Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Sucumbio]

I think it's so close to one last character and balance version 14.x.x? I've lost count but each fp2 came with one iirc . Until then players continue to to tune their main and test secondaries. It's apparent fp2 characters are hugely popular overall and especially compared to fp1 .

 

[Thinkaman]

has one of the game's most favorable movement attributes, movesets, and overall strengths. However, simply existing in Ultimate hurt this character in so many ways, that it simply hurts his overall amazing moveset so much to the point where he is often considered mid tier at best.

I've always said is the most extreme case of this in Ultimate. She has been given extremely generous tools by many standards, but even beyond the air dodge duration (which she despises) she dislikes almost every aspect of this faster mobility world.

Ultimate Jiggs airdropped into Smash 4 (without universal Ultimate changes) I suspect would be a pretty solid character in the Smash 4 meta, especially post-patch Ultimate Jigglypuff with extra-high-reward Pound and good f-throw. Few characters would benefit that much in this experiment--especially if you count key landing lag changes as "universal" (and exclude them) for buffed characters like Palutena.

The most extreme example of this in the series, and my overall most favorite example of this is .

-snip-

And to add insult to injury, he still gets ledgehogged! At least (almost) everyone else in Melee had a pretty bad recovery too, but while everyone else got drastically better recovery in Brawl Falcon and Ganon got maybe a third of that benefit at best. (While losing the token-but-useful down-b DJ refresh.) You could make a pretty clear argument that Melee/Brawl Falcon+Ganon had a worse recovery than Little Mac or anyone else in any (post-64) game.

Smash 4 didn't just give Falcon meaningful offensive reward back, it also introduced a Falcon who could actually recover for the first time. That alone was a huge boon to his viability, 100% required to see the results Fatality got. Hell, part of what makes Fatality so impressive/successful is specifically his expertise in taking a bad recovery in a bad situation and consistently threading the needle to make it work. That mini-game he is so good at doesn't even get to exist with older Falcons.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I've always said is the most extreme case of this in Ultimate. She has been given extremely generous tools by many standards, but even beyond the air dodge duration (which she despises) she dislikes almost every aspect of this faster mobility world.

Ultimate Jiggs airdropped into Smash 4 (without universal Ultimate changes) I suspect would be a pretty solid character in the Smash 4 meta, especially post-patch Ultimate Jigglypuff with extra-high-reward Pound and good f-throw. Few characters would benefit that much in this experiment--especially if you count key landing lag changes as "universal" (and exclude them) for buffed characters like Palutena.



And to add insult to injury, he still gets ledgehogged! At least (almost) everyone else in Melee had a pretty bad recovery too, but while everyone else got drastically better recovery in Brawl Falcon and Ganon got maybe a third of that benefit at best. (While losing the token-but-useful down-b DJ refresh.) You could make a pretty clear argument that Melee/Brawl Falcon+Ganon had a worse recovery than Little Mac or anyone else in any (post-64) game.

Smash 4 didn't just give Falcon meaningful offensive reward back, it also introduced a Falcon who could actually recover for the first time. That alone was a huge boon to his viability, 100% required to see the results Fatality got. Hell, part of what makes Fatality so impressive/successful is specifically his expertise in taking a bad recovery in a bad situation and consistently threading the needle to make it work. That mini-game he is so good at doesn't even get to exist with older Falcons.

I would add and and were mpacted pretty hard by Ultimates mobility changes since landing tippers was a major part of their gameplan and it's harder to do it consistently in Ultimates engine AND INLCUDING got major direct nerfs from SSB4 and are straight up worse characters regardless of game engine

I would also say also got screwed because he did not really get the same universal mobility buffs as every other character for some bizzare reason and feels even more slow and sluggish in Ultimate

 

[Thinkaman]

Id say Marth and Corrin also got impacted pretty hard by Ultimates mobility changes AND got big direct nerfs from SSB4 as well.

I would also say Doc also got screwed because he did not really get the same universal mobility buffs as every other character for some bizzare reason

Agreed and agreed. I'm just saying that the universal changes themselves specifically hurt Jiggs, as opposed to other characters (like these) who were more directly (or in Doc's case passively) nerfed.

It's sort of like on the flipside how Palutena got way better not thanks to the universal changes, but because she was just directly buffed on every single ground move, aerial, and special. (And while everyone got landing lag buffs universally, Palutena's were abnormally large and extra significant.)

 

[The_Bookworm]

And to add insult to injury, he still gets ledgehogged! At least (almost) everyone else in Melee had a pretty bad recovery too, but while everyone else got drastically better recovery in Brawl Falcon and Ganon got maybe a third of that benefit at best. (While losing the token-but-useful down-b DJ refresh.) You could make a pretty clear argument that Melee/Brawl Falcon+Ganon had a worse recovery than Little Mac or anyone else in any (post-64) game.

I would argue that recoveries in Brawl weren't really all that good either. Certainly better than Melee recoveries, but still not quite good overall.
A lot of characters in the game are still plagued with linear/short recoveries that are easily ledgehogged, a notion that are more glaring with the veteran characters.
A lot of the newcomers do have ways to cheat recovery, but not all of them (Diddy, Olimar, and Wolf come to mind).
Recoveries in Brawl are generally fairly polarizing: for most of the cast, you either have an amazing recovery that covers great distance and/or tough to edgeguard, or you have a recovery that is linear, exploitable, easily ledgehogged, or all of the above.

SSB4 is where the floodgates open in terms of being able to cheat recoveries, or at the very least recover easily, with the removal of ledgehogging, generous ledge sweetspots, reduced endlag to airdodges, and a lot of the cast getting direct improvements to their recoveries (again Diddy and Olimar come to mind).

 

[Arthur97]

Actually, that is a question. Does the end of DLC mean the end of balance patches?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Actually, that is a question. Does the end of DLC mean the end of balance patches?

In Smash 4 we got a few balance changes after DLC, mostly aimed at nerfing Bayonetta. 1.1.5 had some significant balance changes overall (various buffs that didn't seem to make characters all that viable, and some notable nerfs to Bayonetta, Cloud, Corrin, and Sheik), 1.1.6 was just Bayonetta nerfs. Might be worth noting that Bayonetta, Cloud, and Sheik were still top tier at the end of Smash 4, and Corrin was high tier (probably would've been top tier if not for the 1.1.5 nerfs though). So I suppose it's plausible that we'll get some balance changes. But it's not guaranteed, they might feel that this game is better balanced than 4. We'll see, I suppose.

 

[Arthur97]

Also may be worth noting is Smash 4's situation of being on the Wii U. Switch still seems to be going pretty strong, so they may be more vested in continued support.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

In Smash 4 we got a few balance changes after DLC, mostly aimed at nerfing Bayonetta. 1.1.5 had some significant balance changes overall (various buffs that didn't seem to make characters all that viable, and some notable nerfs to Bayonetta, Cloud, Corrin, and Sheik), 1.1.6 was just Bayonetta nerfs. Might be worth noting that Bayonetta, Cloud, and Sheik were still top tier at the end of Smash 4, and Corrin was high tier (probably would've been top tier if not for the 1.1.5 nerfs though). So I suppose it's plausible that we'll get some balance changes. But it's not guaranteed, they might feel that this game is better balanced than 4. We'll see, I suppose.

I mean we really have not gotten a chance of the FP2 characters will be in the offline meta. I mean we can see inline results and theorize much as we want. But we have yet to see any character be "a problem" as far as the games overall balance. I doubt we will get any real idea for a while since it seems most pro players who were interested in using FP2 characters right now seems to want to "play it safe" as they get used to offline high-level play by using their old mains or characters they are familiar/experience with with


But it's safe to say that every released FP2 character has shown pretty high potential so far

 

[The_Bookworm]

Actually, that is a question. Does the end of DLC mean the end of balance patches?

That is a good question.

In SSB4, patch 1.1.4 was the update that released Corrin and Bayonetta at February 3rd, 2016. how in the world is this over 5 years ago wth
Patch 1.1.5 came out one month later at March 15th, 2016. This balance patch seems to be intended to the supreme, final balance patch of the game.
Patch 1.1.6 came out two months later at May 20th, 2016. This balance patch only exists to be an emergency nerf to Bayonetta, so we can assume that this balance patch was never planned in the long-term to even exist.

So in SSB4, it only took until shortly after the final DLC characters for the patch cycle to conclude. Patch 1.1.7 did come out in 2017, but it only exists to give the Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta amiibos functionality (1.1.6 replays are still saved), so that doesn't count.

The overall patch cycle for SSB4, not counting 1.1.7, is 20 months (between 1.0.1 and 1.1.6).
So far, the patch cycle for Ultimate is 31 months (between 1.1.0 and 12.0.0) and counting, so we have already far exceeded SSB4's patch cycle.
We also exceeded the number of balance changes in comparison to SSB4 (remember that stuff like 8.1.0 existed as well).

While the argument that they are more likely to support Ultimate for longer can be supported, part of me thinks that we are likely nearing the end of the patch cycle. We have already gotten lots of balance updates released throughout over 2 years of releasing new characters, and the balance changes haven't been too impactful as of late (although 11.0.0's changes to the top tiers is a small breath of fresh air).

Unless the last character turns out to be a demon strong enough to be emergency nerfed (like with Bayo), I don't think we are going to be getting much after the release of the final character.

 

[Thinkaman]

The_Bookworm beat me to it. Smash 4 suggests that we should maybe expect a 14.0.0 (and perhaps a 14.1.0 or 14.0.1 if necessary), but not anything more.

It is plausible (but imo unlikely) that Smash 4 would have had continued updates if everyone involved didn't move on to develop a new project at that time. But the main thing driving this sort of thing is economics. QA staff, including for balance, ain't cheap to just have indefinitely caretaking a product.

This is not a F2P game with ongoing revenue streams. We enjoy balance changes mostly as part of the tailwind of DLC development, and that being a justification for keeping the balance team on the QA payroll. To be blunt, no aspect of Smash's brand or marketing potential is reliant on continued long-term support.

We know that the balance team includes (or at least has in the past) a few top Japanese Smash 4 players. While it's possible that these individuals have some sort of special long-term consulting arrangement set up to continue for quite some time, or that some of them are continuing at Namco to work on other projects (but still be partially available for Smash long-term support), both those are imo unlikely.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I figured some peeps might be interested in it while we wait for Kagaribi, but an offline Mexican Invitational is going on right now!

SKL Invitaciona... | Brackets (smash.gg)

Notable players like Maister, Meme, and Cloudy are all participating, with the latter in particular going all (minus 2 games).

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Kagaribi #4

1st ProtoBanham
2nd Zackray
3rd Tea
4th HERO
5th Kome
5th Yoshidora
7th Lea
7th Akakikusu
9th tk3
9th Noi
9th Atelier
9th Gackt
13th Tsu
13th Raito
13th Huto
13th Shuton
17th KEN
17th Eim
17th Sigma
17th Etsuji
17th Jogibu
17th Kept
17th Mao
17th Ly

 

[KirbySquad101]

Kagaribi 4 Results (extended up to Top 64 and notable players out prior):
25. shky
25. YOC
25. Yamanaction
25. DoubleA
25. Nanchan
25. Repo
25. Rinkuru
25. JILL
33. Across
33. Abadango
33. Re:'SHUNP
33. Paru
33. Paseriman
33. Manzoku
33. Lickey
33. Takei
33. Rotsuko
33. Ryu
33. chicken
33. Lax
33. Nietono
33. Dark Samus-sama
33. Lv. 1
33. Jagaimo
49. Kuro
49. Choco
49. Tet
49. takoman
49. Kameme
49. Renya
49. Rain
49. Rattsu
49. Hikari
49. FILIP
49. TKM
49. KaPMK
49. murasat
49. Two-Kiwama Ah!
49. SaSamisu
49. Shirayuki
65. Umeki
97. HIKARU
97. Yuzu

There's... honestly a lot to unpack here lol. Too much in fact, and it's gonna take a looooootttt of time to cover EVERYTHING noteworthy in this tourney, cause yeeeeesssshhhhhh.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Kagaribi 4 Results (extended up to Top 64 and notable players out prior):
25. shky
25. YOC
25. Yamanaction
25. DoubleA
25. Nanchan
25. Repo
25. Rinkuru
25. JILL
33. Across
33. Abadango
33. Re:'SHUNP
33. Paru
33. Paseriman
33. Manzoku
33. Lickey
33. Takei
33. Rotsuko
33. Ryu
33. chicken
33. Lax
33. Nietono
33. Dark Samus-sama
33. Lv. 1
33. Jagaimo
49. Kuro
49. Choco
49. Tet
49. takoman
49. Kameme
49. Renya
49. Rain
49. Rattsu
49. Hikari
49. FILIP
49. TKM
49. KaPMK
49. murasat
49. Two-Kiwama Ah!
49. SaSamisu
49. Shirayuki
65. Umeki
97. HIKARU
97. Yuzu

There's... honestly a lot to unpack here lol. Too much in fact, and it's gonna take a looooootttt of time to cover EVERYTHING noteworthy in this tourney, cause yeeeeesssshhhhhh.

I guess the most noteworthy to discuss would be and . In particular, I'm pretty sure this is the best Bowser result in a supermajor, as I don't think LeoN has ever gotten 4th at a supermajor, at most he gets 9th (Though LeoN has better wins).

 

[NotLiquid]

So

With the exception of that one time Leo switched to Byleth in the middle of a Frostbite Grand Finals that he was already on track to win, does this mark the first time that a non-Joker DLC character has won an S-tier?

(It should be noted that Proto did flex between Lucina on quite a few of the sets including the first winner's bracket set he won against Zackray, but for the most of the part the sets he played were a pretty even split, and all of his winning games in the grand finals set were Min Min - even when Zackray changed back to ROB)

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

So

With the exception of that one time Leo switched to Byleth in the middle of a Frostbite Grand Finals that he was already on track to win, does this mark the first time that a non-Joker DLC character has won an S-tier?

Correct.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I guess the most noteworthy to discuss would be and . In particular, I'm pretty sure this is the best Bowser result in a supermajor, as I don't think LeoN has ever gotten 4th at a supermajor, at most he gets 9th (Though LeoN has better wins).

To add to that, if I were to make a rapid-fire bullet list of what stood out to me (and this list can DEFINITELY get bigger):

• ProtoBanham's return to form with his duo
• The massive infestation of s this tourney (four Diddy Kongs in Top 48, and two of them in Top 24!)
• Yoshidora slaughtering everyone completely out of left field (between this and Meme's most recent performance, the world's smiling on everyone's favorite dino today)
• Not a single making it to top 24 despite all her best players being there. The same can be said of as well.
• Yuzu's complete flub this tourney (along with HIKARU's and Umeki's)
• The stray that managed to squeeze her way into top 24
• Kameme and Paseriman having to fight for Top 48

 

[NotLiquid]

ProtoBanham's return to form with his duo (I think Lucina was used more than Min Min? Don't remember all of his matches though, my memory's hazy on that)

Against his winner's set with Zackray he went all Lucina. In the grand finals set he went mostly Lucina for the first set and all Min Min for the reset, though he lost all his Lucina games in the first set and the only winning game was when he switched over to Min Min - probably the reason he committed to Min Min in the reset.
In his set against Sigma he won with Min Min one game, then Lucina for two games. This trend reversed for his winner's finals set against Tea.
Against Yoshidora he went all Lucina, for his set against Shuton he went all Min Min.

As far as top 64 concerned it was about as 50/50 of a split as you could get (arguably leaning Min Min given the GF reset); a true co-main bracket run.

 

[SKX31]

where do people stand on shiek? im in larry's stream and there was a heated argument in chat (what else is new) regarding shiek. and the only result that was being floated around was void one finish at top 13 and one at 5th.
im not sold on shiek think shes just another mid tier

Not entirely sold either, but think she's still potent enough to be a problem for characters / playstyles that rely on keepaway. She's still really quick both on the ground and in terms of frame data and while her air speed isn't the greatest IIRC she's often able to carry opponents pretty damn far across the stage or even in some circumstances towards the blast zone. Also she's great a zone-breaking due to the short hop shenaningas. What I'm most concerned about re: Sheik's viability is her (in)ability to take trades or resets, since both those mean that the Sheik oftentimes will have to restart. That alongside how strong OoS options are generally and some characters gaining a lot out of resets, it's something that has me a bit wary re: Sheik.

Also, some thoughts on the Grand Finals reset in particular:

• Game 1: Was mostly even, but Proto had the slight upper hand throughout. He kept his composure - which proved valuable throughout the set - and took the game through sticking to his gameplan, even if it looked cookie cutter.
• Game 2: This game marked a significant change of pace from Zackray's side, not just due to the Kalos pick but also since he didn't let Min Min's recover at all. It was something Proto struggled with somewhat during the set, although TBF ROB is a edgeguard monster.
• Game 3.... OOOF. Zackray airdodges nothing after double jumping 10 secs in, which is an especially costly mistake vs. Proto's Min Min and erased his first stock. That practically decided the game since Proto ensured that Zackray could only go even from then on.
• Game 4: Proto dominated the first stock, but towards the end Zackray started to gain momentum. A couple missed key conversions from Zackray - a missed up smash that extended Proto's first stock and a mis-inputted down smash near the end - helped Proto, but Proto kept his compusure and ensured that Zackray had to chase the game for a lot of the time. It's also worth noting that Proto adjusted and ensured he didn't get into the same edgeguard situations as in Game 2 - had those happened I'm pretty sure Zackray would've forced a Game 5.
• Zackray's main issue IMHO is that Gyro was mostly a non-factor throughout the set - whether it missed edgeguards or Zackray just couldn't get follow-ups with that. The only effective one I could see was the kill-confirm into Rotor Arm to take the first stock in Game 2. With Gyro practically out of the picture Proto didn't need to worry about losing stage control a lot of the time. Also, where was D-Tilt? It looked completely AWOL. I don't think N-Air is the right move to open up Min Min in particular when he could just go with D-Tilt a lot of the time.
• While Proto did great, there are also some things he could improve upon. His main issue during the reset in particular was that he swung a bit too liberally - there were a lot of instances when the ARMS attacks missed and Zackray got right up in Proto's grill as a result. Now Zackray didn't manage to take advantage of those openings mostly, but it is still worrying when ROB can match Min Min's frame data up close and threaten her there.
• Overall, Proto deservedly won thanks to being consistent and not getting flustered over the longer stretches - that said, I still feel that this is early days and Proto will have to be careful in case a counter-meta develops further. Especially if the pocket Sheiks start to pop up or further balance patches throw a wrench into the whole thing. Still though, I could see Proto being a consistent Top 8 / 16 at future Supermajors and certainly a threat to take some tournaments.

 

[Minordeth]

- Proto is a monster and singlehandedly breathed life back into Lucina.

- It was fairly clear that his Min Min was the force on every top player’s mind, as Zackray and Tea had obvious set play/strategies they were trying to implement.

- Other than stage counter picking, the only thing to really force Proto off Min Min was Sigma’s Toon Link. That end of Game 3 sequence made it clear that Sigma had his Min Min’s number. If Sigma hadn’t made some crucial errors (that dair!), Top 8 may have looked quite a bit different.

- Props to Hero for proving he is anything but a wifi warrior, with some massive wins and a top 8 at a super major. All he needs to do is work on his tournament nerves, as they really were the only thing ending his run. Yes, Joker/Bowser sucks, but the difference in approach and confidence between game 1 and 3 resulted in a far closer result.

- So, uh, Akakikusu in my NA super majors when?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

- Proto is a monster and singlehandedly breathed life back into Lucina.

- It was fairly clear that his Min Min was the force on every top player’s mind, as Zackray and Tea had obvious set play/strategies they were trying to implement.

- Other than stage counter picking, the only thing to really force Proto off Min Min was Sigma’s Toon Link. That end of Game 3 sequence made it clear that Sigma had his Min Min’s number. If Sigma hadn’t made some crucial errors (that dair!), Top 8 may have looked quite a bit different.

- Props to Hero for proving he is anything but a wifi warrior, with some massive wins and a top 8 at a super major. All he needs to do is work on his tournament nerves, as they really were the only thing ending his run. Yes, Joker/Bowser sucks, but the difference in approach and confidence between game 1 and 3 resulted in a far closer result.

- So, uh, Akakikusu in my NA super majors when?

Akakikusu likely won't appear in any NA super majors unless the Menu gets better UI for Japanese players to know what the spells are without having to learn English.

I guess something to talk about is Zackray's losers run, he fell to losers against ProtoBanham at 9th place, before preceding to 3-0 Atelier, Lea, Kome and HERO in a row with a mixture between and , then he 3 stocked Tea with in Game 1, won 3-1 overall against Tea and then won 3-1 over Proto in the reset against Proto's . That's really impressive, and Zackray hasn't had that good of a losers run since Umebura SP 7.

Also stuff I noticed from Zackray's Joker is that he'd go for a down air with Arsene, get the spike, then follow up with a dragdown up air and depending on the percent window he'd either go for a grab follow up or an up-smash if it killed, where as before he'd always go for the up-smash.

 

[Gleam]

I got to say, despite the initial impressions everyone had (and by impressions, I mean everyone was calling them so broken, they were shocked Sakurai released them as they were) the Aegis has done fairly poorly throughout her tenure right now, with her #33 placement being the best of her placement to date. Which by itself isn't shabby, though nothing to really praise either, but it's a minor drop in the bucket towards the massive popularity this character had, not only in this tournament but also just in general.

This is true even for her online position, being by far one of the most used characters in the game, but with some of the worst results there is.

Meanwhile we've had making Top 10 across the likes of InfinityCON and Kagaribi4. The only place that Pythra seems to be making any real notice is in minor 100 man or less tournaments. I suppose we're still very much in the early stage of some of the DLC characters getting into offline results but one has to ask.

We're we that wrong on the Aegis?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I got to say, despite the initial impressions everyone had (and by impressions, I mean everyone was calling them so broken, they were shocked Sakurai released them as they were) the Aegis has done fairly poorly throughout her tenure right now, with her #33 placement being the best of her placement to date. Which by itself isn't shabby, though nothing to really praise either, but it's a minor drop in the bucket towards the massive popularity this character had, not only in this tournament but also just in general.

This is true even for her online position, being by far one of the most used characters in the game, but with some of the worst results there is.

Meanwhile we've had making Top 10 across the likes of InfinityCON and Kagaribi4. The only place that Pythra seems to be making any real notice is in minor 100 man or less tournaments. I suppose we're still very much in the early stage of some of the DLC characters getting into offline results but one has to ask.

We're we that wrong on the Aegis?

No, just we don't have Sparg0, Leo, Cosmos or VoiD travelling to majors yet. Wait until that starts happening and if Pyra/Mythra still don't have good results at majors then start worrying.
Speaking of which, Cosmos went to a 200 man regional going solo / and won the event.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

No, just we don't have Sparg0, Leo, Cosmos or VoiD travelling to majors yet. Wait until that starts happening and if Pyra/Mythra still don't have good results at majors then start worrying.
Speaking of which, Cosmos went to a 200 man regional going solo / and won the event.

As far as I am aware, Cosmos has said he has no intention of returning to top level play, so outside of regionals who knows if we'll see him at all.

 

[Frihetsanka]

As far as I am aware, Cosmos has said he has no intention of returning to top level play, so outside of regionals who knows if we'll see him at all.

I don't think he said this? More like he isn't making it his priority anymore, but it sounds to me that he's still going to go to majors and such?

 

[Thinkaman]

The situation is a tad nuanced.

On one hand, these aren't really the Mythra/Pyra players were have really been waiting for. (Except maybe Shuton.) Those western players were busy (doing extremely well) at regional events this weekend.

But on the other hand, the theory/concern has always been less that Mythra is amazing in the hands of an expert, but that she is also so easy to play and pick up that tons of people will be playing her, and that down-bracket wil be swarmed with this easy-payoff powerhouse that displaces Wolf, Palutena and such and casually dominates large portions of the scene much like Smash 4 Cloud.

That has not happened. Now Mythra is in the same boat as Sephiroth really: we're waiting on specific top players to show us their future.

(And Min Min is in the same boat too, except with more mature results already flowing in.)

-----

Surprised how little talk their is about Zackray's . Imo his ROB overall looked tighter than his Joker, and IIRC he used ROB in more games by a small margin. I really don't see how ROB isn't a top tier character at this point; there's a clear trend that extends from pre-pandemic, through online events, and now to offline once again.

Also on the flip-side, obligatory results comment. Abadango's play was very polished yet he still underperformed his Palu significantly.

 

[DJ3DS]

Surprised how little talk their is about Zackray's . Imo his ROB overall looked tighter than his Joker, and IIRC he used ROB in more games by a small margin. I really don't see how ROB isn't a top tier character at this point; there's a clear trend that extends from pre-pandemic, through online events, and now to offline once again.

I don't know the exact numbers but Zackray just plays whatever he perceives to be the better matchup. I don't get the impression he consciously favours either character.

ROB is still just too volatile, in my opinion, and prone to being blown up in bad matchups, which can come from so many places. Zackray doesn't need to deal with this because he has Joker in the back pocket (and the patience to always wait for the other player to pick first).

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't know the exact numbers but Zackray just plays whatever he perceives to be the better matchup. I don't get the impression he consciously favours either character.

ROB is still just too volatile, in my opinion, and prone to being blown up in bad matchups, which can come from so many places. Zackray doesn't need to deal with this because he has Joker in the back pocket (and the patience to always wait for the other player to pick first).

Yeah, I wasn't trying to label Zackray a ROB primary, just commenting that I did see more ROB than Joker at this event, and thought the ROB looked even better than his (fantastic) Joker to match.

I'd definitely consider Zackray and Proto's character spread this event as co-mains, rather than any sort of main+secondary. Even their character choices in just their 3 sets against each other supports this.

 

[Firox]

I'm not going to prematurely declare Kazuya broken, but this character is pretty stupid all things considered. He's got a clutch finisher over 100% damage, he's got a reflector kick, an automatic 10 hit combo, tough guy armor a la bowser, straight-up super armor on his smash attacks, a seemingly decent recovery, a powerful command grab, tons of shield break moves, an insta-stun side B, a ledge spike down smash, a decently aimable projectile that does about 10% damage a shot and spans almost the full length of FD, wavedashing with invincibility frames and a wingbeat double jump to compensate for his lackluster first jump which functions as a auto-short hop.

In short, he's very technical with a massively high skill ceiling, but in my honest opinion, if a pro dedicates themselves to optimizing this beast, I really don't see him landing any lower than high tier. He's basically the estranged lovechild of Terry and Lil Mac but without many of their weaknesses.

 

[blackghost]

I'm not going to prematurely declare Kazuya broken, but this character is pretty stupid all things considered. He's got a clutch finisher over 100% damage, he's got a reflector kick, an automatic 10 hit combo, tough guy armor a la bowser, straight-up super armor on his smash attacks, a seemingly decent recovery, a powerful command grab, tons of shield break moves, an insta-stun side B, a ledge spike down smash, a decently aimable projectile that does about 10% damage a shot and spans almost the full length of FD, wavedashing with invincibility frames and a wingbeat double jump to compensate for his lackluster first jump which functions as a auto-short hop.

In short, he's very technical with a massively high skill ceiling, but in my honest opinion, if a pro dedicates themselves to optimizing this beast, I really don't see him landing any lower than high tier. He's basically the estranged lovechild of Terry and Lil Mac but without many of their weaknesses.

Without any of thier weaknesses? he has very little range, is high committal, and his frame data is bad. that projectile will not be a strong tool on stage vs decent players, its slow start up and can even be dashed under.
i can already see poeple complaining about ten hit combo but honestly its damage is low and the cpu fell out multiple times during the demonstration. we have quite a few characters with armor on smash attacks at this point, honestly not even a big deal. Unlike sep or terry kazuya comback goes away rather quickly.
like ryu and ken, kazuya doesnt want to be in the air even if his jump is decent.

the ledge down smash spike is way less impactful than the fact its a launcher for combos.
i have no doubts the character is good but this whole panic state that i see from some people (hungry box and others) is really early to have.

 

[Firox]

Without any of thier weaknesses? he has very little range, is high committal, and his frame data is bad. that projectile will not be a strong tool on stage vs decent players, its slow start up and can even be dashed under.
i can already see poeple complaining about ten hit combo but honestly its damage is low and the cpu fell out multiple times during the demonstration. we have quite a few characters with armor on smash attacks at this point, honestly not even a big deal. Unlike sep or terry kazuya comback goes away rather quickly.
like ryu and ken, kazuya doesnt want to be in the air even if his jump is decent.

the ledge down smash spike is way less impactful than the fact its a launcher for combos.
i have no doubts the character is good but this whole panic state that i see from some people (hungry box and others) is really early to have.

Just wanted to point out, I said "without MANY of their weaknesses". I never said Kazuya didn't have any, but then again, literally every character has at least some weakness. The difference is the strength-to-weakness ratio. Also note, there is no panic here. I specifically said that I do not consider him broken. I'm just pointing out that his kit is incredibly diverse and in the right hands could be quite impressive. Hungry Box just likes to be dramatic to get clicks and attention.

Sidebar: I do agree that the 10-hit combo seems to let opponents fall out too easily. With proper DI, I wonder how useful it will be. Also, as a Greninja main, the ability to run under his eye laser greatly pleases me.

Secondary Sidebar: Out of curiosity, how many characters have armored smash attacks? I'm only aware of:

-Bowser
-Lil Mac
-OWA Seph
-King K Rool

 

[SwagGuy99]

Kazuya's jumpsquat seems to be frame 7, making him the only character in Ultimate to have a jumpsquat slower than frame 3.

Kazuya's jumpsquat is different than all other characters in the game, everyone else has a common value of 3 frames while Kazuya seems to be having a jumpsquat of at least 6 frames https://t.co/U2hk0rPtxM

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) June 28, 2021

Based on my frame counting it he should have a jumpsquat of 7 frames

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) June 28, 2021

I've been seeing people say that this may be to make doing certain command inputs easier, but this is still a very poor jumpsquat. For comparison, Ganon/Mii Swordfighter/Charizard/Robin had frame 7 jumpsquats in S4 and Bowser's was the slowest in that game being frame 8. Most character's jumpsquats in S4 were frame 4 or 5. So even by the standards of previous Smash games, this jumpsquat isn't good.

 

[WatwatBreton]

Honestly the part that scared me the most about down smash is its 2-frame potential, I really hope that hitbox doesn't go too low XD

Otherwise the kit seemed pretty diverse in term of normals, which should give him pletora of options in close range situations and matchups. Wonder how he'll fare against zoners and big swords though, that's gonna heavily depend on his mobility stats and how applicable wavedashing is in practice (I assume it's gonna be roughly as good as inkling dash?). Having a lil reflector and his own projectile doesn't hurt though, but I don't think min min will care too much about those.

Grab game and options against shield seemed pretty decent? Still have to see how good his frame data is on shield but these are always good thing to have on your close range character - especially when that side b seems like a good way to catch other buttons and delete people.

"Cqc character with slow frame data and absurd reward" is also not an archetype we really have so far I thiiiink? They are usually mid range burst option speedy bois (falcon, terry) or have good frame data (kirby, shotos). Closest I can think of at first glance would be ganon and incineroar but there's so many things separating them from kazuya i'm not sure the comparison is that useful lol. Should be interesting to see how it fares in rushdown matchups too - if you lose at button press vs button press but delete your opponent on a RPS win it might be a stressful matchup for our friends rats and foxes.

Also his animations and VFX are super sick ngl even jab autocombos look cool lol. And the zoom on the throw is

 

[Frihetsanka]

I've been seeing a lot of people jump to the conclusion that he's OP or top tier and from what I've seen I'm not convinced. His advantage state looks strong, sure, but his mobility seems iffy, his neutral seems iffy, and his jump squat is quite bad... And his disadvantage probably isn't amazing either. Obviously we can't draw a conclusion without having seen him in action and seen his frame data and such but I'm reluctant to call him top tier for now, we need more information.

I also think Pyra/Mythra was probably a bit overrated on release, I don't think she's top 3, maybe not even top 5.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Kazuya's jumpsquat seems to be frame 7, making him the only character in Ultimate to have a jumpsquat slower than frame 3.

Kazuya's jumpsquat is different than all other characters in the game, everyone else has a common value of 3 frames while Kazuya seems to be having a jumpsquat of at least 6 frames https://t.co/U2hk0rPtxM

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) June 28, 2021

Based on my frame counting it he should have a jumpsquat of 7 frames

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) June 28, 2021

I've been seeing people say that this may be to make doing certain command inputs easier, but this is still a very poor jumpsquat. For comparison, Ganon/Mii Swordfighter/Charizard/Robin had frame 7 jumpsquats in S4 and Bowser's was the slowest in that game being frame 8. Most character's jumpsquats in S4 were frame 4 or 5. So even by the standards of previous Smash games, this jumpsquat isn't good.

WTH? That's absolutely terrible. Does this mean that the patch will have universal jumpsquat changes, or is this a new way to balance certain characters?

 

[SwagGuy99]

WTH? That's absolutely terrible. Does this mean that the patch will have universal jumpsquat changes, or is this a new way to balance certain characters?

My guess is that this is just exclusive to Kazuya. Based on what I've seen other people say this might be an attempt to make certain command inputs easier to do? Not super sure.

 

[Sucumbio]

10 strings are trash in Tekken due to their high predictability with some exceptions like Yoshimitsu (bearing in mind Tekken characters have multiple 10 strings). That said it seems perfectly well suited to his transition to smash that he be able to do one but that it's equally if not more so as penetrable.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'm gonna need a clear idea of what his grounded mobility's like before making any sort of judgement.

His trailer makes me optimistic on that front, but the demonstration didn't go over anything about it. Sakurai's wavedash looked so slow.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Watching through the footage, I have very mixed feelings on Kazuya.

On one hand, while I don't thinkgoing to be swimming in lag on his attacks like someone like or ,he is shaping up to be someone who needs a bit of time to wind up his attacks, which is unusual both by stubby boxer standards and FGC standards (Kazuya's FTilt starts at least at more than frame 10, which is already 3 frames greater than the start-up of 's FTilts). While I'm guessing his endlag will be pretty low overall (otherwise how he's stringing attacks together outside of crumbles), it also means he can't really get away with exuding absurd amounts of pressure up close the same way that other FGCs can.

That said, between his reflector, invincibility dash, dash attack, Devil Fist, and the fact that a good chunk of his attacks propel him quite the distance giving them greater burst potential than you'd think for a stubby fighter, zone-breaking characters has never looked easier with any other FGC. And this is on a character bordering superheavy attributes with things like cracked damage per hit, super armored smash attacks, and tough guy armor while looking to be about five times smaller than said superheavies.

Thinking about it, characters with strong movement options could be a problem. He definitely has the ability to shark under platforms, but having a jump that can't reach platforms on top of potentially having a frame 7 jumpsquat probably wouldn't do him favors against someone like who has no issues jumping from platform to platform safely.

A lot of this does have to be confirmed with numbers and his inevitable inclusion, so it's possible I'm missing the mark on all of this lol. Either way, I am excited for his eventual release!

-------------------------------------------------

Oh yeah, and obligatory patch comment that comes with new fighter releases: I really don't think any top tier has spiraled out of control to merit nerfing aside from maybe , but improvements to characters who continue to display meager performances like wouldn't be unwelcome. Maybe even touch on characters who just need a smaller push like .

I am a smidge concerned about the future of FP2's fighters in that they may be a bit too much to handle after patches are all said and done (particularly ), but no use worrying about things that haven't happened lol.