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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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    584

Cheryl~

Smash Journeyman
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Disappointed by the Min Min changes. They chose to make an already polarized design even worse, without buffing any of the huge weak points the character already has. She genuinely has a bottom 5 disadvantage state now that her crappy tether has remained unchanged, and now her landing options are well, even worse than before haha. This would've been kind of fine if she retained her pressure which made her neutral so good, but they took that away too. A lot of Min Min players like Pink Fresh are saying that the character is basically boom or bust now. You play neutral PERFECTLY and do advantage state PERFECTLY, or you just lose. I don't mind a nerf forcing playerbases to learn to play the game better, but I do think these were a bit harsh.

Also, did they not list anything relating to the Sora freeze glitch, or am I blind? Either way, they'll probably just do a mini bugfixing patch just for that, so it doesn't really matter anymore.

ROB and Sonic being untouched will probably be the death of this game in a year or two.
 

Thinkaman

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ROB and Sonic being untouched will probably be the death of this game in a year or two.
I am the OG ROB fearmonger, and I think this is over the top. ROB's results have been decelerating, after a continued failure to break through to the summit. (Figuratively and literally) Time will tell, but it almost feels like a repeat of Lucina. (But with stronger, more dedicated mains giving it more staying power)


More patch fun:

I actually think Link might be the biggest winner. Jab 8f -> 7f seems merely nice until you realize how fully it makes nair -> jab work at lower percents, which previously was one frame off from true over an irritatingly wide range. But d-tilt (angle 80 -> 85) is now super scary--Link gets up-b (!!!) if they don't DI out, and it's a hard move to DI! That's a great reward for a 10f move that's only -11 on block and outranges most grabs. The u-smash buff is more than just the cherry on top too, as it's a super relevant kill option for Link.


I had a weird cognative dissonance when I read the patch notes for Ridley and his dash attack buff. I simultaneous thought "how unimportant" and "wait, didn't I specifically wish for a Ridley dash attack buff recently?" Well, turns out I did, and I finally figured it out why/where: Game 5 of SWT Regionals Cloudy vs. Nair. Nair landed a dash attack on Cloudy's second stock, it barely didn't kill, and I was remembering being uniquely annoyed by this. ("Ridley is a heavy! I can't believe his DASH ATTACK doesn't kill!") Cloudy lived, recovered, did 50% "extra credit" in what should have been even last stocks, and proceded to use that lead to win. If it was an even game instead, Nair might have won, and we would have had a Ridley qualify for the SWT champs.


Ice Climbers dash attack (11f -> 9f) lets them easily combo into dash attack out of landing aerials, each at different % ranges but pretty wide and overlapping. I'm not sure dash attack -> uair -> aerial advantage (more uair?) is actually better than a grab into their usual tomfoolery, but at the very least this simple flowchart is way better for ICs luddites like me who can't reliably do the fancy stuff.
 

blackghost

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Minmin plays as she should. She is playing arms in smash. Control neutral or the match will go poorly. She is at her core dhalsim.

The devs seem to agree with the group that Pikachu is more hyped than threat. Whether that actually holds true as we dive deeper into this game remains to be seen.
I can tell we are in true endgame of meta now because fringe midtiers are starting to be dropped and mains in the higher tiers focused on.

Not even really sure if the blazing end change matters too much.
 
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B_Burg

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May 1, 2019
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With this being the last balance patch I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent regarding :ultmegaman:. I'm kind of just venting some thoughts so don't take it too seriously. That said it's also rambly so I'll tuck it away behind a tag.

I have to say overall I'm pretty disappointed with how the balance team handled :ultmegaman:. I know that's kind of silly to bring up now after he finally got some buffs, but unfortunately I don't really see much coming from the buffs in this particular patch. Not that I'm complaining about them in particular, but there's also a reason nobody is really talking about them.

It's pretty widely known that the three characters who got kneecapped by nerfs the hardest early on were :ultmegaman:, :ultpichu: and :ultolimar:, with the former two being considered probably the two most nerfed characters in the game, at least within Smash ultimate itself. It's frustrating because there are characters who already were better and have been better for longer that have gotten off with much smaller nerfs and changes, some not even getting nerfed at all.

:ultpichu: later had some nerfs pulled back, as well as a few other little buffs, but :ultmegaman: was basically ignored after I think around 4.0 was the last patch that specifically changed him. Losing things like pellet cancelling and the ability to drop items during hitstun are nerfs I agree with because that's the sort of thing I wouldn't want to define the character. I'd be curious to see what he could have done with those abilities and if counterplay could have formed, but if they were gonna nip it in the bud, I'm fine with it. But then they went on to nerf all projectiles against shields, they nerfed leaf shield multiple times, and in the wake of all of the nerfs they never gave Megaman anything other than a buff so insignificant most people don't know about it and it basically only existed so that prior to this final patch, I couldn't literally say Megaman never got buffed.

Meanwhile so many characters were getting buffed around Megaman. Sometimes those buffs would even have a disproportionate effect on Megaman. For example :ultryu: and :ultken:. The tatsu buffs they got that made them invincible to projectiles. That effects more of Megaman's tools than any other character in the game simply because Megaman is the only character whose moveset is made up of more than 50% projectiles. To say nothing about DLC characters and things like bounce existing.

Meanwhile :ultmegaman: has 3 multi-hit moves that all too often fail to connect properly that the balance team never even attempted to address. Now the balance team has tried to address a few multi-hit moves and haven't always succeeded, but at least they made an effort to make the moves connect properly. If you'd like to see the moves I'm talking about I'd suggest looking into Maroof's Twitter. They have videos of Crash Bomb, Leaf Shield, and Spark Shock all failing to connect way more often than they should. That's not even to mention things like Top Spin, which drops characters before the final hit if they weren't grounded or near the ground when it connects, or the hitbox on Mega Upper sour spotting on characters who are too close because the hitbox for the sweet spot doesn't actually cover Megaman's hand.

With this last patch, if they weren't going to attempt to fix any of :ultmegaman: 's moves then they seemed to pick good moves to buff. Dash attack and down smash were probably his two worst moves, and seeing them buff them slightly is nice, but the buffs are so minor they don't really make the moves any better. Dash attack coming out faster isn't going to stop it from dropping characters. It's still probably the worst dash attack in the game. The hit box buff on down smash is going to help at ledges, but it's still too big of a commitment for not enough reward the vast majority of the time. The damage buff on Crash Bomber is nice, and probably the thing that will see the most use simply because unlike those other two moves, it's a move that was good enough to see regular use in a match.

I don't mean to complain about buffs mind you, but they don't really fix any of the issues the character had, and unlike other characters the issues have nothing to do with the type of character he is. It's just multi-hit moves failing to work properly. The buffs were given to some of the right moves, but they don't seem to change things enough to really matter at all.

That's why nobody is talking about them, and unfortunately, I don't see the changes doing anything at all to stem the decline of :ultmegaman:'s success and usage.

All that to say, I don't think it's really surprising that :ultmegaman: has seen nothing but a steady to sharp decline in both usage and results, with many of his mains switching or dropping him for other, better characters that either got substantial buffs, or came into the game stronger and never got nerfed to the same level.

I also don't think it's surprising that people are starting to consider him more of a mid-tier character as a result, for whatever that's worth to you.

He's just too much work in the way the meta has shaken out, and even one of the best things about him, the consistency of his gameplan, is thrown off by moves not working the way they are supposed to too often. Not something you want to have on a character that already has to put in a lot of work to keep pace with the cast.

Anyway, like I said, a lot of that is just venting. I know I shouldn't complain. There are other characters who are worse off and I still think :ultmegaman: is a great adaptation of the character. I just can't help but feel a little disappointed about how things ended up shaking out for him.

But that's enough negativity. I'll probably make another post in the future going over why I think he overall is a really well designed character that is super fun, and I'm still really happy he's in the game.
 

Cap'n Jack

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Still disappointed that :ultbanjokazooie: ‘S Wonderwing was never buffed. I mean I get it, that to the party crowd it is overpowered, much like:ultlittlemac:and:ultganondorf:, but also like those two, once you know how to play against it, it loses a lot of its luster.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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:ultpyra: / :ultmythra: nerfs don't seem to matter at all. The best Aegis players can still get the footstool out from the Side-B while Sparg0 + Shuton use it in ways opponents still would have difficulty dealing with it. Mythra's f-smash is only by a 5%-10% difference and with how good Mythra's damage racking capabilities are, it's still fairly easy to get an f-smash kill percent, especially considering it's super quick.

Still IMO top 2 alongside :ultjoker:.
 

Wunderwaft

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I remember Yonni talking a couple of months back about him discovering a Steve infinite but waiting till the patches were over to make it public. I figured he was joking or something back then, but uhh if he's actually serious then hoo boy.


EDIT: Looks like Steve mains weren't the only ones hiding infinites till the patches were over :smileye:


 
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Linkmain-maybe

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I am the OG ROB fearmonger, and I think this is over the top. ROB's results have been decelerating, after a continued failure to break through to the summit. (Figuratively and literally) Time will tell, but it almost feels like a repeat of Lucina. (But with stronger, more dedicated mains giving it more staying power)


More patch fun:

I actually think Link might be the biggest winner. Jab 8f -> 7f seems merely nice until you realize how fully it makes nair -> jab work at lower percents, which previously was one frame off from true over an irritatingly wide range. But d-tilt (angle 80 -> 85) is now super scary--Link gets up-b (!!!) if they don't DI out, and it's a hard move to DI! That's a great reward for a 10f move that's only -11 on block and outranges most grabs. The u-smash buff is more than just the cherry on top too, as it's a super relevant kill option for Link.


I had a weird cognative dissonance when I read the patch notes for Ridley and his dash attack buff. I simultaneous thought "how unimportant" and "wait, didn't I specifically wish for a Ridley dash attack buff recently?" Well, turns out I did, and I finally figured it out why/where: Game 5 of SWT Regionals Cloudy vs. Nair. Nair landed a dash attack on Cloudy's second stock, it barely didn't kill, and I was remembering being uniquely annoyed by this. ("Ridley is a heavy! I can't believe his DASH ATTACK doesn't kill!") Cloudy lived, recovered, did 50% "extra credit" in what should have been even last stocks, and proceded to use that lead to win. If it was an even game instead, Nair might have won, and we would have had a Ridley qualify for the SWT champs.


Ice Climbers dash attack (11f -> 9f) lets them easily combo into dash attack out of landing aerials, each at different % ranges but pretty wide and overlapping. I'm not sure dash attack -> uair -> aerial advantage (more uair?) is actually better than a grab into their usual tomfoolery, but at the very least this simple flowchart is way better for ICs luddites like me who can't reliably do the fancy stuff.
Link down tilt to up b was always a thing. Its just that its always been a frame perfect combo.

Still disappointed that :ultbanjokazooie: ‘S Wonderwing was never buffed. I mean I get it, that to the party crowd it is overpowered, much like:ultlittlemac:and:ultganondorf:, but also like those two, once you know how to play against it, it loses a lot of its luster.
I always thought it was odd that it had limited uses but was always so bad. More often than not I get kills by punishing the end lag than actually getting hit by it. I really only get hit by it like… twice in a match, and when I do get hit it can me unsafe on hit lol.
 

The_Bookworm

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Jan 10, 2018
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I always thought it was odd that it had limited uses but was always so bad. More often than not I get kills by punishing the end lag than actually getting hit by it. I really only get hit by it like… twice in a match, and when I do get hit it can me unsafe on hit lol.
I always find it strange that they did they explicitly added such a restriction to what is an otherwise fine move. I don't think 0-restriction Wonderwing is overbearing in the slightest (except for maybe low-level online lol).


Btw for future reference, in this thread, there is a rule about no double posting.
 

blackghost

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id have to go through the entire cast but is wonderwing even a top 5 side b? im not even sure. its def not a top 10 special move in general.
 

Linkmain-maybe

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id have to go through the entire cast but is wonderwing even a top 5 side b? im not even sure. its def not a top 10 special move in general.
It’s bad. Most of the OG 12 have better side B’s. Specifically Link, Mario, Samus, Ness, and Falcon. Many characters have similar reward for significantly less risk. Hero, Arséne Joker, Terry, and Sephiroth all have similar or greater rewards from Side B yet are leagues safer… and they have no limits besides MP meter and Arsén, both of which are easy to get.
 
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SKX31

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:ultpyra: / :ultmythra: nerfs don't seem to matter at all. The best Aegis players can still get the footstool out from the Side-B while Sparg0 + Shuton use it in ways opponents still would have difficulty dealing with it. Mythra's f-smash is only by a 5%-10% difference and with how good Mythra's damage racking capabilities are, it's still fairly easy to get an f-smash kill percent, especially considering it's super quick.
Overall I do agree, but Blazing End going from FAF 53 to FAF 57 is going to matter in ledgetrapping scenarios (another area Blazing End tends to be more often used in) as well as tossing it out in neutral / offstage since now that will delay follow ups. Yeah, opponents will still have a really difficult time dealing with it, but still: 4 additional frames where Pyra can't do anything could certainly matter for a character who has A) a slow initial dash / run speed and B) whose transformation to Mythra takes 32 frames to complete.

Mythra F Smash I feel might only matter in edge scenarios such as where one looks to confirm into it. She still has Lightning Buster and Up Smash to kill with as well.

While I've always been more skeptical re: Aegis, I don't think this will cause them to take a tumble from that extremely high perch they have.

id have to go through the entire cast but is wonderwing even a top 5 side b? im not even sure. its def not a top 10 special move in general.
I'd say no if only because of the very lacking shield damage Wonderwing has and the sourspot. I mean, as far as Side Bs go I'd put several ones above Wonderwing*:

*(Although Wonderwing is still somewhere like top 10-15 Side Bs because while it's commital in more than one way and does not work exactly as a comeback mechanic, it's highly damaging and if B-K can maintain a lead it's a really good closer against most of the cast that lack a command / tether grab. Oh right, almost forgot, it's also a really good recovery aid.)

  • :ultbowser:'s Flying Slam: Extremely quick, has a lot of reward on hit. Does about as much % as Wonderwing without the full commitment.
  • :ultdiddy: 's Monkey Flip. Can switch between a command grab and a kick with very little commitment, and Diddy can maintain that air speed or even B reverse.
  • :ultincineroar: 's Alolan Whip: Slow but extremely rewarding on hit. Does as much as Wonderwing without Revenge, but with it...
  • :ultjoker: 's Eiha. Yeah the DoT makes it worth it. The Arsene upgrade Eigaon is a bit more commital but jesus the damage increase is insane.
  • :ulthero: 's Zap spells (both uncharged and semicharged): A key component of Hero's spacing game and Zapple likewise does about as much as Wonderwing.
Also Linkmain-maybe Linkmain-maybe please don't double post. The edit function allows you to merge different conversations into one post, so I reccomend using that instead.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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It’s bad. Most of the OG 12 have better side B’s. Specifically Link, Mario, Samus, Ness, and Falcon. Many characters have similar reward for significantly less risk. Hero, Arséne Joker, Terry, and Sephiroth all have similar or greater rewards from Side B yet are leagues safer… and they have no limits besides MP meter and Arsén, both of which are easy to get.
I'd argue Bowser and Diddy Kong do too. Flying Slam and Monkey Flip are some of the best Command Grabs in the game, and Command Grabs are naturally good due to ignoring shield.
 

Linkmain-maybe

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:ulthero: 's Zap spells (both uncharged and semicharged): A key component of Hero's spacing game and Zapple likewise does about as much as Wonderwing.
It also stacks with buffs. So instead of doing 25%… it does 30%. It’s just better. If it’s fully charged, it does 2x damage than wonder wing and has about 4x the knockback, all the while still being safer.

I'd argue Bowser and Diddy Kong do too. Flying Slam and Monkey Flip are some of the best Command Grabs in the game, and Command Grabs are naturally good due to ignoring shield.
They also hard counter wonder wing because during wondering there is a small part of his body that can be grabbed.
 

ARISTOS

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Minmin plays as she should. She is playing arms in smash. Control neutral or the match will go poorly. She is at her core dhalsim.

The devs seem to agree with the group that Pikachu is more hyped than threat. Whether that actually holds true as we dive deeper into this game remains to be seen.
I can tell we are in true endgame of meta now because fringe midtiers are starting to be dropped and mains in the higher tiers focused on.

Not even really sure if the blazing end change matters too much.
Agreed that we're going to start seeing increased focus on upper echelon characters - similar to what happened post-Smash 4 once patches ended. That being said, the pool of competitive characters is still much wider than in that game.

Min Min got reined in quite drastically I think - losing nair safety is fine IMO since having such a quick landing option doesn't make too much sense for a Dhalsim-esqe character, but then losing safety on tilts and smashes as well hurts that very ability. Even Dhalsim is not quite as feast or famine as I think Min Min is now, and I think she's going to be incredibly inconsistent as a character moving forward.

Other buffs/nerfs are nice but I don't think they're quite needle-pushers for anybody. Learning how your main/secondary deals with Aegis should be your #1 focus moving forward tbh
 

Thinkaman

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"Why is a killmove with 36 frames of invincibility resource-gated???" - this thread

Infinite wonderwing wouldn't be a problem for anyone here, but would make the matchup beyond insufferable for low level players.

So if it doesn't matter to us...
...and it does matter to most players.....
...then the correct design should be..........
 

A_Kae

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losing safety on tilts and smashes as well hurts that very ability.
If I'm not mistaken, she only lost shield damage and not stun. I don't see any shieldstun modifiers added or changed on the scripts and the official patchnotes mention only "power against shields" and not "downtime when shielding", which is how they refer to shield damage and shieldstun.

Still a nerf to her potency against shields, and maybe that's the safety you're talking about here but I've heard people elsewhere talking about her losing outright stun on these moves and I don't think that's what happened.
 

Thinkaman

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If I'm not mistaken, she only lost shield damage and not stun. I don't see any shieldstun modifiers added or changed on the scripts and the official patchnotes mention only "power against shields" and not "downtime when shielding", which is how they refer to shield damage and shieldstun.

Still a nerf to her potency against shields, and maybe that's the safety you're talking about here but I've heard people elsewhere talking about her losing outright stun on these moves and I don't think that's what happened.
Shieldstun is calculated based on damage, and I believe this includes shield damage bonuses. (See: Pound)

The result should be a couple fewer frames for Min Min. Keeping in mind that Min Min's ground game was already the safest on shield in the game, I'm unconvinced that this actually matters as much as it is being described. Nair seems more important.
 

Cap'n Jack

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It’s bad. Most of the OG 12 have better side B’s. Specifically Link, Mario, Samus, Ness, and Falcon. Many characters have similar reward for significantly less risk. Hero, Arséne Joker, Terry, and Sephiroth all have similar or greater rewards from Side B yet are leagues safer… and they have no limits besides MP meter and Arsén, both of which are easy to get.
How Wonderwing is used separates weak Banjo players and strong ones. It really isn’t something to be used in neutral, and its best use is as one of the best recovery options in the game, but as an attack, it is high risk, so it is best used a punish. Honestly it works best in teams when you can use it to punish opponents stuck in an attack animation on your teammate.
 

A_Kae

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Shieldstun is calculated based on damage, and I believe this includes shield damage bonuses. (See: Pound)

The result should be a couple fewer frames for Min Min. Keeping in mind that Min Min's ground game was already the safest on shield in the game, I'm unconvinced that this actually matters as much as it is being described. Nair seems more important.
Pound has a 1.5x shieldstun mult though.

To my knowledge bonus shield damage has never applied to stun calculations, only base damage with staling. Consider Marth shield breaker, 8/9 base damage with +25 shield damage, only 8f/9f shieldstun.
 
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Nobie

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Imagine what Banjo & Kazooie's recovery would be like if they could Wonderwing every single time. No, seriously, imagine that.

Right now, Banjos tend not to do it high because they're potentially wasting a perfectly good Wonderwing to hit absolutely nothing. If they don't have to worry about using up a resource, it becomes even more versatile.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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It is what it is I suppose, we'll just have to see what players make of it and how they fare, but this reinforces that they want the character to live and die on whether they can play campy, and that's a pretty big let down. I'm less opinionated on how this affects her at a top competitive level, I'm just kinda taken aback that she feels genuinely less fun to play as a result of the change.
Always has been, most smash people want to live in the magical land of technnical rushdown characters, zoners or defensive characters should no even exist to some of them.

To be honest i think the devteam are grateful to be free from the balance of this game, imagine playing +80 MUs for 3 or 4 charcaters(no way they only have 1 tester per character), and in the end it doesnt matter because most of the competitve fanbase will still wine that you didnt buff their main/nerf the supposed "top tier"
 

Cap'n Jack

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Imagine what Banjo & Kazooie's recovery would be like if they could Wonderwing every single time. No, seriously, imagine that.

Right now, Banjos tend not to do it high because they're potentially wasting a perfectly good Wonderwing to hit absolutely nothing. If they don't have to worry about using up a resource, it becomes even more versatile.
Seriously. Wonderwing is best used as a recovery.
Like, I’d forgo power for unlimited use
 

Rizen

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Several characters have one move that really ties their move set together and they'd be significantly worse without it. For :ultincineroar: it's revenge that turns him from an immobile punching bag to a threat capable of massive damage on hit. :ultbyleth:'s Nair is a quick gtfo option where most of his moves are slow zoning tools. For :ultbanjokazooie: it's wonder wing. WW gives him a much better recovery that otherwise would be fairly easy to intercept and a huge area punish/zone breaking tool in his zoner play style.
 

NairWizard

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For those disappointed by nerfs to their character, keep in mind that before the devs ever released the game, they nerfed a ton of characters a lot more than the minor nerfs you see here. For all you know, Min Min's n-air may have been positive on block at some point in the development process. Just pretend that what you have now is the release version of the character, and you'll soon see that it really isn't that bad; you still have a good character on your hands.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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ROB and Sonic being untouched will probably be the death of this game in a year or two.
What? Not even metaknight killed brawl, what will end "killing" this game is the next smash and that is still a "if the next smash is considered better that ultimate".

What is worse for the game is the doomer actittude that 2 "boring" top tier characters are going to kill the game when they have been in the game for 3 years, and there are 5-8 characters with similar powerlevel.
 

Ziodyne 21

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I just kinda feel bad for Protobaham right now. Its likely ust by terrible timing but every time he. Wins a major Japanese Tournament. A balance comes with Min-Min nerfs. I do not think Min-Min needed really any more nerfs, and these ones look pretty impactful

Maybe the Balance team have taken resutls from Japan for their. Balance descions. I mean Min-Min was getting strong results in Japan was a very disliked character there. Meanwhile how much Pikachu rep and resutls you see in Japan
 
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blackghost

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"Why is a killmove with 36 frames of invincibility resource-gated???" - this thread

Infinite wonderwing wouldn't be a problem for anyone here, but would make the matchup beyond insufferable for low level players.

So if it doesn't matter to us...
...and it does matter to most players.....
...then the correct design should be..........
i think we belittle non-competitive players a lot here. really dont see how wonderwing would terrorize them any more than hero, ganon, sepiroth, arsene, or bowser.
and its not that its just resource gated its non replenishing resource gated. in most fighting games the bar to have a move limited per life is HUGE and WW doesnt even come close. im talking dark phoenix, x factor, pandora, instinct cancel, and more.
 

ZephyrZ

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i think we belittle non-competitive players a lot here. really dont see how wonderwing would terrorize them any more than hero, ganon, sepiroth, arsene, or bowser.
It's not really that belittling if you've watched casual play. Ever seen a casual Kirby? Stone Spam is actually a viable strategy in low casual free-for-alls. Kirby is actually designed in such a way that you can just use the B-button and still potentially win matches.

Players who study frame data and know the differences between invincibility / intangibility / armor can easily identify stone's big weaknesses and exploit it. But that's a lot harder if you don't have deeper understandings of the core mechanics of the game. Low level players can adapt on the fly but their game knowledge is much lower and the situations they play in are far more chaotic.

Wonder Wing is like stone but takes much less time positioning and is more effective for targeting groups of grounded opponents. And with casual players tending to have less game knowledge overall, they're going to have a much harder time finding counterplay overall.

Compared to Ganon's Doriyah, which is pretty crazy especially in free-for-all situations where it's hard to react to things, but the counterplay is also far more straight forward. You don't need to know any fancy mechanics to work around that. You just need to get the heck out of their when he lifts his giant sword over his head. And might I mention that that move is much worse then WW in competitive play - competitive Ganons use more Nairs and F-tilts while casuals use a lot more smashes. It's also funny you mention Sephiroth and Joker (and heck, even Hero) since those are high skill floor characters casual players kind of need to rely on cheese for.
and its not that its just resource gated its non replenishing resource gated. in most fighting games the bar to have a move limited per life is HUGE and WW doesnt even come close. im talking dark phoenix, x factor, pandora, instinct cancel, and more.
Does it really need to replenish? How often are people going to be using Wonder Wing a stock?

Besides Smash isn't most fighting games.
 

StrangeKitten

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I think either :ultbanjokazooie:'s Wonderwing needed a buff - either less startup, less sour spot, or both - or their overall kit needed buffs. Making up throw to up air true to give them a low % combo throw, and upping the damage on a few of their moves, would have gone a long way. As I've said before, it feels like Banjo & Kazooie were designed with a weak kit because Wonderwing was supposed to be good... only for Wonderwing to not be very good. So it should have been made the menace the devs thought it would be, or have the rest of the kit brought up to snuff. And I don't think either direction would have made them that much more overbearing to casuals.

I am loving :ultpiranha: 's new down tilt! It almost never linked into fair, but now it does for a pretty long time! I hadn't been playing Plant much as of late, but I'll keep playing it for a while now, in hopes of keeping this thread updated with any more thoughts I have on it.
 
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Nobie

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Mewtwo players are divided over how big a deal the ftilt buff is, but I think it all comes down to the fact that the slight increase means that Mewtwo can now kill one successful interaction earlier (roughly 10% sooner). That feels big but not huge, and the fact that it literally affects zero combos negatively is also significant.
 

StrangeKitten

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Mewtwo players are divided over how big a deal the ftilt buff is, but I think it all comes down to the fact that the slight increase means that Mewtwo can now kill one successful interaction earlier (roughly 10% sooner). That feels big but not huge, and the fact that it literally affects zero combos negatively is also significant.
And forward throw, which can be comboed into, doing more damage shaves off another successful interaction or two. Not the buffs we wanted, but good and significant nonetheless!
 

Luig

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It's not even a character, but I am very disappointed that the input lag has never been fixed since the game's release. When SFV had 6, it was ridiculed until capcom changed it. Just think it'd really increase my enjoyment, would feel nice and light.

Anyways, honestly the change list was a lot smaller than I expected. Unsure why i expected a grand big last patch I guess, haha. I'm most confused by the min-min nerfs, I'm not sure if I really say people clamoring for her to be nerfed.
 

NairWizard

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It's not even a character, but I am very disappointed that the input lag has never been fixed since the game's release. When SFV had 6, it was ridiculed until capcom changed it. Just think it'd really increase my enjoyment, would feel nice and light.

Anyways, honestly the change list was a lot smaller than I expected. Unsure why i expected a grand big last patch I guess, haha. I'm most confused by the min-min nerfs, I'm not sure if I really say people clamoring for her to be nerfed.
Input lag is a tricky subject. With reduced input lag, say 3 frames, you can react to things like Samus' grab (f15) if you have a sharp reaction time. It makes the gap between those with 12-frame reaction times and those with 14-frame reaction times unnecessarily huge imo.
 

Luig

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Input lag is a tricky subject. With reduced input lag, say 3 frames, you can react to things like Samus' grab (f15) if you have a sharp reaction time. It makes the gap between those with 12-frame reaction times and those with 14-frame reaction times unnecessarily huge imo.
I don't really see this as a big issue though? Like, if you really need to, I'd much rather you change attack speeds than have 6 or more frames of input lag baked into the game. I see it as something that only negatively impacts gamefeel.
 

Idon

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Input lag is a tricky subject. With reduced input lag, say 3 frames, you can react to things like Samus' grab (f15) if you have a sharp reaction time. It makes the gap between those with 12-frame reaction times and those with 14-frame reaction times unnecessarily huge imo.
GOOD?
Are you seriously playing devil's advocate for INPUT LAG?

No character and no game should be balanced around that, ever.

This is just like arguing for poor online because improving it would make reacting to Samus easier. In fact it's worse because it effects offline play too.
 
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Luig

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GOOD?
Are you seriously playing devil's advocate for INPUT LAG?

No character and no game should be balanced around that, ever.

This is just like arguing for poor online because improving it would make reacting to Samus easier. In fact it's worse because it effects offline play too.
Yeah, I believe it also just pushes back the 12-14 reaction time thing back a few frames, except now a lot of people would have been able to react to something on sight or sound, but they just can't because... the game is laggy. And yeah, it compounding on online lag is just terrible.
 

NairWizard

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I’m not playing devil’s advocate. I genuinely like the game more this way, but I should recognize my own bias. One of the reasons I’ve found Ultimate more competitively enjoyable and accessible than its predecessors is the reduced importance of reaction time. Moving the window to 17-21 frames creates unreactable situations while keeping other relevant timing-based reactions. Brawl and 4 had really obnoxious reactionary situations that prevented me from really keeping up against great players.

Of course, Ultimate does this in other ways than input lag like universal ledge getup animations being so slow and shield drop being 7 frames (in 4 you could cover both roll and getup on reaction by shielding at ledge), but the lag is a big part of it.

But you guys are right, the feel of the game is definitely more important than that. My competitive experience represents a small piece of the pie relative to all smash play.

(If the game really feels heavy to you though, it's not the input lag, it's the buffer system imo)
 
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