while CPUs are limited. You don't want to be hindered. As for the 9.9 thing, it's possible. I achieved it myself a few months ago. Keep at it.

Thank you for

First, at least let the character develop before you immediately start crying.

Second, as with any character in any fighting game, beating Joker is easier when you know how to fight him. To start, trying to box with him when he has Arsene is a bad idea. It’s much safer to run and play defensively, getting in shots whenever you can to drain his rebellion gauge.

My latest strategy is to simply go under the arena, do a reset, then rinse and repeat. It usually works.

I don't think that anyone has to worry about DLC becoming broken or making the game become pay to win.

By the end of Smash 4's life, Bayonetta and Cloud were generally agreed upon to be the #1 and #2 in the game. Some even argued that they were in a tier of their own above the other top tiers.

....They were also some of the most complained about characters in that game's lifetime. Now in SmUsh, Bayonetta seems to have been hit with the nerf bat kind of hard. Cloud's Limit only lasts 15 seconds. Piranha Plant is generally considered underwhelming, as far as I know. It seems pretty clear to me from that that Nintendo is afraid of making DLC characters for this game too strong.

It's not to say that Joker is good or bad (character's not even a week old lol), or that future DLC characters won't be good, just that it's likely that we won't have a repeat of history here with bonkers-*** DLC characters.

I've had some practice against Joker through online and I am starting to think he's just a cross between Cloud and Lucina, just that Arsene is more OP. I think that Arsene just needs to have its time halved and it will be balanced.

 

[Astroking112]

I think that we need to give people more time with the character before even thinking about any changes. Remember that everyone used to think that K. Rool was overpowered.

 

[TheSkillMythos]

I think that we need to give people more time with the character before even thinking about any changes. Remember that everyone used to think that K. Rool was overpowered.

Fair point

 

[MrFrigid]

Before I get started, I want to say that I have been playing Super Smash Bros. since Brawl for the Wii, and I used Meta Knight, so I know what it is like to use a completely OP-broken character. Please don't call me out saying that I don't understand why people want to use Joker so much.

Quick backstory: I main Meta Knight in Smash Ultimate (because I used him in Brawl and he is my favorite character from Kirby), and I was at around ~1,200,000 Global Smash Points before this fiasco happened. I also like to do 1v1s in online because it is very annoying when you are doing team battle and your teammate doesn't do anything, or you are doing free-for-all and everyone gangs up on you. I have also completely cleared World of Light on Hard Mode with the True Ending. So, I guess you could say that I have skills in this game.

So fast-forward to today. I load up the game to do some quick 1v1s, and almost everyone is using Joker! Normally, I beat people who are using standard characters, but Joker is way to OP, and I lost every single time! He has that stupid gauge that allows him to summon his own personal demon spectre (IDK what it is called), and said demon greatly amplifies all of his attacks! I am at zero percent and I get Joker man to 50%, and then that stupid ghost is out, and now Joker is running at light speed and I can't get any hits! He also has a powerful recovery, and a counter, and another counter that fills up the demon ghost gauge, and the special that shoots out a blood-shadow ball, and he attacks so fast! Whenever I am put into a match with a Joker user, I almost always lose! Joker even has an infinite! I decided to switch to Lucina (my other main) to see if that would help, and it didn't!!!!!

If Joker were a normal Smash character that was free, I wouldn't have a problem because I would just switch to him. But he's not! He costs $6!!! ($25 for Fighter Pass)
My problem is that based on this, Smash Ultimate is going to become pay-to-win in the future. If you want to be a top player, you'll either have to spend your money on DLC, or you'll have to train to be able to fight against said DLC. This sucks, because I have already spent $40 on the game, and now I have to spend more money just to be able to become a top player.

If someone on the game team is reading this, please take this into consideration.

I hope you enjoyed my story on how I went from 1,200,000 Global Smash Points to 92,000 in under an hour.

1.2M GSP is prettttttttttty bad in general. I don't think there's much of a difference between 10gsp and 1,000,000 gsp. anything under the 3.5m mark is generally pretty bad. I don't see too many jokers in the 3.5m+ bracket tbh, i'm at 4m with joker and 4.5m with ness, haven't seen too many jokers in elite smash tbh.

 

[Arthur97]

1.2M GSP is prettttttttttty bad in general. I don't think there's much of a difference between 10gsp and 1,000,000 gsp. anything under the 3.5m mark is generally pretty bad. I don't see too many jokers in the 3.5m+ bracket tbh, i'm at 4m with joker and 4.5m with ness, haven't seen too many jokers in elite smash tbh.

Once people learn him, I kind of doubt Joker will be very casual friendly. I mean, he hits hard with his persona but without it...well, how many casual Shieks do you see? So, hopefully when the new wears off he'll just go off to the competitive scene.

 

[TheSkillMythos]

1.2M GSP is prettttttttttty bad in general. I don't think there's much of a difference between 10gsp and 1,000,000 gsp. anything under the 3.5m mark is generally pretty bad. I don't see too many jokers in the 3.5m+ bracket tbh, i'm at 4m with joker and 4.5m with ness, haven't seen too many jokers in elite smash tbh.

I'm just saying, when I was at 1.2m, I found the matches at that level to be quite different from 92K.

 

[Xelrog]

How long ago was this? 1.2m at the game's launch is a far cry from what it means now, what with the Elite Smash threshold rising as more people play the game.

 

[TheSkillMythos]

How long ago was this? 1.2m at the game's launch is a far cry from what it means now, what with the Elite Smash threshold rising as more people play the game.

This was about 2 weeks ago

 

[xwingz900]

I kind of understand what your saying with DLC characters being op and causing a "pay to win" scenario, but it's just business. You have to consider that if Nintendo made their DLC characters weak there would be much less of an incentive for people to buy them. I don't agree with the idea that every new dlc character in the game needs to be the best character in the game or even in the top 10, but from a logical business perspective making the character at least somewhat viable in competitive play is smart. Joker is still new, as the matchup becomes more familiar the character could fall a bit (although I admit some of his kit is stupid broken). If you need some tips for the Joker match up I can help you.

 

[grizby2]

I've had some practice against Joker through online and I am starting to think he's just a cross between Cloud and Lucina, just that Arsene is more OP. I think that Arsene just needs to have its time halved and it will be balanced.

Arsene in my opinion is a double-edged sword for joker. ive lost maybe one fight out of ten to the guy. theres a simple trick to beat him my good sir.

just let him slip up! you as MK can run from him pretty easily, and when arsene is out, he'll likely try to dish out some sweet damage before his precious persona meter goes away. in my experience, this is when he is MOST punishable. a GOOD joker will try to bait out a move from you while arsen is out, so don't let that happen! he's light, so chip at him whenever possible. go into training mode and experiment with percentages for when he'll die to kill moves.

and most importantly, pay attention to how he techs. it'll be different from player to player. if you can pick up on weather they like to roll towards or away from you. you can punish harder! good luck!

also props for sticking with MK despite a couple of his nerfs!

 

[MrFrigid]

Arsene in my opinion is a double-edged sword for joker. ive lost maybe one fight out of ten to the guy. theres a simple trick to beat him my good sir.

just let him slip up! you as MK can run from him pretty easily, and when arsene is out, he'll likely try to dish out some sweet damage before his precious persona meter goes away. in my experience, this is when he is MOST punishable. a GOOD joker will try to bait out a move from you while arsen is out, so don't let that happen! he's light, so chip at him whenever possible. go into training mode and experiment with percentages for when he'll die to kill moves.

and most importantly, pay attention to how he techs. it'll be different from player to player. if you can pick up on weather they like to roll towards or away from you. you can punish harder! good luck!

also props for sticking with MK despite a couple of his nerfs!

This. Get better at the game itself and you shall see that Joker isn't a big deal, AT ALL.
If you wanna get good, I highly recommend IzawSmash on Youtube to get you started. After you've checked out IzawSmash's "The Art Of Smash Ultimate" Series, you can check out videos on specific characters. If you're looking for great combo guides, ConvictedBattler and LordDramane have them for almost every character.

 

[soviet prince]

even if it was true it is only 6 bucks.........

 

[ProfPeanut]

This would definitely be a stronger argument if you were talking about Smash 4 Cloud or Bayo. But I'm confident the Smash team won't let something like that happen again, especially when Joker's mechanic is essentially a reverse of Cloud's.

As it stands, any decent new character should challenge you at the very least, or make you respect what they can do. Much rather have a meaningful addition to the roster who shakes things up, instead of someone who simply loses against the same tactics already used against everyone else.