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Concept - Melee Mode

Would YOU like a Melee-styled mode in Smash for Switch?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 39.2%
  • No

    Votes: 31 60.8%

  • Total voters
    51

Chiliastic

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Smash for Switch should get as much appeal as possible, especially to professional Melee players. So, how can it appeal to that audience? Here's my idea.

Melee Mode: A simple click of a button turns the game's mechanics into Melee's. Perfect for fast professional Melee players who want an HD experience and for loooots of hardcore dash dancing.

Since GameCube controllers are supported on the Switch via the Wii U GameCube adapter, expanding on that controller support should be something that Melee players would be sure to love. That would be Melee Mode. In the options menu (the one where you turn off items, set stocks and such), there would be a new button called Melee Mode. Turning this on gives the game all of the mechanics that Melee had (dash dancing, more tech skills, more combos, etc.) I believe this mode would be perfect for people who are fans of Melee and Melee players who want a high definition experience and an on-the-go experience of Melee.

What do you think? I'm always accepting criticism.
 

NastCF

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If they did this, they would have to balance the entire cast for two sets of physics and mechanics. I can't really see it happening.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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It's not worth it, for reasons already mentioned on the previous post. Sometimes you just have to learn to adapt to new mechanics, regardless of how fast or slow they might be.
 

Atem

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If they made it only be the original melee cast maybe but honestly would you have a mode or Melee HD?
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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L cancelling existed in Smash 4 via custom equipment. Turning that into one of the Special Smash options sounds quick and easy for a new game, and so is heavy gravity to emulate the faster fall speeds and combo ability that melee characters had. But other than that, I don't think Melee's particular mechanics and tech ought to be in the new Smash game unless it really adds something meaningful to the gameplay. And as for putting that stuff in an optional mode, we'd have to balance two games at once and that's not worth it. Like, how are you going to balance how strong shields and shield pressure ought to be when there's a separate mode where characters can wave dash out of shield? That's a huge difference in shield play. Make one game with the most coherent set of mechanics.

And don't worry about Melee players coming over to the new game. They play Melee because they want to play Melee. If the new Smash is well built, then they'll take the dive in learning over 50 new matchups and new tech. Then they could throttle casuals and take the prize money.
 

Tollhouse

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That would require double the amount of playtesting and debugging. While you would be reusing the same character models and movesets, you'd be pretty much making 2 fighting games.
 

Crystanium

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I think a lot of players need to accept the fact that there's never going to be another Super Smash Bros. Melee. It's like they're stuck in some temporal loop of what they consider to be the glory days. I'm not in favor of Melee Mode.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Is it a good idea? Yes.

Is it feasible? No.

It'd take way too much development time for a mode that would be clearly niche. In addition, the GameCube Controllers already need extra programming to be workable for Melee-style controls. That'd even more added development time.

They'd be better off making Melee HD, which would not be a bad thing, as there's a lot to update as is. Balance, full character options, graphics, music, etc. And that would still be fairly niche, so it might not be worth the effort to do all that and fix the controls to work properly with the GameCube Controller stuff.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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They'd be better off making Melee HD, which would not be a bad thing, as there's a lot to update as is. Balance, full character options, graphics, music, etc. And that would still be fairly niche, so it might not be worth the effort to do all that and fix the controls to work properly with the GameCube Controller stuff.
I think balance updates in a Melee re-release would be very poorly received. Melee was updated already - in the PAL release, and nobody likes it. There's not a lot of changes, about half of one of Smash 4's patches and most of them are bug fixes, but there is enough that would absolutely effect the viability of all four top tier characters. So, you might be thinking just do a port, a Virtual Console service is probably arriving on Switch. The problem there is that the PAL release is the most updated version of Melee. Nintendo probably won't think twice about choosing that version of the game for every region since the Switch isn't region locked and PAL has all of the languages.

This would cause a divide in the Melee community, which will grow larger than it ever has with new players learning how to play PAL. If these guys will get divided over the smashbox controller, you can bet they'll get divided over Fox's nerfed Up Smash. I see a lot of Melee players asking for a Melee HD, but I wonder if they're really ready for the ramifications of Melee officially being on a new format.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I think balance updates in a Melee re-release would be very poorly received. Melee was updated already - in the PAL release, and nobody likes it. There's not a lot of changes, about half of one of Smash 4's patches and most of them are bug fixes, but there is enough that would absolutely effect the viability of all four top tier characters. So, you might be thinking just do a port, a Virtual Console service is probably arriving on Switch. The problem there is that the PAL release is the most updated version of Melee. Nintendo probably won't think twice about choosing that version of the game for every region since the Switch isn't region locked.

This would cause a divide in the Melee community, which will grow larger than it ever has with new players learning how to play PAL. If these guys will get divided over the smashbox controller, you can bet they'll get divided over Fox's nerfed Up Smash. I see a lot of Melee players asking for a Melee HD, but I wonder if they're really ready for the ramifications of Melee officially being on a new format.
That's hardly what I mean, anyway. I should've elaborated more on what I mean by updates.

Make Wavedashing work for everyone well, but also balanced it around the characters so using it can be worse for some higher tiers, etc. Matter of testing and all.

L-Cancelling can potentially be removed, and if it's auto, make it so some characters get lag cancel for stronger moves. Namely, the slower characters have less lag than the faster ones to even it out.

I can't think of other major balance changes, though. Just small ones like the PAL release did.

I do agree with your other point, though; Any potential changes could kill the bit of niche it has. That's what makes the project hard to work with as an idea. Likewise, it's why Project M is more than just "Melee again" as well. It's just a small bit of the ideas, as it has a lot of other unique focuses.
 

Almand

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I think it'd be too drastic of a change. Moves that didn't combo now could. Something as simple as Roy's Down Throw can chain to 50-60%, most every 50/50 is now guaranteed so Shiek's Down Throw and Diddy's Up Throw have large confirm windows, combos like Mario, ZSS, or Cloud Up Air can juggle much more cleanly, so on and so forth. Moves, even entire movesets, would have to be reworked to fit Melee's mechanics, and at that point, you're just making Melee HD. It's a fun idea, but I don't think it'd work in practice.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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Just make the whole game melee mode. Then they don't have to balance two modes.
 

SSBBDaisy

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Just make it like Melee and for online make a ranking system so casuals and Smash 4 players can play each other and not have to worry about getting wrecked by melee players forever. Casuals and Smash 4 players won't be able to tell the difference anyways since they don't like Tech or a game with aggressive play.

Edit: so basically Smash 4 players won't do any L canceling or wavedashing or any kind of tech. Be stuck in a gazillion frames of lag after doing a move on somebody's shield so they can get punished for it and play it like rock paper scissors like how they like. While still having all of the mechanics and tech for each character for competitive players
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
I don't see what would be wrong with it, this series has thrived off giving the players options to cater to everyone, this is no different.
 

nirvanafan

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If it was feasible then why not, appealing to both sides is not a bad thing plus any new mode that gives us more fun things to do is something I would support.
 

Oddball

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Melee is over. I'm sorry. I'd rather them move ahead and try to find the next way to make the game more awesome than to go back and try to appeal to a small section of the fanbase that will never be completely satisfied anyway.
 

Fuqua

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i dont think this will happen, however you do have to wonder where the dev team will focus their attention with this game. If its a glorified port, then there should be a lot of time to make some cool stuff. If i had to guess id say they will give us a new story mode, but e melee mode wouldnt be stupid imo. with new characters and all the usual smash stuff you already have most of the casuals in the bag, now what addition to the game would generate the most benefit? Getting the entirety of competitve smash on board by adding such a mode seems like a thing to consider.

You guys still majorly underestimate the benefit that a competitive scene can bring to a game. If you still doubt it it just consider how many games, especially fighting games, focus EXCLUSIVELY on that scene. Theres loads of money to be made there. Smash 5 will consider that scene to some extent without a doubt, but what they will end up doing remains to be seen.

I will say if capcom had the rights to smash, melee hd would have come out 5 years ago, the fact that sakurai is in charge of all of this is what makes predicting this game somewhat difficult.
 

MrRoidley

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I don't think it's possible for the playtesting/debugging reasons people said before. Plus Sakurai doesn't seem to be that fond of those characteristics from Melee that are loved (it's not like he hates Melee but I think he does acknowledge that wavedash or whatever are bugs that were result of Melee's rushed development)

And I don't want it because... Melee is Melee. SSB5 is (will be) SSB5. I don't want SSB5 to be Melee 2, or have a Melee 2 mode. This is coming from someone that thinks Melee is the best game in the series and that would love to see Melee finally getting that HD port
 

Swamp Sensei

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Smash fans already have a bad reputation in the FGC for not being able to let go of the past.

I don't want that stereotype to get worse.
 

Tollhouse

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Releasing a melee v2 with all its wavedashing and advanced techniques intact is about as likely as Spongebob getting into smash 5. It's never gonna happen. It wouldn't be the same. You can't recreate an accident. Designers are always trying to better their past creations and it doesn't make sense to create a game as glitchy as melee.
 

Sarki Soliloquy

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I don't see what would be wrong with it, this series has thrived off giving the players options to cater to everyone, this is no different.
It may seem that way at first. But when you get down to the impact of creating two separate engine settings or even a gravity or speed meter, it ends up creating more problems than it seeks to solve.

Say we have a Melee Mode & "Smash 4 Mode". Players early on experiment with & play with their favorite Mode(s). The competitive scene (ergo Smashboards) arbitrarily favors the Melee Mode due to popular demand, technical brevity, what have you - and rules it tourney standard. Smash 5 now has two (or even three or four if gravity/speed meter) metas with Melee Mode now draining the playerbase of the others. Eventually, Melee Mode will eclipse the other metas, if not killing them off outright. Now we have to deal with a segmented community for a game that is designed to alienate everyone by having them place themselves in a box (and will come to reflect on the reception & legacy of the game.)

You wanted this for competitive play? Then how much of a headache would it be for TOs if we need to schedule & run two adjunct brackets for two different metas in the same game because the community will once again never agree to accept one game? How are we suppose to assuage player turnouts or properly divide setup space proportional to the player pool? Smash 5 is about catering to everyone! So why the hell are we always giving the 2.3 & 2.5 Mode guys cubicles worth of space!?

Melee & Smash 4 both suffer from incredibly flawed systems. But hoooooh boy would Smash 5 take the cake if it brings us both. Why is it so hard to grasp that we can have a Smash 4 derivative (or even a fresh Smash 5) engine that can't also have lots of advanced techs & fluid mechanical interactivity? Are wavedashes & L-Cancels so incompatible with Smash 4 that they won't work even if they aren't frame perfect from Melee? Who's to say we won't find some other tech that defines Smash 5's meta in itself? Or that more binding game mechanics such as Supers or some variable shielding options won't satisfy our competitive itch?

We have Melee & Project M forever. Just play those instead.

Console restriction. Outdated roster. Limited viable characters.
Sooooo you want Project M instead?
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Saying "play this game instead" isn't really a valid point. You can't and play the same characters. They don't exist. The rosters are different. And always will be. You can't expect people to make hacks for this. You can't expect every characters from 4 to be made playable in some Brawl hack. It just doesn't work that way.

The characters with the movesets still aren't available under Melee or something like Project M. It's about using the actual characters from the games under a gameplay engine. That's why people are interested in the mode. It's all-or-nothing in this case. Without the characters, there's no point in asking for the mode at all.

It's understandable to not want to play the Melee engine. That's fine. And yeah, making two separate engines takes way too much time and has issues with competitive play.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
It may seem that way at first. But when you get down to the impact of creating two separate engine settings or even a gravity or speed meter, it ends up creating more problems than it seeks to solve.

Say we have a Melee Mode & "Smash 4 Mode". Players early on experiment with & play with their favorite Mode(s). The competitive scene (ergo Smashboards) arbitrarily favors the Melee Mode due to popular demand, technical brevity, what have you - and rules it tourney standard. Smash 5 now has two (or even three or four if gravity/speed meter) metas with Melee Mode now draining the playerbase of the others. Eventually, Melee Mode will eclipse the other metas, if not killing them off outright. Now we have to deal with a segmented community for a game that is designed to alienate everyone by having them place themselves in a box (and will come to reflect on the reception & legacy of the game.)

You wanted this for competitive play? Then how much of a headache would it be for TOs if we need to schedule & run two adjunct brackets for two different metas in the same game because the community will once again never agree to accept one game? How are we suppose to assuage player turnouts or properly divide setup space proportional to the player pool? Smash 5 is about catering to everyone! So why the hell are we always giving the 2.3 & 2.5 Mode guys cubicles worth of space!?

Melee & Smash 4 both suffer from incredibly flawed systems. But hoooooh boy would Smash 5 take the cake if it brings us both. Why is it so hard to grasp that we can have a Smash 4 derivative (or even a fresh Smash 5) engine that can't also have lots of advanced techs & fluid mechanical interactivity? Are wavedashes & L-Cancels so incompatible with Smash 4 that they won't work even if they aren't frame perfect from Melee? Who's to say we won't find some other tech that defines Smash 5's meta in itself? Or that more binding game mechanics such as Supers or some variable shielding options won't satisfy our competitive itch?

We have Melee & Project M forever. Just play those instead.


Sooooo you want Project M instead?
It's not as hard as people are making it out to be, just give us the option that...

-adds directional air-dodging
-implements smooth lander via l presses, or just smooth lander by itself
-makes gravity heavier

Very simple to implement this as Smash 4 was capable of most of these with certain settings.
 
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LancerStaff

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It's not as hard as people are making it out to be, just give us the option that...

-adds directional air-dodging
-implements smooth lander via l presses, or just smooth lander by itself
-makes gravity heavier

Very simple to implement this as Smash 4 was capable of most of these with certain settings.
Smash 4 wasn’t balanced for it though, so it played like **** as a result. People don’t want that, they want characters to actually work.
 

Sarki Soliloquy

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It's not as hard as people are making it out to be, just give us the option that...

-adds directional air-dodging
-implements smooth lander via l presses, or just smooth lander by itself
-makes gravity heavier

Very simple to implement this as Smash 4 was capable of most of these with certain settings.
I'm down with reintroducing those techs. That shouldn't be too hard to make work just about in any Smash. Its when you touch something so integral to how the game moves like speed or gravity where my alarm bells start to go off. Smash 4 hit a pretty good midground between Melee & Brawl in this respect, so Nintendo/Bandai Namco/HAL should be making an even better, equivalent system out of that.
 

osby

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A melee mod actually can really work. Just make a mod for the competitive players, where there is
  • tournament legal Melee stages
  • 10 tournament viable characters
  • no debugging
It should be satisfying.
 

jwillenn

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I probably wouldn't be interested in using the mode frequently, but for those who would be, I say yes. In fact, I have "Melee Master" as a concept for a Skill (of tons I'd want in the game, including reworked ones from Smash 4) .
 
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TheSpitefulWolf

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the **** is this? no, they're not going to design two seperate ****ing game-engines for one game. **** that garbage. everything, and i mean ****ing every little thing is going to need to be tweaked to make that anything close to a reality for each and every character on the ****ing roster.
 

jwillenn

Smash Apprentice
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^Calm down. We don't know what they've been building. No one here is in a position to say what the energy and resources are or what they are being put towards regarding this game's features. This thread is not asking for that information anyway. It's asking if you would like a Melee Mode.
 
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