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Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character (Now with KO Percents)

Doval

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@ Thinkaman Thinkaman (and everyone else who helped) awesome work, the info in this thread is super useful.

Is there any chance you'd consider reporting more meaningful knockback values? In my opinion the raw BKB and KBG values are useless for comparing moves directly. BKB isn't an accurate reflection of a move's base knockback since it doesn't include the other constants in the knockback formula. It also doesn't include the fixed amount of knockback resulting from the fact that the move increases the enemy's %. KBG doesn't account for the move's damage, so you can't compare moves with different damages directly, and it's not in the same units/scale as BKB so you can't compare them to each other either.

Right now the only useful metric for "move power" in the data is the KO %, but that says much more about knockback growth than base knockback. Personally I'd prefer:

Fixed Knockback: BKB + 0.18 * KBG
Growth Factor: 0.0007 * (Damage + 2) * KBG
Strength Knockback: Growth Factor * Damage

Fixed KB is the portion of knockback that's completely static. Growth Factor is the amount of knockback the move gains per point of damage the enemy has before getting hit (subject to weight scaling.) Strength KB is the knockback from the damage the move causes to the opponent (also subject to weight.)

I derived those numbers by substituting p with % before the attack + Damage and s with KBG/100 in the knockback formula in SSBwiki.com and doing some basic algebra, which ultimately yields:

Weight Factor = 200/(weight + 100)
Knockback = Fixed KB + Weight Factor * (Strength KB + Growth Factor * Enemy %)

You can simplify this a bit by setting Weight Factor to 1 (which is the case for medium weight Miis) so that Fixed KB and Strength KB can be added together. Then you'd be left with only two numbers again, except that unlike BKB and KBG they can be used directly to compare moves at a glance or calculate knockback. If you wanted to be really thorough, you could provide these two numbers for Bowser and Jigglypuff's weights as well to show how weight affects the move.

EDIT:
As an example, I'll run the numbers with Weight Factor = 1 on Samus's f-tilt (7%, 15b/90g) and f-smash (15%, 40b/100g). Both have the same angle (361) so you'd expect the total knockback at their KO %s to match.

F-tilt:
Fixed + Strength KB: 35.169
Growth Factor: 0.567

F-smash:
Fixed + Strength KB: 75.85
Growth Factor: 1.19

At F-tilt's KO % (281), the total knockback would be 35.169 + 0.567 * 281 = 194.496.
At F-smash's KO % (101), the total knockback would be 75.85 + 1.19 * 101 = 196.04.

Both values are close, so the math appears to check out. The difference probably comes from the limited precision of the KO %s. So these numbers are an apples-to-apples comparison between both moves.

EDIT 2: Chose better names for the terms (I hope).
 
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Vipermoon

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I have a question. What does it mean when something says, for example, 0.8 SDI? I see it in the area where the hitlag modifier would be on some attacks.
 

LimitCrown

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I have a question. What does it mean when something says, for example, 0.8 SDI? I see it in the area where the hitlag modifier would be on some attacks.
It means that a character's position would be shifted by 0.8 times the normal amount when they try to SDI during the freeze frames of that attack.
 
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Vipermoon

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It means that a character's position would be shifted by 0.8 times the normal amount when they try to SDI during the freeze frames of that attack.
Okay thanks. That sounds about right. Which confirms SDI in this game.
 

Dantarion

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@ D Doval , I think its best to just put the raw values the game actually uses to compute knockback, and just make sure everyone understands how they work, instead of making up derived terms and formulas to try to make it simpler.

Thats one of the reasons I just post raw data and let you guys have it. My data is 100% accurate, for the most part, and 100% automated. As as to what it means, its up to the masses to figure out. I feel like any attempt to dumb down the data ends up masking out some of the mechanics as to how things work.


Anyways, I know new patch is coming out tomorrow, but unfortunetly, I will be going out of town from Thursday->Sunday. What this means, is that unless a miracle happens, and the patch is out EARLY wednesday before I have to get into pack and trip mode, I won't be able to post automated diffs of things until next weekend most likely.
 

Jaxas

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@ D Doval , I think its best to just put the raw values the game actually uses to compute knockback, and just make sure everyone understands how they work, instead of making up derived terms and formulas to try to make it simpler.

Thats one of the reasons I just post raw data and let you guys have it. My data is 100% accurate, for the most part, and 100% automated. As as to what it means, its up to the masses to figure out. I feel like any attempt to dumb down the data ends up masking out some of the mechanics as to how things work.


Anyways, I know new patch is coming out tomorrow, but unfortunetly, I will be going out of town from Thursday->Sunday. What this means, is that unless a miracle happens, and the patch is out EARLY wednesday before I have to get into pack and trip mode, I won't be able to post automated diffs of things until next weekend most likely.
Well ****.

What time zone are you in? The patch is looking like it'll be out at around 1am PST (or at least that's when server maintenance ends)
 

Vipermoon

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@ D Doval , I think its best to just put the raw values the game actually uses to compute knockback, and just make sure everyone understands how they work, instead of making up derived terms and formulas to try to make it simpler.

Thats one of the reasons I just post raw data and let you guys have it. My data is 100% accurate, for the most part, and 100% automated. As as to what it means, its up to the masses to figure out. I feel like any attempt to dumb down the data ends up masking out some of the mechanics as to how things work.


Anyways, I know new patch is coming out tomorrow, but unfortunetly, I will be going out of town from Thursday->Sunday. What this means, is that unless a miracle happens, and the patch is out EARLY wednesday before I have to get into pack and trip mode, I won't be able to post automated diffs of things until next weekend most likely.
Oh man. Hopefully you can find some time :)
 

Doval

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@ D Doval , I think its best to just put the raw values the game actually uses to compute knockback, and just make sure everyone understands how they work, instead of making up derived terms and formulas to try to make it simpler.

Thats one of the reasons I just post raw data and let you guys have it. My data is 100% accurate, for the most part, and 100% automated. As as to what it means, its up to the masses to figure out. I feel like any attempt to dumb down the data ends up masking out some of the mechanics as to how things work.
Oh, I agree that you should just post the raw data. I think Master Core is perfect the way it is.

I aimed the question at Thinkaman because he's already invested a lot into summarizing/interpreting the raw data to make it more accessible to the average player. I could write a script to pull out the raw move values and turn them into meaningful knockback numbers, but I'd be duplicating a ton of Thinkaman's work.
 

Magik0722

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what does this mean on warios frame data?

Chomp (startup)
Frame 2- 1: Grab

why is it frame 2-1 instead of 1-2? Is that just a typo?
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I'm trying to work out what the deal is with Bowser's Nair through extensive testing. For those that don't know, Bowser has a new Nair in Smash 4 where he performs a cartwheel in the air. His individual limbs act as hitboxes, and the frame data cites three hitboxes dealing 5% each. While hitting all three hitboxes is unlikely regarding living, DIing, human players who are always moving, it is definitely possible, as each hitbox pops opponents into the air at low knockback. Here's the data from the pastebin:

Nair
Frame 8-29: 5% 20b/50g (KO@ 715%) 75°
Frame 14-29: 5% 20b/100g (KO@ 353%) 75°
Frame 18-29: 5% 60b/90g (KO@ 303%) 75°
Max Damage: 5%
Enables transition to Nair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 4
Cancels transition to Nair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 45

Max damage is of course incorrect and should be 15%. But that's not what I want to bring up. When testing on motionless targets, I'm getting several instances of 20% damage total. And the means by which we get 20% is inconsistent as well. Some times the target is hit four times, and other times they are hit thrice, when one hit confirm is dealing 10% damage. Is it possible for a target to be hit by two simultaneous hitboxes on the same frame to make 20%? Or is there really a fourth hitbox in the move?

As far as I can tell, Both of Bowser's arms and the first leg that swings over him serve as the three hitboxes. The second leg doesn't extend as far, and I can't seem to get just that to strike a target to know. Wherever these hitboxes are located, I'm fairly certain that you can't hit a target with the same hitbox twice from a single use of a move. So getting four hits out of it is very puzzling. Anybody got any ideas as to what is happening?
 

Lavani

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I'm trying to work out what the deal is with Bowser's Nair through extensive testing. For those that don't know, Bowser has a new Nair in Smash 4 where he performs a cartwheel in the air. His individual limbs act as hitboxes, and the frame data cites three hitboxes dealing 5% each. While hitting all three hitboxes is unlikely regarding living, DIing, human players who are always moving, it is definitely possible, as each hitbox pops opponents into the air at low knockback. Here's the data from the pastebin:

Nair
Frame 8-29: 5% 20b/50g (KO@ 715%) 75°
Frame 14-29: 5% 20b/100g (KO@ 353%) 75°
Frame 18-29: 5% 60b/90g (KO@ 303%) 75°
Max Damage: 5%
Enables transition to Nair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 4
Cancels transition to Nair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 45

Max damage is of course incorrect and should be 15%. But that's not what I want to bring up. When testing on motionless targets, I'm getting several instances of 20% damage total. And the means by which we get 20% is inconsistent as well. Some times the target is hit four times, and other times they are hit thrice, when one hit confirm is dealing 10% damage. Is it possible for a target to be hit by two simultaneous hitboxes on the same frame to make 20%? Or is there really a fourth hitbox in the move?

As far as I can tell, Both of Bowser's arms and the first leg that swings over him serve as the three hitboxes. The second leg doesn't extend as far, and I can't seem to get just that to strike a target to know. Wherever these hitboxes are located, I'm fairly certain that you can't hit a target with the same hitbox twice from a single use of a move. So getting four hits out of it is very puzzling. Anybody got any ideas as to what is happening?
There's four different hitboxes for the attack, one on each of his limbs. They go active in the order of left arm (frame 8), right arm (frame 14), and right+left leg (frame 18). All four hitboxes have unique group IDs, so all four can hit the same opponent, making for a max possible damage of 20%.

Something about how Thinkaman's script dumps the data probably saw two hitboxes added on frame 18 and grouped them together instead of leaving them separate, but there is in fact four hitboxes.
 

Indigo Jeans

 
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what does this mean on warios frame data?

Chomp (startup)
Frame 2- 1: Grab

why is it frame 2-1 instead of 1-2? Is that just a typo?
Probably an issue with weird entity changes or multiple entities within the same subaction. Don't know how to explain it well but the same thing happens with Robin's smashes and aerials and Villager's turnips. There are distinct cases brought on by certain usages being handled by the same subaction, with all of them active at the same time.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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There's four different hitboxes for the attack, one on each of his limbs. They go active in the order of left arm (frame 8), right arm (frame 14), and right+left leg (frame 18). All four hitboxes have unique group IDs, so all four can hit the same opponent, making for a max possible damage of 20%.
Interesting! I wanted to make guesses at which arm was for sure the first hitbox, but I couldn't tell after testing. If the first hitbox is one arm in particular, then that creates a slightly different move depending on whether Bowser is facing left or right. His right and left limbs switch animations. Or do the hitboxes alternate as well? It seems the frame 8 hit is whatever arm swings above Bowser first.
 

Lavani

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Interesting! I wanted to make guesses at which arm was for sure the first hitbox, but I couldn't tell after testing. If the first hitbox is one arm in particular, then that creates a slightly different move depending on whether Bowser is facing left or right. His right and left limbs switch animations. Or do the hitboxes alternate as well? It seems the frame 8 hit is whatever arm swings above Bowser first.
Oh, I didn't realize his animations worked like that. The hitboxes would alternate, the attack doesn't behave differently depending on facing. You're right that the arm he swings up first is the first hitbox, then it goes in order from there.
 

divade

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BowserJr.'s dair says it's max damage is 24, it says that as if it's possible to get hit by both atrial hit box's and the grounded hit box simultaneously, but the max I've seen in training is 10 or 11.
 
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Indigo Jeans

 
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BowserJr.'s fair says it's max damage is 24, it says that as if it's possible to get hit by both atrial hit box's and the grounded hit box simultaneously, but the max I've seen in training is 10 or 11.
You're looking at DAir.
 

Psyruby

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Will the full data ever have cooldown on it? I'm kinda desperate for that information as I have a terrible time understanding timing without seeing numbers for it.
 

Indigo Jeans

 
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Cooldown is not easily available to dataminers, so people have to mine that manually using video capture (unlike in Brawl, where cooldown was also accessible through data dumps iirc).

So basically you just have to hope that someone with good video capturing and analysing equipment cares enough about your character to gather that information.
 

Psyruby

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Cooldown is not easily available to dataminers, so people have to mine that manually using video capture (unlike in Brawl, where cooldown was also accessible through data dumps iirc).

So basically you just have to hope that someone with good video capturing and analysing equipment cares enough about your character to gather that information.
Alright, thanks for the information. I wasn't sure how it worked for Smash 4.
 

TLMSheikant

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Are the Spin Attacks really active on Frame 4? I've heard people say Link's spin Attack was buffed recently from Frame 11 to 8 so which is it? @_@
 

Lavani

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Are the Spin Attacks really active on Frame 4? I've heard people say Link's spin Attack was buffed recently from Frame 11 to 8 so which is it? @_@
Grounded spin attack shows frame 4 in the data dump because it's a separate subaction for the point after the charge window. The move doesn't start frame 4.
 

TLMSheikant

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Grounded spin attack shows frame 4 in the data dump because it's a separate subaction for the point after the charge window. The move doesn't start frame 4.
Welp, I see. That's disappointing. The Toon Links have believed its frame 4 for a while now thanks to that haha. Thanks for clarifying. Also, where can I find the actual startup of the move?
 

Lavani

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Welp, I see. That's disappointing. The Toon Links have believed its frame 4 for a while now thanks to that haha. Thanks for clarifying. Also, where can I find the actual startup of the move?
Someone would have to find it manually by counting frames from a 60fps recording, or using it at the same time as other moves with known startups and seeing if it beats it/clanks.
 
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Indigo Jeans

 
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I didn't see this in the pastebin or anywhere else so

pikmin_pikmin
Code:
subaction-016: FSmash-Red
subaction-019: USmash-Red
subaction-01D: DSmash-Red
subaction-01E: FAir-Red
subaction-01F: BAir-Red
subaction-020: UAir-Red
subaction-021: DAir-Red
subaction-023: Grabbing-Red?
subaction-029: Pummel-Red
subaction-02B: FThrow-Red
subaction-02C: BThrow-Red
subaction-02D: UThrow-Red
subaction-02E: DThrow-Red
subaction-032: Explosive Pluck-Red
subaction-040: (Sticky) Pikmin Throw hit-Red
subaction-042: Tackle Pikmin Throw-Red
subaction-044: Pikmin Throw pummel-Red
subaction-045: Sticky Pikmin Throw pummel-Red
subaction-06D: Order Tackle-Red
subaction-071: Order Tackle travelling hit-Red

I think the only one I missed was subaction-041; it's a 9% hit with set duration (rather than variable duration like Order Tackle's travelling hit) and it enables a state transition on F2. Any ideas?

Also I'm wondering if maybe all of the Pikmin hits are identical except in attribute and damage.
 
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NimbusSpark

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A question, is the 1.0.4 Frame Speed chart the same as what the 1.0.6 chart should be?
I'm honestly just wondering, I'm trying to build a Character Information spreadsheet using Google Drive and I could use a bit of confirmation for it.
 

Luigi player

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A question, is the 1.0.4 Frame Speed chart the same as what the 1.0.6 chart should be?
I'm honestly just wondering, I'm trying to build a Character Information spreadsheet using Google Drive and I could use a bit of confirmation for it.
No, some moves are confirmed a few frames different than before (like Charizards dtilt), and a few aren't 100% correct (like Megamans nair).
 

Indigo Jeans

 
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Yeah, like Luigi player said, some moves had their hit frames modified in v1.0.6 (Link's grounded UpB, Charizard's DTilt). Other moves are just weird and have vital frame information elsewhere, like Mega Man's buster attacks, so the frame speed chart is incorrect for them (buster shots hit on F8 btw).
 

Blobface

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Out of curiosity, is there any formula for Rage as of yet? Does anyone concretely know how it affects knockback? I've heard from about 15% extra to 25% extra elsewhere, but I wanted to be sure.
 
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Vipermoon

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Out of curiosity, is there any formula for Rage as of yet? Does anyone concretely know how it affects knockback? I've heard from about 15% extra to 25% extra elsewhere, but I wanted to be sure.
I don't know for sure but I feel like rage only affects base knockback and not knockback growth. Does anyone know if that's true? If not maybe if affects base more?

But yeah it seems to really benefit moves with high base kb.
 
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LimitCrown

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I don't know for sure but I feel like rage only affects base knockback and not knockback growth. Does anyone know if that's true? If not maybe if affects base more?

But yeah it seems to really benefit moves with high base kb.
Rage is a regular knockback multiplier. The knockback of moves are multiplied by the same amount, which depends on the amount of damage sustained by the user. The effect is more noticeable with moves with high base knockback, but it doesn't increase base knockback only. This is due to how knockback is calculated.
 
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Psyruby

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Out of curiosity, is there any formula for Rage as of yet? Does anyone concretely know how it affects knockback? I've heard from about 15% extra to 25% extra elsewhere, but I wanted to be sure.
Maximum rage is a 15.4% increase to your knockback. However this significantly affects your kill percents. If you tested a 0% Hoo-Hah(pre patch) on Bowser, it would kill at 120%, a max rage Hoo-Hah(pre patch) kills at 80%.

The formula is linear btw. And a rough estimate is Your percent*.1 = Rage Boost to Knockback. Which is pretty accurate as Rage mostly slopes out near 150%.
 

Indigo Jeans

 
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Maximum rage is a 15.4% increase to your knockback. However this significantly affects your kill percents. If you tested a 0% Hoo-Hah(pre patch) on Bowser, it would kill at 120%, a max rage Hoo-Hah(pre patch) kills at 80%.

The formula is linear btw. And a rough estimate is Your percent*.1 = Rage Boost to Knockback. Which is pretty accurate as Rage mostly slopes out near 150%.
Can I get a link to the thread/post this is from, if there is one?
 

LimitCrown

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The rage multiplier begins to increase at approximately 30% damage and stops increasing at approximately 150% damage. The maximum value for the rage multiplier is approximately 1.15x.
 

Vipermoon

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The rage multiplier begins to increase at approximately 30% damage and stops increasing at approximately 150% damage. The maximum value for the rage multiplier is approximately 1.15x.
How do we know it doesn't start before 30?
 

LimitCrown

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How do we know it doesn't start before 30?
It's mainly from a portion of this post in the Mechanics and Techniques discussion thread.

As for how rage scales with %, I think some of the people that have tested it came to the conclusion that it doesn't start until like 30 something % and ends at 150%. I'd wager it scales linearly starting from that point until 150.
 
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