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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    584

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
Didn't Yoshidora Top 5 at Kagaribi 4? :ultyoshi:'s been messing people up post-quarantine for a while now, it's just that he's always been a bit "under the radar" in terms of Smash talk lol.

Also, while BassMage didn't place great technically, the upset against Kola is nothing to scoff at, especially considering that most people have been considering Kola to be a potential Top 15 candidate for a while now.
 

Gleam

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
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Oh and to add more to the list.

We now have at least 4 :ultsteve:s in the rankings.

Onin-49th
Eden-49th
Jake-25th
yonni: 9th

Which means we also have a Steve in the Top 10. You know we weren't too sure how Steve was doing, but with numbers like these, he might not be too shabby right now.
 

Goodstyle_4

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
278
Good stuff to Loaf for getting into top 16... Unfortunate that he ran into Olimar, who is IMO Wario's very worst match up.

I'm glad Wario got some rep even though Gluto couldn't make it.
 

Cheryl~

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446
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Very strange, yet also kinda normal-looking top 8. Excited to see what happens tomorrow.

Also, on the topic of Orion Stats, Luigi is another character that's gonna get a huge boost in the rankings by Elegant's amazing performance, after dropping a few spots to 33rd.
 

Thinkaman

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Did Dabuz actually play anyone besides Olimar, other than losing to yonni? I didn't see it. Also didn't see Lui$'s Fox in what I caught.

Riptide peak character performance: (probably missed a few, not counting certain losses)

Top 8 :ultpyra::ultbyleth::ultgnw::ultdiddy::ultluigi::ultolimar::ultroy::ultpalutena::ultcloud:
9th :ultjoker::ultsteve::ultmewtwo::ultrob::ultwiifittrainer::ultpeach:
13th :ultwario::ultpacman::ultyoshi::ultyounglink:
17th :ultfalco::ultmario::ultlucina::ultsonic::ultbowser::ultfalcon:
25th :ultwolf::ultsnake::ultgreninja::ultpokemontrainer::ultsephiroth:
33rd :ultness::ultganondorf::ultrichter::ultduckhunt::ultshulk::ultzss:
49th :ultjigglypuff::ultsamus::ultbowserjr::ultcorrin:
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
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Location
Canada
Mkleo's character crisis is genuinely one of the most fascinating things I've ever seen. He's basically walked away from Joker and settled on Byleth, purely out of passion for the latter. I'm sure he still mains Joker but it's clear he's somewhat fallen out of love for the character

The Aegis duo is basically his insurance

Tweek is probably going to sweep again
 

Trunks159

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Mkleo's character crisis is genuinely one of the most fascinating things I've ever seen. He's basically walked away from Joker and settled on Byleth, purely out of passion for the latter. I'm sure he still mains Joker but it's clear he's somewhat fallen out of love for the character

The Aegis duo is basically his insurance

Tweek is probably going to sweep again
What are the chances of Mkleo going :ultmetaknight: vs Tweek's :ultdiddy:? He's seen success against ZeRo's :4diddy: in past so I wouldn't be super surprised to see it.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
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Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,342
Character representation in top 64 of Riptide

EulGJcQ.png

Despite :ultrob: 's results being stagnant last weekend at Hermes, he is once again the most popular character. :ultfalco: is also surprisingly popular. (The Falco Agenda is real?)
 

Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
951
Location
Azeroth
Mkleo's character crisis is genuinely one of the most fascinating things I've ever seen. He's basically walked away from Joker and settled on Byleth, purely out of passion for the latter. I'm sure he still mains Joker but it's clear he's somewhat fallen out of love for the character

The Aegis duo is basically his insurance

Tweek is probably going to sweep again
He's probably walked away from Joker out of pressure more than anything. The Arsene mechanic is probably kinda psychologically taxing for the user.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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You'd think there would be at least one Pikachu (even if ESAM doesn't compete) in Top 64 if he's truly the best character.
I mean, there's also not a Pac-Man player in the tournament because neither Tea or Sinji went and only one Joker player, some people consider Pac-Man top 10 and Joker top 1. I get what you're saying, but I think there just weren't any top Pikachu players attending the actual event as ESAM, ShinyMark and DM didn't go.
 

Lacrimosa

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Mar 31, 2019
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I mean, there's also not a Pac-Man player in the tournament because neither Tea or Sinji went and only one Joker player, some people consider Pac-Man top 10 and Joker top 1. I get what you're saying, but I think there just weren't any top Pikachu players attending the actual event as ESAM, ShinyMark and DM didn't go.
Pac-Man may be also considered top-tier but he isn't "widely" considered the best, if anyone thinks he is.

But even if a char is hard to pick up, if that character is a meta pick then there should be much more players actually playing him.
This topic has been chewed to death, but performances like this make it really hard to believe that this rat is as good as it's made up to be.
 

PK Gaming

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You'd think there would be at least one Pikachu (even if ESAM doesn't compete) in Top 64 if he's truly the best character.
Almost as if by nearly every definition Pikachu isn't top tier and certainly not meta relevant in any significant regard



Though I'm sure we'll continue to see smash fans parrot the same "Pikachu busted" gobbledegook even though I'm pretty sure top players only put the rat in top 3 to downplay their own main when making tier lists
 

SKX31

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Feb 22, 2019
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Pac-Man may be also considered top-tier but he isn't "widely" considered the best, if anyone thinks he is.

But even if a char is hard to pick up, if that character is a meta pick then there should be much more players actually playing him.
This topic has been chewed to death, but performances like this make it really hard to believe that this rat is as good as it's made up to be.
Almost as if by nearly every definition Pikachu isn't top tier and certainly not meta relevant in any significant regard

Though I'm sure we'll continue to see smash fans parrot the same "Pikachu busted" gobbledegook even though I'm pretty sure top players only put the rat in top 3 to downplay their own main when making tier lists

Then again, it's a very finicky topic. Like Shulk Pikachu's theorycrafting rests quite a bit on percieved potential. No, neither character have a large playerbase, but both characters have some very prominent mains, have some often-talked about strengths and we have to remember that a comprehensive Ultimate MU chart is not going to be feasible. Considering those factors I'm not surprised that both characters are ranked so highly.

Yes, we have to remember that ESAM is one of the most technical Smash players out there if not the most. He's one of the few that mastered the Quick Attack locks back in Brawl, for instance. Crucially that technical playstyle fits with the "Top players are going to be masters at execution - if MKLeo picked up Pika he'd be crushing people" assumption held by so many within the scene. Which is one main reason why - I suspect - that has spread. Does this mean that ESAM might miss out on certain aspects? Yes, he does: one of ESAM's personal hangups is that he assumes people will lean towards playing that technical playstyle. But I'm betting that his words wouldn't have spread nearly as fast if he didn't perform well enough to rank within the top 15 last PGRU - lending some percieved credence to the technical-centric arguments.

On the other hand, I feel that those that instantly discount Pikachu's placement as "ESAM propaganda" are using reductive arguments. Yeah, the character's not common at all, but whenever a notable Pika main does show up they tend to do pretty well. The character still has a comparable normalized OrionRank with :ultgnw: and :ultpacman: , which is nothing to scoff at.

Long story short, while I can see the argument for Pikachu not being the best character in the game the character's still incredibly dangerous - and I feel that dismissing the character outright is being premature.
 
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Gleam

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654
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Pikachu (and many others) really fall under an aspect of the difference of skill levels necessary to take a character where they are. Many character can reach the same goal level, but many have differing levels of skill and technicality needed to get there. There's a reason we see so many Palutenas because not only does she clearly have what it takes to be Top Tier, but she's also probably one of the easiest characters to use, which then increases her own popularity.


I suppose in some case, you could make the argument that if at least one player can consistently push a character to specific meta, that is proof of the potential that character holds. The only real problem is just getting everyone else to emulate the success proven by another player. It's why you see lists putting Byleth in High Tier, despite the fact that other than Leo, I don't know anybody else who does jack with the character.

But the thing is, while people will gladly claim that Pikachu is Top because of ESAM or Byleth is High because of Leo.

If you were to ask what tier :ultzelda: was in, many would say Mid (at best) and many would even say low. Despite the fact that we have had Zeldas get High Tier results. If I asked the same thing about :ultridley:, the response may not be as negative as I've seen with Zelda sometimes. But I doubt I'd see anyone putting him higher than Mid Tier.

Despite, again, the fact that we have had Ridley's getting High Tier results. I think there is far too much hypocrisy among players.

You can't say one character is this tier because of the actions of a specific player but then deny the actions of another player. And while I use Ridley and Zelda as an example, there are many characters who have players doing 1-2 tiers above the common ground of the character.
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,925
Mkleo's character crisis is genuinely one of the most fascinating things I've ever seen. He's basically walked away from Joker and settled on Byleth, purely out of passion for the latter. I'm sure he still mains Joker but it's clear he's somewhat fallen out of love for the character

The Aegis duo is basically his insurance

Tweek is probably going to sweep again
I don't think it's just falling out of love with Joker. The meta also isn't super kind to Joker right now. Aegis seems to be a losing matchup by Leo's own admission, and both Dabuz and Leo think that Min Min wins too. Combine that with Tweek having picked up Diddy--that matchup isn't just hard for Joker, it's beyond hard. Joker's hitboxes would normally struggle to beat characters with small hurtboxes, like Pichu and Pikachu, but Joker manages to make it work because of Eiha. However, you can't really Eiha a shielding Diddy; you're going to get banana tossed into a billion percent, so you have a short character whom you can't even pressure at midrange. And Diddy's edgeguards on Joker are comically free. It's a winnable matchup, but hard to do against a player as polished as Tweek.

The landscape for Joker is worse today than it was a year ago, and at Frostbite 2020 it was already looking like Joker had some tough matchups like Sonic (the ROB and Mario matchups didn't look super convincing either).

Leo mentioned something at Summit about liking Byleth more than Joker because Joker doesn't have good out of shield options, but that's only part of the story.

Post-nerf Joker sometimes struggles to close out stocks until 115-130, whereas you see Byleth taking them out at 70% regularly. In addition, Byleth doesn't get reversal'd in advantage state because Byleth's advantage state is the size of a semi truck--e.g., if you're trying to juggle with Joker, you can get n-aired, but good luck to anyone trying to n-air through a Byleth up-air!

If you really want to make Joker work in this meta, you have to be really committed to him and finesse through his losing matchups, but it doesn't feel like Leo is really committed enough to enable that kind of finesse. There is also an underlining tension here, because if Leo loses with Joker, people are going to say that he's no longer the best, that he's washed, etc, whereas if he loses the way he's playing now, there's at least an asterisk next to Tweek's new title. That's a lot of pressure, even for someone with nerves of steel.

Mythra is really not a Leo character, since she has little safe shield pressure, and Pyra seems less and less compelling the deeper we get into the meta (most top tiers just run circles around her in neutral). It's no wonder he's switching to Byleth a lot--Byleth's slow, methodical spacing game fits Leo like a glove. If Byleth were a better character, Leo would never need Aegis.

This would never happen, but I'd really like to see Leo switch to Sephiroth or Min Min if he isn't going to go back to Joker. A Leo Min Min would absolutely be the biggest threat in the world by a significant margin--even more than Leo Joker ever was. Min Min has tons of safe shield pressure tools and plays a compelling midrange game, while avoiding reversals better than anyone in the game and having a rich advantage state with ledgetraps and edgeguards. The sword-like spacing properties of close-on-shield n-airs and f-airs/b-airs are just tantalizingly suited to Leo.

Also, just want to add: don't take it for granted that Leo is going to beat Maister or Sparg0 today. They're both totally capable of wiping the floor with him with his current situation. Fundamentals only get you so far once your opponent learns the matchup.
 
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PK Gaming

Smash Lord
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Location
Canada
I don't think it's just falling out of love with Joker. The meta also isn't super kind to Joker right now. Aegis seems to be a losing matchup by Leo's own admission, and both Dabuz and Leo think that Min Min wins too. Combine that with Tweek having picked up Diddy--that matchup isn't just hard for Joker, it's beyond hard. Joker's hitboxes would normally struggle to beat characters with small hurtboxes, like Pichu and Pikachu, but Joker manages to make it work because of Eiha. However, you can't really Eiha a shielding Diddy; you're going to get banana tossed into a billion percent, so you have a short character whom you can't even pressure at midrange. And Diddy's edgeguards on Joker are comically free. It's a winnable matchup, but hard to do against a player as polished as Tweek.

The landscape for Joker is worse today than it was a year ago, and at Frostbite 2020 it was already looking like Joker had some tough matchups like Sonic (the ROB and Mario matchups didn't look super convincing either).

Leo mentioned something at Summit about liking Byleth more than Joker because Joker doesn't have good out of shield options, but that's only part of the story.

Post-nerf Joker sometimes struggles to close out stocks until 115-130, whereas you see Byleth taking them out at 70% regularly. In addition, Byleth doesn't get reversal'd in advantage state because Byleth's advantage state is the size of a semi truck--e.g., if you're trying to juggle with Joker, you can get n-aired, but good luck to anyone trying to n-air through a Byleth up-air!

If you really want to make Joker work in this meta, you have to be really committed to him and finesse through his losing matchups, but it doesn't feel like Leo is really committed enough to enable that kind of finesse. There is also an underlining tension here, because if Leo loses with Joker, people are going to say that he's no longer the best, that he's washed, etc, whereas if he loses the way he's playing now, there's at least an asterisk next to Tweek's new title. That's a lot of pressure, even for someone with nerves of steel.

Mythra is really not a Leo character, since she has little safe shield pressure, and Pyra seems less and less compelling the deeper we get into the meta (most top tiers just run circles around her in neutral). It's no wonder he's switching to Byleth a lot--Byleth's slow, methodical spacing game fits Leo like a glove. If Byleth were a better character, Leo would never need Aegis.

This would never happen, but I'd really like to see Leo switch to Sephiroth or Min Min if he isn't going to go back to Joker. A Leo Min Min would absolutely be the biggest threat in the world by a significant margin--even more than Leo Joker ever was. Min Min has tons of safe shield pressure tools and plays a compelling midrange game, while avoiding reversals better than anyone in the game and having a rich advantage state with ledgetraps and edgeguards. The sword-like spacing properties of close-on-shield n-airs and f-airs/b-airs are just tantalizingly suited to Leo.

Also, just want to add: don't take it for granted that Leo is going to beat Maister or Sparg0 today. They're both totally capable of wiping the floor with him with his current situation. Fundamentals only get you so far once your opponent learns the matchup.
Excellently put, and I really like the observation on Mythra not really jelling with Leo's playstyle. I couldn't put it into words until now, so thanks for that. And yeah, if Byleth were a stronger character Mkleo would be running a train on the metagame right now.

But yeah I don't think anyone can credibly say Joker is the best character in the game right now. He's debatably not even top 5, though still solid since like you said, Joker can finesse through bad matchups due to being a very momentum based character. You could also probably make the argument that he's legitimately one of the most fair top tier characters smash has ever had too, lmao.

Diddy on the other hand, like I said last week, is just busted. This isn't bias speaking, I plainly think that character is absurdly good right now.
 
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Thinkaman

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I find the argument that Joker's meta was disproportionately set back by the pandemic to be compelling. Frankly, that fact just seems sort of obviously true on its face.

It's an unknown we have to accept like any other. I could see Joker being (still) #1 at the end of the day; it seems about as possible as any alternative to me.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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I find the argument that Joker's meta was disproportionately set back by the pandemic to be compelling. Frankly, that fact just seems sort of obviously true on its face.

It's an unknown we have to accept like any other. I could see Joker being (still) #1 at the end of the day; it seems about as possible as any alternative to me.
The argument is compelling but Zackray has still been having as much success with the character as ever. I think Joker just seems worse because Leo’s not winning almost every major with him anymore.
 

WatwatBreton

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 27, 2021
Messages
33
Not sure I'd completely write out joker tbh, he still performs pretty well (#5 Orion rank as I check rn, and I guess that doesn't count mkleo since he barely played him lately?). The character left pre-pandemic meta in a "he's really hecking good"' state and since then got only a slap on the wrist with the eiha nerf, while fellow other top tiers wario/palu/zss got hit harder.

His potentially dubious matchups against some of DLC 2 is an interesting point though (although he probably does decent against kazuya and seph), and so is pandemic affecting him harder than others. Part of me wonders how much mkleo's current doubt towards joker just stems from the fact he played byleth for the last year and a half lol - that's one way to grow attached to a character.

On the topic of #1 though, I gotta say I find the trend of top players switching/having a pocket aegis kinda worrying lol. You can also count that on their low skillfloor + having an archetype that's very popular in general (as opposed to someone like sephiroth), but this kind of hype definitely reminds me of prepatch joker and s4 cloud/bayo. Especially cloud, since they both share the low skill floor, the "swordie that's gonna outclass most other swordies" and "apparently very good in doubles" trait. Not saying Pythra will be as bad as these 3 ofc the hype could die down, but I would keep a close eye on their performance in the near future lol.

On the topic of DLC 2 characters, how's sephiroth doing? After his release pros seemed to have engaged in a contest of "who can rank sephiroth the highest in his lists" (looking at you tweek) and now that offline is going back he seems ... fine? Just got double 25th at riptide, #20 at orion stats, got a few mains there and there but nothing comparable to the #1 offline murder machine some people were expecting.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
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To be fair, isn't "fine" kinda what you want to shoot for when making a new fighter? That said, I'm not sure Ultimate will ever have a definitive number one. Usually those are only agreed upon because it's so ludicrously obvious and even for a time I think there was debate between Fox and Falcon in Melee before Fox took the crown. In Ultimate, however, no one fighter dominates, and opinions are still fractured on it. Even if there is a number one, I doubt it will be as important as it ever was in Melee, Brawl, and 4.
 

The_Bookworm

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3,201
On the topic of DLC 2 characters, how's sephiroth doing? After his release pros seemed to have engaged in a contest of "who can rank sephiroth the highest in his lists" (looking at you tweek) and now that offline is going back he seems ... fine? Just got double 25th at riptide, #20 at orion stats, got a few mains there and there but nothing comparable to the #1 offline murder machine some people were expecting.
There was only one 25th at Riptide, that being Ned.
I don't know if Tweek ever used Sephiroth so far in this tourney. Maybe very early on, but idk.

Usually those are only agreed upon because it's so ludicrously obvious and even for a time I think there was debate between Fox and Falcon in Melee before Fox took the crown.
I have.... never heard of that.
I don't think Falcon in Melee was ever a #1 character contender at all in Melee's lifetime.
 

The_Bookworm

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Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,201
Riptide (1024 Entrants)

1st: MkLeo:ultbyleth::ultpyra:
2nd: Tweek:ultdiddy:
3rd: Sparg0:ultpyra::ultcloud:
4th: Elegant:ultluigi:
5th: Maister:ultgnw:
5th: Goblin:ultroy:
7th: Lui$:ultpalutena::ultfox:
7th: Dabuz:ultalph::ultminmin
9th: LingLing:ultpeach:
9th: WaDi:ultmewtwo:
9th: naitosharp:ultjoker::ultzss:
9th: yonni:ultsteve:
13th: Kobe:ultyounglink:
13th: Myles:ultyoshi:
13th: loaf:ultwario:
13th: Epic_Gabriel:ultrob:
17th: Fatality:ultfalcon:
17th: LeoN:ultbowser:
17th: Anathema:ultrob:
17th: TonyZTank:ultsonic:
17th: Tilde:ultfalco:
17th: Yoomoo:ultmario::ultlucina:
17th: MuteAce:ultpeach::ultpalutena:
17th: Kurama:ultmario:
25th: Jake:ultalex:
25th: BigBoss:ultrob:
25th: Pandarian:ultpokemontrainerf::ultwolf:
25th: Ned:ultsephiroth:
25th: Zinoto:ultdiddy:
25th: Stroder:ultgreninja::ultmario:
25th: Ronnichu:ultsnake:
25th: ZD:ultfox::ultwolf:
33rd: T3 DOM:ultrichter:
33rd: MVD:ultsnake:
33rd: Darkshad:ultshulk::ultken:
33rd: SKITTLES!!:ultyounglink:
33rd: Wisdom:ultduckhunt:
33rd: Marss:ultzss:
33rd: Ismon:ultwario::ultfalco:
33rd: Zomba:ultrob:
33rd: Stocktaker69:ultwolf::ultpalutena:
33rd: Myran:ultolimar:
33rd: ATATA:ultness:
33rd: Rickles:ultganondorf:
33rd: Kofi:ultfalco:
33rd: Pellonian:ultfalco:
33rd: DRO:ultyoshi:
33rd: Toast:ultyounglink:
49th: Yoda Cage:ultlarry:
49th: Onin:ultsteve:
49th: Niko:ultsephiroth:
49th: Chag:ultpalutena:
49th: Juanpi:ultpalutena:
49th: Geist:ultbayonetta:
49th: ApolloKage:ultsnake:
49th: varun:ultwiifittrainer:
49th: Quark:ultgreninja::ultgnw:
49th: SHADIC:ultcorrinf:
49th: Cosmos:ultpyra:
49th: IcyMist:ultsamus:
49th: Eden:ultsteve:
49th: Sogoodpop:ultwiifittrainer:
49th: Grayson:ultrob:
49th: BassMage:ultjigglypuff:
65th: Seth:ultroy:
65th: Zie:ultpalutena:
65th: Jakal:ultwolf:
65th: Sytonix:ultken:
65th: Phuzix:ultsheik:
65th: Shadow_PR:ultbayonetta1::ultpalutena:
65th: Atomsk:ultkingdedede:
65th: BlazingPasta:ultpeach:
65th: Beast:ultpokemontrainer:
65th: Syrup:ultness:
65th: Luma:ultrob::ultdiddy:
65th: Dew2:ultrob:
65th: sebayee:ultgnw:
65th: Meden:ulthero:
65th: Aaron:ultdiddy:
65th: A Coward:ultrobin:
65th: Dragneel:ultpalutena:
65th: Uncivil ninja:ultshulk:
65th: Vivi:ultlucina:
65th: Colorondo8:ultinkling:
65th: Clique:ultyounglink::ultwolf:
65th: Puppeh:ultpokemontrainerf:
65th: Skilly:ulthero3:
65th: SP Tatsu:ultsnake:
65th: Mj:ultrob:
65th: Rivers:ultdiddy:
65th: Skitz:ultwario:
65th: Ravenking:ultike:
65th: Doorstop:ultzss:
65th: Dietsoda:ultcloud:
65th: Kyros:ultyounglink:
65th: Kola:ultroy:


Analysis coming later. Gotta study as I have classes tomorrow.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Messages
1,681
MkLeo basically made Byleth a part of his style and persona unlike anything I have really seen in the history of Smash. Many top-level can take Melee Fox, Brawl MK or Smash 4 Bayo and Cloyd because they are the strongest characters of their respective games that have power and jank that puts them above the rest.

But Now. MKLeo took made a character that has clear flaws and weaknesses in the core gameplay system. Weaknesses that nearly everyone though would keep him/her at the top level. But goddamn MKLeo MAKES them viable though a combination of talent and sheer force of will. MKLeo has made a character no one expected much of entirely his own and then cleans house with them

After Riptide its safe to Say MKLeo IS Byelths main of choice and he IS their meta. I do not think any other player will be able to bring to wring out every last drop of Byleth's potential than MKLeo
 
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SwagGuy99

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Dec 28, 2016
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NairWizard

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For the people who think that MKLeo won this tournament with a mid tier--maybe you should re-evaluate Byleth. I think there was in fact a world where Byleth was low or mid tier, but this is not that world, and I'd like to go over why.

First of all, let's get this out of the way--looking at those sets and thinking that Byleth-Diddy is an OK matchup for Byleth is a shallow conclusion (like thinking that Richter-Luigi isn't that bad just because Elegant beat Dom). Yes, Leo won, but he wasn't reacting in the neutral--those were predictions. Leo was predicting all those monkey flips, dash d-tilts, banana tosses, everything. When we talk about matchup ratios we don't assume that one player has a significant read on the other, but this was absolutely the case here. Several times, I saw Leo actually initiate retreating full hop 40 frames or more in advance of Tweek starting the Monkey Flip--because that's what it takes for Byleth to position properly for the matchup. Those sets were an incredible display of skill and careful study of the opponent, but should be viewed within that context.

Second, despite the bad Diddy matchup, I think Byleth is somewhere in the top 20 characters.

The best thing about Byleth is advantage state that you just can't contest. You're not fighting back against a Byleth up-airing you, you're not reversaling him after he up-bs you (you just have to get away), you're not doing anything but airdodging and fastfalling when he ledgetrumps you. Byleth in advantage just gets to run train for free. It's similar to Sephiroth and Min Min.

But it gets even better! Sephiroth and Min Min have a hard time killing you directly with their neutral tools. They have to get you into a bad position first. But not Byleth. Byleth can kill you from a ledgetrap or an edgeguard just like those other guys can, but Byleth can also get a confirm. n-air to dash attack, d-tilt to up-air, up-b to imagination (even with proper DI), up-smash OOS on a whiff--Byleth has Ganon-level kill power, but confirms his kills from safe neutral moves, much like Diddy and Sheik.

The second best thing about Byleth is disadvantage state. Yes, you read that correctly. This is something that I think Byleth didn't quite have when he was released, but that he's actually really hard to keep trapped at the ledge and to edgeguard. The up-b and side-b buffs gave Byleth legitimate stalling tools at ledge. Part of the reason that Leo had a chance against Tweek was that Byleth just ignored most of Diddy's ledgetrapping with various mixups. Those few frames make a huge difference and I noticed that sometimes Tweek was a hair off from being able to react or prevent Leo from simply snapping to ledge. Ledge is such a relatively safe position for Byleth that Byleth can escape a juggle attempt by drifting offstage and up-bing to ledge. It's really actually pretty hard to edgeguard Byleth's new frame-10 aerial up-b and side-b is "only" 62 frames given how huge it is.

The up-b buff was also relevant for giving Byleth a scary OOS besides n-air, of course, and the neutral merit isn't lost on me, but the advantage and disadvantage are really what enable Byleth to shine as much as he does in Leo's hands.

This is the one time where I don't have much to say about the neutral. In neutral, Leo just mixes up different timings and spacings of n-air up close and spaces f-air/b-air when he can get away with it. That's really all there is to the neutral for this character. The depth isn't there, but then again, it doesn't need to be--the risk is low enough and the reward is high enough that Byleth could be even worse in neutral, as slow as molasses, and still 3-stock Tweek.

I mean, Byleth is doing 20-40% per neutral win, killing you pre-100%, and then limiting damage taken to 15-20% lower range, 30-40% upper range, without getting edgeguarded or f-smashed at ledge for early kills, finally dying at 120%. That is an insane risk:reward ratio. If those numbers don't pass your "possibly top 20" smell test, what does?

Leo's playing a good character--there's no doubt about that. The question really was, "is he skilled enough to overcome Byleth's few really bad matchups?" And the answer, to even my surprise, is yes, he is.
 
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Idon

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gsmVoiD recently made a tier list after the conclusion of Riptide.
gsmVoiD said:
As you can see, quite a lot of hot takes and unconventional wisdom. He describes the tier list as "A tier list that focuses on what good characters can do against other good characters" or something along those lines.

All that said, my only opinion on it is that I'm glad someone finally did the 2 things I've been itching to see top level players do for a while, remove Pikachu from his completely unwarranted uncontested #1 position, and contest the oft peddled rhetoric that "Marth is good, it's just Lucina outclasses him."

Also earlier I heard discussion of Joker not being top 5... I have to say that's a wild concept that I'm not at all on board with. He might've taken a massive hit due to online era and MKLeo's shift towards Byleth, but he still remains at the top of the game with slap-on-the-wrist nerfs that don't largely affect his gameplan.
 
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