Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Cutie Gwen]

I believe counters are only meant to ignore Wonderwing, not retaliate against it. Sakurai explained Wonderwing as a move that can only be blocked or grabbed, so I am not sure why only Sora’s counter damages Wonderwing when someone like Marth’s does not.

Again, Sora's disrupts the attack when physical, meaning Banjo gets into a stun animation, cancelling the Wonderwing. This is a trait unique to Sora and was entirely deliberate, though if the argument is that all counters should do that, that's a different matter entirely, one I agree with lol

 

[blackghost]

the fact we allow players to have custom button layouts (per character) but wont turn hazards on or off for more legal stages (because reasons) baffles me. my only issue with competitive ultimate that the community messed up is the stagelist. playing platform fighters is about learning to platform.

idc if people want to argue just to hear music they like, and honestly anything is better than smashville tracks, but a more varied stagelist makes the game more interesting to play and watch. we dont have to "lose" stages we just get more if we simply turn a button off or on.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Again, Sora's disrupts the attack when physical, meaning Banjo gets into a stun animation, cancelling the Wonderwing. This is a trait unique to Sora and was entirely deliberate, though if the argument is that all counters should do that, that's a different matter entirely, one I agree with lol

I actually learned recently that 's Blade Counter also does the same thing. It is not a unique trait for 's Counterattack, as Swordfighter had the counter stun mechanic first.

However, Swordfighter's counter is also unique in that it sends the opponents vertically, which unfortunately heavily limits its ability to edgeguard.
Sora's counter sending in a normal angle for counters makes it much better for edgeguarding.

Most players don't know about the Swordfighter counter stun thing because: a) Swordfighter executes his counter-attack very fast, making it hard to notice it; b) barely anyone plays Swordfighter anymore; c) those that do play Swordfighter usually chooses Reversal Slash as the down special of choice.

 

[StrangeKitten]

the fact we allow players to have custom button layouts (per character) but wont turn hazards on or off for more legal stages (because reasons) baffles me. my only issue with competitive ultimate that the community messed up is the stagelist. playing platform fighters is about learning to platform.

idc if people want to argue just to hear music they like, and honestly anything is better than smashville tracks, but a more varied stagelist makes the game more interesting to play and watch. we dont have to "lose" stages we just get more if we simply turn a button off or on.

The problem with trying out mixed hazards is that it's easy to end up picking, say, Pokemon Stadium 2 with hazards on, waste the time it takes to realize hazards are on, back out to change ruleset, pick stage and characters again. Eats up time, and could even allow for players to get a free while of seeing their opponent's habits before having to fix the problem.

That being said, I'm all for a purely hazards-on ruleset the whole way through a tournament, and think we should try that out!

 

[Idon]

the fact we allow players to have custom button layouts (per character) but wont turn hazards on or off for more legal stages (because reasons) baffles me. my only issue with competitive ultimate that the community messed up is the stagelist. playing platform fighters is about learning to platform.

idc if people want to argue just to hear music they like, and honestly anything is better than smashville tracks, but a more varied stagelist makes the game more interesting to play and watch. we dont have to "lose" stages we just get more if we simply turn a button off or on.

The issue for mixed hazards is it's a logistical nightmare for TOs.

Having a custom name+controls isn't difficult to remember because you wrote it yourself and customized it and you want to keep it the same throughout the set.
However, there is zero indication of when something is hazards on/off until you actually go into the stage itself. It's very easy for someone to play 2 minutes of a match and then go "ah damn, I forgot to exit out all the way and go into the hazards on/off playlist." when the stage turns into a waterslide.

In a single match, this wouldn't be an issue but across the literal dozens of matches that have to happen and how late tournaments run already as it is, I doubt we'll ever adopt a mixed hazards playlist unless they patch in a Hazards on/off button like FD/BF forms.

 

[Rizen]

Well I attended a tournament and can confirm that is indeed 's worst MU. Big sweeping slashes on mobile characters wall him super hard. This video of Skittles vs Cosmos is a good example of what I'm talking about.

But that's why I have as a secondary. There were at least 3 Pythras there. A large part of any character's viability is going to be how well they fare in the Pythra MU. I feel like most character mains would benefit from picking up a secondary for the MU and that goes all the way up to Maester's G&W.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Whether or not Sora's edgeguarding is actually good is up for debate (I do feel like the ability to be practically anywhere offstage is valuable even if the speed he does it at isn't all that great), but as NAirWizard points out, I don't think it'll matter too much if it ends up being mediocre, because if we're solely talking about Sora's kill power, he looks fully packed. Kid's got FF-ing aerials for kills, DSmash two-framing (which I'm pretty sure lasts for 5 frames), rising aerials/tilts/projectiles for kill confirms, UAir juggles, FAir ledgetraps, and even his own kill throw. Only time killing is actually going to look ilke an issue for him seems to be more or less during neutral, where his moves aren't exactly safe or fast enough to throw at a whim while his only burst options don't look like particularily great KO options either (his speed's not helping him landing those kill confirms he needs either, save for when the opponent's pressured into a corner).

In fact, how Sora is going to be handling neutral is what I'm more concerned about, because I'm not really sure what he's meant to do besides Firaga zoning. Trying to go for fastfall-sword spacing a la Fire Emblem/Final Fantasy Character style doesn't really work in my experience given Sora's overly floaty nature versus someone like Chrom or Corrin, a bait-and-punish playstyle doesn't seem to work either given he lacks Puff's or Wario's drift, and while he could opt for grounded whiff punishes, the safety on his dash attack has me skeptical on how ideal of a strategy that is. I'm guessing maybe Sonic Blade could be used to help his whiff punish and bait-and-punish game, but even in that regard I'm not sure if Sonic Blade will be a safe option for such things.

Granted, I think his advantage state will be strong enough that I think he'll still be able to do well even with a potentially lacking neutral, but I'm also scratching my head as to which relevant MUs any of his neutral tools would become outright oppressive in, and I'm even more worried about the MUs where simple zoning won't really cut it (Palu and Sephiroth come to mind in this regard). Then again, that's probably something a much better player than me like MKLeo can figure out lol.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and his Ultimate Frame Data page has been updated to show his hitboxes: Sora - Ultimate Frame Data. Sakurai wasn't kidding about the lingering hitboxes thing either lol.

 

[Iron Maw]

Some Day 4 Sora matches in tournament. Tweek already putting some work with this character!

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Riddles's Kazuya MU chart

pic.twitter.com/2epf8FFmZn

— Liquid | Riddles (@RiddlesMK) October 22, 2021

Here is Brrr's response, one of the other best Kazuya players.

Y’all might think this list is cap but Sonic Min Min and Snake are actually unwinnable https://t.co/cRUBw6wvUG

— TLOC | Brr (@thegingerbrrd) October 22, 2021

BTW, Tweek has already been having success with Day 3 Sora.

Congrats PSW Top 8!@TweekSsb cruises through bracket w the Day 3 Sora, until @Jakal_SS forces the monkey off of the bench in Grands set 2. @Rivers3k doesn't drop a game until W Finals, playing more Chrom than Diddy

Bracket: https://t.co/ZJq36JQV5a
VODs: https://t.co/vZ1tMSZHq9 pic.twitter.com/7eLrIHBWJ3

— Master Hand Gaming (@MasterHandGames) October 22, 2021

 

[BlueRando]

The more i play , the more i'm convinced that he's a very good character.

First of all, his combo game seems already nuts, and the Nair/Fair loops aren't even that hard to pull off. He can easily rack up damage with combos and juggles, and then he can finish you off with an edgeguard and/or with his many kill confirms off his aerials or Dtilt>Uair, which is Sora's main kill option at the highest %.

And then, there's the rest: strong off stage tools, both for edgeguarding and recovering, a strong advantage state, strong juggles, a combo throw, a kill throw, good mixups in general, decent oos, and all of his spells are good in many situations. And the list can go on.

The thing is, Sora seems like the type of character that can deal with many situations: fast and in-your-face type of characters can try to suffocate him, but at the same time Sora is actually pretty competent at the boxing/close range game, and can converts into big damage/kill confirms off almost any hit, which means that you are never truly comfortable near him.

Granted, he's slow, so i can see him having trouble with zoners/campers, but Sora still has his spells, which can at the very least give him a way to work around it.

This sheer versatility, the way i see it, is the mark of a VERY good character. Playing Sora, i never felt like there was a situation that he couldn't deal with, i never felt limited, and this is a good sign to me.

On a side note, many people thought that Sora would have been a Bayonetta 2.0, or a Mewtwo 2.0, but I personally think that he is more of a stronger version of the PSI kids, in particular he is quite similar to in many aspects, they share:

-good recovery
-multiple edgeguarding tools
-a gameplan revolving around pressuring the opponent with safe aerials and movement mixups, a "floaty rushdown" archetype
-mediocre ground speed and good aerial mobility
-floatiness and a slow double jump
-combo loops that either put the opponents in a bad spot or straight up kill them
-a not-spammable projectile that keeps the opponent in check (PK fire for Lucas ad Firaga for Sora)
-a kill throw
-the best air dodge in the game, alongside Ness

However, as i said, Sora is just a better character lol, he has a way stronger advantage state, easier and more damaging combos, and more tools in general. But for me there's something amusing in the fact that my dream character for Smash and my main have so many similarities

 

[Idon]

I'm never going to complain about Byleth's lack of aerial and ground speed ever again after playing some nonstop Sora. It feels absolutely horrible when I'm in disadvantage and simply can't escape like I normally would.

Also getting past zoners is horrible with Sora. I legitimately do not know how high level Soras will be able to get in on them.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The more i play , the more i'm convinced that he's a very good character.

First of all, his combo game seems already nuts, and the Nair/Fair loops aren't even that hard to pull off. He can easily rack up damage with combos and juggles, and then he can finish you off with an edgeguard and/or with his many kill confirms off his aerials or Dtilt>Uair, which is Sora's main kill option at the highest %.

And then, there's the rest: strong off stage tools, both for edgeguarding and recovering, a strong advantage state, strong juggles, a combo throw, a kill throw, good mixups in general, decent oos, and all of his spells are good in many situations. And the list can go on.

The thing is, Sora seems like the type of character that can deal with many situations: fast and in-your-face type of characters can try to suffocate him, but at the same time Sora is actually pretty competent at the boxing/close range game, and can converts into big damage/kill confirms off almost any hit, which means that you are never truly comfortable near him.

Granted, he's slow, so i can see him having trouble with zoners/campers, but Sora still has his spells, which can at the very least give him a way to work around it.

This sheer versatility, the way i see it, is the mark of a VERY good character. Playing Sora, i never felt like there was a situation that he couldn't deal with, i never felt limited, and this is a good sign to me.

On a side note, many people thought that Sora would have been a Bayonetta 2.0, or a Mewtwo 2.0, but I personally think that he is more of a stronger version of the PSI kids, in particular he is quite similar to in many aspects, they share:

-good recovery
-multiple edgeguarding tools
-a gameplan revolving around pressuring the opponent with safe aerials and movement mixups, a "floaty rushdown" archetype
-mediocre ground speed and good aerial mobility
-floatiness and a slow double jump
-combo loops that either put the opponents in a bad spot or straight up kill them
-a not-spammable projectile that keeps the opponent in check (PK fire for Lucas ad Firaga for Sora)
-a kill throw

However, as i said, Sora is just a better character lol, he has a way stronger advantage state, easier and more damaging combos, and more tools in general. But for me there's something amusing in the fact that my dream character for Smash and my main have so many similarities

I'm never going to complain about Byleth's lack of aerial and ground speed ever again after playing some nonstop Sora. It feels absolutely horrible when I'm in disadvantage and simply can't escape like I normally would.

Also getting past zoners is horrible with Sora. I legitimately do not know how high level Soras will be able to get in on them.

The duality of a Smash player.

It is cool to see Tweek get some initial success with Sora, but time will tell how long that will last. I still remember him getting some initial success with before dropping him after Glitch 7 nearly a month after release.

 

[Idon]

The duality of a Smash player.

It is cool to see Tweek get some initial success with Sora, but time will tell how long that will last. I still remember him getting some initial success with before dropping him after Glitch 7 nearly a month after release.

Well don't get me wrong, I think Sora has pleeeeeeenty of strengths. High tier at worst with how much he can do, and probably will rise as Sora specialists discover more tricks.

I just... really getting hit has him lol. I suppose that speaks more for me than Sora but damn.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Well don't get me wrong, I think Sora has pleeeeeeenty of strengths. High tier at worst with how much he can do, and probably will rise as Sora specialists discover more tricks.

I just... really getting hit has him lol. I suppose that speaks more for me than Sora but damn.

Eh, I am still kinda sceptic on his viability.

As you said, his floaty nature and mediocre mobility can it hard for the character to approach, especially defensive characters. Both of these traits makes his disadvantage hard as well, particularly from above. His buttons also being sluggish even for swordfighter standards (having merely average to above average range for a swordie as well), can also result in him getting pressured by other characters that are much more button-pressing happy.

The thing that really annoys me about this character to no end is also the fact that his multi-hits tend to randomly fail sometimes, especially Thundaga. While I have seen a lot of people praise his fast-fall aerial -> KO button confirms quite a bit, I am also kinda curious on how safe it is to actually attempt doing this. I personally don't really know how safe fast fall aerial 1 is vs shields. And even if they block the fast fall aerial and it is safe... what is Sora supposed to do afterwards?

Right now, I think the viability floor of the character is mid to lower-mid tier, but he may rise to high tier depending on what his character mains cook up with him. Due to his weird attributes, it may also take some time for people to get used to fighting against him as well. He feels like a Brawl character in Smash Ultimate.

 

[Idon]

The thing that really annoys me about this character to no end is also the fact that his multi-hits tend to randomly fail sometimes, especially Thundaga. While I have seen a lot of people praise his fast-fall aerial -> KO button confirms quite a bit, I am also kinda curious on how safe it is to actually attempt doing this. I personally don't really know how safe fast fall aerial 1 is vs shields. And even if they block the fast fall aerial and it is safe... what is Sora supposed to do afterwards?

Oh my God, yes I've been meaning to complain talk about this.

Why is Thundaga more RNG than the entirety of Hero's kit? Randomly, it's the best spell in the game making a wall of death that leads to death. Also randomly though, the move decides to simply not work, either by account of the enemy running through the deadzones, or one of the lightning bolts deciding he doesn't want to play nice and pass the enemy to the other bolt.
With 30 frame startup and zero forward coverage, I find myself using it only when I know that not hitting it won't make me explode.

Similarly, dair has 50/50 odds of the blade actually being on the down-swing. If it is, the coverage is decent, but if it isn't Sora can be beaten by even the tiniest of up airs.

I really don't see the utility in a diving down air that hits above half the time if I'm being honest.

Anyway, I mostly agree on your other criticisisms of Sora's sluggish nature. He's like he's underwater but his moves last a pretty damn long while. Definitely not immediately "Oh yeah, this swordie's top" like, say, Mythra, but I think by his very aerial based nature, lingering hitboxes, and natural combos, he'll at least be able to gatekeep mid-tiers below himself.

 

[BlueRando]

Eh, I am still kinda sceptic on his viability.

As you said, his floaty nature and mediocre mobility can it hard for the character to approach, especially defensive characters. Both of these traits makes his disadvantage hard as well, particularly from above. His buttons also being sluggish even for swordfighter standards (having merely average to above average range for a swordie as well), can also result in him getting pressured by other characters that are much more button-pressing happy.

The thing that really annoys me about this character to no end is also the fact that his multi-hits tend to randomly fail sometimes, especially Thundaga. While I have seen a lot of people praise his fast-fall aerial -> KO button confirms quite a bit, I am also kinda curious on how safe it is to actually attempt doing this. I personally don't really know how safe fast fall aerial 1 is vs shields. And even if they block the fast fall aerial and it is safe... what is Sora supposed to do afterwards?

Right now, I think the viability floor of the character is mid to lower-mid tier, but he may rise to high tier depending on what his character mains cook up with him. Due to his weird attributes, it may also take some time for people to get used to fighting against him as well. He feels like a Brawl character in Smash Ultimate.

Brawl is my favorite game of all time, so I kind of feel at home with Sora
I think one of the reasons as to why so many people are skeptical about is because he doesn't play like a traditional Smash character. I feel like in order to play him, you have to adopt the Kingdom Hearts playstyle: mash the A button like a madman and win lol

But seriously, when i play Sora, it truly seems like I'm playing a Kingdom Hearts game, it feels so nice. Sakurai is just so good at translating the playstyle and spirit of every character from their franchises, I don't even understand how he do it, he's goated.

 

[Sucumbio]

So apparently, ‘s counter works on’s Wonderwing? I wonder if that will get fixed in a patch?

Not only does it work... It is basically a ohko lol

Never nerf this pic.twitter.com/sFgAzWTrbY

— Jumpsteady (@Jalaniftw) October 19, 2021

 

[Cheryl~]

https://twitter.com/Pikanatox/status/1451635731898720263?s=20

If you're looking to watch a big tournament this weekend, the next installment of Maesuma is happening tonight, with players such as ProtoBanHam, Tea, KEN, Gackt, Shuton, and many more in attendance. The top 32 seeding above seems to be the standard for this region of Japan, only really lacking Zackray. (he hasn't been to many events recently, maybe he's busy labbing Sora tech?)

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Eh, I am still kinda sceptic on his viability.

As you said, his floaty nature and mediocre mobility can it hard for the character to approach, especially defensive characters. Both of these traits makes his disadvantage hard as well, particularly from above. His buttons also being sluggish even for swordfighter standards (having merely average to above average range for a swordie as well), can also result in him getting pressured by other characters that are much more button-pressing happy.

The thing that really annoys me about this character to no end is also the fact that his multi-hits tend to randomly fail sometimes, especially Thundaga. While I have seen a lot of people praise his fast-fall aerial -> KO button confirms quite a bit, I am also kinda curious on how safe it is to actually attempt doing this. I personally don't really know how safe fast fall aerial 1 is vs shields. And even if they block the fast fall aerial and it is safe... what is Sora supposed to do afterwards?

Right now, I think the viability floor of the character is mid to lower-mid tier, but he may rise to high tier depending on what his character mains cook up with him. Due to his weird attributes, it may also take some time for people to get used to fighting against him as well. He feels like a Brawl character in Smash Ultimate.

They aren’t super safe if he’s doing them landing, which he will if he’s trying to get a kill confirm into them. Neutral air 1 is -6 and Fair one is -9. Range is about what you’d expect but if he doesn’t fast fall after nair/fair 1 and realizes he hit their shield he can input nair/fair 2 and fade back since he sorta “bounces” off the shield. I’ve caught a few people mashing oos options after they shield my fair/nair 1 which fair/nair 2 which is rather safe as your fading back with the hitbox. If you catch them and FF that fair/nair 2 you could possibly confirm into a kill move. I’ve struggled however getting confirms to work unless I was dangerously close to the opponent though so I don’t know how well this will work out for him as a play around to shield happy opponents when they are at kill percentage for his confirms.

I have noticed difficulties closing out stocks when I simply can’t land a confirm when opponents start playing shield heavy. Sora’s throws aren’t overly threatening unless your near ledge and it’s not like he can tomahawk you. He can apply plenty of safe shield pressure but when he’s being extra safe about it he’s probably not going to be able to lead it into a kill. I am definitely curious how Sora players will play around shield as they develop.

 

[meleebrawler]

Brawl is my favorite game of all time, so I kind of feel at home with Sora
I think one of the reasons as to why so many people are skeptical about is because he doesn't play like a traditional Smash character. I feel like in order to play him, you have to adopt the Kingdom Hearts playstyle: mash the A button like a madman and win lol

Until you trigger your enemy's revenge value and they blow up your comparatively small life bar. There's no super drive forms, summons, Curaga or park rides to save you here either.

What I see is a return to the more methodical style of KH1, where proper timing of strikes, blocks and spells to intercept attacks and exploit weaknesses is more rewarding overall than mashing.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

It is cool to see Tweek get some initial success with Sora, but time will tell how long that will last. I still remember him getting some initial success with before dropping him after Glitch 7 nearly a month after release.

Let's be real, Tweek could pick almost any character up and win tournaments with them if he enjoys their kit. He and Zackray are probably the two best at using every type of character, as Leo and Sparg0 only really use sword characters.
BTW, Cloudy wasn't originally so positive on Sora but now his opinions have changed.

I take it back, character is good https://t.co/awckZFexid

— Cloudy (@Cloudyos_) October 22, 2021

 

[SKX31]

The duality of a Smash player.

It is cool to see Tweek get some initial success with Sora, but time will tell how long that will last. I still remember him getting some initial success with before dropping him after Glitch 7 nearly a month after release.

Let's be real, Tweek could pick almost any character up and win tournaments with them if he enjoys their kit. He and Zackray are probably the two best at using every type of character, as Leo and Sparg0 only really use sword characters.

Did he ever say why he dropped B-K? That's one really intriguing "What if" scenario since if he had stayed with the duo I'd imagine that there'd be more positive opinions about them, even if it would only be a slight change.

I have noticed difficulties closing out stocks when I simply can’t land a confirm when opponents start playing shield heavy. Sora’s throws aren’t overly threatening unless your near ledge and it’s not like he can tomahawk you. He can apply plenty of safe shield pressure but when he’s being extra safe about it he’s probably not going to be able to lead it into a kill. I am definitely curious how Sora players will play around shield as they develop.

Blizzard and D-Smash can do a lot of shield damage: the former might set up kill confirms while the latter sends at a low angle, although the former is only usable every third spell and the latter looks really punishable on whiff.

l'm honestly not sure. Playing the spacing game might work vs. say or , but that's not going to be easy vs. swordies. In those cases Sora might want to go more bait and punish. Dont think that's an one size fits all response though.

 

[blackghost]

The fact I had an easier time gauging Kazuya at launch than I do sora is super funny to me.

Remember when some people acted like sora combo game would be like bayo? Well they were right just not in the way they thought. Sora and bayo combo game at high level is first hit fair into imagination.

Also if you are new to sora and want to learn how to edge gaurd I'd go watch see lima highlights I think that's the best template to learn how to edge gaurd the characters have word places where they overlap.

 

[NotLiquid]

Tentatively I'd like to estimate that Sora is good and in the upper half of the cast but a lot of his performance is going to be particularly contingent on how players learn to navigate his very strange neutral. Sora has some of the best attacks in the game attached to some very lopsided burst range. Up air is genuinely in contention for one of the best in the game, but then of course his PSI kid type double jump prevents it from being at that Palutena level where being underneath her is one of the most frightening game states in Ultimate. His dash attack has some of the greatest margin of error this type of move may grant, but then he can't actually apply it particularly well for mobility like multiple other characters. Sonic Blade, the one move you'd figure would give Sora a greater threat range, suffices for very little outside of mitigating overextensions (and probably for good reason as there's an alternate timeline somewhere out there where Sora is entirely dependent on the move like Sonic's spindash). There is some weird ways in which Sora has to work to substitute factors about things like his out-of-shield game and shield pressure, and that's the part that's probably going to hang above this character's head as a big question mark until we see more of him, because in a vacuum, a lot of what he has should be good despite some awkward numbers.

You know how characters like Wolf, Min Min and Pikachu will sometimes hit you once, maybe twice during a stock with one or two big conversions and you'll feel like you've just let the momentum of the match completely slip away regardless of what the actual numbers are showing? Sora right now feels like he's almost the complete opposite of that; maybe it's a consequence of his deliberately dinky presentation and how hitting things with him can feel like slapping an aluminum foiled mattress with a fly swatter, but before accounting for optimized play/kill confirms/combos (which is already making strides and is likely to play a big part in the character's future), a whole lot of Sora's natural kit is just built to perpetually keep the opponent in a disadvantage state through some smaller engagements. Before you know it, you'll have eaten one or two more generic normal chains, have to contend with a few magic setups while trying to reset, then eat another hit, and oops you just accumulated 50% trying to answer back to everything without even noticing because Sora's attacks are generally good at option coverage when he's the one that's taken the wheel. This isn't a Kazuya case where he's reliant to a fault on hit confirming off of one move and then doesn't have a lot of ways to push advantage, or a Banjo case where he tries to smoke-and-mirrors his way into forcing an errant approach. Sora just kind of accelerates in varying degrees of increments, and it kind of feels like he sneaks up on you.

Or maybe I'm way off and delirious from the fact that it's 3:30 AM here. I'd be interested to see Sparg0 try picking up Sora. A lot of the flow to Sora's game plan kinda sorta feel like Cloud where the play dynamic is so much more about how Cloud is basically spending half of the game trying to keep you from resetting the playing field.

 

[meleebrawler]

Tentatively I'd like to estimate that Sora is good and in the upper half of the cast but a lot of his performance is going to be particularly contingent on how players learn to navigate his very strange neutral. Sora has some of the best attacks in the game attached to some very lopsided burst range. Up air is genuinely in contention for one of the best in the game, but then of course his PSI kid type double jump prevents it from being at that Palutena level where being underneath her is one of the most frightening game states in Ultimate. His dash attack has some of the greatest margin of error this type of move may grant, but then he can't actually apply it particularly well for mobility like multiple other characters. Sonic Blade, the one move you'd figure would give Sora a greater threat range, suffices for very little outside of mitigating overextensions (and probably for good reason as there's an alternate timeline somewhere out there where Sora is entirely dependent on the move like Sonic's spindash). There is some weird ways in which Sora has to work to substitute factors about things like his out-of-shield game and shield pressure, and that's the part that's probably going to hang above this character's head as a big question mark until we see more of him, because in a vacuum, a lot of what he has should be good despite some awkward numbers.

You know how characters like Wolf, Min Min and Pikachu will sometimes hit you once, maybe twice during a stock with one or two big conversions and you'll feel like you've just let the momentum of the match completely slip away regardless of what the actual numbers are showing? Sora right now feels like he's almost the complete opposite of that; maybe it's a consequence of his deliberately dinky presentation and how hitting things with him can feel like slapping an aluminum foiled mattress with a fly swatter, but before accounting for optimized play/kill confirms/combos (which is already making strides and is likely to play a big part in the character's future), a whole lot of Sora's natural kit is just built to perpetually keep the opponent in a disadvantage state through some smaller engagements. Before you know it, you'll have eaten one or two more generic normal chains, have to contend with a few magic setups while trying to reset, then eat another hit, and oops you just accumulated 50% trying to answer back to everything without even noticing because Sora's attacks are generally good at option coverage when he's the one that's taken the wheel. This isn't a Kazuya case where he's reliant to a fault on hit confirming off of one move and then doesn't have a lot of ways to push advantage, or a Banjo case where he tries to smoke-and-mirrors his way into forcing an errant approach. Sora just kind of accelerates in varying degrees of increments, and it kind of feels like he sneaks up on you.

Or maybe I'm way off and delirious from the fact that it's 3:30 AM here. I'd be interested to see Sparg0 try picking up Sora. A lot of the flow to Sora's game plan kinda sorta feel like Cloud where the play dynamic is so much more about how Cloud is basically spending half of the game trying to keep you from resetting the playing field.

Again, to actual seasoned Kingdom Hearts Critical veterans, what you describe Sora feeling like is pretty much how most noteworthy boss fights go down. Dodge until an opening presents itself, attack until your combo finishes or the opponent breaks away, then back off and start dodging again, maybe tossing a spell as you do so for extra damage.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Not only does it work... It is basically a ohko lol

Never nerf this pic.twitter.com/sFgAzWTrbY

— Jumpsteady (@Jalaniftw) October 19, 2021

I see my discovery is starting to make some news. Saw it get posted on the my Google home page. I think this one won’t go unnoticed by Sakurai and I wouldn’t be surprised if it gets nerfed.

 

[Nekoo]

I see my discovery is starting to make some news. Saw it get posted on the my Google home page. I think this one won’t go unnoticed by Sakurai and I wouldn’t be surprised if it gets nerfed.

Why would it get nerfed? It work exactly as intended-
Stop any physical move, stumble, and hit

 

[Idon]

Until you trigger your enemy's revenge value and they blow up your comparatively small life bar. There's no super drive forms, summons, Curaga or park rides to save you here either.

What I see is a return to the more methodical style of KH1, where proper timing of strikes, blocks and spells to intercept attacks and exploit weaknesses is more rewarding overall than mashing.

Yeah, he plays more like KH1 sora than 2 and 3 and I vastly prefer those versions of him lol.

I'm glad he's in, but the slower pace and hyper-floatiness and emphasis on punishing the opponent is not what I expected/wanted. Really, from hours of KH2 and 3 org fights... I expected Mythra with consecutive attacks, but I imagine that'd be... broken at a fundamental level.

Why would it get nerfed? It work exactly as intended-
Stop any physical move, stumble, and hit

Rather, they should buff Banjo so he's a good character outside of his YOLO side B.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Perhaps not, perhaps I just have to never use that move against Sora. Which sucks

 

[Idon]

Perhaps not, perhaps I just have to never use that move against Sora. Which sucks

Yeah a lot of characters in this game have moves that are "Yeah so basically you never get to use this attack unless you catch them off guard."

Suppose that's just part of Smash Bros as a series.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Yeah a lot of characters in this game have moves that are "Yeah so basically you never get to use this attack unless you catch them off guard."

Suppose that's just part of Smash Bros as a series.

Wonderwing is already a high risk move at higher level play If you block or foxtrot away fast enough, you can greatly punish Banjo, so a true Banjo main would never just spam Wonderwing, but the fact that a counter can now work against it for the first time (second time? Need to double check that on Mii Swordfighter) threw me off. Feels odd.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wonderwing is already a high risk move at higher level play If you block or foxtrot away fast enough, you can greatly punish Banjo, so a true Banjo main would never just spam Wonderwing, but the fact that a counter can now work against it for the first time (second time? Need to double check that on Mii Swordfighter) threw me off. Feels odd.

At the same time, isn't it odd how other counters suddenly can't actually counter a certain move? They're already quite risky too, hell, Sephirith can even get punished for landing his counter if he uses it on a move with reflector properties while we have 3 characters who can reflect with their counters. At this point it's part of knowing an MU

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Maesuma TOP 6

1. ProtoBanham
2. Atelier
3. HERO
4. Yoshidora
5. Shuton
5. HIKARU
7. Sigma
7. Tea
9. Lv. 1
9. Injelly
9. kept
9. Komugiko
13. Akakikusu
13. Manzoku
13. Jogibu
13. Masashi
17. Surasura
17. Hanadon
17. KEN
17. Rido
17. Chichibu Travel
17. Kameme
17. Toura
17. ZAKI

I think it's fair to say that in Japan is as popular as in the West. There was 3 of them in top 16 alone with another one getting 49th. Probably will be the character with the biggest rise on OrionStats for this week.

Ngl though, Proto seems super scary. It's like some players rn in Japan have an answer for the Min Min, only to get beaten by the Lucina like we saw with Atelier's Wolf or at Seibugeki 8 with Eim, but it can also happen vice versa too like at the set against Zackray at Kagaribi 4. This dual main combination seems so tricky to deal with and shout-outs to HERO for putting Proto in losers in the first place.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

At the same time, isn't it odd how other counters suddenly can't actually counter a certain move? They're already quite risky too, hell, Sephirith can even get punished for landing his counter if he uses it on a move with reflector properties while we have 3 characters who can reflect with their counters. At this point it's part of knowing an MU

The counters work in that they negate the attack, but just don’t retaliate so no one comes out on top

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The counters work in that they negate the attack, but just don’t retaliate so no one comes out on top

That's the point I'm trying to make, one move's design is forced to fail for the other to work, counters are meant to retaliate, not negate, meaning this interaction will never get changed just like every other counter losing to Wonderwing, Revenge losing to Minecart or Scintilla losing to Min Min's up smash or the Mother boys' forward smash

 

[PK Gaming]

Sora will be good

Kazuya is still a gimmick

And if the game were to be left off as is balance wise... well I wouldn't be thrilled, but I'd be more than satisfied

 

[Cheryl~]

To recap Maesuma, yet another ProtoBanHam W is in the books. (Who would've thought?) But I think the real big breakout of this event was Yoshidora, who went on a tear in winners beating Shuton's Olimar and Pyra/Mythra and then getting a huge upset over Tea's Pac-Man, and then in losers he beat Shuton AGAIN (this time just the Olimar) before losing to ProtoBanHam for 4th place. Yoshidora's improvement over the past couple of months has been really interesting to see, proving that he can duke it out with the best of Japan's competition. It also means that Yoshi, a character who was known in the past game for stagnating heavily as years went on, is still continuing to see success in bigger tournaments. I think Yoshidora has a claim to be the best active Yoshi currently, his results and wins are better than Myles and Suarez for sure, and Meme and Ron haven't really been competing much.

also, Tea's secondary Kazuya actually saw some action in his losers set versus HIKARU, except he uh... lost to Donkey Kong as Kazuya. The first game of that set is pretty heartbreaking too, Tea was getting platcamped on PS2... by Donkey Kong. Really shows how Kazuya's poor jumpsquat and shorthop is likely to screw him over as the meta progresses.

 

[NairWizard]

Drive-by current meta observation: optimized advantage state makes neutral more important, not less.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Drive-by current meta observation: optimized advantage state makes neutral more important, not less.

My personal opinion is that characters with all punish will suffer (Luigi, Falco, Kazuya) and all characters with all neutral will do better, but still not be top tier. It's the character with both the neutral and punish that are top tier.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I told y'all that the bad jumpsquat would be Kazuya's Achilles heel. I told y'all such a thing would likely be enough to drop him a whole tier. Looks like I was right on the money, yet again xD