Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Kokiden]

early sep thoughts:
MK leo will dominate with this character. thats really all i have to say at the moment.

I hope so. That would be fun to watch.

 

[ZephyrZ]

In my opinion Sephiroth seems to just be a better Byleth, with Flare/MegaFlare/GigaFlare being a better Failnaught.

I don't really see why whenever a new character appears, people feel the need to label them as a better insert character here. Looking at past characters can be a useful lens as a starting point, but while he does bare some similarities to characters like Byleth I feel like Sephiroth is really his own beast. Byleth for instance has some slightly faster attacks in some areas, such as the frame 6 Nair we discussed recently, while Sephy's fastest aerial is at frame 9. Sephiroth really has worse frame data then a lot of superheavies - he's got a frame 14 F-tilt! In comparison, Byleth has a frame 8 F-tilt. I have a hard time looking at these numbers and saying Sephy is a strictly superior Byleth.

Not to say I can't see him being potentially better then Byleth. He's got some neat advantages to. Of course there's his far superior mobility, complimented by a nifty D-tilt that low profiles. He also has good projectiles so he can play as more of a true zoner. Despite his awful frame data I see Sephiroth as an somewhat flexible character who's particularly strong at zoning but can also do a decent job at playing bait and punish.

Now onto that Ridley comparison. Hoo boy.

• A tall character that fights like a speedy heavy character, but with significantly less weight than one would expect

Ridley isn't that light. At 107 units he's tied as 12th heaviest character with Wario, Ike and the Belmonts. He's not a true superheavy but his weight is a weakness that's significantly overblown. Sephy on the other hand is tied with Pikachu.

• Effective yet quite exploitable Up B... But it's a proper 8-way recovery.

I feel like Sephiroth's up special is far better. On top of being more flexible in how it's angled, it gives you less time to react to it, and his two varients of the move give it some more mix up potential. I can even see the move being used to land like Sakurai suggested, although with its endlag it seems like a risky mix up.

• A rather meh grab game (from what I can tell Sephy has better combo potential but his grab range is not good at all....)

Ridley actually has a really strong combo game and a solid grab game. Lots of Ridley's moves naturally lead into follow ups, including his useful neutral moves like Nair, Fair and D-tilt. D-throw is also a consistent combo throw, and at 0% D-throw -> F-tilt can set up into tech chases on some characters. Heck, he can even Nair - D-throw - Fair at low percents for an easy 37-38% combo. And while none of Ridley's regular throws kill, his side special makes up for that and means characters have to be really wary about hiding in shield too much at kill %s.

With Sephiroth I'm not sure how good his combo game is yet but with his frame data I doubt it'll be better then Ridley's. I think he's going to rely a lot on zoning and ledge trapping for his damage output.

tl:dr - I think Ridley is better as a bait & punish character with stronger combos while Sephiroth is much more of a zoner with a stronger defense.

 

[PK Gaming]

The usual initial thoughts seem to be on point, though I will say that Sephiroth is the first DLC character who feels intentionally geared towards high level play, rather than just being all-around "unique" like most DLC picks.

I'm really impressed by his movement specs, especially in one-winged angel mode. I think he has a lot of potential and i'm so glad they didn't make him a sluggish heavyweight

 

[Krysco]

My own initial thoughts when Sephiroth was first announced was that he'd be similar to Byleth, Corrin, the Belmonts and Min Min, having large range and poor mobility and frame data and I'm happy to see that in at least some regard, he's not like that with a decent run speed of 1.86 which puts him just above Hero and just below Wii Fit if I'm not mistaken. Of the characters I was expecting him to be like, the next fastest is Corrin with a run speed of 1.595. Even with that though, his other mobility stats aren't the greatest. For what use walking is in Ult where you can cancel a run with any attack, his walk speed is the 13th worst at 0.9. His air speed is tied with Terry's at 0.95 which is in the bottom 20 air speeds and while he has a high fall speed, that alone isn't usually seen as having good mobility. Ganon for example falls fast but he's not seen as mobile for it. Meshima's tweet doesn't mention air acceleration so I'm not sure how good or bad that is for Sephiroth although we do know what multiplier is applied to it when One Winged Angel is active being x1.1 added and x1.15 multiplier apparently, based on another tweet from Meshima:

Spoiler

One winged Sephiroth

Damage dealt: x1.3
Walk accel: x1.15
Walk speed: x1.15
Walk friction(?): x1.3
Dash speed: x1.2
Run accel: x1.2
Run speed: x1.25
Air accel mul: x1.15
Air accel add: x1.1
Air speed: x1.2
Air friction: x1.05
Gravity: x1.03
Fall speed: x1.05 https://t.co/5aSAKp05hh

— Meshima (@Meshima_) December 18, 2020

https://twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1339724073702543360?s=20

Speaking of OWA, I'm not much of a fan of comeback mechanics but I do like how his is static like Terry's. There's a % threshold that has to be passed in order for Sephiroth to get it and that threshold only changes based off stock difference but there's no way for him to get it any earlier than those thresholds unlike Cloud and his Limit or Joker and Arsene. He also loses it upon a stock being taken whether it's his own or yours so you also don't have to worry about dealing with it after losing a stock, again unlike Joker where an optimal strategy can be to just wait on the respawn platform to wait out Arsene's timer. I'm still not sure if Sephiroth can get OWA in the same stock though. Like for example, if the match starts and Sephiroth crosses the threshold for OWA, takes his opponents stock, loses OWA and then passes the new threshold for having a 1 stock advantage, does he get OWA again or does he have to wait till he loses his stock? Something else I'm curious about is how much his sweetspots will matter, if he'll end up with a hard time killing if he can't land them ala Marth.

Not going to give any comments on viability as I don't know the game well enough to make a worthwhile prediction plus we're stuck in an online era anyway. One last comment I will give is just that his utilt and usmash throw me off so much. Marth, Lucina, Roy, Chrom and Hero all do sword swipes for their utilts and sword stabs for their usmashes and Sephiroth is the opposite, doing a stab for an utilt and a huge swipe for an usmash. The only other character I can think of that does that is Meta Knight.

 

[NotLiquid]

Shadow Flare may be one of the best all-around utility moves added to Smash since SSB4 Dragon Lunge and a contender for best move in the game.

I don't like making any immediate sweeping assumptions but it feels like this move alone carries him.

 

[Anomilus]

Now onto that Ridley comparison. Hoo boy.

Be warned: You're talking to a Day 1 Ridley main who's well aware of his potential.

Ridley isn't that light. At 107 units he's....

See I never said Ridley was "light". I said "significantly less weight than expected". And considering the dozens of times I've heard people comment on how he's not as heavy as they think he should be, I'd say my statement's perfectly valid. It's also a belief I DON'T hold.

I feel like Sephiroth's up special is far better. On top of being more flexible in how it's angled, it gives you less time to react to it, and his two varients of the move give it some more mix up potential. I can even see the move being used to land like Sakurai suggested, although with its endlag it seems like a risky mix up.

An 8-way recovery is obviously better, no argument there. Still quite exploitable however. And by that I don't mean directly countering the move but rendering it moot in the first place. This is similar to Ridley whose Wing Blitz is not easily challenged, but it rarely matters if he's shoved too far from the ledge.

Ridley actually has a really strong combo game and a solid grab game.

Strings. Mostly strings. In terms of actual true combos Ridley gets short and brief 2-hitters; Relatively weak when compared to most other characters.

...Which currently is looking quite similar to Sephiroth. As I figured, he has more throw setups, but worse grab range. I'm trying to avoid making definitive statements on Sephiroth however because he's too new. Right now though his game plan really does share a lot of similarities to Ridley, but he has better control of his dis/advantage states. Which really can make all the difference.

tl:dr - I think Ridley is better as a bait & punish character with stronger combos while Sephiroth is much more of a zoner with a stronger defense.

Except Sephiroth can also play the bait & punish game thanks to being able to cancel his flare spells. The only reason Ridley lacks a true zoning game is because Plasma Stream is such a gimped move when not used for edgeguarding. It's not terrible for zoning, but its recovery as well as built-in weaknesses downgrade the move considerably.

Look, my post was never claiming and were practically interchangeable. Not even close. Just that they're likely to find themselves approaching and dealing with situations in similar means. Another reason for my comparisons is that I see a LOT of things in Sephiroth I would have wanted and still want for Ridley (one of those things being a DAir without crap landing lag). And yeah, my outlook could change over time as people get better with Sephy. But for now...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Everyone is kinda hyped about Sephiroth and I don't get it.

Everything he does has recovery equal to some characters entire moves or more.

 

[Firox]

So in case anyone's interested, here's my early breakdown on Sephiroth:

-He's fun and very interesting to play, but I have some serious concerns about his competitive viability
-His range is inarguably huge, but holy hell, his frame data both on startup and end lag is downright brutal. You really have to predict how your opponent will approach, react, etc. but you can't just throw out hitboxes either or you'll get punished hard. The only fast, low endlag move I think he has is Nair, but its active hitbox is really short so timing and spacing is key. I suppose it makes for a decent OoS option, but it's vastly inferior to Cloud's signature Climhazard out of shield.
-Apparently he's stupidly light. The value is 79 which is equal to that of Pikachu and Kirby except he's as tall as Mewtwo...
-His mobility is pretty good though, especially when his wing spawns after taking enough damage. The wing gives him a third jump and boosts all of his mobility stats. Cool feature, but I'm curious why Sakurai left it almost completely unexplained.
-His Up B Octaslash is, in my opinion, his funnest and flashiest move, doing about 27% damage at full charge and killing as early as about 80%.
-His projectiles are cool, but lack either speed or range, making them almost useless for camping (not that that's how he should be played, but). Without a proper reflector, I see him struggling against campers pretty hard.
-Recovery overall is really good. His Up B is more versatile than Cloud's and his third jump with the wing will make him very difficult to gimp. Unfortunately, his crazy light weight will make him easier to KO outright though. Also, his Up B sometimes has issues snapping the ledge even without fully charging which doesn't strike me as a good omen for exploitation.

Summary: After just a few hours of play, I think he's fun and interesting for a swordie, but I really would have rathered sacrifice power for frame data. Not sure if his reach is enough to compensate with the faster characters in the meta. My early prediction is lower mid tier once the dust settles. but I guess time will tell.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here is how 's attributes stats stack with the rest of the cast.

NF - Normal Form
WF - Winged Form


Weight - 79
75th-79th heaviest character. Tied with Mewtwo, Pikachu, Olimar, and Kirby as the 7th-11th lightest character in the game.

Grounded Mobility

Walk - 0.9 (NF); 1.035 (WF)
NF - 72nd fastest walk speed. In-between Bowser and Lucas.
WF - 54th fastest walk speed. In-between Min Min and Dedede.

Dash - 1.86 (NF); 2.325 (WF)
NF - 30th fastest run speed. In-between Wii Fit Trainer and Hero.
WF - 6th fastest run speed. In-between Fox and ZSS.

Initial Dash - 1.92 (NF); 2.304 (WF)
NF - 42nd fastest initial dash. In-between K. Rool and Toon Link.
WF - 4th fastest initial dash. In-between Sonic and Charizard.

Aerial Mobility

Air Speed - 0.95 (NF); 1.14 (WF)
NF - 64th-65th fastest air speed. Tied with Terry. In-between Pikachu and K. Rool.
WF - 26th fastest air speed. In-between Mii Brawler and Ike/R.O.B./Bowser Jr.

Fall Speed - 1.84 (NF); 1.932 (WF)
NF - 11th fastest faller. In-between Belmonts/Greninja and Wolf/Falco/Chroy/YLink/MMan.
WF - 5th fastest faller. In-between Dedede/Mac/PPlant and Mii Brawler.

Meshima did not provide with the statistical data on Traction and Air Acceleration, the former is unimportant in Ultimate, but the latter is fairly important.
We do have the specific multipliers for Winged Mode though.

Spoiler: Multipliers

One winged Sephiroth

Damage dealt: x1.3
Walk accel: x1.15
Walk speed: x1.15
Walk friction(?): x1.3
Dash speed: x1.2
Run accel: x1.2
Run speed: x1.25
Air accel mul: x1.15
Air accel add: x1.1
Air speed: x1.2
Air friction: x1.05
Gravity: x1.03
Fall speed: x1.05 https://t.co/5aSAKp05hh

— Meshima (@Meshima_) December 18, 2020

Overall, Sephiroth breaks the mold of DLC characters in Ultimate tending to have poor mobility. For the first time since Joker, we have a DLC character that actually has pretty good mobility overall, especially on the ground.

Winged Mode allows Sephiroth to be one of the most mobile characters in the game. While air mobility with Winged Mode doesn't seem too impressive in comparison to the monstrous ground mobility, we have to remember that Sephiroth gains an additional jump when Winged Mode is active.

Winged Mode is kept in check with Sephiroth's rather light weight, being lost after KO'ing someone, and it has a Lucario aura-esque activation method where it is also determined on stock lead/deficient. However, I think it is better designed than Lucario's aura mechanic, especially since Sephiroth isn't entirely reliant on it like Lucario does for his aura mechanic.

Something to note is that I have heard of a seemingly random glitch where Winged Mode would not properly deactivate after KO'ing someone. If this is indeed true, then I will definitely see this getting patched soon.

Will give out my more detailed analysis on him later.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

As I said before. Nintendo does not want to repeat history with Smash 4 DLC and seem hyper-focused in making sure each DLC character is balanced. Even if a DLC character to have a seemingly overtuned gimmick/trait. They are even other weakness and flaws to balance around that.


It makes sense that if they gave even superior reach on to on many attacks. They also give him comparably sluggish frame data.

They gave Sepiroth raw power combined with solid mobility AND a threatening comeback mechanic. They basically gave him level frailty basically having the same weight and large size

 

[DougEfresh]

So in case anyone's interested, here's my early breakdown on Sephiroth:

-He's fun and very interesting to play, but I have some serious concerns about his competitive viability
-His range is inarguably huge, but holy hell, his frame data both on startup and end lag is downright brutal. You really have to predict how your opponent will approach, react, etc. but you can't just throw out hitboxes either or you'll get punished hard. The only fast, low endlag move I think he has is Nair, but its active hitbox is really short so timing and spacing is key. I suppose it makes for a decent OoS option, but it's vastly inferior to Cloud's signature Climhazard out of shield.
-Apparently he's stupidly light. The value is 79 which is equal to that of Pikachu and Kirby except he's as tall as Mewtwo...
-His mobility is pretty good though, especially when his wing spawns after taking enough damage. The wing gives him a third jump and boosts all of his mobility stats. Cool feature, but I'm curious why Sakurai left it almost completely unexplained.
-His Up B Octaslash is, in my opinion, his funnest and flashiest move, doing about 27% damage at full charge and killing as early as about 80%.
-His projectiles are cool, but lack either speed or range, making them almost useless for camping (not that that's how he should be played, but). Without a proper reflector, I see him struggling against campers pretty hard.
-Recovery overall is really good. His Up B is more versatile than Cloud's and his third jump with the wing will make him very difficult to gimp. Unfortunately, his crazy light weight will make him easier to KO outright though. Also, his Up B sometimes has issues snapping the ledge even without fully charging which doesn't strike me as a good omen for exploitation.

Summary: After just a few hours of play, I think he's fun and interesting for a swordie, but I really would have rathered sacrifice power for frame data. Not sure if his reach is enough to compensate with the faster characters in the meta. My early prediction is lower mid tier once the dust settles. but I guess time will tell.

I pretty much echo all of this as far as my own thoughts on sephiroth so far, especially the combination of being so light/tall and high start up/endlag. We'll have to wait and see what his comprehensive fdata actually is like, but if he's as susceptible to whiff punishes as he seems to be at first glance, it's really going to be hard for him to keep up with the high speed and great kill power of so many in the cast.

I also do feel like his projectiles are weird. Shadow flare will be solid when/if you get it to land on the opponent, but its short range makes its utility much lower imo since about any other option within that range will probably be better/more rewarding in the situations you can reliably land a shadow flare. Flare and mega flare will probably see some use but geez the start up on either also really hurt. I can still see him as a true mid tier or perhaps upper mid at worst because of his range and I bet his ledge trapping and edgeguarding will be where he excels greatly to rectify the issues he appears to have to a decent degree, but time will tell. Either way though, he is a blast to play and playing Sephiroth is the first time I've had fun playing a DLC character in quite a while.

 

[Firox]

As I said before. Nintendo does not want to repeat history with Smash 4 DLC and seem focused in lzing each DLC character balanced. Even if a DLC cjaracter seesm to have a sepcifucaly powerful\ gimmick trait. They are even other weakness to balance around that.


It makes sense that if they gave even superior reach on to on many atttacks. They also give him comparably sluggish frame data.

They gave Sepiroth a lot of raw power combined with solid mobility AND a threatening comeback mechanic. They basically gave him level frailty being both very tall and very light.

See, my feeling is that the lack of frame data is not only more debilitating than his vulnerability, but also that his range isn't enough to compensate. The lack of attack speed doesn't even feel true to his character since Seph is canonically known for his speed and lighting fast strikes. Right now, he feels like a slower Byleth to me as far as frame data goes. I would rather they drop his power to near-Metaknight levels in exchange for a significant reduction of start up/end lag across the board. As it stands, why would I want to play Seph competitively when we've got Shulk, Cloud, Ike and Byleth with almost as good of range for less than half the lag?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Right, like I'm sorry but it sucks to ftilt someone's shield and have them casually like run up to you and do whatever they want because your tilts are -257.4

 

[Emblem Lord]

Everyone is kinda hyped about Sephiroth and I don't get it.

Everything he does has recovery equal to some characters entire moves or more.

Imagine ONLY caring about a char's potential tier placement and their tools. And I say this as someone who was once power ranked in their state in two smash games. As someone who was the highest ranked US Sagat player in SSFIV on PSN.

Have you truly lost the childlike magic and wonder of what it means to be a gamer?

To marvel at this fantastical utopia of videogame history?

You live in a world where Sonic can go head to head with Sephiroth.

Just take it all in.

 

[meleebrawler]

See, my feeling is that the lack of frame data is not only more debilitating than his vulnerability, but also that his range isn't enough to compensate. The lack of attack speed doesn't even feel true to his character since Seph is canonically known for his speed and lighting fast strikes. Right now, he feels like a slower Byleth to me as far as frame data goes. I would rather they drop his power to near-Metaknight levels in exchange for a significant reduction of start up/end lag across the board. As it stands, why would I want to play Seph competitively when we've got Shulk, Cloud, Ike and Byleth with almost as good of range for less than half the lag?

Canon Sephiroth is stupid busted in EVERY category. You know, like Akuma.

More to the point, few characters have the combination of disjointed range, power and good mobility he does.

Right, like I'm sorry but it sucks to ftilt someone's shield and have them casually like run up to you and do whatever they want because your tilts are -257.4

That's why you Shadow Flare most of the time, like how the Hero's Zap is his safest poke in normal circumstances. Even if the fingersnap does nothing to shields on it's own, you put them in a guessing game trying to figure out if you'll quickfire another one or getting ready to catch their jump.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Imagine ONLY caring about a char's potential tier placement and their tools. And I say this as someone who was once power ranked in their state in two smash games. As someone who was the highest ranked US Sagat player in SSFIV on PSN.

Have you truly lost the childlike magic and wonder of what it means to be a gamer?

To marvel at this fantastical utopia of videogame history?

You live in a world where Sonic can go head to head with Sephiroth.

Just take it all in.

I mean he's obviously cool and fun. When I mean hype I mean that people think he's really good/a tournament threat, not that he isn't fun or that I'm not happy he's in the game. This thread is for competitive discussion.

 

[blackghost]

I feel like the community is reacting the opposite to how they did Steve. With Steve they w were looking purely at potential and acting like he is this great character that needed time.
With sepiroth people are being overly cynical. And looking for reasons why he is bad.
"Well if you whiff you are screwed"
I'll be blunt if you are whiffing with sepiroth, that's on you. That is not a shortcoming of the character.
Next this character is not zoning with his blade he has multiple projectiles for that. Side b is a massive pressure tool that almost every character has to respect. The only one that doesn't I've seen so far is bayo.
Right now I'm more concerned with plausible uses for his moves which I never got with Steve. I watched esam struggle with the character but exam was trying to play him like a rushdown character.
I watched void place fox in a repeatable edge trap with no means of escape with shadow flare. This character has massive competitive potential tial but he will likely struggle online. If 2021 sees us back in person 9n a large scale he'll definitely benefit.

 

[PK Gaming]

Everyone is kinda hyped about Sephiroth and I don't get it.

Everything he does has recovery equal to some characters entire moves or more.

His comeback factor gives him 3 full jumps, 30% boost to damage and dash speed and general movement specs comparable to ZSS

Moves are laggy but thankfully has an abusable nair and unlike Byleth, he can actually control space

The character has sauce.

 

[Firox]

I feel like the community is reacting the opposite to how they did Steve. With Steve they w were looking purely at potential and acting like he is this great character that needed time.
With sepiroth people are being overly cynical. And looking for reasons why he is bad.
"Well if you whiff you are screwed"
I'll be blunt if you are whiffing with sepiroth, that's on you. That is not a shortcoming of the character.
Next this character is not zoning with his blade he has multiple projectiles for that. Side b is a massive pressure tool that almost every character has to respect. The only one that doesn't I've seen so far is bayo.
Right now I'm more concerned with plausible uses for his moves which I never got with Steve. I watched esam struggle with the character but exam was trying to play him like a rushdown character.
I watched void place fox in a repeatable edge trap with no means of escape with shadow flare. This character has massive competitive potential tial but he will likely struggle online. If 2021 sees us back in person 9n a large scale he'll definitely benefit.

I don't think anyone was complaining about whiffing moves, but rather his disadvantage on shield even at max range which is a fairly valid complaint. That said, you do have a point that side B is a move not to be underestimated. The potential pressure it offers could be critical to Seph's metagame.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I feel like the community is reacting the opposite to how they did Steve. With Steve they w were looking purely at potential and acting like he is this great character that needed time.
With sepiroth people are being overly cynical. And looking for reasons why he is bad.
"Well if you whiff you are screwed"
I'll be blunt if you are whiffing with sepiroth, that's on you. That is not a shortcoming of the character.
Next this character is not zoning with his blade he has multiple projectiles for that. Side b is a massive pressure tool that almost every character has to respect. The only one that doesn't I've seen so far is bayo.
Right now I'm more concerned with plausible uses for his moves which I never got with Steve. I watched esam struggle with the character but exam was trying to play him like a rushdown character.
I watched void place fox in a repeatable edge trap with no means of escape with shadow flare. This character has massive competitive potential tial but he will likely struggle online. If 2021 sees us back in person 9n a large scale he'll definitely benefit.

I think there's just as much to be said for how easily your character deals with your mistakes in determining how good they are as there is in anything else.

Elena in USF4 is top 2 and a part of the reason for that is because her mistakes, drops, misspaced moves, and unsafe attacks are hard to punish and exploit. Elena dropping a combo is a reset, Her sweep on block recovers low profile so you have to use very specific punishes to beat it.

"That's on you" just isn't an adequate answer because like, of course it is, in part. It's on you if you end up offstage as Doc or Mac, but there's no world where they won't eventually end up there.

Also, I would argue it's not really on you because there are a lot of holes in his zoning and attacks, the aforementioned recovery being a pretty big one.

 

[Rizen]

One way the devs balance sword characters is by having them slash along the Z axis or thrust their sword strait out. is notorious for this; his aerials all poke out in 90 degree angles. The reason is so good is she has wide swings and can hit anywhere in a circle around her. is partially balanced this way. His side attacks mostly poke out in a strait line like the belmonts. This means he'll probably struggle with small vortex characters who can slip past his slashes and stay on him. Large hurtbox characters again get the raw deal and will probably struggle vs him. His Usmash and Uair however are HUGE. I hope Uair is slow because his advantage when below you will be crazy good otherwise. With S's above average mobility stats he's looking to be a very dangerous character in a similar way to Shulk. Thank goodness they made him so light.

 

[Rran]

I went from being utterly meh when Sephiroth was revealed to genuine interest in playing in FF7. Job well done, Sakurai...

 

[TennisBall]

Shadow Flare may be one of the best all-around utility moves added to Smash since SSB4 Dragon Lunge and a contender for best move in the game.

I don't like making any immediate sweeping assumptions but it feels like this move alone carries him.

Whenever you have the spare time I would love if you could explain more on these thoughts, I'm interested to hear what you have to say on it.

 

[FruitLoop]

Some notes about sephiroth from what i've been experiencing:

- OoS is meh, rising aerial nair is shockingly good compared to other nairs of his kind like Greninja's and it can even hit some relatively short chars. But Nair isn't particularly fast and since Sephiroth's shieldgrab has very limited range I feel like most of the time he'll have to full hop OoS or roll away from pressure.

- Being faster than Mario on the ground is certainly helpful for Sephiroth since run up shield seems to be a big part of neutral for him (Tweek ABUSED this when he was trying to anti-camp his Duck Hunt partner in his 8 hour long stream fighting a singular duck hunt main lol). Despite a mediocre OoS he can still just play it safe and just shield around until he likes an opening.

- A lot of people don't realize the tech chasing potential of the character. Forward-Throw sends most non-floaties into tumble at around 30-60 which gives you access to your dash attack burst options, forward smash, regrabs, down-tilt, etc.

- Down-Tilt is a REALLY solid burst option and it can be super useful in advantage and for forcing the opponent to either jump and risk getting hit by bair and die offstage/at ledge or airdodge before sephiroth regrabs them and either sends them to a tech chase position with forward-throw or more.

- Down-Throw Forward-Air only seems true on bigger characters at DEFAULT mode at around 0-30%. Forward-Throw is your best throw and maybe Back-Throw else-wise. No kill throws is a bummer but back-throw can send people at a "react to this and don't jump in or you'll die at 60 to bair".

- Sephiroth is UNREASONABLY light. Unlike other characters like Kirby, pikachu, and even ZSS (who's 1 unit heavier than Sephiroth), he's actually not that hard to hit and disadvantage is just okay for him.

- Down-Air at ledge is FANTASTIC, it's like Ivysaur's dair at ledge but much bigger and even stronger. But it's really easy to accidentally misinput offstage and you can still try to grab ledge horizontally to avoid it usually. But in some matchups it's great! I've had a lot of success landing this option on Palutena players and characters with generally easy to 2 frame animations.

- Short characters are a nightmare for sephiroth. The low girth on some of his hitboxes like fair and suprisingly even back-air makes it so a lot of your approach options are things like pivot cancel downward angled forward-tilt or shielding around to fish for a downtilt or grab. Kirby, Meta Knight, and certainly Pikachu all seem shockingly tough for Sephiroth (although Pikachu from my experience seems okay but that's probably extremely anecdotal). Jigglypuff I haven't tried but dair loops seem like hell for sephiroth and he won't have much tools outside of nair to challenge it/

- Having nair as your main CQC move when the opponent gets too close to you is pretty solid. It confirms into fair and bair and even into itself at lower % off of fastfall nair. It's decently safe and you can choose to not fast fall so you can jump back onto a platform and reset neutral if you want to reposition yourself.

- Side-Special thingamajigie got better the more I utilized sephiroth's kit. Landing it in neutral was a pain to implement but a good trick from my experience is to attempt to charge it facing backwards then throwing it at the opponent to catch them offguard. You can probably have a temporary kill throw by upthrowing the opponent then having the projectiles hit the opponent afterwards similar to ssf2 mega man crash bomb or snake's c4s except you cant auto-detonate it.

- Neutral-special is racist honestly. Charge cancelling it with shield in neutral to have the opponent run away from you is a more than solid mixup and mix that with its HEFTY presence at ledge and we got ourselves an incredibly dumb gimmick when sephiroth lands a hit on you. Second charge neutral-special projectile can 2 frame and kill at absurd %s especially in OWA form. Fully charged neutral-special also has great application at ledge and can 2 frame some characters with slower recoveries like ROB.

- Killing seems to be a struggle as sephiroth actually. He doesn't have very solid kill moves that he can throw out in neutral besides maybe back-air and his kill confirms are more like 50/50s. He can probably play to nickel and dime and hope he gets a forward-tilt but I think its important to note that his biggest issue outside of him being light is killing at high %.

- I think hes high tier that COULD end up being top tier if tweek/mkleo optimize him enough and I don't think he'll end up lower than upper mid but yea those are my thoughts.

 

[NotLiquid]

Whenever you have the spare time I would love if you could explain more on these thoughts, I'm interested to hear what you have to say on it.

I was already writing up another post about it so I may as well put this in a quote.

The thing that fascinates me the most about Shadow Flare is how, despite primarily having offensive utility, it jockeys for Sephiroth's defensive game in lieu of a perceived weakness in terms of defense options.

In Smash, characters that have any attacks operating on a timer usually can't be expected to have a guaranteed net-gain in all states of play. Mega Man's Crash Bomber, which is slightly slower in startup, is probably the most comparable, but it's harder to hit, and can also be traded between opponents. Joker's Eiha/Eigaon is technically faster and slightly easier to space but ultimately the benefits of landing the move are strictly binary. You can't shed the damage, so there's no point in fighting it. If you get hit by it, it's just a damage penalty.

Comparatively, Shadow Flare not only conditions players to have to react to its activation in neutral, it's also a guaranteed reward whenever Sephiroth is pushing advantage, and if it's active while Sephiroth is placed in a disadvantage state, he gets a free pass to completely reset the playing field - kinda like Snake's grenades except you're not incurring a penalty for its employment, nor able to get read in certain situations (provided your character doesn't have a reflector naturally, Fox and Wolf will likely be problems). Basically, 99% of the time Sephiroth hits you with the move, he's not only won the neutral, but is also pushing advantage and recovering from disadvantage all in unison, and once Seph players figure out how to translate those detonations into some kind of meaty kill confirm he'll likely end up having some pretty violent mixups and reversals that can cheese stocks.

On any other character this move would be busted, but it feels like the designers could afford making the move like this simply because it has to compensate for Sephiroth's susceptibility to pressure.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think Sephiroth's long durations (and disadvantage on block) are getting both over- and underrated.

It's very clearly the defining weakness of his moveset. If you dismiss it, I'm not sure what to tell you. A lot of Sephiroth whiffs (of ordinary things he wants to be doing a lot) are quite punishable. Fair is never gonna AC and has 14 frames of landing lag. (Bair is 16, and doesn't even AC out of a full hop!) For contrast, Belmont/Byleth are 10/11.

Spaced f-tilt is not the worst on shield, but at 37 frames is nontrivially more commitment than similar "long" tilts. And obviously his Smashes are incredibly punishable, so much so that I'm not really talking about them in this.

The Flare family is Failnaught levels of commitment if you actually let 'er rip, but the travel speed/range means that that numerically similar amount is far more of a risk in situations where the projectile would actually have merit. Shadow Flare isn't egregious but commitment is still the biggest drawback the move has--it can even be unsafe on hit. Blade Slash is almost identical to Fox Illusion but with 27 frames of landing lag instead of 16. Octoslash is 104 frames and -47, despite not hitting until frame 36. Scintilla is a whopping 86 frames. The guaranteed attack makes it in some ways safer than other counters, but at the cost of being the highest overall commitment counter in the game.

Commitment, commitment, commitment. Everything Sepiroth does comes at an unusually high price, except for nair and his low-reward grabs.


So, where is the good news? It feels like half of Sephiroth's entire kit is designed to work around this. His movement stats are downright incredible for how much range he has. His super-quick short hop helps mask the overall lag of his go-to aerials. He always has the alternative of falling back to nair, one of the lowest commitment aerials in the game. His grab may be low reward, but it's plenty functional; between that and shield-break being auto-death for most of the cast at 0%, trying to camp out Sepiroth's pokes doesn't seem ideal.

But then getting hit isn't even as bad as we normally associated for such high-commitment moves. Most of those moves are on heavies whose punishment often involves a juggle that could very well lead to their death. We associate high commitment moves with poor disadvantage--but Sephiroth's disadvantage is quite good! It's very option rich: On top of great movement stats and possibly an extra double jump when you need it most, Sephiroth has an omnidirectional Fox Illusion and Fire Fox with vastly superior disjoint and defensive coverage. He has a plunging dair, a counter, his poor-man's-walljump fair gimmick... None of these are amazing, but it's a lot of disadvantage tools.

Also, Shadow Flare is just exactly what the doctor ordered. The moment Shadow Flare lands, five seconds from now becomes entirely about what the opponent is doing. The match ceases to be "about" Sephiroth and his commitments in this immediate future. Sure, you can do stuff and get punished, but the calculus is all out of wack. (You can even construct entirely-plausible Piranha Plant-like scenarios where you lose the battle but win the 39% war.)

Oh, and d-tilt is a lovely tool. You'll have a bad time if it's blocked, but not unusually so for this sort of utility move. It's a great fit for him in multiple ways.

 

[Firox]

I went from being utterly meh when Sephiroth was revealed to genuine interest in playing in FF7. Job well done, Sakurai...

Now you know how I felt about Persona 5 when Joker came out.

I hope Uair is slow because his advantage when below you will be crazy good otherwise.

Don't worry. It is. It's hella slow. Seph really has to anticipate the opponent's moves because of the long startup.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I hope Uair is slow because his advantage when below you will be crazy good otherwise.

The startup isn't that bad, but the endlag/landing lag, oh wow... You'd better not miss it!

 

[ZephyrZ]

weight than expected". And considering the dozens of times I've heard people comment on how he's not as heavy as they think he should be, I'd say my statement's perfectly valid. It's also a belief I DON'T hold.

So you agree comparing their wait classes is entirely superficial and doesn't reflect a similarity in their playstyles, then?

Strings. Mostly strings. In terms of actual true combos Ridley gets short and brief 2-hitters; Relatively weak when compared to most other characters.

But he has a lot of them, and they tend to lead into very advantageous positions that can lead into longer strings. He's no Princess Peach but he's going to wrack up a lot of damage really fast, which leass me to my next point.

...Which currently is looking quite similar to Sephiroth. As I figured, he has more throw setups, but worse grab range. I'm trying to avoid making definitive statements on Sephiroth however because he's too new. Right now though his game plan really does share a lot of similarities to Ridley, but he has better control of his dis/advantage states. Which really can make all the difference.

Ridley's big advatage here is that his combo starters are what he wants to go for in neutral anyway. He'd want to go for Nairs and D-tilts regardless of if they combo or not. Sephiroth doesn't really want to fish for grabs in nuetral. Nair is good but I don't think that'll be optimal to fish for either.

Except Sephiroth can also play the bait & punish game thanks to being able

But he's not going to get the same reward off bait & punish as Ridely. Ridley is able to keep nonstop offensive pressure in advantage while Sephiroth has to play more patient to get his damage in.

Look, my post was never claiming and were practically interchangeable.

If thats not what you were really trying to argue, I'll back off a bit. As I said, I do think there is merit in comparing characters your to ones you're more familiar with as long as you don't conflate the two. But in my defense, you started your last post with this.

IMO Sephiroth actually feels like a alternate and better... Ridley.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Sephy so far is looking pretty Upper Mid - Low High IMO.

Ironically might surpass Cloud. lol


Any info on the Winged Smash Attack Armor?

 

[TTTTTsd]

One particular strength of Sephiroth that I will argue is that his moveset is peppered with both tipper and clean center hits. This is fantastic for a number of reasons. Let's consider why this is good: many characters in this game who are built around the kind of range Sephiroth has either have to land tipper or clean hits, or have the same damage across all of the range. Sephiroth gets to pick: do I Ftilt to answer for when they are going to attempt to dash up or position themselves close to me, or do I poke at them with one of my stabbing moves when they are at a range? It's a really small thing but it diversifies how he can answer certain scenarios. Look at characters like Belmonts who are built around having range but only really maximize their reward when they hit at the very max range, vs. someone like Sephiroth who can pick, and even has ok tipper reward on things like Ftilt. It's a beautiful kind of option richness that he has that synergizes amazingly with his fast movement parameters for his reach, and really gives him a cool niche.

Also Shadowflare. That move is just messed up. That move on its own greatly amplifies Sephiroth's techchase reward (particularly from F-throw) to insane levels. If he guesses right and gets to charge even up to 2 orbs on you, it's bad.

 

[meleebrawler]

One particular strength of Sephiroth that I will argue is that his moveset is peppered with both tipper and clean base hits. This is fantastic for a number of reasons. Let's consider why this is good: many characters in this game who are built around the kind of range Sephiroth has either have to land tipper or clean hits, or have the same damage across all of the range. Sephiroth gets to pick: do I Ftilt to answer for when they are going to attempt to dash up or position themselves close to me, or do I poke at them with one of my stabbing moves when they are at a range? It's a really small thing but it diversifies how he can answer certain scenarios. Look at characters like Belmonts who are built around having range but only really maximize their reward when they hit at the very max range, vs. someone like Sephiroth who can pick, and even has ok tipper reward on things like Ftilt.

Also Shadowflare. That move is just messed up. That move on its own greatly amplifies Sephiroth's techchase reward (particularly from F-throw) to insane levels. If he guesses right and gets to charge even up to 2 orbs on you, it's bad.

Base is a misnomer, all of his sword moves are weaker really close unlike Roy. I don't think another sword character has specifically "center" sweetspots. Of course, the Masamune is probably the only sword long enough to make that feasible...

 

[Rizen]

On the topic of , he's got a strong advantage but he's just not outrageous enough to make up for being such a punching bag. He doesn't have the weight for it either. Ridley's a midtier and somewhat underwhelming imo.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Base is a misnomer, all of his sword moves are weaker really close unlike Roy. I don't think another sword character has specifically "center" sweetspots.

I think my point still stands, given the range on his attacks it's really unlikely you'll ever be seeing hilt/base Ftilt

 

[meleebrawler]

On the topic of , he's got a strong advantage but he's just not outrageous enough to make up for being such a punching bag. He doesn't have the weight for it either. Ridley's a midtier and somewhat underwhelming imo.

When it comes to matchups, barring heavy Belmont or Samus-calibur zoning, I seldom feel overwhelmed when playing Ridley, even against most top tiers. He has enough good, safe buttons, speed and damage per hit to stay in the game even if he gets brutalized by stronger combos. Like, most of his matchups are closer to even than you'd expect, which would certainly fit the bill of a mid-tier character.

 

[Lancerech]

Any info on the Winged Smash Attack Armor?

Fsmash and Dsmash armor starts on frame 10, Usmash armor starts on frame 14. Armor threshhold is 24%, anything that does more knocks him out of the armor.

 

[Thinkaman]

In terms of matchups... Speaking entirely in <24 hours off the cuff...

I suspect he hates , who is everything Sephiroth dislikes in a single character. Fast and low dash, threatening kill power that loves tall targets, solid mid-range projectile, and one of the best anti-Shadow Flare moves in the game that works at any %.

also takes Shadow Flare off the table, but otherwise hates being outranged and isn't dashing in on much. Probably good for Sephiroth.

doesn't wreck Shadow Flare as much as you'd think--it does nothing for them when they are at 0%, and Sephiroth is free to continue to apply pressure while they obsess over healing. More so for Ness, the odds might often end up in Sephiroth's favor.

Revenge is... pretty good. It's no Rebel Guard or Bucket, but it's probably the fourth best response after PSI Magnet. (And it works at 0%) You will only Revenge the first bolt, but you won't get hit by the other two. And Revenging one Shadow Flare is still enough for more than a 2.0x multiplier! Against a quick, single Shadow Flare, Revenge is probably the best. But note, Revenge on Flare is pretty bad, and Revenge on its bigger brothers will even still get hit (and wrecked) by the followup explosion. But Revenge is great agaisnt big slow swords, and Incineroar's low kill percents means less time dealing with wing mode.

Bounce is obviously amazing when you have it, and you have a little bit of time to fish for it when needed. While Hero really dislikes being outranged and outsped, his projectiles are pretty great for the range Sephiroth would prefer to fight. Probably a good matchup for Hero.

Pocket is okay. Obviously it takes the other Flares completely off the table, but that's true for almost any reflector. But while Pocket is a better-than-average defensive answer to Shadow Flare, it's not great. A single Shadow Flare is nothing to write home about even with damage doubled. And unlike other reflectors, Pocketing gives no coverage from the incoming punish Sephiroth was going to be trying regardless--not a relevant disadvantage for almost any other projectile in the game. Shadow Flare might be the one projectile where getting to use it later at a time of your choice isn't better than reflecting it immediately.

That said, Slingshot is great against Sephiroth, it really shines. So I think the matchup still favors them? And having a "merely better than average" answer to Shadow Flare is still a big net positive, despite downplaying it.

Other low commitment reflectors are also a helpful tool against Shadow Flare but hardly take it off the table. For some higher commitment ones, it's less common that they will offer a meaningful improvement to your situation.




and are also infamously low and quick, but don't have the brutal level of punishes that Arsene brings to any commitment. Both are also vulnerable to Shadow Flare, so it's less concerning.

I was worried that tall characters like would have an especially bad time against SH fair/bair, but it's still too high; all tall characters are much shorter when dashing, which helps.

can out-do Sephiroth at his strengths, and even hedge his bets with Armor when Shadow Flare is on the table. Seems fine for Shulk.

has powerful mid-range stuff (like Joker or Hero) that Sephiroth probably hates. I have no idea if this will make up for the speed issue. One of the matchups I have the least idea of.

probably hates that sword, which seems like an amazing anti-float tool.

sounds favorable for Sonic? Going off my heuristic that Sephiroth hates run speed, I don't immediately see how it couldn't.

and have the burst punishment to make the most of Sephiroth's commitments, like Joker. They'll hit hard and kill him early.

seems fine; he's super fast, runs low, and hits hard up-front. He doesn't care about Sephiroth's disadvantage tools, but he loves Sephiroth's low weight; "You mean I only have to land as many side-Bs as I do to kill Pikachu, except they are as easy to land as vs heavies?" Even Shadow Flare matters less in this matchup, because Mac exchanges are so fast and viseral. Less wing time is great too, and Sephiroth has fewer options than most for taking KO Punch off the table.

isn't so lucky. This just seems horrible for him. What are you going to do to get in, Wizkick? Ganon is just big, slow, and the perfect victim for Sephiroth to oppress. and probably doesn't have a fun time either, and I can't imagine being happy.

hates a lot about Sephiroth. She hates uair, she hates u-smash, she hates fair and bair, she hates Shadow Flare. Pound against Lucina is one thing, but against Sephiroth-level disjoint it won't help you much. All her favorite edgeguarding moves get eaten by Octoslash, and he's not really jugglable. If she had Smash 4 SHAD, it would actually help a great deal in this matchup; alas.

 

[Firox]

As a main, I'm feeling pretty good about the matchup right now. Seph has good horizonal range on the ground but he doesn't have much of an answer to Gren's landing Nair and Fair, especially when spaced properly. Gren is fast with a low profile which gives Seph trouble with air to ground interactions. As for shadowflare, Gren can actually farm Substitutes off it in a way similar to Olimar's pikmin. Shuriken also helps to out-camp shadowflare, ftilt and dtilt. Definitely an advantage for the ninja frog.

 

[meleebrawler]

As a main, I'm feeling pretty good about the matchup right now. Seph has good horizonal range on the ground but he doesn't have much of an answer to Gren's landing Nair and Fair, especially when spaced properly. Gren is fast with a low profile which gives Seph trouble with air to ground interactions. As for shadowflare, Gren can actually farm Substitutes off it in a way similar to Olimar's pikmin. Shuriken also helps to out-camp shadowflare, ftilt and dtilt. Definitely an advantage for the ninja frog.

Can't Sephiroth just Scintilla right back if Greninja tries to Substitute like that?

 

[Firox]

Can't Sephiroth just Scintilla right back if Greninja tries to Substitute like that?

Not really. Substitute slows time so he would have to anticipate with his Scintilla. Even if he did, if Seph is close enough, Gren can angle the counter to come down from above or explode up from underneath. And Substitute's counter attack also has invincibility frames so it could probably break through Scintilla regardless, but I would have to experiment to be sure.