Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[meleebrawler]

The closest characters we have right now to Pyra & Mythra are not transformers, but shotos: I know most everyone agrees the more mobile & aggressive Ken (Mythra) is more viable than Ryu (Pyra), but a lot of his players liked having the latter and his stronger zoning as a secondary for some matchups.

Besides power, key things Pyra seems to have over Mythra is threatening out of shield options, potent ledgetrapping (all of her specials can cover many options here) and a relatively straightforward boomerang projectile for conditioning.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

SNIP

Personally, I think they look really cool.

While I'm not a fan of Pyra's look, it's still great we got more Xenoblade, along with the revival of 2 switchable fighters. But for many people who aren't interested, Pyra and Mythra are just another anime sword character visual-wise, and many of us are getting a little tired of it, even though we don't dislike it.

Although, I still believe they convey their unique fancy from Shulk over the FE cast.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Potentially best in the game, he said. Obviously it's hard to say this early but doesn't sound implausible to me. Top or high tier sounds highly likely but we'll see, we have very little to go on right now.

 

[Arthur97]

That's a big claim for trailer footage. Remember, things can change. Like block laying did.

 

[StrangeKitten]

That's a big claim for trailer footage. Remember, things can change. Like block laying did.

And Banjo's down tilt seemed to send at a much better angle for combos in his trailer. Though I'm not sure if the current one is necessarily worse. More combo game for Banjo would be nice but, the down tilt sends at a gross angle for ledgetrapping rn

 

[Arthur97]

I hope they don't get hit too hard, but, yeah, they aren't out yet and this type of footage seems to be relatively early. That said, if their switching stays quick, they should be okay. Hopefully.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think its baffling that people seem confident in their tier placement at all. Like its fine to speculate but we know practically nothing. We just have a flashy trailer meant to sell them.

We haven't see seen most of their frame data, their stats, their built in weaknesses, or even how they're going to operate in neutral/advantage/disadvatage. Heck, we don't even know if that one down tilt combo they showed is true with DI or not! We just have some standard-sized sword swings, some specials we don't know the actual specifics of (these are DLC characters, they're gonna have weird attributes on their specials), and that they have Pokemon Switch.

Maybe they'll be the next Joker. Maybe we're overhyping them and they'll be the next . To say we know for certain they'll fall into a specific tier yet is arrogant. But overconfident claims are what pull in that Youtube ad revenue, so here we are.

 

[Krysco]

Viability discussion for upcoming characters is always just for conversations sake and in the case of videos and streams for ad revenue. Furthering this is how there's nothing else to talk about since there's no in person tournaments. All these people could be right or wrong in guessing the viability of Pyra and Mythra and in either scenario, basically nothing changes. Videos already got their views and any tweet or forum post isn't gonna come back to haunt you if you're wrong. Besides, we're not even gonna know their viability even when they do come out. We still don't have a firm grasp on how viable Steve or Sephiroth are or even Min Min entirely thanks to a large lack of offline tournaments. Japan is the best we have to go off so far if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't get why some people get so upset. It is fun to speculate. It is fun to take a risk and making an early prediction. You can always play it safe with "We don't know yet", but where's the fun in that? And where's the harm, anyway? Worst case you end up overestimating or underestimating the character. Sometimes a character is overhyped (like Steve, I'd argue), and sometimes a character is underestimated (like Joker, to some extent), but I think that's fine, chances are people will find out anyway.

Pyra/Mythra being so hyped up means that lots of people will be trying them. Is it possible that they're overhyped and some people will be disappointed? Sure. It's also possible that people are being too cautious in their predictions, perhaps they really will be the new #1 character. We'll see. I don't think anyone is saying that they know for certain, most of this is speculation based on very little footage, but it'll be interesting to see which people will be correct and which won't be.

Also, it makes for some amusing content to look back at if someone is wildly wrong in their predictions. Far more interesting than "We just won't know yet". I guess the worst potential consequence is like, the character is underrated and people don't end up playing them because of it, but well, right now people seem to be rating Pyra/Mythra quite highly. We'll see if that changes after the Sakurai presentation (in March, probably).

Oh, and seems Cosmos is really interested in Pyra/Mythra, which would be bad news for Corrin's top level representation.

 

[ZephyrZ]

It's not so much that I hate speculation as much as clickbaity video titles and thumbnails proclaiming things we have no way of knowing as if they're facts just irks me. Afterall I've thrown in my own two cents regarding them (and as you might notice, I said nothing about their tier placement). Maybe that last video that was posted wasn't as much of a culprit as some others I've seen but eh. I probably shouldn't have generalized.

And I mean yeah they could be the best characters in the game. Any new character has the potential to be. It's a non-statement.

Point is people are trying to guess the macro (tier placement) when we only have a look at the micro (some individual moves) and that just seems kind of futile to me.

But I guess it is all harmless in the end so I'll try not to get too worked up. I just have some pet peeves about unsubstantiated claims.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Again as stated before, many of us also speculated Brawl Meta Knight to be Top Tier with just the initial trailer. Where we wrong ? Or was Meta Knight almost banned in Brawl?

 

[Nobie]

I think the only weird thing about the prevalence of Fire Emblem characters in Smash is that somehow Lucina, who's said to fight just like Chrom according to their source game, fights completely differently from her own dad. If anything, they should rehaul the two of them together so that they're echo fighters of each other and not Marth/Roy.

As for Pyra/Mythra, I'm still curious whether the character switch is as simple as hitting Down B. It would make the most sense, but I was thinking about how wild it would be if the change was triggered by their dodge.

 

[DJ3DS]

Again as stated before, many of us also speculated Brawl Meta Knight to be Top Tier with just the initial trailer. Where we wrong ? Or was Meta Knight almost banned in Brawl?

People also initially thought Brawl ROB was top tier and Olimar was in the bottom half. I'd be wary of putting too much stock in a single prediction.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Calling tier list placements super early is fun and all but there's really not much to discuss. You'll tell me Pyra and Mythra are top tier but how are you really gonna back it up and how am I supposed to really refute that? We don't have any actual info. Yeah people called MK top tier right away but it was really coincidence that he actually ended up that, nevermind all the various balance changes that happened through out dev builds. It's not like people were right about Snake initially, then he actually shot up and briefly was considered the best character.

To use a very recent example, everyone and their mother called Potemkin horrendous from the moment he got revealed in Guilty Gear Strive because the little we really saw just showed nerfs from Xrd, a game where he was already the worst. Now that the beta is out and he's looking very arguably like the best in the game while we're all looking like clowns lol.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, on the speculation front, how much slower do you think Pyra will be? She doesn't seem slow per say, so maybe that'll save her from being relegated to occasional kills...even if that would be somewhat accurate to the source material.

 

[BlazGreen]

I agree with Tweek that Pyra doesn't look slow. I'd put her at around Mario speed while Mythra is probably in the ZSS range.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Something I find interesting: Remember Smash 4 Bayonetta? Remember how many people were like "Bayonetta will always be at least high tier due to the way she's designed" during Ultimate E3 demo and such? Well... They were wrong. I don't think any character is inherently high tier, toned down anyone could be low/mid tier. So with this new character, she looks good, but maybe she has an exploitable recovery, maybe she struggles really hard to KO, etc etc. We don't know yet, but it's still fun to speculate based on what we have. It's not like we're speculating based on a picture or something, we do have some gameplay footage, limited as it may be.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Well, on the speculation front, how much slower do you think Pyra will be? She doesn't seem slow per say, so maybe that'll save her from being relegated to occasional kills...even if that would be somewhat accurate to the source material.

Maybe slower but it seems that she also has good range on her specials, making up for that.

But we'll see and I don't give a penny to any analysis video for now. We've only seen snippets and imo that's not enough to tell anything yet.

 

[Arthur97]

I do think it's probably pretty safe to say Mythra's recovery will be better if just for getting a horizontal option, at least potentially depending on how it works in the air. It also seems decently likely she may have better air mobility in general. On the flipside, her specials may take more charge time (maybe), so could help balance out.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I think it's more than just the trailer footage. It's also past precedent that leads me to say they'll be upper high tier at least. For one, being able to be a fast, combo-centric character when it's optimal, then switch to a character with high survivability and kill power when that's optimal, has proven to be a very good thing to have (PT). I doubt it'll be as extreme as Squirtle and Zard, but is it a point in their favor? Certainly.

Bats Within is one of Bayo's greatest strengths. I'd reckon every other character in the game would love to have it. Although, we can't be certain that's what P&M have. We do need clarification on this one. But if that is what's going on, or even if it's activated differently but is practically the same, that's a big strength right there.

But honestly? Those alone aren't the biggest reasons I'm thinking they'll be really good. The biggest reason is simply that Myhtra looks pretty fast, and Pyra doesn't exactly look sluggish either. So, where do all the fast swordies place on the tier list? Very highly. I mean, we've got Cloud and Sephiroth. We know Cloud has a frim place in high tier, and with how much Sephiroth improves offline, Sephiroth should be there too at the very least. Then we've got Chrom, Roy, and Lucina, who make good arguments for top tier. And lastly, Shulk, who would probably be top tier without Arts, but has Arts to make him stupid good. It also seems like they're going to have big swings for their aerials. I think one thing holding back Byleth is they didn't get fairs and bairs that cover a ton of space. Doesn't seem to be the case for P&M. And when a slow sword character can cover a ton of space with their aerials, where do they end up? Well lookie there, Corrin and Ike are high tier! And Mythra looks like she'll be quite faster than them, with Pyra probably outspeeding as well.

So, I really don't feel like I'm coming from nowhere when I say they'll probably be upper high tier at minimum. This is a guess with a lot of education behind it. It's more than just a first impressions thing. And if I'm wrong, oh well. That's the nature of speculation. They'll be dwelling in the depths of low miditer and life will go on.

 

[DJ3DS]

And lastly, Shulk, who would probably be top tier without Arts, but has Arts to make him stupid good.

You think so? I personally think that Shulk without arts is nowhere near. The character honestly cheats using it. Even making it so Hitstun switching no longer existed, let alone removing it completely, would have a very significant impact on the characters viability in my opinion. Shulk without arts is (in my opinion) one of the worst swordies.

 

[StrangeKitten]

You think so? I personally think that Shulk without arts is nowhere near. The character honestly cheats using it. Even making it so Hitstun switching no longer existed, let alone removing it completely, would have a very significant impact on the characters viability in my opinion. Shulk without arts is (in my opinion) one of the worst swordies.

I think so indeed. I play him with and without Arts active and he seems pretty great even without. Feels like Cloud with higher KO power, imo (though Cloud also has stuff over non-Arts Shulk, such as a projectile and better oos)

 

[DJ3DS]

I think so indeed. I play him with and without Arts active and he seems pretty great even without. Feels like Cloud with higher KO power, imo (though Cloud also has stuff over non-Arts Shulk)

I've got somewhat different experiences. The sheer killpower Shulk is afforded by Smash art (especially in edgeguards, but even in neutral) isn't there. Compared to Cloud, he doesn't have the burst kill options of Dash Attack and Upsmash. Without Shield, his disadvantage is bad: his size combined with his lack of fast aerials and good out of shield options only really gets by because he can press a button to stop any combo he chooses. His damage output lacks too; without buster and speed his combo game suffers a ton.

Perhaps the most scathing indictment of Shulk is the fact that even with Monado Arts as they currently are, the character is not the undisputed best. Could you imagine any other character with this move?

 

[DougEfresh]

I've got somewhat different experiences. The sheer killpower Shulk is afforded by Smash art (especially in edgeguards, but even in neutral) isn't there. Compared to Cloud, he doesn't have the burst kill options of Dash Attack and Upsmash. Without Shield, his disadvantage is bad: his size combined with his lack of fast aerials and good out of shield options only really gets by because he can press a button to stop any combo he chooses. His damage output lacks too; without buster and speed his combo game suffers a ton.

Perhaps the most scathing indictment of Shulk is the fact that even with Monado Arts as they currently are, the character is not the undisputed best. Could you imagine any other character with this move?

As a somewhat regular Shulk player myself, vanilla Shulk is still pretty good even if all the things said here are true. Fundamentally, spaced nairs and fairs are generally quite effective in neutral because very few characters have the meaningful range to poke at him from a safe distance and exploit his slow start up. Utilt covers above him well, and spaced ftilts and dtilts are nice grounded options for him regardless of arts. Bair is a very slow f19 move, but still threatening even in vanilla mode and it's damn hard, if not impossible, to punish when properly spaced. Smash art fair is one of the most disgusting edgeguarding options in the entire game, but even vanilla fair is very potent as a gimping/edgeguarding tool.

Monado arts usage should generally be used wisely when certain situations call for it, and certain match ups will call for a higher usage of some arts than others to play them well, but if you don't know how to play an effective vanilla , you probably shouldn't play the character because arts will only take you so far, each having between 14-18s of cooldown. I don't think I agree that vanilla Shulk by himself is still top tier, but I think he only drops to a solid high tier if you've got your spacing down to abuse the sheer range he has to make approaches from the majority of the cast difficult and capitalize on his fundamentally strong edgeguarding to push advantage. Just my two cents on the matter.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I think vanilla Shulk's up air is amazing, and alone might be enough to keep him top tier sans Arts. It lingers so long that it's easy to keep your foe in disadvantage, and it kills really early. And some of the best edgeguard options the game has to offer, too: The aforementioned fair, dair that can hit below the stage for low recoveries, I'm sure nair and bair have their uses, and one of the best edgeguarding tools that's only shared by Sephiroth (though wouldn't surprise me if P&M end up having this): a reverse up B that covers a ton of space and lasts forever before snapping to ledge.

I guess vanilla Shulk doesn't really get thought about much because Arts are dumb, but imo he's still really good.

 

[DJ3DS]

As a somewhat regular Shulk player myself, vanilla Shulk is still pretty good even if all the things said here are true. Fundamentally, spaced nairs and fairs are generally quite effective in neutral because very few characters have the meaningful range to poke at him from a safe distance and exploit his slow start up. Utilt covers above him well, and spaced ftilts and dtilts are nice grounded options for him regardless of arts. Bair is a very slow f19 move, but still threatening even in vanilla mode and it's damn hard, if not impossible, to punish when properly spaced. Smash art fair is one of the most disgusting edgeguarding options in the entire game, but even vanilla fair is very potent as a gimping/edgeguarding tool.

Monado arts usage should generally be used wisely when certain situations call for it, and certain match ups will call for a higher usage of some arts than others to play them well, but if you don't know how to play an effective vanilla , you probably shouldn't play the character because arts will only take you so far, each having between 14-18s of cooldown. I don't think I agree that vanilla Shulk by himself is still top tier, but I think he only drops to a solid high tier if you've got your spacing down to abuse the sheer range he has to make approaches from the majority of the cast difficult and capitalize on his fundamentally strong edgeguarding to push advantage. Just my two cents on the matter.

All fair points, though I still feel his shortcomings would drop him perhaps a bit lower than you feel - and it's simply that intelligent usage of his Arts allows him to bypass those perceived shortcomings - particularly his (otherwise lackluster) disadvantage state. High tier is bloated as is and whilst vanilla Shulk has strengths (that any good Shulk should be able to work with) I think there's a glut of characters with more notable strengths and less defined weaknesses when Arts are out of the picture.

 

[meleebrawler]

I do think it's probably pretty safe to say Mythra's recovery will be better if just for getting a horizontal option, at least potentially depending on how it works in the air. It also seems decently likely she may have better air mobility in general. On the flipside, her specials may take more charge time (maybe), so could help balance out.

They both only have one special that charges, their neutrals. Probably can't be held, but only Pyra's hits on both sides. Pyra's specials just seem more useful in general: Prominence Revolt looks a lot more consistent than Ray of Punishment or Chroma Dust (you probably get the latter by using up b in the air, skipping the initial slash but still jumping up for recovery), which can be blocked by platforms making on-stage use iffy, and Blazing End, on top of being a more reliable projectile, isn't as risky on block as Photon Edge.

 

[DougEfresh]

All fair points, though I still feel his shortcomings would drop him perhaps a bit lower than you feel - and it's simply that intelligent usage of his Arts allows him to bypass those perceived shortcomings - particularly his (otherwise lackluster) disadvantage state. High tier is bloated as is and whilst vanilla Shulk has strengths (that any good Shulk should be able to work with) I think there's a glut of characters with more notable strengths and less defined weaknesses when Arts are out of the picture.

Landing with Shulk without arts is admittedly pretty rough, I'll give you that. Offstage definitely gets weaker for him too, but I find that less concerning than the risks of getting juggled sans arts. I could probably move him to low/bottom high tier in vanilla, though I don't think I can genuinely lower him much below that even without arts. My playstyle is relatively minimalist on arts usage, only using them as long as they're needed to get out of a bad spot or switch to buster or smash once I've won neutral (usually in vanilla or speed) so that I can keep a majority of the arts available for when I might need them again depending on the interactions and relative percents of the opponent and I, so maybe I just have confidence in my vanilla Shulk even if there's far less BS to worry about without arts.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Perhaps the most scathing indictment of Shulk is the fact that even with Monado Arts as they currently are, the character is not the undisputed best. Could you imagine any other character with this move?

Going out on a limb and saying that Monado Arts can make anyone top tier.

I'm not even joking.

Most characters don't struggle that much with frame data and Arts would both address a big weakness and greatly enhance a strength for everyone.


Imagine , , , , , /, , &/or with Arts...

It's scary...

 

[Arthur97]

Is Pyra's neutral special chargeable? I mean, seems like it could be, but we don't really know much, do we?

 

[Djmarcus44]

I think so indeed. I play him with and without Arts active and he seems pretty great even without. Feels like Cloud with higher KO power, imo (though Cloud also has stuff over non-Arts Shulk, such as a projectile and better oos)

This comparison isn't accurate. Cloud has way more mobility than base Shulk. Shulk good airspeed at 1.113, but his aerial acceleration (.05), run speed (1.672), and dash speed (1.87) are below average. Cloud has great run speed (2.167), dash speed (2.145), and airspeed (1.155) with a below average air acceleration (.07). Cloud has worse kill power, but he can use and confirm into limit moves to mitigate the issue. Base Shulk has better range, edgeguarding and recovery, but Cloud has better frame data, juggling, combo potential, kill confirms, and landing ability.

While Shulk has a great combination of airspeed and range, I don't think that base Shulk is high tier. In neutral, he loses the boosts in mobility from speed and jump, and the threat of a grab combo against shielding opponents. From what I've seen in Shulk combo guides, his combo potential becomes subpar without Monado Arts. I haven't seen a Shulk kill confirm without Monado Arts either. In disadvantage, he is easier to combo, juggle, edgeguard, and kill. Strong fundamentals will take Shulk players far, but the Monado Arts keep him ahead of most of the cast.

Moving on to topics that apply to this current version of the game, Gunner has gotten some more good results and attention in the past month. Capitancito and Atmosphere got 5th and 9th in Galaxy Gambit × Collison 7 (492 entrants). Capitancito even beat Suarez. Atmosphere beat Dabuz's Min Min and Dark Pit 2-0 when Dabuz spent a day playing with Gunner, and learning about Gunner. WaDi has also used Gunner quite a bit in online tournaments. Larry Lurr even made a video about Gunner, and Frenzy Light made a combo video for the Mii Fighters. Gunner has a good online presence with WaDi ranked 11th and Capitancito ranked 35th on the most recent Box PR. Top players are starting to notice Gunner's strengths. Hopefully this momentum can carry over as we get out of the pandemic.

This is the Frenzy Light combo video. Gunner starts at 2:51.

Mii Fighters Bread and Butter combos (Beginner to Godlike)

DISCORD SERVER: https://discord.gg/JKNMqKkThe Mii's doesn't get nearly as much love as they desserve! They have some really cool combos and tricks and I want...

youtu.be

 

[NotLiquid]

I think the big challenge with transformation characters so far is that historically they've leaned so far into designing their forms as diametrically opposed in their respective strengths and weaknesses that, in practice, what tends to happen is most players default to using just one of the forms based on which one wins the perceived game of practicality the most on average. As an example, if you look at Pokémon Trainer, the only real similarity they all share between one another is that they have a dubious disadvantage state - beyond that however their respective strengths, weaknesses and general playstyles only really serve to "complement" each other more so in the theoretical sense that one's a fragile speedster, one's a mighty glacier, and the third is an all-rounder. Two of them have strong niches, and some people will argue that they're better in a lot of aspects that matter; and yes, you will ideally have gotten the most out of it if you truly do master all three characters, but it's well documented at this rate that Ivysaur is by far the most popular of the three, generally considered the best in terms of results, and most people will likely pick up Pokémon Trainer purely because it's in the rotation. Squirtle and Charizard, on average anyway, only really come out during select percentage phases or if they need a recovery boost (obviously with their overall viability still being good none of this is accounting for miscellaneous momentum factors and pure human elements). With transformation-era Zelda it was even more binary; Zelda would rarely ever be used at all in favor of Sheik except for a last ditch effort for stage recoveries that almost never worked out.

In a way, Shulk's Monado Arts was arguably the purest execution of the transformation concept since it holistically asks to shift your attributes and disadvantages depending on the current playing field in a way that only affects the character themselves. Shield, Jump, Speed, etc. all more or less flow between one another in perfect harmony and changes everything from the way Shulk is forced to handle neutral, while compensating for various blind spots in pinch situations.

Pyra and Mythra seem to be taking it an extra step, aside from seemingly treating both forms as proverbially grouped up Monado Arts in their own right, they look to draw a line with the specials. That means both forms may have to jockey for utility. I think Smash's designers are well aware at this point that being fast suffices as an instantly preferable option in most situations, but I'm left wondering whether or not Pyra may have a more overt advantage when it comes to her specials. Blazing End in particular looks like it has way more applications than Mythra's specials. I'm kind of curious whether or not, much like the trailer frames it, Mythra is intended as the better option for disadvantage states despite having stats that would arguably favor her overall.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think the big challenge with transformation characters so far is that historically they've leaned so far into designing their forms as diametrically opposed in their respective strengths and weaknesses that, in practice, what tends to happen is most players default to using just one of the forms based on which one wins the perceived game of practicality the most on average. As an example, if you look at Pokémon Trainer, the only real similarity they all share between one another is that they have a dubious disadvantage state - beyond that however their respective strengths, weaknesses and general playstyles only really serve to "complement" each other more so in the theoretical sense that one's a fragile speedster, one's a mighty glacier, and the third is an all-rounder. Two of them have strong niches, and some people will argue that they're better in a lot of aspects that matter; and yes, you will ideally have gotten the most out of it if you truly do master all three characters, but it's well documented at this rate that Ivysaur is by far the most popular of the three, generally considered the best in terms of results, and most people will likely pick up Pokémon Trainer purely because it's in the rotation. Squirtle and Charizard, on average anyway, only really come out during select percentage phases or if they need a recovery boost (obviously with their overall viability still being good none of this is accounting for miscellaneous momentum factors and pure human elements). With transformation-era Zelda it was even more binary; Zelda would rarely ever be used at all in favor of Sheik except for a last ditch effort for stage recoveries that almost never worked out.

In a way, Shulk's Monado Arts was arguably the purest execution of the transformation concept since it holistically asks to shift your attributes and disadvantages depending on the current playing field in a way that only affects the character themselves. Shield, Jump, Speed, etc. all more or less flow between one another in perfect harmony and changes everything from the way Shulk is forced to handle neutral, while compensating for various blind spots in pinch situations.

Pyra and Mythra seem to be taking it an extra step, aside from seemingly treating both forms as proverbially grouped up Monado Arts in their own right, they look to draw a line with the specials. That means both forms may have to jockey for utility. I think Smash's designers are well aware at this point that being fast suffices as an instantly preferable option in most situations, but I'm left wondering whether or not Pyra may have a more overt advantage when it comes to her specials. Blazing End in particular looks like it has way more applications than Mythra's specials. I'm kind of curious whether or not, much like the trailer frames it, Mythra is intended as the better option for disadvantage states despite having stats that would arguably favor her overall.

It depends solely on if Foresight can trigger on airdodges, which it probably can if it's anything like Bat Within. That would give her what is essentially the best airdodge in the game, provided you have good timing. Otherwise her disadvantage seems only slightly better than Pyra's, moreso offstage.

Speaking of, Chroma Dust could be an absolutely disgusting edgeguarding move if you don't have good air speed or can fly high to avoid what is essentially a massive shotgun blast. I alluded to this in my last post, but Mythra's specials are more situational and Pyra's seem to have more general utility. Given the way their attack speed differences are handled, being slower could actually be a blessing in disguise at times, with the slower animations causing moves to stay active longer to trip up dodge timings. Funny that of all things Shulk can change with his arts, frame data isn't one of them.

Going back to Pokemon Trainer for a second, though, matchups can also play a factor in which form gets more play. For example, we mentioned earlier that Meta Knight is uniquely well-matched against Sonic due to leaving fewer openings to attack; the same principle applies to Squirtle, in addition to screwing with his rehearsed movement with Water Gun and beating out Spin Dashes with Withdraw, making it worth it to keep using him even past the low damages he's normally used for.

It's really not a bad thing in of itself that a character in a set is favored most of the time. Trying to force equal use is how we got things like stamina in Brawl. Once again we must remind ourselves 1v1 competitive is not all there is to Smash, and at low levels you can see things like Charizard being used religiously for his Flare Blitz in free-for-alls. By the same token it wouldn't be surprising if Pyra is the one that does the heavy lifting most of the time in such modes too.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think the big challenge with transformation characters so far is that historically they've leaned so far into designing their forms as diametrically opposed in their respective strengths and weaknesses that, in practice, what tends to happen is most players default to using just one of the forms based on which one wins the perceived game of practicality the most on average. As an example, if you look at Pokémon Trainer, the only real similarity they all share between one another is that they have a dubious disadvantage state - beyond that however their respective strengths, weaknesses and general playstyles only really serve to "complement" each other more so in the theoretical sense that one's a fragile speedster, one's a mighty glacier, and the third is an all-rounder. Two of them have strong niches, and some people will argue that they're better in a lot of aspects that matter; and yes, you will ideally have gotten the most out of it if you truly do master all three characters, but it's well documented at this rate that Ivysaur is by far the most popular of the three, generally considered the best in terms of results, and most people will likely pick up Pokémon Trainer purely because it's in the rotation. Squirtle and Charizard, on average anyway, only really come out during select percentage phases or if they need a recovery boost (obviously with their overall viability still being good none of this is accounting for miscellaneous momentum factors and pure human elements). With transformation-era Zelda it was even more binary; Zelda would rarely ever be used at all in favor of Sheik except for a last ditch effort for stage recoveries that almost never worked out.

Ivysaur being the most strongest was really an early meta thing back when Ivy still had a reliable 80% kill confirm, razor leaf was more spammable and people were still figuring out how to deal with disjoints. These days most PT mains seem to think that Squirtle is the most important of the three, at least going by the consensus of PT discord and what I've seen from top players. Ironically there seems to be a lot of disagreement over if Ivysaur or Charizard is currently the weakest link - but that's just a testament to how well balanced PT currently is.

Honestly if anything PT is an example that transformation characters can work in Ultimate. All pokemon have their uses in certain match ups and none of them are fully functional on their own. Even if it's mostly just "coming out during percentage phases", that still means all three are getting good use.

 

[DJ3DS]

Ivysaur being the most strongest was really an early meta thing back when Ivy still had a reliable 80% kill confirm, razor leaf was more spammable and people were still figuring out how to deal with disjoints. These days most PT mains seem to think that Squirtle is the most important of the three, at least going by the consensus of PT discord and what I've seen from top players. Ironically there seems to be a lot of disagreement over if Ivysaur or Charizard is currently the weakest link - but that's just a testament to how well balanced PT currently is.

Honestly if anything PT is an example that transformation characters can work in Ultimate. All pokemon have their uses in certain match ups and none of them are fully functional on their own. Even if it's mostly just "coming out during percentage phases", that still means all three are getting good use.

I feel that percentage based switching is a huge Achilles heel for a lot of PT players. Particularly egregious are the players switching from Squirtle to Ivysaur as soon as they hit some middling percentage range (which isn't actually dangerous for Squirtle) despite Squirtle being significantly more suited to the matchup.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I feel that percentage based switching is a huge Achilles heel for a lot of PT players. Particularly egregious are the players switching from Squirtle to Ivysaur as soon as they hit some middling percentage range (which isn't actually dangerous for Squirtle) despite Squirtle being significantly more suited to the matchup.

Agreed. There have been times when I've just stayed Squirtle for my opponent's whole stock because Squirtle is seriously great. Did y'all know Squirtle's down tilt is a kill move? Not till suuuuper late % (like 180) but sometimes you do just rock that hard with Squirtle that staying on him works really well.

 

[KirbySquad101]

This is all likely to change when they release, but someone managed to record the frame data of Pyra's and Mythra's attacks that were shown in the trailer:

Pyra/Mythra framedata from the Direct trailer pic.twitter.com/YYWzDF0xln

— Jole proletariado 💼 (@NoSponsorXManco) February 18, 2021

Some notes:

• The start-up of Pyra's aerials starts around in the frame 11-15 range with landing lag in the 13-16 range (very comparable to ).
• The start-up of Myhtra's (only two) aerials starts around in the frame 9-12 range (somewhat comparable to ). For reference, Mythra's UAir starts about 4 frames earlier than Pyra's, hinting that the frame data difference between the two is probably bigger than what's implied in Mythra's two known aerials (also complimented by the fact that DAirs in general are one of the slower attacks in the game and are usually a character's slowest aerial by far).
• There is about an 8-9 frame difference in Pyra's FSmash (frame 21-22) compared to Myhtra's FSmash (12-13).

This isn't to suggest that Pyra's going to be worse, but considering how big the gap is in frame data just based on start-up alone, I'm thinking if Pyra is hitting hard, then she's hitting REALLY hard, or if Mythra's hitting weak, she's hitting VERY weak. Or potentially both. In a layman's terms, I'm thinking Pyra is to Mythra what Megawatt is to Ram Ram.

 

[Nah]

oh yeah that reminds me

How accurate does the frame data pulled from trailers tend to be? Like maybe this is a dumb question, but....

 

[meleebrawler]

This is all likely to change when they release, but someone managed to record the frame data of Pyra's and Mythra's attacks that were shown in the trailer:

Pyra/Mythra framedata from the Direct trailer pic.twitter.com/YYWzDF0xln

— Jole proletariado 💼 (@NoSponsorXManco) February 18, 2021

Some notes:

• The start-up of Pyra's aerials starts around in the frame 11-15 range with landing lag in the 13-16 range (very comparable to ).
• The start-up of Myhtra's (only two) aerials starts around in the frame 9-12 range (somewhat comparable to ). For reference, Mythra's UAir starts about 4 frames earlier than Pyra's, hinting that the frame data difference between the two is probably bigger than what's implied in Mythra's two known aerials (also complimented by the fact that DAirs in general are one of the slower attacks in the game and are usually a character's slowest aerial by far).
• There is about an 8-9 frame difference in Pyra's FSmash (frame 21-22) compared to Myhtra's FSmash (12-13).

This isn't to suggest that Pyra's going to be worse, but considering how big the gap is in frame data just based on start-up alone, I'm thinking if Pyra is hitting hard, then she's hitting REALLY hard, or if Mythra's hitting weak, she's hitting VERY weak. Or potentially both. In a layman's terms, I'm thinking Pyra is to Mythra what Megawatt is to Ram Ram.

It's probably only Pyra's smashes that have a truly massive difference in power compared to Mythra's given the special name they have, but just the sound difference between identical moves like utilt and uair (Mythra's has the "light sword hit", Pyra's is the "strong" version) is definitely quite the implication.

This person missed a couple of moves that were in the trailer though, and also the fact that Ray Of Punishment has a rising hit much faster than what he said is the move's startup (perhaps he confused it with Chroma Dust?). He certainly didn't miss the all-important detail that Pyra and Mythra have gasp chest physics. But then what did I expect from someone who has "Ridley Sucks" as part of their Twitter name.

Again, there's never been any two characters in Smash that have had identical moves but different frame data, even with all the clones we've had. A blanket slowdown of animation is double-edged sword of increased commitment, but also meatier active frames. If you can optimize and learn Mythra's combo paths and how much she can extend them, you can also learn where Pyra can be inserted for powerful finishing hits or mix-ups where the follow-ups are no longer true.

Beyond combos and damage, Pyra may get more mileage out a defensive playstyle: disjoints backed by power and duration are intimidating to challenge, and as I mentioned before, she looks to have more consistent out of shield options. I wonder if even her throws have a noticeable power boost?

 

[Frihetsanka]

I watched some of this:

Tweek said she looked like top 5 minimum. That's interesting, however, we know that a character can drop significantly due to some changes (compare Smash 4 Bayonetta to Ultimate Bayonetta). Until we see if her numbers are good (damage, kill potential, mobility, etc etc) it's really hard to say top 5 minimum. Would be interesting to have a character swap character as the best character in the game, I suppose. Would certainly mix up the meta quite a bit.