Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

While he doesn't have a huge presence in any of the regional scenes, he does have one major representative in each main region currently:

* ChocoTaco's the main American player (hailing from Florida). Started out during the Wii U days, was mostly a regional player but did make some noise recently by placing 17th in the DQ-heavy-but-still-major CEO 2021, going 6-2 in sets en route. He defeated notable DK main ChunkyKong and Chrom main Gidy before falling to Jake, one of the best Steve mains.


* Nitox is his main representative in France / EU. A relative newcomer to the scene, he has seen some success at the tournaments he has attended. Most notably Temple: Hermes Edition, where he placed 13th with a 7-2 set count (including 3 straight LB wins) - the highest a Lucas player has gotten at a supermajor. And the competition was steep in that tournament too, with quite a few top-level EU, American and Japanese players in attendance. In particular, Nitox's set vs. American Bowser main LeoN is worth noting since it was rather close and LeoN placed 4th that event:

* Rinkururu is probably the JP main with the most going for him currently. Uses him and , he has been mainly regional but did get 25th at Kagaribi 4 with a 4-2 set count - it was a national where most of Japan's absolute best participated. He did pull off several upsets in that run: vs. Ken main Takera, then vs. Pit main Tet and then vs. Pichu main Nietono in losers (here's his set vs. Tet).

Several other players are of note here, such as Mekos and 8Mitsuki. However, they seem to be inactive at the moment.

The issue with Lucas' results, especially in higher levels of play, is that they are extremely sparse and happens at very inconsistent times. Lucas has this distinction moreso than most other characters in the game. Even characters often considered not too great (K. Rool, Puff, Belmonts, Incineroar, heck even Little Mac), has been showing up more often and make more splashes at higher levels of play.


The biggest issue with , and I covered this comprehensively in a post I made in the past, is that his moveset lacks any cohesion. It is flaw Lucas as a character has suffered from since his Brawl iteration.

The main reason why was so successful in comparison to his other two iterations, despite having by far the weakest normals of the three, is that the character doesn't really rely on his moveset too much to function. He has a gameplan revolving around his strong grab game and edgeguarding, and his normals only serves as the back-up glue that holds it all together.

Moving to Ultimate, they took away his strong grab game (+ removing footstools and nerfing zair zoning), while not fixing anything revolving around his design. His biggest buffs is ironically enough to his edgeguarding, thanks to the buffs to PK Freeze, down air, and down smash. The big issue with that is that Lucas doesn't need any of those buffs, as edgeguarding is already something he excels in, and is arguably the only thing he excels in Ultimate. Other things he does decently well in, other characters does much better in spades.

The end result is that while Lucas is not explicitly bad at all, he suffers from the pre-patch Pit problem where he is simply too mediocre to be worth considering using. The only difference is that Pit himself (+ a lot of other lower tiered characters) received significant buffs from patches, while Lucas' own buffs from patches are fairly minor (+ he received said buffs very early in Ultimate's patch cycle, so he kinda got left in the dust).

better disjoints, better frame data

That's... straight up not true.

Well... mostly not true. Most of his buttons are slightly faster than Ness', but it happens mainly on the non-disjointed buttons, buttons that suffer from terrible range. Ness' non-disjointed buttons also suffer from poor range, but.....

Lucas' disjoints are significantly slower than Ness'. This can be best seen with their aerials (with the exception of down air, but you get the point). Most of Lucas' disjointed buttons also suffer from very unfavorable sourspots. They are very unrewarding (including being unsafe on-hit at low percents) and require Lucas to additionally space out these moves. The sourspot issue wasn't very prominent in Brawl, since the sourspots deal much more damage and have more range (which increased the range of the moves as a whole + fair sweetspot out-prioritized the sourspot), but that has been heavily nerfed in SSB4 with little compensations in Ultimate.

The main overall thing that has allowed Ness to be an overall more successful character in all three games (except in Brawl where they are pretty much equal), outside of receiving straight-up buffs in each transition instead of a mixed bag for Lucas, is that Ness' moveset is actually very cohesive with his overall gameplan, and he has something for every situation, including situations Lucas himself is good at (i.e. edgeguarding).


But overall, both of these characters don't really play similar at all despite their similarities, which is a trap a lot of players in SSB4 kinda fell into.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

New kill confirm found for Byleth. Down throw into back air.

 

[BlueRando]

The issue with Lucas' results, especially in higher levels of play, is that they are extremely sparse and happens at very inconsistent times. Lucas has this distinction moreso than most other characters in the game. Even characters often considered not too great (K. Rool, Puff, Belmonts, Incineroar, heck even Little Mac), has been showing up more often and make more splashes at higher levels of play.


The biggest issue with , and I covered this comprehensively in a post I made in the past, is that his moveset lacks any cohesion. It is flaw Lucas as a character has suffered from since his Brawl iteration.

The main reason why was so successful in comparison to his other two iterations, despite having by far the weakest normals of the three, is that the character doesn't really rely on his moveset too much to function. He has a gameplan revolving around his strong grab game and edgeguarding, and his normals only serves as the back-up glue that holds it all together.

Moving to Ultimate, they took away his strong grab game (+ removing footstools and nerfing zair zoning), while not fixing anything revolving around his design. His biggest buffs is ironically enough to his edgeguarding, thanks to the buffs to PK Freeze, down air, and down smash. The big issue with that is that Lucas doesn't need any of those buffs, as edgeguarding is already something he excels in, and is arguably the only thing he excels in Ultimate. Other things he does decently well in, other characters does much better in spades.

The end result is that while Lucas is not explicitly bad at all, he suffers from the pre-patch Pit problem where he is simply too mediocre to be worth considering using. The only difference is that Pit himself (+ a lot of other lower tiered characters) received significant buffs from patches, while Lucas' own buffs from patches are fairly minor (+ he received said buffs very early in Ultimate's patch cycle, so he kinda got left in the dust).



That's... straight up not true.

Well... mostly not true. Most of his buttons are slightly faster than Ness', but it happens mainly on the non-disjointed buttons, buttons that suffer from terrible range. Ness' non-disjointed buttons also suffer from poor range, but.....

Lucas' disjoints are significantly slower than Ness'. This can be best seen with their aerials (with the exception of down air, but you get the point). Most of Lucas' disjointed buttons also suffer from very unfavorable sourspots. They are very unrewarding (including being unsafe on-hit at low percents) and require Lucas to additionally space out these moves. The sourspot issue wasn't very prominent in Brawl, since the sourspots deal much more damage and have more range (which increased the range of the moves as a whole + fair sweetspot out-prioritized the sourspot), but that has been heavily nerfed in SSB4 with little compensations in Ultimate.

The main overall thing that has allowed Ness to be an overall more successful character in all three games (except in Brawl where they are pretty much equal), outside of receiving straight-up buffs in each transition instead of a mixed bag for Lucas, is that Ness' moveset is actually very cohesive with his overall gameplan, and he has something for every situation, including situations Lucas himself is good at (i.e. edgeguarding).


But overall, both of these characters don't really play similar at all despite their similarities, which is a trap a lot of players in SSB4 kinda fell into.

I don't think that the comparison between and is totally accurate.

's problem is not that his toolkit is too mediocre, in fact, many of his moves are actually really rewarding and strong for what they do (Ftilt, for example, especially after the buffs, is a contender for best Ftilt in the game thanks to its strength, speed, range and safety), but rather, his problem is that almost all of his moves have pretty specific uses and they are not very rewarding when the player tries to use them in different situations. This means that Lucas is in this weird situation where he is an hybrid/jack-of-all-trades/versatile type of character with many tools that are not that versatile and require precision.

On top of that, if you count the fact that many of his techniques are quite execution-based (especially DJCZ), you'll realize that Lucas can be a pretty hard character to play and to succeed with, which is not exactly a good trait in a competitive meta (and is a problem that doesn't have).

Other than that, Lucas also has other two major problems: a very mediocre disadvantage state, and sometimes (because of his attributes and the properties of his moves) can struggle to push the advantage state.

On one hand, I love how in-character Lucas's design philosophy is: a seemingly mediocre character that can show his explosiveness and true potential only to those who are willing to fully explore him. But on the other hand I know that, as long as stronger and easier characters exist, he will always struggle to find the competitive spotlight, especially if you consider that he comes from an obscure (yet beautiful) game that not many people have played.

If anything, despite his flaws, I personally do really think that is a solid fighter that can hold his own against several meta characters (The Pika MU, for example, is considered even by the Pika players themselves), maybe with the help of a secondary, and he's definitely a bit underrated.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Fatality makes a video on how he beat ESAM's

Couple of things to note here:

1. He doesn't think the Falcon matchup against Pikachu is that bad, and he thinks that while the character is amazing and beats a lot of relevant matchups (He's one of the people who thinks Pikachu is the best), people complain about the character way too hard and there is a lot of counterplay to the character.
2. Fatality talks about how he saves his jumps really well when getting edgeguarded and how he gets hit on purpose by stuff that wouldn't kill him and forces Pikachu to go for an option that wouldn't kill him at extremely early-percents instead of getting Lightning Loop'd/zero-to-death.

 

[Nobie]

I was thinking about the buffs and nerfs over the course of Ultimate, and the tendency for them to enhance strengths rather than patch up weaknesses.

I feel that while balance was definitely a factor, part of it has to do with making the characters do what they're "supposed" to do.

Why did Ryu get stronger fireballs? Probably because they're actually core to his identity in Street Fighter, and they wanted to have this come across in Ultimate. The reason Ken didn't get that much is because he's the Shoryuken Guy, and they basically nailed that from Day One. If you ever watch an old Super Turbo tournament match, you'll get a quick understanding of how many Hadokens Ryu is supposed to be chucking:

In contrast, why did Mega Man get his early Leaf Shield combo nerfed? Because it was easy massive damage that trivialized his pellet game into basically a setup for Leaf Shield. It defeated the purpose of both moves in the process.

I think another factor is that the developers likely didn't want matchups to flip through buffs and nerfs, merely get closer, even if players would often prefer the former.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Tsumusuto's Doc matchup chart (first one he's made since Doc got buffed last patch)

There was a problem fetching the tweet

From what I can tell, the tiers here are

Horrible, disadvantage, slight disadvantage, proper even, easy even, slight advantage, advantage, characters he doesn't know

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tsumusuto's Doc matchup chart (first one he's made since Doc got buffed last patch)

There was a problem fetching the tweet

From what I can tell, the tiers here are

Horrible, disadvantage, slight disadvantage, proper even, easy even, slight advantage, advantage, characters he doesn't know

This matchup chart is... bizarre. Apparently 80% of Doc's matchups are even? I don't think I have seen any matchup chart before where the character is even with almost the entire cast.

One minor note: is looks a bit weird that he put the Aegis and Mythra as "not sure", but Pyra is placed in a proper tier. I guess he is only confident on how to fight Pyra and only Pyra?

 

[Idon]

There is no way in this universe that Doc goes even with this many top tiers.

 

[SKX31]

Tsumusuto's Doc matchup chart (first one he's made since Doc got buffed last patch)

There was a problem fetching the tweet

From what I can tell, the tiers here are

Horrible, disadvantage, slight disadvantage, proper even, easy even, slight advantage, advantage, characters he doesn't know

I really would like to see Tsumusuto travel and compete in American / EU tournaments.

Partly because of Diddy alone. I mean, he's almost completely invisible in Japan's meta while in the States there's suddenly Tweek, Aaron, Rivers etc. Edit: Scratch that, thanks Hydreigonfan01 . Fox is another one: it'd be extremely interesting to see how he'd deal with Light's when he might be used to Paseriman's.

This matchup chart is... bizarre. Apparently 80% of Doc's matchups are even? I don't think I have seen any matchup chart before where the character is even with almost the entire cast.

One minor note: is looks a bit weird that he put the Aegis and Mythra as "not sure", but Pyra is placed in a proper tier. I guess he is only confident on how to fight Pyra and only Pyra?

Might be, honestly. It's worth noting that Aegis have not really become as prevalent in Japan / EU the way they have in NA - so he's probably not going to have as much MU experience. For Japan specifically you have Shuton using them as his secondary and then... the highest I can find is Lunamado using solo Pyra (wuh?) as a secondary (tertiary?) to finish 7th / 17th at Sumabato 18 / 19 (you could also count Munekin's 17th at Kagaribi 5, but that's again secondary), and the highest main placing is 25th (Puneuma) at Sumabato 21. The Sumabatos are the tournaments Tsumosuto regularily attends.

I'm not sure how to read those results, especially since Japan is perhaps the most volatile out of NA / JP / EU.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I really would like to see Tsumusuto travel and compete in American / EU tournaments.

Partly because of Diddy alone. I mean, he's almost completely invisible in Japan's meta while in the States there's suddenly Tweek, Aaron, Rivers etc. Fox is another one: it'd be extremely interesting to see how he'd deal with Light's when he might be used to Paseriman's.

Diddy is popular in Japan's meta. There's Etsuji, Huto, Chicken and Paseriman's secondary Diddy.

 

[NairWizard]

If you've heard Tweek on the subject lately (his latest YT vid or a stream or even offline), he finds that the Pyra/Mythra matchup for Diddy is actually terrible, and he says that the biggest reason is that you can't edgeguard them with Diddy's hitboxes. Further, he seems to think that edgeguarding was definitely a weakness for the character in the early days, but the hurtbox shifting and good Foresight usage means that their recovery is actually probably above average now (way better than S4 Cloud's by comparison), despite lack of horizontal distance.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

If you've heard Tweek on the subject lately (his latest YT vid or a stream or even offline), he finds that the Pyra/Mythra matchup for Diddy is actually terrible, and he says that the biggest reason is that you can't edgeguard them with Diddy's hitboxes. Further, he seems to think that edgeguarding was definitely a weakness for the character in the early days, but the hurtbox shifting and good Foresight usage means that their recovery is actually probably above average now (way better than S4 Cloud's by comparison), despite lack of horizontal distance.

Well, I still feel that her recovery is still pretty bad, def not above average. Most projectile characters can edgeguard her for free, long lasting hit boxes can really screw her over, and if she is forced to use photon edge she can be hit pretty easily some practice. I can say that foresight may be a double edged sword. Getting foresight can actually cause you to sink like a rock and SD. I think the trickiest thing of edgeguarding them is Up-b. They have pretty considerable disjoints so you generally have to hit them before the move starts instead of challenging them. Only really Min-min or Sephiroth can challenge those moves.

But Diddy does struggle against Aegis super hard, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Does Peanut not intercept recoveries well? As an at-times Banjo & Kazooie player, Egg Firing can intercept recoveries. You have to get into the right place for the egg to meet the ledge, and keep your tempo just slow enough that you don't go into Breegull Blaster, but I've scored a fair amount of KOs that way. With Pyra & Mythra having an exploitable recovery, would there be no way for Diddy's Peanut to do the same?

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Does Peanut not intercept recoveries well? As an at-times Banjo & Kazooie player, Egg Firing can intercept recoveries at times. You have to get into the right place for the egg to meet the ledge, and keep your tempo just slow enough that you don't go into Breegull Blaster, but I've scored a fair amount of KOs that way. With Pyra & Mythra having an exploitable recovery, would there be no way for Diddy's Peanut to do the same?

Im pretty sure its possible, just very difficult.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here is the main thing about the Aegis' recoveries that not many people have caught on, but Sparg0 is.

If you watch Sparg0 recovering with the Aegis, he sometimes repeatedly swap between the two to keep Mythra's air momentum, then recover with Pyra's up B. Why does he do that? Is it because Pyra has higher weight?

It is because Mythra up B can be a bit problematic for recovery since at certain ranges, it has trouble snapping to the ledge. Not many players have yet taken advantage of this, since the up B animation makes her very vulnerable to attacks from anywhere that isn't below her. Sparg0 seems to be ahead of the curve, cause he oftentimes use Pyra up B to recover which snaps to the ledge more consistently overall.

That being said, Pyra up B doesn't snap to the ledge immediately either, so this is another thing people could take advantage of more often. It is not Chrom or Ike up B, where you risk the spike immediately killing you if you mess up. Pyra's up B spike is Mac down air levels of weak. The only real risk is the Pyra player immediately following up with a down air reversal, but that is still a better scenario than risk immediately dying at 0%.

 

[NairWizard]

Correction: I meant Swap, not Foresight, above.

Pyra has huge magnet hands, the character's hurtbox is deceptively small during most/all animations, and swapping back and forth gives you invulnerability frames. You need big lingering hitboxes to consistently gimp a perceptive Pyra, like a Byleth n-air. And even then, there are so many times in Leo vs. sparg0 where you watch Leo just let sparg0 recover for free because there's not enough space to get a n-air safely.

Their recovery really doesn't seem bad to me. I mean, I get more consistently 2-framed with Palutena's teleport recovery than I get gimped with Pyra/Mythra, and no one is calling Palutena's recovery bad.

 

[Rizen]

Does Peanut not intercept recoveries well? As an at-times Banjo & Kazooie player, Egg Firing can intercept recoveries. You have to get into the right place for the egg to meet the ledge, and keep your tempo just slow enough that you don't go into Breegull Blaster, but I've scored a fair amount of KOs that way. With Pyra & Mythra having an exploitable recovery, would there be no way for Diddy's Peanut to do the same?

Diddy's peanuts are one of the worst projectiles in the game (fortunately for him banana is one of the best). They're weak and lose to everything. Technically they might be able to intercept terrible recoveries if the opponent has burned their double jump but Diddy has much better options.

 

[Sucumbio]

Does Peanut not intercept recoveries well? As an at-times Banjo & Kazooie player, Egg Firing can intercept recoveries. You have to get into the right place for the egg to meet the ledge, and keep your tempo just slow enough that you don't go into Breegull Blaster, but I've scored a fair amount of KOs that way. With Pyra & Mythra having an exploitable recovery, would there be no way for Diddy's Peanut to do the same?

It's odd but his pop gun is best used as a movement option it seems at least according to the videos I've seen (I don't use him). The peanut is used as a throw in sets I've watched which draws a defense but not as heavy as say warios bike... But for gimping recoveries I think it it's fairly situational and hasn't been explored heavily because as was pointed out the best players always go for the nuclear option and pop gun is a mosquito. Great mix up tool tho.






Edit

But doc tho.... Haha he's a contender right? (not in the US)....

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Correction: I meant Swap, not Foresight, above.

Pyra has huge magnet hands, the character's hurtbox is deceptively small during most/all animations, and swapping back and forth gives you invulnerability frames. You need big lingering hitboxes to consistently gimp a perceptive Pyra, like a Byleth n-air. And even then, there are so many times in Leo vs. sparg0 where you watch Leo just let sparg0 recover for free because there's not enough space to get a n-air safely.

Their recovery really doesn't seem bad to me. I mean, I get more consistently 2-framed with Palutena's teleport recovery than I get gimped with Pyra/Mythra, and no one is calling Palutena's recovery bad.

I agree with you, Pyra/Mythra's recovery is fine. It's not fantastic, but Mythra has great air speed similarly to and , decent jump height, swap causes great mixups while being invulnerable, and if Pyra's up-B goes above the ledge it has the fire pillar hitbox that kills at 120%, making potentially attempting to attack Pyra risky if you're at high percent unless you have a counter. I see Sparg0 sometimes recovering high and using Prominence Revolt to grab hold onto the ledge too.

I'd argue it's a lot less exploitable then 's recovery with Arsene, and might be just as good as 's recovery without Arsene.

 

[B_Burg]

I was thinking about the buffs and nerfs over the course of Ultimate, and the tendency for them to enhance strengths rather than patch up weaknesses.

I feel that while balance was definitely a factor, part of it has to do with making the characters do what they're "supposed" to do.

Why did Ryu get stronger fireballs? Probably because they're actually core to his identity in Street Fighter, and they wanted to have this come across in Ultimate. The reason Ken didn't get that much is because he's the Shoryuken Guy, and they basically nailed that from Day One. If you ever watch an old Super Turbo tournament match, you'll get a quick understanding of how many Hadokens Ryu is supposed to be chucking:

In contrast, why did Mega Man get his early Leaf Shield combo nerfed? Because it was easy massive damage that trivialized his pellet game into basically a setup for Leaf Shield. It defeated the purpose of both moves in the process.

I think another factor is that the developers likely didn't want matchups to flip through buffs and nerfs, merely get closer, even if players would often prefer the former.

That's an interesting idea, but I feel like Mega Man isn't the best example for that. At least when viewed as a whole. His pellet game was still important when pellet cancelling was in the game, largely because pellets into leaf shield, or any of his other specials, wasn't as effective or consistent against airborn opponents. I also feel as though labeling pellets into leaf shield as massive damage is overselling it a bit, especially compared to the damage a number of characters can do in the game even now, even with relative ease. Not to say I was in favor of pellet cancelling staying in the game.

Thinking about it now though, Mega Man's situation might be an outlier to the scenario you've presented because a number of his nerfs came from fixing things that seem like they weren't intended in any sense (pellet cancelling or item dropping during hitstun - Similar to how Mac had that jab buff that didn't really change what the character was "supposed" to do, and arguably complimented it, but it was removed because it simply wasn't intended) or were just universal changes to the game. The main example being the nerf on projectiles against shields, which nerfed more of Megaman's moves than any other character simply by virtue of him having more projectiles in his moveset.

That said, when they finally got around to buffing him, he only ever had one projectile buff the entire game, and that was crash bomber in this last patch. I will say that doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong, I just don't know what the buffs and nerfs are supposed to reflect on what Mega Man is "supposed" to do. Admittedly that may just be because I have possibly misunderstand what Mega Man is supposed to do from the beginning.

The issue is moreso that they basically ignored Megaman after all the nerfs they hit him with, which resulted in him being one of the biggest characters hit by this games version of "power creep." I know that's not exactly the right term for the situation, but it's basically to say that I think Mega Man ended up having more of those mathcup flips through buffs and nerfs than most characters because of the way he was nerfed and then essentially left behind.

Again, all that isn't to say your thought process isn't necessarily right, I just don't know that Mega Man is a very good example of it.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Eastern Powerhouse Invitational 2.

1. ProtoBanham
2. Tea
3. KEN
4. Jagaimo
5. Nietono
5. Kome
7. Repo
7. Akakikusu
9. Kameme
9. Takera
9. Shuton
9. Kishiru

Spoiler: Eliminated in Pools

13. Paseriman
13. Atelier
13. Kirihara
13. Etsuji
17. Zackray
17. Lea
17. Raito
17. HIKARU
17. Abadango
17. shky
17. Manzoku
17. Gackt
25. Noi
25. chicken
25. Tsu
25. Shogun
25. kept
25. Eim
25. Choco
25. Huto

 

[NotLiquid]

Another solid post-patch performance by Proto. I was surprised that he mainly ran Min Min today for what was a deadlier bracket. Lucina was on deck for his set against Shuton and also to get some momentum back after getting reset in Grand Finals. But for the rest of the final day he ran all Min Min; clean 3-0 in his rematch against Jagaimo despite their group stage battle the other day having him swap, powered out against Tea in Winners Finals with Min Min, then brought her back to finish the job in the final game of the reset.

Tea is still a monster, and Pac Man being a relative sleeper top 10 character becomes more evident by the day. Between his immaculate pressure, nutty disadvantage, great out-of-shield, ability to trap from multiple situations around the stage, and possibly the best grab in the game, there's very little to keep him locked down.

Great preamble for what was several of these players' last performance before SWT. The only qualified player for that who attended EPI and failed to get out of the group stage was Lea.

 

[Thinkaman]

CHOOSE YOUR OWN JOKE:

1. Suggest that ProtoBanham is stupid for not realizing yet that Min Min was "done dirty" and is "dead", "gutted", and "inconsistent" now. Chide his foolishness and express hope that he one day catches up to commentators in the west. Bonus points for mocking Nietono's Pichu too.
2. Innocently ask when Japan is getting patch 13.0.0.
3. Imply that Lucina was Proto's "real main" and he only used Min Min in games where he felt pity. Propose that she's basically the new Ganondorf.
4. With maximum faux outrage, demand that one more balance patch is absolutely necessary--to nerf Min Min more.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

CHOOSE YOUR OWN JOKE:

1. Suggest that ProtoBanham is stupid for not realizing yet that Min Min was "done dirty" and is "dead", "gutted", and "inconsistent" now. Chide his foolishness and express hope that he one day catches up to commentators in the west. Bonus points for mocking Nietono's Pichu too.
2. Innocently ask when Japan is getting patch 13.0.0.
3. Imply that Lucina was Proto's "real main" and he only used Min Min in games where he felt pity. Propose that she's basically the new Ganondorf.
4. With maximum faux outrage, demand that one more balance patch is absolutely necessary--to nerf Min Min more.

Min Min is still not top tier after the nerfs, he'll underperform at the Smash World Tour COPIUM.

 

[NairWizard]

Going from s4 to Ultimate Cloud lost permanent limit and most of his up-air and grab, plus his crazy initial dash relative to the cast, and he is still pushing high or top tier. Nothing will happen to Min Min’s viability because of a few n-air nerfs.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Yeah I still think Min Min is top tier even if she doesn't have as good close range options as other top tier zoners now. Probably at the bottom of it, but still seems to be a great character, especially when piloted by Proto, a phenomenal player who is looking to be the undisputed king of Japan and top 5 in the world.

My earlier comment was a bit of a joke.

 

[Cheryl~]

Can we talk about how Proto is the only player in the world that seems to be adept at edgeguarding Pac-Man? Like, look at his sets with Tea. His Lucina goes AGGRESSIVE offstage against that character, and that aggressive edgeguarding nailed him some relatively early stocks. Even with Min Min, who is more inclined to just attempt for 2-frames with Ramram on Pac's recovery, he would still go offstage with double F-Air at times because he knew that Tea would have to charge up Side-B, and used those frames before the Side-B activated to kill Tea. For a character that has a recovery lauded as "un-edgeguardable" by most of the community, honestly felt like Pac had more issues offstage than people think.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Keep It REAL: Birthday Card (Regional in Georgia)

1. DDee (Didn't lose a single game)
2. Sonido
3. Jahzz0
4. omega
5. Senn
5. Eleven
7. Peabnut
7. Player-1

 

[SwagGuy99]

Zackray's current tier list

Some of the criteria he used for ranking characters and the explanation for certain character placments is explained here.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Very strange list, not sure I'm a huge fan of it personally. This list feels reminiscent of tier lists I remember seeing from mid to late 2019 with several of Zackray's placements seeming very outdated given more recent results and developments in the meta of some characters.

 

[Idon]

Zackray's current tier list

Some of the criteria he used for ranking characters and the explanation for certain character placments is explained here.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Very strange list, not sure I'm a huge fan of it personally. This list feels reminiscent of tier lists I remember seeing from mid to late 2019 with several of Zackray's placements seeming very outdated given more recent results and developments in the meta of some characters.

Zackray's got to be playing on some secret patch that never came out because some of these placements are really bizarre.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Zackray's got to be playing on some secret patch that never came out because some of these placements are really bizarre.

Yea. I main some of these characters, and I feel his placings are weird.

First things first, Link is better than Hero. More consistent kill power, better edgeguarding, better frame data, better range. Hero only beats link in raw Strength and ground speed. But his strength is also hindered by MP, which is purely a detrimental thing. His boxing tools are also worse than Links. Link is just better…

I also find his options of the Pits weird as well. Generally I think Pittoo is better than Pit because his Side B kills early and his arrows are much better as conventional projectiles.

 

[Nekoo]

Yea. I main some of these characters, and I feel his placings are weird.

First things first, Link is better than Hero. More consistent kill power, better edgeguarding, better frame data, better range. Hero only beats link in raw Strength and ground speed. But his strength is also hindered by MP, which is purely a detrimental thing. His boxing tools are also worse than Links. Link is just better…

I also find his options of the Pits weird as well. Generally I think Pittoo is better than Pit because his Side B kills early and his arrows are much better as conventional projectiles.

Nah, the thing is, is that in others countries and continent, Hero's metagame is very poor, and people have a lack of understanding of his tool.

Then you look at Akakikusu or Tsu in Japan and they make this character look like a top tier any day of the week, versus any kind of Japanese top player without breaking a sweat.

 

[Rizen]

Nah, the thing is, is that in others countries and continent, Hero's metagame is very poor, and people have a lack of understanding of his tool.

Then you look at Akakikusu or Tsu in Japan and they make this character look like a top tier any day of the week, versus any kind of Japanese top player without breaking a sweat.

This. Also don't forget ^Nair from Mexico. Hero's meta revolves around frequent and optimized use of the menu.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Nah, the thing is, is that in others countries and continent, Hero's metagame is very poor, and people have a lack of understanding of his tool.

Then you look at Akakikusu or Tsu in Japan and they make this character look like a top tier any day of the week, versus any kind of Japanese top player without breaking a sweat.

I think it’s more so that those players are just built different. Hero is a generally very limited character, so Hero players need to squeeze use out of every move to compete with most high tiers and top tiers. Many of Akakikusu’s wins aren’t really due to Hero being a great character. They are from his absolutely amazing fundamentals.

This. Also don't forget ^Nair from Mexico. Hero's meta revolves around frequent and optimized use of the menu.

I agree with this very much. Menu is broken, so optimizing it is very important. I think it’s in contention with best down b in the game with Banana, remote bomb, and waft.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Nah, the thing is, is that in others countries and continent, Hero's metagame is very poor, and people have a lack of understanding of his tool.

Then you look at Akakikusu or Tsu in Japan and they make this character look like a top tier any day of the week, versus any kind of Japanese top player without breaking a sweat.

The main issue when looking at Hero results is that his meta is only really propelled by one player. Outside of Akakikusu, Hero's reps and results are among the bleakest in the entire game, especially at the high level play. The other player's of Hero only really does decently well at a regional level and even that is fairly sparse. Akakikusu possesses amazing fundamentals on an otherwise fairly inconsistent character.

Byleth possesses the same issue, except that while Akakikusu is placing high at Japanese events, MkLeo is outright winning majors.

Also, Tsu barely plays Hero anymore. For the last several months, it is 95% the Terry + Lucario show.

This. Also don't forget ^Nair from Mexico. Hero's meta revolves around frequent and optimized use of the menu.

Nair^'s Hero is more of a co-main/strong secondary, but otherwise his Ridley is the main show. When he does bring out the Hero, it does do some good damage tho.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why is Sheik even in S+ tier? Mario and Sonic are also quite low, Inkling is very high, I don't know why Pit of all characters is placed that high too, Ness is way too low, Mega Man and Link are a bit too low, and where is Wario ?

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

where is Wario ?

Top of A+ tier

 

[PK Gaming]

Get ready for a massive vitriol towards Steve/Steve players

I think the Smash community being histrionic as usual and Steve being poorly designed are not mutually exclusive btw

 

[NairWizard]

What's the point of looking at a tier list and saying "X is too low, Y is too high"? If tier lists had to reflect currently popular opinions and results with only minor deviations, they'd have very little value.

You should look at someone's tier list and try to get a better picture of how they might understand or think about the game, instead of dogging on them for what you believe to be misplacements.

 

[NotLiquid]

Get ready for a massive vitriol towards Steve/Steve players

I think the Smash community being histrionic as usual and Steve being poorly designed are not mutually exclusive btw

For context; DDog double eliminated Tweek at the Fusion #100 weekly, both of the times were 2-0 sets.

Tweek apparently pulled out Sephiroth in the Losers set.