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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Hydreigonfan01

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Kameme actually thinks Sora is higher then top 20
Translation: "Or so I thought, I think there's only about 5 characters that's tough for him, so maybe he's even better"

I believe he thinks those 5 characters are :ultpyra:/ :ultmythra:, :ultfox:, :ultcloud:, :ultdiddy: and :ultminmin.
 
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Arthur97

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Yeeeeeah. Though even if it's just those fighters, those are some pretty bad ones to be weak against. Fox, Diddy, and Min Min may not be as prevelant, but the Aegis sisters and Cloud are pretty bad. And all of them are good.
 

Frihetsanka

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It makes sense that he'd think highly of Sora given that he's a competitive player who chose the character. Usually people pick up a DLC partly because they like the character and partly because they think it's a strong character. Even MkLeo thinks Byleth is a high tier. Cosmos thought Corrin was top 15 and a decent amount of Corrin players thought that she was like top 25-30. Having faith in your character is probably important, and sometimes it turns out to be warranted (such as with Steve) and sometimes it's not. Personally I'm not sold on Sora as top 20 but time will tell, I suppose. We know that mid tiers and high tiers can do well in Ultimate, and even top 40 characters can win majors.

BassMage and Dabuz are two notable exceptions, they are top players who consider their mains (Jigglypuff and Rosalina) mid tiers. BassMage is a character specialist who probably doesn't aim to be a top 20 player in the world (if he did he should probably consider a better character, although many would be sad to see his Jigglypuff go), and Dabuz plays multiple characters to compensate for Rosalina's weaknesses, and he has a ton of experience from Smash 4.
 

Arthur97

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Don't a decent amount of pros tend to downplay their mains as well? Perhaps not as common, and I don't think I've seen it as much lately, but certainly a phenomenon.
 

Frihetsanka

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Don't a decent amount of pros tend to downplay their mains as well? Perhaps not as common, and I don't think I've seen it as much lately, but certainly a phenomenon.
Top tier mains downplay their mains, mid tier mains overrate their mains, as a rule of thumb. High tier mains could go either way. Low tier mains either admit they play bad characters or call them mid tiers.

Sora is currently #62 on OrionStats (based on results), 21st worst results in the game. I imagine he'll move up a bit thanks to Kameme but so far Sora's results haven't been very impressive. In theory I'm not too sold on the character either, although Kameme seems to believe in him. There's also the factor of Kameme being an incredible player and Japan being, by far, the strongest region.
 

blackghost

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Top tier mains downplay their mains, mid tier mains overrate their mains, as a rule of thumb. High tier mains could go either way. Low tier mains either admit they play bad characters or call them mid tiers.
unless you play bayo then everyone else overrates your character and you simply tell the truth. LOL

yeah soras not top 20. and theres no way its just those five he loses to. id add olimar, lucina, samus, pika, bayo, byleth, sonic, palutena, and steve. possibly seph. and im sure theres others that qualify as well.

any character with a true non-committal anti-air or any hard zoner with a strong reversal. sora plays a slow game of nickel and diming you to death. players will watch the matches and figure something out. it was the first time sora done much people arent ready to get timed out AND face a new character.

curious how long it will be before twitch chat turns on sora for these slow games tho. its such a conflict of interests. character they love with a playstyle they hate.
 

Arthur97

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That is a good point. Will bias reign supreme like with swordies in general or will people turn on Sora for being very campy?
 

NotLiquid

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That is a good point. Will bias reign supreme like with swordies in general or will people turn on Sora for being very campy?
I already postulated about public reception of Sora in my post on the last page, and if you set aside the fact that the admiration for him is currently heavily influenced by community optics more than anything, I can't imagine the public is going to turn on him for a while, at least while he's still low key.

If you look at some of the more disliked underrepresented characters, the one that immediately comes to mind is Banjo & Kazooie. One of the main reasons Banjo is so disliked by people is because they claim he's campy, but the reality of the situation the way I see it is that people dislike him because his output is molasses. Back some time ago I posted an out-of-context screenshot of OwlBBS being up two stocks over Chag's Palutena despite being at 200% damage. What largely went unmentioned about that set is that it highlighted how for all of the cool tech Banjo showed like his Blaster combos and cancels, the most optimized Banjo combos barely scratched 30%. That's Sheik numbers of average damage output for a character arguably expected to play closer to Snake, and Sheik at least in her prime performance exhibits game play that relies on second-to-none aggro. Playing campy is one thing, but to have rewards so bad with inconsistent reliability to push advantage is anathema to any audience empathy. There was no easy hook to rally behind a character who's virtues were extolled only by the most fringe of player bases. Sora meanwhile might lean defense, but there's no questioning his capabilities to get decent damage, convert into KOs, keep opponents juggled, and generally keep the game's momentum going, even with his slow mobility. Sure, he has to be on the butt end of playing wi-fi tier matches against Sonic, but he's not the only character who has to put up with that, and while players like MinMain have demonstrated that Sora is very powerful at planking, the most successful performances we've seen of him do not go with that as the optimal strat.

That aside, I also think last weekend showed that there's genuinely something electrifying about the way Sora's magic system works from an audience perspective. Firaga and Blizzaga both allow Sora to jockey between playing slightly more aggressive, while Thundaga is more of a move to use in advantage since it's tricky to hit but provides a satisfying pop when it happens. Not being given the liberty to freely use whichever you want means that there's a rhythm to Sora where you're basically waiting for that balance to shift. Having to watch Sora is basically watching two different games happening; the one on screen and the one on the UI. Steve kind of has that factor as well but the worth of his materials is pretty abstract from a spectator's perspective and it's not as deterministic, especially when the only thing everyone's expecting to happen is the Diamond win state, and when it also hides things like redstone.

The most derogatory comments I'd read the whole weekend was how Sora was a "Mickey Mouse character". The worst thing people could agree about him in the moment was how his play style is hilariously funny and how it works despite everything. Of course, it took some time until the joke ran its course when Steve had similar sentiments, but there were a lot of reasons things soured quickly for him, and as long as Sora is still the underdog I'd be surprised if things change so radically.

EDIT: Related, new Tweek Talks is up and the main topic is Sora. Tweek thinks he's Top 20 and better than Sephiroth.

 
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Arthur97

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Not sure his magic is really that much of a game changer. At least not to the point of "watching two games." Especially when the spells themselves aren't really that impressive. Thundagra sharing a consistency issue like other bits of Sora's moveset that despite amazing execution, just can't seem to be fully ironed out with good play.

That said, I also wonder if it'll change specifically when people, at least those that can, just start waiting it out more like Sonix did. Granted, yes, he's the golden boy people are desperate to be good, but it wouldn't be the first time a golden child ended up disliked. Because, yes, Sora can get KO's and conversions, he seems to prefer having you come to him. And the community, really, really doesn't seem to zoners or more defensive playstyles. Not saying he's a zoner by the way.

Underdog element may help more because of who he is, but it may not be able to save him. We'll have to wait and see if he becomes anything more than an anomaly like the two Macs in top 32.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Tweek thinks he's Top 20 and better than Sephiroth.
Sephiroth, #11 on OrionStats. Sora, #62. Interesting take for sure. Results aren't everything though, clearly Sephiroth isn't #11 and Sora is clearly better than #62. Seems Ned is going to focus more on Pokémon Trainer from now on, which makes sense to me since that's the better character. I'm not sold on Sora just yet but we'll see what happens. Kameme believes in the character, which is a good sign since that lowers the chance of him dropping Sora.
 

Frihetsanka

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Hmm, based on that seeding, I could see SHADIC beating Zomba, and I could see Yonni beating Maister. I could also see BassMage beating ESAM.
 

Frihetsanka

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SHADIC faced off against Zomba at Rise N Grind IIRC and lost pretty badly. Yonni has taken a set off of Maister but I think it's Maister's favour overall.
I mean, yes, the #1 seed is likely to beat the #16 seed and the #2 seed is likely to beat the #15 seed, but I could see an upset happening. Cosmos versus ESAM wouldn't be nearly as big of an upset (#3 seed vs #4 seed), but the #16 seed (SHADIC) beating the #1 seed (Zomba)? That'd be pretty significant, and plausible enough. Yonni will probably lose to Maister but Maister seems to have some trouble with Steve and Yonni is improving rapidly (at least from a tech perspective) so I think it's plausible enough.

If I were to put numbers on it, I would say 80-20 for Maister vs Yonni, 90-10 for Zomba vs SHADIC. Which, given the seed, is pretty notable.

Cosmos vs Lima, hmm... 97-3 maybe? ESAM vs BassMage 75-25, I think BassMage has a decent shot at making an upset.

All numbers are taken more or less out of thin air and should not be taken too seriously.
 

TCT~Phantom

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One thing to note is that Hurricane Ian might make it so some players are forced to DQ. ESAM and Goblin both are from Florida and transportation out of the state could be rough. Idk how many other players are from regions hit hard by the hurricane, but I hope all of them are safe and that they can get to Lost Tech safely. Obviously though their safety comes first before them playing smash, so I hope at least everyone in the area if they can’t travel is safe and secure.
 

st0pnsw0p

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Maister seems to have some trouble with Steve
Eh, not really. Liquipedia says he's currently 16-13 in gamecount against Steve (offline only), and 6 of those losses come from Onin, who is head and shoulders above the other NA Steves. If you discount those two sets he has a solid 15-7 record against Steves gamewise, and as far as I can see the only other time he's lost a set to Steve was against Yonni (whom he's up 2-1 against in sets) at Genesis 8 going mostly Sora. Though the DDee set was close and who knows how it would have gone if the kid hadn't switched to PT on game 4.
 

Frihetsanka

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You don't think those stats would count as "having trouble against Steve"? This is Maister we're talking about, he's ranked far above all Steve players aside from acola (who he hasn't played versus) and Onin. Maister is arguably a top 10 player (at least top 15), and him dropping that many games against opponents ranked much lower than him probably means something. Yonni is one of the better Steve players too so I think it's quite plausible (around 20% chance) that Yonni gets the upset.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Xerzal, one of the best Min Min players in NA, is apparently picking up and practicing :ultlucina:.
Just more evidence that this is the deadliest co-main combination in the game, just because of how different these two characters are.
 

Arthur97

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Well, Proto does seem the most devoted and developed true co-main there is. Not sure if it's the best or just in the hands of the best co-main.
 

Frihetsanka

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Just more evidence that this is the deadliest co-main combination in the game, just because of how different these two characters are.
I think Aegis + Min Min would be a better combination than Lucina + Min Min. Apparently Xerzal wanted to secondary Aegis over Lucina but didn't like Aegis recovery.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Top 8 of VCA 2022

Winners
Glutonny :ultwario: vs Bloom4Eva :ultbayonetta::ultbrawler:
Leon :ultlucina: vs Abadango :ultmetaknight::ultpalutena::ultsamus::ultpikachu:

Losers
Trim :ultmegaman: vs Peli :ultsonic:
Space :ultinkling::ultmythra: vs Sisqui :ultdarksamus:

Is it just me or have we been seeing more Mega Man players making top 8 recently. Obviously Repo made top 8 at the start of the year at Kagaribi 6 and got 9th at Maesuma TOP 8, but Peabnut got 2nd at Riptide and now this. Plus Kameme still uses Mega Man as a secondary.
 
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The_Bookworm

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:ultbayonetta: players eating good today, between this victory for Bloom4Eva, and Lima just getting top 8 at Lost Tech City at winner's.

Anyways, Lost Tech City top 8.

Winner's
Zomba:ultrob: vs Marss:ultzss:
Maister:ultgnw: vs Lima:ultbayonetta1:

Loser's
Niko:ultcloud: vs Lui$:ultpalutena:
Scend:ultness: vs KirbyKid:ultkrool:


You guys are not seeing things. We have a :ultkrool: in top 8 of a big event (not sure if this is big enough to be called a major, but still sizable), and it was nearly joined by an :ultincineroar: if it weren't for a herculean comeback by Niko.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Bloom4Eva thinks :ultbayonetta: is top 10 BTW, while I'm not convinced at that, these are very strong performances. My personal opinion is high tier because Afterburner Kick and Witch Twist are still very strong tools to have in your arsenal and the buffs she had was nice. I think just like with a lot of Smash 4 top tiers, people looked at how she got nerfed, and immediately said the character was bad.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Bloom4Eva thinks :ultbayonetta: is top 10 BTW, while I'm not convinced at that, these are very strong performances. My personal opinion is high tier because Afterburner Kick and Witch Twist are still very strong tools to have in your arsenal and the buffs she had was nice. I think just like with a lot of Smash 4 top tiers, people looked at how she got nerfed, and immediately said the character was bad.
To be fair, the was character WAS pretty bad. Calling vanilla Ultimate Bayo a dysfunctional mess would be putting it kindly.

However, the character was been blessed multiple times from buffs from game updates (primarily from patch 3.1.0, 8.0.0, and 12.0.0) that not only significantly improved her consistency and stability as a character, but also improved her tools overall.

I think players have overlooked how impactful game updates have been for the game overall, as some characters got significant tier changes thanks to these buffs, and those that still remain in the low tiers to this day are still much better characters than they were at launch.
 

NairWizard

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Bayo wins some pretty top-tier matchups just because of how she works, regardless of the buffs.

Even if you think she doesn't autowin against ROB, she does pretty well in that matchup and always has.
And what does Roy do against Bayo in neutral? Any movement you commit to can be caught by burst, and Roy doesn't have the aerial drift or range to safely bait and poke her. Roy has to get really close to even pretend to have shield safety, and then Witch Twist might just hit him anyway. In this MU, Roy's got to run up and shield to avoid heel slide, and then he gets put offstage and edgeguarded or ledgetrapped.

She probably beats Min Min because of ABK. Being able to punish Min Min from ranges she can't safely cover with a second arm is a crazy advantage in that MU (half the reason that Sephiroth does OK in what would be an otherwise abysmal matchup is being able to get Wing and attack from diagonal angles). Min Min's usual anti-edgeguarding Ram Ram defense can get beaten by aerial burst, and Bayo can keep her at ledge forever.

And she looks like she's at worst even with Wario, but probably wins that MU.

If you beat ROB, Min Min, Roy, and possibly Wario, you're probably a great character. Is there any other character in the game who can claim that besides theory Pikachu?

Bayo probably loses to characters like Cloud and Aegis who couple range with strong burst, or some weird zoners like Snake and Pacman, but that's just a handful of matchups, really. I can easily buy that she's top 20-25 if Bloom wants to claim that (top 10 may be pushing it; there are a lot of good characters).
 

Hydreigonfan01

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If you beat ROB, Min Min, Roy, and possibly Wario, you're probably a great character. Is there any other character in the game who can claim that besides theory Pikachu?
I'd say Shulk is a contender, though mostly in theory because ROB can be annoying in practice. Though Ramses thinks Shulk is top 1 with no losing matchups lol.
 
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Aligo

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Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't a big issue with bayo that sdi could be used to mitigate her combos thereby reducing her damage output. Or did they fix that in a patch?
 

The_Bookworm

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Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't a big issue with bayo that sdi could be used to mitigate her combos thereby reducing her damage output. Or did they fix that in a patch?
The main problem in the past was that her combos used to be very inconsistent whether they work or not, and her multi-hits was also fairly inconsistent as a whole, both of which are very bad things to happen on a character completely centered around her combo game. Her toolkit as a whole used to be borderline dysfunctional on an already high maintenance character, and both Witch Time and her overall KO power used to be even weaker.

Patches alleviated this for the most part. Patch 3.1.0 added an additional hitbox to Witch Twist that helped it connect better, and patch 8.0.0 lowered it's SDI multiplier from 2x to 1.5x. Both of those patches also did wonders to fix her infamously inconsistent up tilt, one of her main combo starters.
Her ability to combo as a whole also got enhanced by the endlag reductions on both forward tilt 3 and Heel Slide.

After getting nerfed early on, Witch Time also received some nice buffs on patch 3.1.0 and 12.0.0.
Her overall KO power also got buffed both directly and indirectly; indirectly because of her overall more functional toolkit allowing her rack up damage easier and land KO confirms easier; directly because of game update buffs to moves like jab finisher, dash attack, forward smash, and down smash.

So yeah, huge winner for game update patches overall.
 
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Trunks159

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Somehow all of the Smash 4 top tiers are slowly returning.
:ultbayonetta::ultcloud::ultfox::ultrosalina::ultzss::ultdiddy::ultsonic: kinda :ultryu::ultcorrinf:.

If only someone told :ultsheik: the coast is clear.
 

The_Bookworm

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Somehow all of the Smash 4 top tiers are slowly returning.
:ultbayonetta::ultcloud::ultfox::ultrosalina::ultzss::ultdiddy::ultsonic: kinda :ultryu::ultcorrinf:.

If only someone told :ultsheik: the coast is clear.
Cries in Mewtwo.

But yeah, the fact that a lot of SSB4's top tiers are returning to the forefront of the meta, or at the very least getting better metagame presence, is all very interesting to me.

Fox, Mario, and ZSS were always strong in Ultimate, the latter of which even receiving a few nerfs, but everyone else was definitely in much less desirable conditions that buffs from patches needed to fix.

Sheik, Diddy, Bayo, Rosalina, Ryu, Corrin, and Mewtwo were at absolute miserable states at launch, some of the weakest characters in the entire game, and while Cloud and Sonic fared much better, they were still seen as not that great (well Cloud later on was seen as not that great).

These former titans of SSB4 all received a huge immense amount of buffs from game updates that greatly aided their viability, with some even being some of the most buffed characters in Ultimate's patch cycle. Even Mewtwo, who is definitely the weakest of the above mentioned characters, is still an infinitely better character now than at launch.

The result of all of this coming into fruition this past year, but I do find it funny that it is these characters in particular.
 

blackghost

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bloom is good but i still believe europe is just weak to bayo in general and im still not sure why they are. it honestly frequently looks like mU inexperience.

maister clearly got some coaching between set 1 and 2 vs lima. he cleaned up his entire gameplan from one set to the other.

bayo is nowhere near top ten.

lima is a master of the character but bayo doesnt have the frame data or neutral to force other elite characters to fight her way and her inability to consistently kill (idk how people debate this to this day) always bites her in the behind.

yes her jab kills her jab is frame 9.

good showing from two elite bayos but no she's no top ten id struggle to place her in high mid. if she was a brand new character in ultimate there's no chance shed even be argued to be a high tier. not with combo characters like Kazuya, ryu, ken, and terry and falco exist.

also her not ledge snapping with her witch twist means shes food for anyone that knows what they are doing vs her.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Somehow all of the Smash 4 top tiers are slowly returning.
:ultbayonetta::ultcloud::ultfox::ultrosalina::ultzss::ultdiddy::ultsonic: kinda :ultryu::ultcorrinf:.

If only someone told :ultsheik: the coast is clear.
Eim, Zackray, Sylph and Kameme have given good Sheik results in Japan even if the Sheik's over in NA aren't really doing much. I think Sheik fits in there too, in the same area as Ryu and Corrin.

Though Mewtwo and Marth are not doing too hot.
 
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Arthur97

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Yeah, Bayo as top ten seems extremely suspect. Besides, doing good against some top tiers really shouldn't buy you a top tier position on its own since in Ultimate they aren't your only threats. You also have to contend with a very capable high tier and even some mid tier.
 

F4lcoMain

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If you beat ROB, Min Min, Roy, and possibly Wario, you're probably a great character. Is there any other character in the game who can claim that besides theory Pikachu?
Honestly, I think Falco has a pretty solid MU vs Wario and ROB. Tilde says Min Min is a winning matchup if the Falco player is aggressive, but it can be a suspect MU at lower levels I think. Roy is either even or slight Roy favor, but on the flipside, Falco does pretty solid against some other suspect characters like Pacman. Bayo and Falco are arguably similar characters gameplan wise, so it does make sense they would have similarish MU's vs these characters.
 

Sucumbio

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