Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Diddy Kong]

I think it's quite accurate too. I'd place Palutena under R.O.B. however, move Cloud and Sephiroth a tier higher, put Pac Man, Sheik and Steve lower in their respective tiers, also move up Wario one tier, but the rest seems quite good.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for the Smash tournaments in Japan that happened on Christmas Day

DAWN #3

1. Akakikusu
2. Jagaimo
3. Konokururu
4. Aegis
5. TKM
5. AyaLin
7. Gorioka
7. Ly

Sumabato SP 22
1. Kome
2. Tsumusuto
3. komorikiri
4. shori
5. Luminous
5. Toura
7. Rizeasu
7. sssr

 

[Cheryl~]

isn't TKM the Peach main that beat MkLeo's Joker while he was training him in Japan for a few weeks in 2019? Surprising to see that he shifted his character over to well, the "new meta", that being Byleth/Diddy Kong.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Wait so people think is like a top 5 character now? All it took was Zomba's wild performance at SWT?


Yeah I can see R.O.B has enough crazy jank and comeback potential to UNGA though most bad MU's, but I say he is around lower top 10 which is still very contested area

 

[Djmarcus44]

VoiD's new tier list

There was a problem fetching the tweet

, and are on the row below this one and are considered bottom 3.

The Gunner placement doesn't make any sense to me. Capitancito got 25th at the latest SWT beating Tilde in what many 1332 Gunners consider to be our worst matchup. In addition to the Sumabato result, Tsumusuto also won Critical Hit with mostly Gunner. He was able to secure the victory by switching to cannon jump kick against Kome.

If anyone has VoiD's reasoning, that would be appreciated. The last time I saw him mention Gunner, he didn't think Gunner had kill confirms.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I don't think there's much reasoning behind that and a few other placements in voids tier list. There's just so many characters in this game.

Man I hope Komo makes Sora work and goes to the states and upsets people.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

properly give Byleth his dues

I disagree very much with this. I have the opinion that Byleth is a high tier, but not top tier. He is too slow to combat camping, he has an issue where he has multiple moves that are really bad, and his close quarters leave a lot to be desired. His grabs are also pretty bad and his shield breaking stuff is pretty easy to avoid if you watch out for it. I just think that MKLeo is simply cracked with Byleth so the character looks better than he is.


Hydreigonfan01 where can I watch the VODs for Dawn 3?

 

[Nekoo]

Man I hope Komo makes Sora work and goes to the states and upsets people.

Man, Komo dropping the game, coming back with Sora and starting to do good again just like in Smash 4 makes my heart flies with butterflies,
His Cloud was so good, even his Sonic was so cleaaaan in S4

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for WINNER! #7

1. HIKARU
2. Zackray
3. Eim
4. Ly
5. Paseriman
5. Umeki
7. Suinoko
7. Akakikusu
9. kept
9. shky
9. Noi
9. takera

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A DK in the #1 position? What?

 

[Idon]

A DK in the #1 position? What?

Gonna make a wild guess here and assume Roy carried that gorilla on his back.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

A DK in the #1 position? What?

As a secondary. HIKARU went mostly Roy and won GFs with Roy. Roy won the tournament.

 

[NairWizard]

HIKARU used DK vs. Ly's Byleth. Also, Zackray went all Sheik in Grand Finals. Seemed more like he was practicing setups than actually playing the game at some points, so I wouldn't be surprised if Zackray considered this a level-up event for his Sheik.

It seems that a few Japanese players are trying out Byleth, which will hopefully give us more good data on the character.

One thing to be aware of is that Leo and sparg0 aren't solo'ing their mains. When Leo runs into a bad Byleth matchup, like Pikachu, Sonic, Min Min, and now Aegis, he'll consider a swap. sparg0 will swap to Cloud for many zoners so we don't get to see Aegis vs. zoners like Samus and Pacman. Thankfully, Cosmos shows us that side of Aegis' matchups, but we don't get similar top-level data for Byleth.

In the case of other high/top tiers, like Pikachu and ZSS and ROB, we see their mains fighting some really bad matchups. We've seen ZSS vs. spacies and Roy a dozen times now, and ESAM vs. Maister frequently involves at least a couple of Pikachu games.

Or, the most prominent example near Leo's skill level: how many times has Tweek rammed his face hard into a bad zoner matchup for Diddy (Pacman, Olimar, etc) without switching to Wolf?

Something to keep in mind that's influencing our opinions of both Byleth and Aegis (but more so Byleth).

 

[Diddy Kong]

I nearly got excited for a DK scoring that high, but we all could've known it was Roy who indeed carried the day. Byleth and Diddy getting more exposure than by just MKLeo and Tweek is also a good thing, but then again, Japan plays all the characters. It's a testimony however that Byleth is actually good. Sheik getting these sorts of results also makes me reconsider my opinion about the character.. I thought it was mostly just VoiD who got the results for her.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Dabuz's tier list

pic.twitter.com/pRFcuTGsRl

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) December 29, 2021

 

[Rizen]

Dabuz's tier list

pic.twitter.com/pRFcuTGsRl

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) December 29, 2021

I could nitpick a few things (bump Jigglypuff up) but mostly agree with this and like how he labeled it. Young Link does feel like a great character but outclassed and with too many bad MUs. A while ago I said top tier and high tier were blending together but I take that back. There's a distinct power gap between the top and high tiers even after the nerfs.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So now everyone thinks R.O.B is a top 5 character now? Before Zomba's performance at SWT many people were saying he was stagnating due to lack of top 8 appearances and such.

Like Pikachu he was a base roster character that the privilege of not getting even a slap on the wrist thoughout the entire patch history despite being a target for complaints. Unlike Pikachu R.O.B always had pretty consistent resutls to possibly justify even slight nerfs

 

[NairWizard]

Dabuz is a super studied and reasonable top player. His opinions are always worth listening to and understanding.

However, I tuned in to the stream where he made this list, and he said "you can only play Steve properly until you're 21. When your brain fully develops, it's impossible to keep playing Steve." Interesting and funny interpretation of Steve's playstyle.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Glad to see my predictions from day 2 Sephiroth were correct about Sephiroth: he got worse offline and has settled in just behind his protagonist viability-wise, despite this thread disagreeing with me.

Joker is still a great character.

No opinion on blockhead or Dabuzs opinion on its playerbase.

Lastly, with his being merely solid in just about every relevant category save OoS, Sora is DLC Pit.

... considering his massive fanbase and how Smash 4 ended, this is probably a good thing for everyone involved.

 

[Arthur97]

So now everyone thinks R.O.B is a top 5 character now? Before Zomba's performance at SWT many people were saying he was stagnating due to lack of top 8 appearances and such.

Like Pikachu he was a base roster character that the privilege of not getting even a slap on the wrist thoughout the entire patch history despite being a target for complaints. Unlike Pikachu R.O.B always had pretty consistent resutls to possibly justify even slight nerfs

One thing that may have been holding perception of R.O.B. back was the inability to do well at the top level, but this has broken that barrier showing that the robot can indeed do well at the top level. It's only one right now, but given his popularity, others may follow. Regardless, R.O.B. has proven himself a potent threat not to be taken lightly regardless of size.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Whenever I see Steve being top tier in a new tier list, I just get confused.

He's good, but he's not that good. Upper High tier I'd say. There's a good reason no top players play him seriously and it's just high level players. He loses quite a few matchups against top/high tiers, particularly sword characters such as , , , / , , and , in addition to losing to non-swordies such as , and . Considering how common sword characters are rn, that's not good. He's got some similar weaknesses to G&W, but doesn't have the great OOS options G&W possesses. His damage capability and punish game is high, but he's also got awful mobility. Look at how many top players just don't know the matchup, Tweek did an awful job at the matchup when he fought DDog, and I think that's what responsible for most of the characters big upsets, people not knowing the matchup. Yonni is also on a downwards trend, he went from 9th at Riptide, to then getting 17th at Glitch 8.5, 33rd at Low Tide City, 25th at Smash Con Fall Fest and 49th at Mainstage.

I also don't buy the "people who are not children are not good with Steve" statement from Dabuz, unless it's for a joke.

Edit: Here's Sisqui's tier list

Tier List para acabar el año pic.twitter.com/1quXd8IrcZ

— Sisqui (@TheSisqui) December 29, 2021

 

[The_Bookworm]

Seems to me that we now have a common trend on who the elite characters are.
A lot of the recent tier lists put as the best, with also being commonly placed up there.

That seems fairly accurate to me on who the best are right now, as I do personally put these characters up there.

Oh yeah, I don't know why top players are slapping into top tier, but I expect that to not last very long doing into 2022 unless the top Steve players makes some magic happen.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Seems to me that we now have a common trend on who the elite characters are.
A lot of the recent tier lists put as the best, with also being commonly placed up there.

That seems fairly accurate to me on who the best are right now, as I do personally put these characters up there.

That would also be my list in some order, but adding on and . Before anyone asks, no I don't consider Pikachu top 5, but I do consider the rat top 10.

 

[SwagGuy99]

My new smash “hot takes”
-Steve is MADLY overrated expect when he has diamond.
-Pythra is honestly fine imo, just people need to learn the mu a bit more
-Pika still not top 5 for me.
-Luigi low key is top 10
-Bayo is high tier
-I think joker is still the best champ in the game

— TSUKA (@Elegant_Matt) December 29, 2021

I think sora is a really soild high tier, maybe bottom of top. He just gets pressured kinda easily and he doesn’t really have any way to deal with it well. Other than that he’s really good still

— TSUKA (@Elegant_Matt) December 29, 2021

 

[blackghost]

not buying ROB as a top tier. it could be me as a bayo main but that character has so many random characters in mid and low tier that go even or beat him.
i also am gonna need to see ROBs place more at mid majors and regionals in top 8. zomba could just be an excpetional player.

lol bayo is not a high tier. shes a knowledge check. when you list off high tiers and imply bayo is in the same level as palutena, wolf, fox, diddy, and others it just doesnt hold up.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

lol bayo is not a high tier. shes a knowledge check. when you list off high tiers and imply bayo is in the same level as palutena, wolf, fox, diddy, and others it just doesnt hold up.

I don't think Dabuz put Bayo on the level of any of those characters. Those are top tiers, not high tiers.
On the topic of ROB

working on a 2022 Ultimate Wrapped with the local map data, here's a preview: characters presented by total wins and player base size. ROB had the most wins and a huge player base; Joker's win total was underwhelming despite similar; Peach had by far the most wins per player pic.twitter.com/rCpFSzQIRJ

— Jackie Peanuts (@jackie_peanuts) December 29, 2021

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm a little surprised he put Rosalina so low... He seemed to be doing really well with her in SWT, though he ultimately lost... But I think it was less the character and more his decisions during the matches. She seems like a strong contender for high tier. Not top tier but certainly no pushover.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

This is a kinda hot take but in the Ultimate meta almost kinda reminds meta reminds me a lot of at the end of Smash 4's meta. Hear me out they of course are not similar in gameplay or character archetype but how they fill the same niche

Like Smash 4 ZSS R.O.B has some flaws and disadvantages a lot of other top-tiers do not that indeed give them iffy matchups vs fellow top tiers and some lower on the tier-chain But on the other side they have enough exploitative jank and overtuned tools to keep them strong and relevant even with more well-rounded top-tiers in their respective games


Also both of then can delete stocks at disgustingly low percents off one good read or punish. So they have among of the best comeback potential of the cast. also adds to the psycological/fear factor on now even the make season pros face them.

 

[blackghost]

I don't think Dabuz put Bayo on the level of any of those characters. Those are top tiers, not high tiers.
On the topic of ROB

working on a 2022 Ultimate Wrapped with the local map data, here's a preview: characters presented by total wins and player base size. ROB had the most wins and a huge player base; Joker's win total was underwhelming despite similar; Peach had by far the most wins per player pic.twitter.com/rCpFSzQIRJ

— Jackie Peanuts (@jackie_peanuts) December 29, 2021

it wasnt dabuz that said that she was. elegant said that. and given how frequently people shift top and high tier definitions the fringe chaarcter placements are hard for me to keep up with.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

with people arguing ROBs top tier status, I feel I should give my two Cents. I feel that while he has a tough time exiting disadvantage, he has an oppressive enough neutral and rewarding enough advantage state to balance it out. He has powerful zoning tools, a zero to death, and quite possibly the best down tilt in the game. I also think I should mention that he is difficult to edgeguard. I just think that his disadvantage, while bad, doesn’t hold him back too much.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Cloudy's tier list.

Tier list, everything is ordered except mid tier and low tier pic.twitter.com/k9mK722u4a

— Cloudy (@Cloudyos_) December 30, 2021

 

[StrangeKitten]

Dang, SkyJay and MysterySol have people putting Incin even higher than I'd put him! I told y'all he wasn't as bad as everyone was saying, lol.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Good post.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Rizen]

Good post.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is a terrible post. First of all, pre-nerf was a top 5 character with top tier results. He deserved the nerfs. Wario might not have much range but he has amazing air mobility (2nd in air accelloration and 8th in air speed) and low cool down moves that let him vortex characters, stay on them and true combo into waft. He was one of the better characters at dealing with camping due to his small stature, great mobility and the fact that he was always brewing another waft. I wouldn't take Wario to Kalos and I play YL. He had a great neutral, advantage and disadvantage state with bike to recover. He didn't need fast smashes or jab when f5 Dtilt combos into DA and Utilt combos into Waft for kills. All his aerials are 4-9 frames; he's not a slow character.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yesh that whole article reeks of salt levels to where think I got kidney stones from reading it
The Pikachu comparisons were especially hillarious me because while Pikachu also got his fair share of complaints but the difference is Pika never got close to the resutls if pre-nerfed Wario

Heck Wario even after the nerfs still has just as of not more consistent results than pikachu now

 

[NairWizard]

Imagine actually believing that the devs buff and nerf characters based on player complaints.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Imagine actually believing that the devs buff and nerf characters based on player complaints.

That was how got nerfed 3 times, the third one many people thought was terribly necessary

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

All that to say and yet still a small playerbase for the character, proving the point of the post. Funnily, it's the player's not playing Wario where the salt leaks from.

 

[Eremurus]

That was how got nerfed 3 times, the third one many people thought was terribly necessary

Okay, they really meant players outside of Japan.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, it can happen it seems, Min Min, K. Rool, and Smash 4 Mac for example, but that hardly seems to be the only or even main factor for a lot of them. Like how they barely touched the Aegis sisters or Pikachu.