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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Gleam

Smash Ace
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Burlington, NC
Oh boy, another Tier List that seems like the person has no idea what is actually going on in the meta.

Donkey Kong once again in "Bad" though he has understandably fallen quite a bit within Orion, but I highly doubt any part of that went into this list.

Zelda, a character who just got the Top 20s in a 900+ man tournament and has routinely stayed within the #40s of Orion, bad apparently.

And now we have :ultpiranha:,, someone who can barely get out of the Bottom 5 of Orion, is now High Tier.

:ultbyleth::ultbylethf: (Byleth) also in high tier. This character, hasn't done jackity poop, outside of the selective few times Leo uses them. But I guess the moment Leo does something that automatically brings a character up 1-2 tiers.

:ultkazuya:We've got Kazuya in high tier which, unlike the others, I'll let some leeway here. Kazuya is still a very new character with more time to expand. But don't get me wrong, the "CURRENT" Kazuya, would probably bare reach Mid Tier and even some of his prominent supporters like "Riddles" give multiple indication of the flaws this character has.

:ultlucina: as potentially the 5th best character in the game? I mean I guess that's not as wonky as having :ultfalcon:, a guy who jumped up "OVER 25 RANKS" since the end of Orion Phase 03 to hit a "TOP 10 ORION CHARACTER, in Mid Tier.
 

Nah

Smash Champion
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Messages
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was there any sort of explanation given for some of the placements?

I don't feel like there's much reason to still insist that Lucy should go in the topmost tier or to think that Byleth is high tier
 

Lacrimosa

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I wonder...why do they give their viewers such a twisted view on the matter.
It also doesn't help that they don't respect AndresFN in the slightest.

Kinda "mad" about such videos as they offer very little insight and are misleading at worst.
 

SKX31

Smash Master
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I wonder...why do they give their viewers such a twisted view on the matter.
It also doesn't help that they don't respect AndresFN in the slightest.

Kinda "mad" about such videos as they offer very little insight and are misleading at worst.
Beyond "clickbait" (which is more effective than I'd want to believe) I have to assume that they're hard-investing on giving their signed players / commentators as much airtime and make sure people remember them. Them not respecting Andres makes it really bad though.

Still, while I haven't watched much of the vid that title is already horrendous. Especially when Gluto after that loss made a really good LB run - Myollnir, Charlie, Kome, LeoN and Ken in succession, losing just 3 games in 5 LB sets. And he was just one game away from a bracket reset vs. Tea. It feels as though Panda rushed to get the content out ASAP for the tier-list related clickbait.

Also, the momentum swings Gluto got were extremely noticeable since the crowd reacted hardcore and added momentum to him. Sure, the crowd was small likely due to restrictions*...

But the stadium they played Top 8 in has a max capacity of 50K spectators*, since it's Lille's home stadium. The reigning French champions in football / soccer, so this stadium is up there. Assuming a more-or-less normal environment Temple would not have needed to sold out. A crowd of say 2K - 10K cheering for Gluttony would've added a much more pressure: that I don't believe most Smash pros are accustomed to. Stadiums can get really loud, especially if the home favorite (Gluto in this case) gains momentum. The only supermajor venue that's can come within that range (at least as far as in-person spectators go) is EVO's at Mandalay Bay. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Still, in the scenario where Temple had sold out... oh boy. And I believe that's possible when other e-sports like Dota 2 and LoL have sold out similar-capacity arenas.

*(Edit: If it was the stadium that hosted the pools and Top 64 Bracket - which it kinda looks like from a certain twitter post... well it wasn't the best choice needless to say. It kinda looks like they hosted those in the arena corridors - and those can easily get cramped. Wonder if they couldn't have spread the pool competitions out a bit.)
 
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Nobie

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WaDi sees Mewtwo as a high tier, but more importantly as a character he wants to push on his quest to achieve a decent level of success (PGR ranked).


What I'm about to say is old hat, and even came up in the Smash 4 days, but I think having players whose goal is to push their characters as far as they can go is an important part of the competitive ecosystem. The fact that not everyone thinks the same way or has the same goals just adds to the complexity of Smash and fighting games as social phenomena.
 
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Kokiden

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
782
sorry dude if you cant be happy with the job the balancing team has done with this game you just need to get away from fighting games in general. It doesnt get much better than smash ultimate from a balancing perspective.
...I see.

The roster is great, but the balancing isn't. This just seems like one of those type of responses that are said because it's the right thing to say. I don't agree and think it could be much better. I always have thought this, even long before most of the DLC characters came out.

It just seems with the latest DLC, the balancing is getting worse and worse.

I guess this is just an unpopular opinion and people won't like me for it.
 

Arthur97

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Jun 7, 2016
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Just look at the level of variety you get in Ultimate compared to other Smash games (Melee in particular). That's with an absolutely massive roster. Some mid tiers in past games probably wish they were as good as Ultimate low tiers. They game is incredibly well balanced all things considered. Now, if you don't like the style, that's one thing, but the balance is hard to really deny.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Just look at the level of variety you get in Ultimate compared to other Smash games (Melee in particular). That's with an absolutely massive roster. Some mid tiers in past games probably wish they were as good as Ultimate low tiers. They game is incredibly well balanced all things considered. Now, if you don't like the style, that's one thing, but the balance is hard to really deny.
I'd argue Melee has more variety in character choices then Smash 4 and especially Brawl. In fact I'd say it was the best balanced Smash game before Ultimate came out. Feel like representation of :foxmelee: has certainly lowered compared to what the peak was, and I feel like the top tiers are rather close together in terms of balance, it's just that the low/bottom tiers were garbage.
 
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The_Bookworm

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I'd argue Melee has more variety in character choices then Smash 4 and especially Brawl. In fact I'd say it was the best balanced Smash game before Ultimate came out. Feel like representation of :foxmelee: has certainly lowered compared to what the peak was, and I feel like the top tiers are rather close together in terms of balance, it's just that the low/bottom tiers were garbage.
Melee balance is strange.
It does feel like the game relatively balanced around the top/high tiers.
However, once you get below the top 10, then everything just kinda falls apart completely when it comes to game balance, both in character strength and statistical tournament usage, even moreso once you leave the top 13.
Fox usage has fallen off since his peak, but he is still one of the most statistically dominant characters in the series. Not as much as Brawl MK, but still very much so.

Brawl has the most dominant top tiers, with MK being the most centralizing character in the series.
At the same time, I feel that Brawl has a much more diverse mid tier that has more metagame presence/impact than anything Melee's mid tiers can possibly dream of.

So it is not necessarily cut-and-dry.


Speaking of which, I have meaning to say this for a long time, but I wonder what would happen if we return back to SSB4 and the meta would change as a result of being with Ultimate's metagame.
For example, R.O.B. and Pac-Man are huge in the Ultimate meta right now, but I feel that the perception on their SSB4 iterations may rise if the SSB4 meta came back, due to the amount of similarities of the iterations.
Remember how much player's complain about R.O.B.'s "busted" down tilt due to how fast and safe it is? Down tilt is completely unchanged from SSB4. Remember how much Pac-Man's meta rose back at SSB4's 2018 meta? I'd imagine Pac-Man would rise even further given how potent Ultimate Pac-Man is now and how much (fundamental) similarities the two iterations have.
About about good ol' Bayonetta? Well her best 4 players from SSB4 that provided by far her best results in high level play are either retired or banned. How much would this impact her results at high level play, especially solo results?

Of course this is all speculative/retrospective since I doubt anyone (or at least a significant amount of people) wants to go back to SSB4 since we have Ultimate.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Glutonny discusses the Pyra/Mythra conversation atm
Oh, and he's not going to Riptide :drsad:
 

Lacrimosa

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That means we will hear more Wario ****talk.

Or not, considering there is no Wario on Glutonny's level (unless I'm unaware of someone new).
 
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B_Burg

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May 1, 2019
Messages
54
On the topic of Ultimate's balance, I think it's interesting to think about it from a few different scopes.

For example, I personally agree with the notion that Ultimate is the best balanced Smash game that has been made thus far. At least as things stand right now. Largely because previous Smash games have had one or a select few characters that towered over everyone else.

However when I think about it from a different perspective, I could understand how some might still be frustrated with the way this game is balanced. We have seen tier lists made by high and top level players with upwards of 15, or even 20 characters in the most extreme examples, in the top tier alone. On the one hand, that's cool because it leads to a lot more character variety even when just talking about which characters are the absolute best in the game. On the other hand I personally don't think a character can be top tier in this game without having something about them being "off" in terms of their balancing. Leading to them being "overpowered", at least within the scope of Ultimate.

When thinking about previous Smash games, the best characters in those games could (and have) been called things like "broken" to describe how much they completely overwhelm the rest of the cast. But in Smash Ultimate, there doesn't seem to be a character who really stands out in that regard yet. But instead you have a lot more characters that could in theory be descirbed as "overpowered" but not at a level that would be described as "broken." Which again, I could see why things being balanced the way they are could frustrate someone. As I said before though, I personally think this is the best balanced Smash game there has been thus far, and that the approach this game has taken has been for the best.

It's an interesting topic, even in a vacuum, thinking about this games balance. I'm curious to see how many characters typically thought of as being mid-tier can rise through the ranks with the right character specialist and some breakout performances.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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I think it's easier to agree on who's the worst.
I'd argue :ultganondorf: and :ultlittlemac:are considered the two worst by a majority, but then before Pyra/Mythra came out, the general majority of top players all agreed the general best was :ultjoker: or :ultpikachu: while in Japan they also discussed :ultzss:. So, it was about the same for both.
 

Thinkaman

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It is rather difficult to construct a good-faith quantitative definition of balance that puts Melee more balanced than Brawl. You'd generally have to get some sort of measure that specifically looks at top4s or top2s, ideally a specific number of years into the game's lifespan. (Top 1 doesn't work, nor do most top 8+; certain weightings could work though)

It's basically impossible to do the same for Smash 4 being worse than either, and then again with Ultimate from 4.

  • The relative standard deviation of character mains used by the last MIOM top 100 I found was 162%, with 34 Fox mains.
  • The relative standard deviation of character mains used by the SSBB Rank 2014 top 100 was 145%, with 24 MK mains.
  • The relative standard deviation of character mains used by the end-of-Smash4 PGR 100 was 132%, with 10 Bayo mains.
  • The relative standard deviation of character mains used by OrionRank 2020 (through Byleth) was 112%, with 6 Palutena, Snake, and ROB mains.

Note that the Smash 4 top 100 used measures its entire lifespan, and includes reflects some pre-patch player performances; the Diddy and Sheik numbers are accordingly inflated. In hindsight I should have used OrionRank to avoid this, which would instead included players/characters like Lea/Greninja and IcyMist/Samus, who I was surprised to be reminded didn't make the PGR 100 cut. I would expect OrionRank 2018 numbers to be slightly less variant, but I'm too lazy to run the numbers again.

Meanwhile, the Ultimate numbers are a work-in-progress, based on data from The Bad Year, and also reflects outdated patches + mains. It's just the best we got atm, sorry.



As a reminder, comparing balance between different games is already bordering on Very Stupid And Extremely Pointless territory, but the One Cardinal Sin Thou Must Not Do is normalize to roster size. A game ought not be deemed "more balanced" just because it has fewer characters, or "less balanced" because it has more.

This line of thinking implies idiotic and self-contradicting conclusions, such as:
  • Deleting Pichu and Bowser from Melee would make it a far more balanced game, greatly improving its competitive scene.
  • Brawl must be the most balanced Smash game because over 70% of its roster was represented by top 100 players, the highest of all 4 games.
  • Allowing Miis to compete in Smash 4 negatively impacted the game's balance more than Bayonetta+Cloud combined.
  • An Ultimate tournament with 32 unique mains used in the top 32 is disappointing because only 39% of the roster was used.
"Balance" being defined in any way relative to roster size means it ceases to be a measure of player experience (aka how many characters you see and play against) and is instead measuring... something else imaginary, some abstract theoretical that cares more about the Pichu vs. Bowser melee matchup than the actual competitive scene.
 

meleebrawler

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It is rather difficult to construct a good-faith quantitative definition of balance that puts Melee more balanced than Brawl. You'd generally have to get some sort of measure that specifically looks at top4s or top2s, ideally a specific number of years into the game's lifespan. (Top 1 doesn't work, nor do most top 8+; certain weightings could work though)

It's basically impossible to do the same for Smash 4 being worse than either, and then again with Ultimate from 4.

  • The relative standard deviation of character mains used by the last MIOM top 100 I found was 162%, with 34 Fox mains.
  • The relative standard deviation of character mains used by the SSBB Rank 2014 top 100 was 145%, with 24 MK mains.
  • The relative standard deviation of character mains used by the end-of-Smash4 PGR 100 was 132%, with 10 Bayo mains.
  • The relative standard deviation of character mains used by OrionRank 2020 (through Byleth) was 112%, with 6 Palutena, Snake, and ROB mains.

Note that the Smash 4 top 100 used measures its entire lifespan, and includes reflects some pre-patch player performances; the Diddy and Sheik numbers are accordingly inflated. In hindsight I should have used OrionRank to avoid this, which would instead included players/characters like Lea/Greninja and IcyMist/Samus, who I was surprised to be reminded didn't make the PGR 100 cut. I would expect OrionRank 2018 numbers to be slightly less variant, but I'm too lazy to run the numbers again.

Meanwhile, the Ultimate numbers are a work-in-progress, based on data from The Bad Year, and also reflects outdated patches + mains. It's just the best we got atm, sorry.



As a reminder, comparing balance between different games is already bordering on Very Stupid And Extremely Pointless territory, but the One Cardinal Sin Thou Must Not Do is normalize to roster size. A game ought not be deemed "more balanced" just because it has fewer characters, or "less balanced" because it has more.

This line of thinking implies idiotic and self-contradicting conclusions, such as:
  • Deleting Pichu and Bowser from Melee would make it a far more balanced game, greatly improving its competitive scene.
  • Brawl must be the most balanced Smash game because over 70% of its roster was represented by top 100 players, the highest of all 4 games.
  • Allowing Miis to compete in Smash 4 negatively impacted the game's balance more than Bayonetta+Cloud combined.
  • An Ultimate tournament with 32 unique mains used in the top 32 is disappointing because only 39% of the roster was used.
"Balance" being defined in any way relative to roster size means it ceases to be a measure of player experience (aka how many characters you see and play against) and is instead measuring... something else imaginary, some abstract theoretical that cares more about the Pichu vs. Bowser melee matchup than the actual competitive scene.
But then, who other than the mains of characters that happen to be on the low end of viability could be more vocal about dissatisfaction with the state of balance?

The best compromise devs can offer is fulfilling a given character's design as well as can be accomplished in any given setting. Focus too much on raw performance and things will get homogenized. Could anyone here come up with a relatively balanced super heavy that isn't some variation on Bowser?
 

Thinkaman

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But then, who other than the mains of characters that happen to be on the low end of viability could be more vocal about dissatisfaction with the state of balance?
There's a few ways to interpret this question, so I'm gonna shotgun answer a few different ones and apologize if all of them miss.


If you play a character like Greninja, you are totally allowed to complain about things in the game. Even though you play a character that is probably in the top third of the roster, if you just don't have fun fighting Snake then that's how it is--no one can say "No no, you're wrong, you DO have fun fighting Snake!"

But it becomes a little disingenuous to frame your issue as a "balance problem" in any traditional definition. Like, really, that's gonna be your position? That Greninja should be buffed??? Or that Snake is the guy we need to nerf? The real problem with this attitude is that once you decree that a performance gap that small is an actionable issue, you've painted yourself into a corner of seeing all competitive games as unbalanced garbage and advocating for extremely aggressive/reckless patch schedules. (Which are often not realistic or have a bad track record)

Balance is iterative and things can only become ever closer to perfection, never reach it. There will also be a first and last, always gaps between characters. And people will always complain about the gaps, it's just a question of at what point does it become First World Problems and sort of tone deaf/whiny. You can think the gaps are bigger than other people, or more worthy of more urgent developer action than other people, but those positions extressed strongly can appear weak when they are at odds with historical context. (I.e. complaining about 3% of players playing Ness just sounds stupid to anyone who has ever played another Smash game, or most fighting or MOBA games.)

The issue is not people wanting balance to be better, because everyone should want that. The issue is people talking like the Ultimate flavor of the month is some sort of balance crisis on par with Melee Fox or Brawl MK, that Tekken 7 King is as broken as release Leeroy, or that this week's LoL top pick is basically Day 1 Xin Zhao. When the coversation becomes detached from reality in this way, it puts developers in a lose-lose situation: Either we overreact in line with the magnitude of emotion, or we stick to reality and fail to satisfy what is being demanded.

The best compromise devs can offer is fulfilling a given character's design as well as can be accomplished in any given setting. Focus too much on raw performance and things will get homogenized. Could anyone here come up with a relatively balanced super heavy that isn't some variation on Bowser?
Homogonization is a huge risk; imo it's a chronic trait of amatuer complaints and design-by-committee "solutions." It's correct to worry about it.

But just like polarization, I don't think it's inevitable. (Just the sloppiest, laziest way of accomplishing the goal.)

When I worked on BBrawl I used the term "hat tricks" to refer to changes that reduced imbalance, polarization, and homogonization at the same time. These were rare and somewhat hard to find, but totally existed. They were most commonly found on "obscure tools relevant in bad matchups." In the David Sirlin parlance, you might call them "undertuned Yomi layer 2/3 options."

As a random example, take Pound. Pound is a very signature Jigglypuff move in terms of her aerial playstyle. But it's not her Plan A; it's too risky, and outside of low percents might not be as rewarding. Jigglypuff would much rather (safely!) hit you with a dozen normal aerials and just carry you offscreen. But in some matchups that Plan A doesn't work well because she is zoned out and unsurprisingly those are her worst matchups. Pound, an aerial micro-zonebreaker of sorts, offers a risky way of bursting past swords or whatever. If Pound is undertuned (can be buffed without breaking things), then buffing Pound might not just make Jigglypuff better and specifically improve her worst matchups but also make her more Jigglypuff rather than less. (This is better than say, homogonizing her by just giving her more range or her worst matchups less range.)


As for super heavies, we can start with DDD and K Rool. Both are doing... pretty respectably! Certainly above any previous expectations of past super heavies. Both of them have vaguely comparable peak results as Bowser (in the ballpark), even though Bowser has much higher usage and broader results at lower levels.

DDD, K Rool, and Bowser don't play all that much alike. A large part of this just comes from the radically different "core neutral tool" they are each endowed with.

I'm pretty comfortable asserting that DDD would be top 10 if you gave him G&W-tier disadvantage; he has a single crippling weakness that has been discussed at length, and is otherwise... pretty compelling at winning his games of attrition. Bowser would be super straightforward to tune to any desired level of performance. Improving K. Rool is the trickier one; I'd want to understand his matchups better before I start prescribing pills.

I think DK is tougher to get right honestly.
 

meleebrawler

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There's a few ways to interpret this question, so I'm gonna shotgun answer a few different ones and apologize if all of them miss.


If you play a character like Greninja, you are totally allowed to complain about things in the game. Even though you play a character that is probably in the top third of the roster, if you just don't have fun fighting Snake then that's how it is--no one can say "No no, you're wrong, you DO have fun fighting Snake!"

But it becomes a little disingenuous to frame your issue as a "balance problem" in any traditional definition. Like, really, that's gonna be your position? That Greninja should be buffed??? Or that Snake is the guy we need to nerf? The real problem with this attitude is that once you decree that a performance gap that small is an actionable issue, you've painted yourself into a corner of seeing all competitive games as unbalanced garbage and advocating for extremely aggressive/reckless patch schedules. (Which are often not realistic or have a bad track record)

Balance is iterative and things can only become ever closer to perfection, never reach it. There will also be a first and last, always gaps between characters. And people will always complain about the gaps, it's just a question of at what point does it become First World Problems and sort of tone deaf/whiny. You can think the gaps are bigger than other people, or more worthy of more urgent developer action than other people, but those positions extressed strongly can appear weak when they are at odds with historical context. (I.e. complaining about 3% of players playing Ness just sounds stupid to anyone who has ever played another Smash game, or most fighting or MOBA games.)

The issue is not people wanting balance to be better, because everyone should want that. The issue is people talking like the Ultimate flavor of the month is some sort of balance crisis on par with Melee Fox or Brawl MK, that Tekken 7 King is as broken as release Leeroy, or that this week's LoL top pick is basically Day 1 Xin Zhao. When the coversation becomes detached from reality in this way, it puts developers in a lose-lose situation: Either we overreact in line with the magnitude of emotion, or we stick to reality and fail to satisfy what is being demanded.



Homogonization is a huge risk; imo it's a chronic trait of amatuer complaints and design-by-committee "solutions." It's correct to worry about it.

But just like polarization, I don't think it's inevitable. (Just the sloppiest, laziest way of accomplishing the goal.)

When I worked on BBrawl I used the term "hat tricks" to refer to changes that reduced imbalance, polarization, and homogonization at the same time. These were rare and somewhat hard to find, but totally existed. They were most commonly found on "obscure tools relevant in bad matchups." In the David Sirlin parlance, you might call them "undertuned Yomi layer 2/3 options."

As a random example, take Pound. Pound is a very signature Jigglypuff move in terms of her aerial playstyle. But it's not her Plan A; it's too risky, and outside of low percents might not be as rewarding. Jigglypuff would much rather (safely!) hit you with a dozen normal aerials and just carry you offscreen. But in some matchups that Plan A doesn't work well because she is zoned out and unsurprisingly those are her worst matchups. Pound, an aerial micro-zonebreaker of sorts, offers a risky way of bursting past swords or whatever. If Pound is undertuned (can be buffed without breaking things), then buffing Pound might not just make Jigglypuff better and specifically improve her worst matchups but also make her more Jigglypuff rather than less. (This is better than say, homogonizing her by just giving her more range or her worst matchups less range.)


As for super heavies, we can start with DDD and K Rool. Both are doing... pretty respectably! Certainly above any previous expectations of past super heavies. Both of them have vaguely comparable peak results as Bowser (in the ballpark), even though Bowser has much higher usage and broader results at lower levels.

DDD, K Rool, and Bowser don't play all that much alike. A large part of this just comes from the radically different "core neutral tool" they are each endowed with.

I'm pretty comfortable asserting that DDD would be top 10 if you gave him G&W-tier disadvantage; he has a single crippling weakness that has been discussed at length, and is otherwise... pretty compelling at winning his games of attrition. Bowser would be super straightforward to tune to any desired level of performance. Improving K. Rool is the trickier one; I'd want to understand his matchups better before I start prescribing pills.

I think DK is tougher to get right honestly.
I'm not saying top or high tier mains aren't capable of noticing or commenting on issues with balance. I just feel like they are less likely to feel that it is a big problem with any given game. Maybe there's also the possibility of being seen as hypocritical, dumb as it sounds.

Aside from truly egregious amounts of power over the rest of cast on the levels of Brawl Meta Knight, I notice a lot of top tiers in general (not just in Smash) get nerfed not just for merely being strong, but being too easy to play and get results with. The latest Pokemon MOBA Unite has good examples of this in Cinderace and Gengar. The former's nerf led to a lot more people playing that game's Greninja and seeing how strong he really was; there is a concern going around that he kind of outclasses an entire class of characters (speedsters, aka assassins) in their intended role, but the questions are if this is really because he's just that good, or if the structure of the game itself is what is making pure assassins undesirable, not unlike how you've stated many times the way we've structured competitive Smash does someone like Little Mac no favours.

At the end of the day devs have the last word on whether they feel the characters they tune are performing the way they want, but I do personally respect those that find "hat trick" solutions as you call them, like the most recent Blissey Safeguard buff in Unite not only making an alternative style more viable, but giving more counterplay to other strong options.
 

Thinkaman

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I think predisposition to complain is mostly a personality thing, I don't even know if I'd expect a correlation.

There's a type of person who plays only top tiers and still complains about everything--they will even whine about the "cheese" low tiers have, and God help us if their top tier main gets nerfed even slightly. And there's martyr-complex bottom-tier mains who gripe just as much from the opposite end.

Then you've got people at the top who proudly insist their character is broken, and people at the bottom who insist their character is criminally underrated.

It's like this in every game I've ever played.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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While waiting for Riptide, Orionstats update
 

The_Bookworm

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While waiting for Riptide, Orionstats update
Some things to note:
Thanks to Myllonir's performance, :ultswordfighter: is no longer the lowest ranked character, now with 11 points as the 4th lowest ranked character. PPlant, Ganondorf, and Mac are now the bottom three.
Both :ultryu::ultken: endured very notable rises thanks to AndresFN's performance. Ryu, who was tied with Corrin as the 7th-8th lowest ranked character at 13 points, rose significantly to #66 with 25 points. Ken is now at #43 with 49.5 points, surpassing Terry as the highest ranked FGC character.
VoiD's performance at Summit is not enough to prevent :ultsheik: from dropping out of the top 20. She dropped significantly to #25 with 96 points. :ultsephiroth: is also the same, dropping to #21, but not nearly as harsh as Sheik. Funnily enough, he is now only 0.5 points ahead of Cloud.
:ultluigi: also dropped off a bit. This one may be placebo, but I vaguely remember Luigi being in the top 30 in the last several rankings. He is currently #33 at 70.5 points.
 

Gleam

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I'd like to point out that, while characters like :ultganondorf::ultlittlemac::ultpiranha: still struggle behind, all of them have currently surpassed their Phase 03 points. Honestly we might very well get back to the Phase 01 and 02 numbers soon after. I bring it up because it shows us that, while these characters may be at the end of the scale, they are still earning some kind of points. They haven't just stopped.

And I think it gives a good insight when looking at these characters and numbers. Realizing that, just because your character may seem too low, are still often earning several points. As someone who has been keeping track of :ultridley:, I can tell you he's already jumped from 20 points to just shy of 30 points and is now just 5-6 points shy of surpassing his Phase 03 Orion numbers.

Don't be shocked if your character ends up dropping several ranks. When you've got potentially half the cast fighting over Mid Tier in general, your going to see characters rise and fall. Be more wary of the points your character is earning, because if you find out after several updates your character has barely accumulated anything, that might paint a pitiful picture of them.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Aug 24, 2018
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Not related to Singles, but Aegis is looking mighty scary in doubles at Riptide.
Oh, and Cloudy mentioned this before the event that they were dummy strong in doubles.
Hopefully they're not as good as :4cloud: was in doubles, because I remember Smash 4 Cloud in doubles had more representation then :metaknight: in singles.
 

toonito

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Jul 10, 2017
Messages
793
While waiting for Riptide, Orionstats update
biggest gain: :ultlink: +16 (where did this come from lol)
biggest drop: :ultmarth::ultmetaknight::ultsheik:-6
 

The_Bookworm

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Jan 10, 2018
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Big upset alert: Marss:ultzss: 1-3 Anathema:ultrob:. The player is currently fighting vs Elegant:ultluigi: for top 24 winner's.

MkLeo:ultbyleth: 3-0 Sharp:ultzss: & Maister:ultgnw: 3-0 yonni:ultsteve:, both advancing to top 8.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Apr 11, 2016
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TonyZTank :ultsonic: 3-2 Fatality :ultfalcon:after 2-0'ing LeoN :ultbowser:


This tournament..the rest of losers brackets are going to be a Riptide of blood crashing on a beach full of nails and broken glass
 
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SKX31

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Feb 22, 2019
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TonyZTank :ultsonic: 3-2 Fatality :ultfalcon:after 2-0'ing LeoN :ultbowser:


This tournament..the rest of losers brackets are going to be a Riptide of blood crashing on a beach full of nails and broken glass
This might be on par with Frostbite 2020 in the amount of upsets.
LeoN just blew up Marss 3 - 0, meaning that Marss bows out at 33rd. BigBoss eliminated SKITTTLES!! 3 -1, and now LeoN will face BigBoss for a Top 24 spot.

Yes, offline is just about returning. But not only is the upset list really long, it's saying something when several players such as Loaf and TonyZTank pull off multiple or even consecutive upsets. If this continues in subsuquent tournaments (Frostbite 2020 being the last pre-lockdown supermajor IIRC) I'll feel pretty confident saying that the gap between the very best and the "tier" below is extremely small and very porous.

Also, two Peaches at Top 24 (MuteAce and LingLing) is encouraging for Peach mains after all that happened.
 
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Gleam

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I just want to point out that we actually have a :ultganondorf:in 33rd (Rickles) which I think is quite something. This may be the best rank we've ever seen Rickles gain in such a massive, super major such as this as he's almost always placed within the 65th placement. Which, for a character who arguably may be the worst in the game, I wouldn't feel too disparaging about it.

But this is not only some of the best rankings for Rickles (for such a large scale tournament) but is probably the best we've seen of Ganondorf in a very long time. I don't know much of the context around the matches but I'm kind of curious to see what made this sudden boost of attention. Was it just facing the right players at the right time or did those changes to Ganondorf's recovery actually do something in the end?
 

The_Bookworm

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Jan 10, 2018
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I just want to point out that we actually have a :ultganondorf:in 33rd (Rickles) which I think is quite something. This may be the best rank we've ever seen Rickles gain in such a massive, super major such as this as he's almost always placed within the 65th placement. Which, for a character who arguably may be the worst in the game, I wouldn't feel too disparaging about it.

But this is not only some of the best rankings for Rickles (for such a large scale tournament) but is probably the best we've seen of Ganondorf in a very long time. I don't know much of the context around the matches but I'm kind of curious to see what made this sudden boost of attention. Was it just facing the right players at the right time or did those changes to Ganondorf's recovery actually do something in the end?
Yeah, this tournament is easily Ganondorf's best placement in Ultimate's lifetime, at least as far as I remember.
Maybe there was a super early major tournament where a Ganon player placed slightly higher, I don't remember, but that isn't very relevant today.

Similarly, BassMage got 49th with :ultjigglypuff:. Despite the fairly ok-at-best placement, this may unironically be Puff's best placement at the large event, which is also saying something.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Yeah, this tournament is easily Ganondorf's best placement in Ultimate's lifetime, at least as far as I remember.
Maybe there was a super early major tournament where a Ganon player placed slightly higher, I don't remember, but that isn't very relevant today.

Similarly, BassMage got 49th with :ultjigglypuff:. Despite the fairly ok-at-best placement, this may unironically be Puff's best placement at the large event, which is also saying something.
Also note that Myles is now guaranteed at least 13th place after eliminating TonyZTank. That is the highest resutls :ultyoshi: got a major in quite some time
 
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