Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[meleebrawler]

My first post in forever, here's a few hot takes on recent points of discussion:

I really like what they've done with Steve, though he wasn't a character I was ever excited for, his implementation is very cool. That being said, my gut feeling is that he isn't going to be very good. I think his advantage state looks quite good, but how does he get into advantage? Many of his buttons are pretty slow or heavily situational, and those that aren't seem to have pretty short range, which when combined with at best average mobility doesn't seem too threatening to much of the cast. I actually think Gold Weapons might secretly be really good. Like for example, if gold dash attack is safe, that's a big gamechanger, even if you lose power for it. I'm looking forward to trying him out but I'm a little pessimistic.

Gold equipment is the most fragile stuff on Earth and the requisite ore for it isn't all that common either. There is no way that will be a staple of Steve's game. The best use I see for it is giving him a really fast spike in forward aerial.

I believe you're just looking at things too traditionally. Steve doesn't use his frame data to open people up, but rather by creating obstructions they have to navigate if they are to stop him from gathering resources, limiting their options thusly. These blocks also let him use his more flexible ground moveset at varying altitudes.

 

[TheMightyP]

Japan had an offline tourney recently, here are the results

Hero is High Tier, and you can't tell me otherwise.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Japan had an offline tourney recently, here are the results
View attachment 288981

Well this is an odd looking top 16, even by Japan's standards.

The double Falcon at 9th place.
Double Sheik and double Shulk at top 8.
Hero placing 3rd (and by a player I never even heard of before).
And Yoshi taking the victory.

Despite it being only 96 entrants, this is an interesting tourney to look at.
ESAM did say that Japan is going to get a big head start in terms of advancing the offline meta than the USA, and it seems like this isn't going to change anytime soon.

 

[TheMightyP]

Well this is an odd looking top 16, even by Japan's standards.

The double Falcon at 9th place.
Double Sheik and double Shulk at top 8.
Hero placing 3rd (and by a player I never even heard of before).
And Yoshi taking the victory.

Despite it being only 96 entrants, this is an interesting tourney to look at.
ESAM did say that Japan is going to get a big head start in terms of advancing the offline meta than the USA, and it seems like this isn't going to change anytime soon.

They're definitely gonna advance the Hero meta giving by that 3rd place (Akak beat Kome btw). That character is mad slept on, and it's about time somehow shows that he isn't a low tier.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Doesn't that show that there is a big variety of characters in Japan?
Meaning, how consistent are the results of that Hero player? As far as I'm aware, most players in Japan have very varied results.

 

[TheMightyP]

Doesn't that show that there is a big variety of characters in Japan?
Meaning, how consistent are the results of that Hero player? As far as I'm aware, most players in Japan have very varied results.

Yeah Japam is pretty hard to get cinsistent results because of how stacked and tightly pacled that region is.

Now, as for the Hero player, to my knowledge, he's known for grinding matchups on stream, like a lot, but I'm not sure if he ever placed this high befofe.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Speaking of I'm not all too impressed with her, but I also don't think she's bad by any means. She falls into a similar area as Belmonts. Her strengths and weaknesses are extremely polarizing, and while she does have relevant matchups she can definitely hold her own in, she also has matchups that seem borderline unfair for her as well.

Her weaknesses hold her back a lot, and stop her from being higher than mid tier IMO, but her strengths are also very strong and she does have good counterpick potential against a decent amount of characters.

Some of her main weaknesses I've noticed:

• Her recovery (while not as bad as I initially thought) is still fairly mediocre, can be body blocked, and it's really only decent vertically. If she's forced to recover high or forced to recover horizontally, she's probably getting edgeguarded more often than not.
• Her disadvantage is one of the worst in the game due to her frame data being mediocre, her hurtbox being fairly large, and her weight being high. She will usually die off of losing neutral only once or twice against a lot of the cast, which means that it's very easy to make comebacks against her.
• She has a very noticeable blindspot that a lot of characters can exploit between the hitbox of her arm moves and her. are all really good at exploiting this weakness thanks to their projectile(s), small hurtboxes, and/or good mobility.
• Her onstage kill power really isn't that great. Her up-smash isn't that strong, her d-smash has decently sized sourspot while also being a fairly unsafe move to throw out, and her f-smash variants that kill are slow and predictable. In order to kill, she really needs to force the opponent offstage, and her options of doing that still aren't even that great, since her best option in theory (back throw) is locked behind one of the slowest and most predictable grabs in the game.

In terms of matchups, I'd say that there are good characters she does fine against like (), I don't think is awful for her, and she seems to do pretty well against a lot of the zoners lower down on the tier list.

However, she also I think struggles against a lot of other meta relevant characters like and even some more obscure ones like .

To me, her weaknesses being as exploitable as they are means that people will probably start to figure her out fairly quickly after offline events start again, unless a top player picks her up and proves me wrong. She's by no means a bad character, but definitely a polarizing one, that is probably best used as a counterpick against some specific characters.

 

[NotLiquid]

Min Min's design isn't comparable to the Belmonts at all beyond the fact that they have long range coverage. The Belmonts are designed entirely around set play zoning, they're meant to ensnare and capitalize on their advantage state the longer they're not being engaged, and their only real options at close range involves resetting into neutral. Min Min's hitbox data, overall frame data and move set makes her playstyle more akin to that of a whiff punisher. She's, quite literally, a melee fighter who happens to have long range, and the way which the designers emphasize that is by granting her mobility to offset recovery on her pivotal longer-reaching moves. Being able to jump and move is the overall answer to having character safety on standard attacks, and the dirty secret here is that aforementioned data is also why her oft-touted "blind spot" is actually not that much of a blind spot unless there isn't a floor underneath her.

It's also why this:

• Her onstage kill power really isn't that great. Her up-smash isn't that strong, her d-smash has decently sized sourspot while also being a fairly unsafe move to throw out, and her f-smash variants that kill are slow and predictable. In order to kill, she really needs to force the opponent offstage, and her options of doing that still aren't even that great, since her best option in theory (back throw) is locked behind one of the slowest and most predictable grabs in the game.

is nonsense, when Min Min not only kills with her tilts, but also has some of the best ground-to-air attacks in the game, with a NAir that also kills early and has a notorious safety / coverage ratio. Killing is on the absolute bottom list of Min Min's issues, and claiming that her best option for killing is back throw is a pretty big swing-and-a-miss in terms of understanding the character.

If we want to talk about flaws, her overall shield reward is a bit lacking. Her shield pressure overall is pretty good, make no mistake about that, but she's often forced to microspace a lot upon hit confirming on a blocking opponent, which can mean she needs to give up some degree of stage control. Granted her exceptionally good dash attack ends up being another one of her solid burst options in this case as a means of answering back.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Min Min's design isn't comparable to the Belmonts at all beyond the fact that they have long range coverage. The Belmonts are designed entirely around set play zoning, they're meant to ensnare and capitalize on their advantage state the longer they're not being engaged, and their only real options at close range involves resetting into neutral. Min Min's hitbox data, overall frame data and move set makes her playstyle more akin to that of a whiff punisher. She's, quite literally, a melee fighter who happens to have long range, and the way which the designers emphasize that is by granting her mobility to offset recovery on her pivotal longer-reaching moves. Being able to jump and move is the overall answer to having character safety on standard attacks, and the dirty secret here is that aforementioned data is also why her oft-touted "blind spot" is actually not that much of a blind spot unless there isn't a floor underneath her.

It's also why this:



is nonsense, when Min Min not only kills with her tilts, but also has some of the best ground-to-air attacks in the game, with a NAir that also kills early and has a notorious safety / coverage ratio. Killing is on the absolute bottom list of Min Min's issues, and claiming that her best option for killing is back throw is a pretty big swing-and-a-miss in terms of understanding the character.

If we want to talk about flaws, her overall shield reward is a bit lacking. Her shield pressure overall is pretty good, make no mistake about that, but she's often forced to microspace a lot upon hit confirming on a blocking opponent, which can mean she needs to give up some degree of stage control. Granted her exceptionally good dash attack ends up being another one of her solid burst options in this case as a means of answering back.

I agree. I haven't even put much time into Min Min compared to most of the other characters I play, and killing is easy. Loads of options for edgeguarding, and Megawatt is ez pz for onstage kills. Yes, Megawatt is slow. It's also very safe.

 

[SwagGuy99]

is nonsense, when Min Min not only kills with her tilts, but also has some of the best ground-to-air attacks in the game, with a NAir that also kills early and has a notorious safety / coverage ratio. Killing is on the absolute bottom list of Min Min's issues, and claiming that her best option for killing is back throw is a pretty big swing-and-a-miss in terms of understanding the character.

If we want to talk about flaws, her overall shield reward is a bit lacking. Her shield pressure overall is pretty good, make no mistake about that, but she's often forced to microspace a lot upon hit confirming on a blocking opponent, which can mean she needs to give up some degree of stage control. Granted her exceptionally good dash attack ends up being another one of her solid burst options in this case as a means of answering back.

OK, this is fair, I should have worded this better.

Min Min has a decent variety of strong kill moves that aren't up-smash, down-smash, or back throw. The problem I think she suffers from isn't necessarily that her moves don't have good kill power. The actual issue I think she has is that f-tilt and f-smash are not all that fast and are somewhat easy to avoid for a lot of characters if they aren't at ledge or offstage. She does have a good deal of maneuverability on these moves, which is nice, but if the opponent puts themselves at a range where the move will take time to reach them after the startup, they are fairly easy to react to (with the exception of Ram Ram which is weakest ARM if I recall correctly). So while she does have decent kill power, throwing out her kill moves when the opponent is onstage at a distance from her is risky.

I forgot about her n-air, and it is decently strong. She might struggle to kill heavier characters with it, but it's probably her best kill move onstage.

I think in general though, Min Min benefits more from trying to killing her opponents offstage as she has much more potential for early kills and gimps this way. Her n-air is decently strong, but the Mega Watt variant (the one that is the best at killing) is still somewhat slow and is somewhat predictable in some scenarios, and her other variants aren't nearly as strong. I think that on paper, Min Min wants to be forcing opponents offstage early because she has the potential to take stocks extremely quickly that way. The problem is that if her opponent plays grounded at a bit of a distance from her, she doesn't have the greatest options to do that safely.

To sum this up, I think Min Min struggles to get her advantage state started if her opponents play more passively and react to what she does. I think a lot of her options are telegraphed and her kill moves are predictable and reactable in some scenarios, but I misspoke when I said her kill power was straight up bad.

 

[DougEfresh]

My thoughts on Min Min are that the character's future likely looks neither particularly bright nor especially bleak.

The capacity to constantly force an option or approach from the opponent with her arms and staying mobile is clearly very powerful, and so is being able to occupy so much space from a safe position while ledge trapping and edgeguarding, but I feel that, in time, having a limited ability to tilt her arms up and down while pushing for a ledge trap or edgeguard will limit the extent to which she can consistently push her advantage. Eventually, players are going to be able to mix up their recoveries better to navigate off-stage disadvantage more effectively, and I do share SwagGuy's concern of 's disadvantage state being heavily exploited due to being heavy with low overall mobility and no particularly fast get off me options to break combos. Her fragility off-stage is another thing I suspect will be exploited more as time goes on too, though that's more character-depedent.

Shielding and jumping are the two options that will get you destroyed by Min Min if you use them hastily as panic options, but using them intelligently does appear to make Min Min suffer considerably more, especially if you're consistent with parrying.

I know the recent Japanese offline tournament that was discussed briefly here is a drop in a bucket and can't reliably be used to look into the future of the character's prospects, but seeing Takera's dominate over Mao's left an impression on me. I do think Mao got visibly flustered as the set went on, getting shield broken and combo'd quite a bit more than realistically would be the case when the match up is played more optimally, but it did showcase how effective a patient neutral combined with consistent maximization of your advantage state (once you find your openings) can be against Min Min. If you watched the set, you'll notice Takera also did a remarkable job avoiding 2-frames and edgeguards from Min Min while off-stage, despite Ken having a pretty linear and exploitable recovery, and that's what I expect to see happen on a more widespread scale as time goes on. Her rather large frame is something I also see as a potential issue, as it makes landing kill confirms easier on Min Min due to a larger hurtbox (similar to ).

Within the first 2-3 weeks following 's release, I recall estimating her to be around upper mid tier to low high tier, and I think at this point I feel a bit more confident in that preliminary assessment. She's only been out for 3.5 months, so I'm certainly willing to give things more time for me to be proven wrong, but I still think she'll be too polarizing to rise much higher than that barring any major discoveries or adaptations to the character's playstyle(s), gameplan, and/or tech.

There are a number of characters in this game who have notable mobility and combo game advantages over Min Min, with equally strong (if not better) punish games after zone breaking as she has from winning neutral and launching opponents off-stage, and I think that's going to make for an extremely stressful uphill battle for Min Min to be pushed as a viable solo main. Secondary and CP potential definitely looks high though, and in a game with as many match ups to know as Ultimate, that's certainly a good niche to fulfill in the meta, particularly since several top and high tier characters have relatively weak disadvantage states off-stage.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Within the first 2-3 weeks following 's release, I recall estimating her to be around upper mid tier to low high tier, and I think at this point I feel a bit more confident in that preliminary assessment. She's only been out for 3.5 months, so I'm certainly willing to give things more time for me to be proven wrong, but I still think she'll be too polarizing to rise much higher than that barring any major discoveries or adaptations to the character's playstyle(s), gameplan, and/or tech.

There are a number of characters in this game who have notable mobility and combo game advantages over Min Min, with equally strong (if not better) punish games after zone breaking as she has from winning neutral and launching opponents off-stage, and I think that's going to make for an extremely stressful uphill battle for Min Min to be pushed as a viable solo main. Secondary and CP potential definitely looks high though, and in a game with as many match ups to know as Ultimate, that's certainly a good niche to fulfill in the meta, particularly since several top and high tier characters have relatively weak disadvantage states off-stage.

I feel the same. Min Min has great strengths, but I foresee most, if not all top tiers and a chunk of the high tiers doing pretty well against her. They're all fast for the most part, and the ones that aren't (, , , and to name a few) have such strong projectile games that I don't think they'll struggle much. Yes, I am aware Min Min's up smash reflects projectiles, but that's a laggy enough option that it's pretty easily played around. I think the top of the pack will go even with Min Min at worst, so barring substantial buffs, she likely won't be top tier. But she's a very good character nonetheless, so I also don't see her being worse than lower high tier.

 

[Cheryl~]

All those zoners you guys list all lose to Min Min. The only ones who don’t have some sort of insane CQC option that can get past her ARMs (Link N-Air singlehandedly makes that matchup even) or are Young Link who doesn’t really care about arms breaking his projectiles cause he has zero endlag and can just fire more. And even then, Min Min-YL is pretty even imo, which goes to show you just how insane of a counterzoning pick this character is.

While she may falter more against the rushdown side of the cast, her amazing neutral and ability to take stage control make these matchups a lot better than people think. Yeah, Fox for example may just mash in her face and rush her down, but Min Min just needs a good read, or a great edgeguard to bring it all back.

I think the way ESAM uses her as a secondary is optimal due to how many characters she can shut down for your main who can help with the iffy matchups she has. She’s a counter pick character that’s actually good, unlike Hero and Byleth. And she’s very good at that.

 

[Lacrimosa]

https://twitter.com/ayamiyuki031015/status/1315606315012554752

Looks like an Inkling MU chart? Not sure since I can't speak japanese, so not sure what the 2nd list is about.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

https://twitter.com/ayamiyuki031015/status/1315606315012554752

Looks like an Inkling MU chart? Not sure since I can't speak japanese, so not sure what the 2nd list is about.

Google Translate says " Left, now right, before the joker comes out"

2nd one doesn't have Joker and beyond, so likely just a comparison between then and now.

 

[SwagGuy99]

https://twitter.com/ayamiyuki031015/status/1315606315012554752

Looks like an Inkling MU chart? Not sure since I can't speak japanese, so not sure what the 2nd list is about.

The google translation says the left one is current and the right one was pre-Joker.

I think the tiers are

• I think this means better than advantage or something along these lines
• Advantage
• Slight Advantage
• Even
• Slight Disadvantage
• Disadvantage
• Impossible
• Not sure what the bottom one is but it might be for characters that they weren't sure on

Compared to ProtoBanhams chart there's a few things I'm noticing that are very different on this chart. This one is much more optimistic overall. The placements of Peach, Falcon, Luigi, Ness, and Bowser specifically are looking much more optimistic.

I personally feel like this chart is overly optimistic on some characters, specifically Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, and Palutena.

 

[Space thing]

The google translation says the left one is current and the right one was pre-Joker.

I think the tiers are

• I think this means better than advantage or something along these lines
• Advantage
• Slight Advantage
• Even
• Slight Disadvantage
• Disadvantage
• Impossible
• Not sure what the bottom one is but it might be for characters that they weren't sure on

Compared to ProtoBanhams chart there's a few things I'm noticing that are very different on this chart. This one is much more optimistic overall. The placements of Peach, Falcon, Luigi, Ness, and Bowser specifically are looking much more optimistic.

I personally feel like this chart is overly optimistic on some characters, specifically Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, and Palutena.

Just confirming this: Yes this accurate. The top one is like "big advantage" basically, and the bottom is indeed pretty much "idk."

In case you want to compare lists though, the right one (the before joker one) has the opposite order (top is impossible, second from bottom is big advantage). Miis are "mystery."

 

[NotLiquid]

A lot of Inkling mains have felt for a while that Palutena is the one top tier MU that Inkling does best at, so her placement on that chart isn't really a mystery. Palutena's walling ability doesn't really do much to stop Inkling's approach. Because of how she commits to a lot of her moves, Palutena isn't a fan of going up against characters who excel at footsies (a problem Luigi shares as well on top of occasional RNG reliance when forced off-stage), and unlike a lot of other speedy characters, Inkling has a really versatile recovery that makes Palutena's edgeguards a whole lot less surefire.

Looking at historical MU data on Bowser also doesn't paint the entirely best picture of his performance either, despite the character exacerbating Inkling's stock taking troubles due to his bulk. It's a match up Inkling players got a whole lot smarter with after Cosmos got stomped by Leon - and that includes Cosmos himself.

Snake is one of the more interesting characters on the chart considering his average-at-best aerial prowess, poor recovery, high up throw kill confirm percentage range, and Inkling being one of the few characters that sort of forces Snake to be smart about his Grenade usage, yet Levi only seems confident enough to rank that as an even MU.

Pac-Man is hell. I'd probably put Yoshi closer to that range too but that's purely from theorycraft.

I largely agree with this MU list way more than ProtoBanham's, which was too egregious in more spots than one - chief one of which involved listing Ness as an "impossible" MU for her. His chart felt like it spoke more toward ProtoBanham's inherent bias of Inkling as a secondary pick, since he's primarily a Lucina player.

 

[Aaron1997]

Good news!
You can select which biome you want to play in by using the following commands. https://t.co/JCg9va8BLx

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) October 12, 2020

BIG NEWS

You can select the stage layout for the Minecraft stage by inputting a command on the Stage Select screen. Now the question is, is this exclusive for Minecraft World or is this a new feature for stages with multiple layouts (Mario Maker, Arena Ferox).

This could also be a big deal for Minecraft Would itself if hazards off removes the Blocks

 

[MrGameguycolor]

You can select the stage layout for the Minecraft stage by inputting a command on the Stage Select screen. Now the question is, is this exclusive for Minecraft World or is this a new feature for stages with multiple layouts (Mario Maker, Arena Ferox).

Oh boy.
If that's the case, stage legality discussions are gonna be fun!

 

[Arthur97]

I kind of doubt this will impact other stages.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Wise (the best Luigi player in Chile) made a matchup chart for Luigi before 9.0, and I think this is the most accurate representation of where he currently stands in the meta in terms of matchups that I personally have seen. If I had to make changes to this, I'd move and all down a tier from where they currently are and could maybe move up a tier, but overall, I heavily agree with most of this. I think could potentially be a -2 matchup, but I do think and are probably harder than her as this chart shows.

MU Chart antes del parche pic.twitter.com/KzVXA3NuKq

— Wise (@WiseSBC) October 8, 2020

 

[Minix0]

Oh boy.
If that's the case, stage legality discussions are gonna be fun!

inb4 its banned immediately

 

[DougEfresh]

Wise (the best Luigi player in Chile) made a matchup chart for Luigi before 9.0, and I think this is the most accurate representation of where he currently stands in the meta in terms of matchups that I personally have seen. If I had to make changes to this, I'd move and all down a tier from where they currently are and could maybe move up a tier, but overall, I heavily agree with most of this. I think could potentially be a -2 matchup, but I do think and are probably harder than her as this chart shows.

MU Chart antes del parche pic.twitter.com/KzVXA3NuKq

— Wise (@WiseSBC) October 8, 2020

Idk too much about Luigi's match ups or Chile as a region, but I really don't see how is +1 for him. I'd put it in even or +1 in Banjo's favor. He can air camp with grenade and blow himself up with it to get out of the 0-death combos and has a strong projectile walling game against Luigi. His bair, nair, ftilt and dtilt are solid disjoints that can poke away at him at a safe distance to prevent Luigi's superior frame data for boxing from becoming problematic. Up air can also be used for juggling to some extent, and Banjo can use his projectiles to ledge trap and gimp Luigi while he's off-stage and trap his landings when he's above us (one of 's greatest strengths is his ability to force a bad option, especially with landings, and then hard punish those options or continue to apply pressure until he forces his opponent into the corner where he can set up ledge traps). Again, Idk too much about Chile and its meta as far as a smash region goes (although I've heard they're very good) and maybe Wise knows something I don't, but I just think Banjo has the tools to make it hell for Luigi if he's dedicated to playing more patiently and like a zoner in the match up.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Good news!
You can select which biome you want to play in by using the following commands. https://t.co/JCg9va8BLx

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) October 12, 2020

BIG NEWS

You can select the stage layout for the Minecraft stage by inputting a command on the Stage Select screen. Now the question is, is this exclusive for Minecraft World or is this a new feature for stages with multiple layouts (Mario Maker, Arena Ferox).

This could also be a big deal for Minecraft Would itself if hazards off removes the Blocks

Gosh I wish it would work for other stages but I have a feeling Minecraft World will be the only one it'll work on. A shame, since Arena Ferox has a good layout and Gamer has a few good ones iirc. Oh well, Small Battlefield is a sign that they're listening to the competitive side more, so maybe they'll do this for other stages in the future. I'd be surprised to get it with other stages now, though.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Idk too much about Luigi's match ups or Chile as a region, but I really don't see how is +1 for him. I'd put it in even or +1 in Banjo's favor. He can air camp with grenade and blow himself up with it to get out of the 0-death combos and has a strong projectile walling game against Luigi. His bair, nair, ftilt and dtilt are solid disjoints that can poke away at him at a safe distance to prevent Luigi's superior frame data for boxing from becoming problematic. Up air can also be used for juggling to some extent, and Banjo can use his projectiles to ledge trap and gimp Luigi while he's off-stage and trap his landings when he's above us (one of 's greatest strengths is his ability to force a bad option, especially with landings, and then hard punish those options or continue to apply pressure until he forces his opponent into the corner where he can set up ledge traps). Again, Idk too much about Chile and its meta as far as a smash region goes (although I've heard they're very good) and maybe Wise knows something I don't, but I just think Banjo has the tools to make it hell for Luigi if he's dedicated to playing more patiently and like a zoner in the match up.

I'm not too sure as to why it's listed at +1 for Luigi, as it's not one I have much experience in. From what I've seen, most Luigi matchup charts seem to have him in even or +1 for Luigi though. If I had to guess, it's probably a lot to do with his inability to do much against Luigi if he's being pressured up close. I also think Banjo does lack some consistency in walling Luigi out as his normals that he will be walling out with (with the exception of f-tilt and maybe b-air depending on the spacing) aren't that safe on shield I don't think which is something that Banjo can be punished hard for.

I do agree with most of what you're saying here though, it seems like an evenish matchup to me on paper, but I don't have too much experience against Banjo so I could be totally off here.

 

[DougEfresh]

I'm not too sure as to why it's listed at +1 for Luigi, as it's not one I have much experience in. From what I've seen, most Luigi matchup charts seem to have him in even or +1 for Luigi though. If I had to guess, it's probably a lot to do with his inability to do much against Luigi if he's being pressured up close. I also think Banjo does lack some consistency in walling Luigi out as his normals that he will be walling out with (with the exception of f-tilt and maybe b-air depending on the spacing) aren't that safe on shield I don't think which is something that Banjo can be punished hard for.

I do agree with most of what you're saying here though, it seems like an evenish matchup to me on paper, but I don't have too much experience against Banjo so I could be totally off here.

I can get behind even, although if being honest, I'm not particularly experienced in the match up either. Luigi's cqc seems to make it volatile, but Banjo can disengage better than a lot of characters when he needs to, which counts for a lot in the MU. I don't think Banjo should be doing many landing aerials, since you're right that they're not super safe and Luigi's up smash is a great anti-air that kills well. Nair has 16f of landing lag with very little shield stun, and bair has 18f of landing lag with only a marginally better ability to shield poke. Instead, aerials should most likely be used to keep Luigi above Banjo (nair and uair) or create/maintain horizontal space with bair and fair so he can set up a wall with rear egg and egg shots. Utilt is a solid anti-air that often trades with other moves against opponents landing directly on top of Banjo, and usmash can be a good option for that at kill percents too.

Luigi having even worse air speed than Banjo, plus being rather floaty, is what makes me think his keep away game is pretty strong in the match up and although it's common to see Banjo constantly spamming nades and eggs, he can pull back on those options a bit more till Luigi feels more safe to try to go in and then use the projectiles to occupy the space he's trying to enter, giving Luigi very little, if any, time to react and avoid the traps and set ups (and even if he does avoid them, he's likely getting punished for whatever defensive option he chose). Baiting out the tether grab is another obvious and strong tactic that Banjo can get hard punishes on Luigi for as well even if that is harder to force out of a better player. I'm not even sure I'm familiar with a high level example of the MU though, so my speculation is bound to be as good as yours for the time being.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Looking at Japan's viewpoint of the meta, I'm unable to connect the dots here on a lot of instances, but Min Min's placement ain't one of them.

If we're talking theorycraft and excluding online results, could absolutely be anywhere on the tier list, including top 5. There is very little offline data that we can go off of that justifies Min Min being in a particular spot, whether it's top, high, mid, low, etc. Where you see her entirely depends on how much you ratio her advantages/potential to her disadvantages/weaknesses and we wouldn't really know if it's right or wrong.

If we're talking solely online results, Min Min makes a pretty strong case for being top of the pack. Her dominance in Japan courtesy of Yusuky, Shuton, Pochi, etc. has been mentioned, but this is on top of three major players over at the US putting in work with her right now (ESAM, Dabuz, and even Salem to a certain extent). And from how I've seen Japan Min Min players perform, I feel like they're optimizing her in a way that I don't think most of us caught on just yet.

Looking at Dabuz's first-to-10 set against Maister, by far the biggest issue I noticed was that in an attempt to keep Maister out, Dabuz kept pushing himself in a corner to give him the distance needed to space out G&W. In doing so, however, he relinquished to Maister complete control of the stage, giving him all the space and room he needed to get in on Min Min in the process.

The way I'm seeing Yusuky play, the only notable times he attempts that is when Min Min already has complete control of the stage to begin with (i.e. the opponent is offstage), even against comborific characters you would WANT to keep out normally like Yoshi or Ken. You know what's scarier than a Min Min that's just running to the end of the stage and throwing out arms? A Min Min that maybe throws out one or two arms and then decides "maybe I feel like jumping NAir to catch someone fully airborne, or maybe I feel like running up and throwing out an USmash to catch the opponent's jump, or maybe I feel like DTilt-ing to catch someone trying to run up to me or to catch a landing or to even just zip past the opponent". And then after a few mix-ups, you can just throw out a Megawatt FSmash out of nowhere, and BOOM, you got your KO. And if we're to look at her ground moves, they're either fast (USmash), safe (NAir), cross up shields (DTilt, Dash Attack), or jumpstart combos (DTilt, NAir). I still think DTilt, UAir, and NAir are criminally underrated as combo starters, and the amount of damage she can get off of them is nothing to sneeze at.

She's still got major problems in disadvantage, but depending on how scary her advantage (her ledge play can be legitimately unfair) and neutral can be, I think that could matter less and less as time goes on.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Do we know when the patch drops?
I'll probably be asleep when it comes as most patches came during midnight top late night in Europe.

Anyway, hoping for some good buffs but there probably won't be any too relevant for me but you never know.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Do we know when the patch drops?
I'll probably be asleep when it comes as most patches came during midnight top late night in Europe.

Anyway, hoping for some good buffs but there probably won't be any too relevant for me but you never know.

There's Nintendo server maintenance happening tonight, and based on when that's happening, these are the rough estimates of when the update will drop. English patch notes will probably drop within a few minutes to an hour of the update like they usually do and the Japanese ones will probably drop first like normal.

Seeing some people asking about when Steve & Alex are releasing in Smash so here are some time conversions for a few countries :)

They release on October 13th in the US & October 14th for most other places pic.twitter.com/p6MZqxnmPY

— Aero (@ActualAero) October 12, 2020

 

[Nate1080]

I always hated the timing of them dropping characters, it’s wonky as hell.

Even if they wanted to time it for Japan, 10am is lowkey random. Should be 12am Japan time, that would be more reasonable for the rest of the world imo too.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Steve and 9.0 will be releasing in less than an hour now.

I am personally going to avoid reading the Japanese patch notes, as I won't be able to understand what it will say, while it spoils who got adjusted.

Any final thoughts/predictions before he drops?

 

[SKX31]

Steve and 9.0 will be releasing in less than an hour now.

I am personally going to avoid reading the Japanese patch notes, as I won't be able to understand what it will say, while it spoils who got adjusted.

Any final thoughts/predictions before he drops?

* looked really good, although I'm not sure if she's Top 20. Still: she does seem to have fit pretty well into Ultimate, even if she has polarized matchups.

* Last patch did wonders to the Pits and Corrin which is nice to see. Jury's out on K.Rool, although now he's admittedly in a much better spot than before.

* It's difficult to say how well the meta's doing, we've gone two patches effectively without major tournaments. Still though, I'm hopeful that the meta is in a good spot and that Steve doesn't shatter it.

* Really hope characters like Lucario, Doc and so on get buffed - there are still quite a few characters that are clearly under the margin. While I don't expect any online improvements to be major, getting any improvements there would be nice too.

 

[Arthur97]

* looked really good, although I'm not sure if she's Top 20. Still: she does seem to have fit pretty well into Ultimate, even if she has polarized matchups.

* Last patch did wonders to the Pits and Corrin which is nice to see. Jury's out on K.Rool, although now he's admittedly in a much better spot than before.

* It's difficult to say how well the meta's doing, we've gone two patches effectively without major tournaments. Still though, I'm hopeful that the meta is in a good spot and that Steve doesn't shatter it.

* Really hope characters like Lucario, Doc and so on get buffed - there are still quite a few characters that are clearly under the margin. While I don't expect any online improvements to be major, getting any improvements there would be nice too.

I wouldn't expect the newcomers to shatter anything like in 4. It will take a while to bring out the potential in this moveset most likely, and even then, with how things have gone with DLC this time, I wouldn't expect anything too meta shattering. Remember, Pac-Man can be hard to master too, but it doesn't make him the best. At this point, maybe people should trust the balance team more than hot takes based on very limited exposure a bit more.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I'm not expecting Steve to break the meta. I'm expecting him to be on the low end of top tier/upper end of high tier, like where Pac Man and Megaman are. And he could indeed be worse than that, but I'd be surprised if he's so much better than that as to be broken

 

[Arthur97]

And, yeah, even if they are good, at least in the States, their playstyle may not garner them too many high level mains.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I checked Steve's weight. His weight value is 92, which is the same as .
Statistically, it makes him the 51st-54th heaviest character in the game, which is below-average in terms of weight.

Still waiting for the English patch notes, cause I have no idea who got changed as of right now.
If the notes comes out, can someone please post the link here as always? I am very intrigued.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sorry for the double post, but here it is.

Nintendo Support: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Update Ver. 9.0.0 - Fighter Adjustments

en-americas-support.nintendo.com

 

[BitBitio]

Lucario and Bowser Jr got buffed aaaaaand that’s it.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Lucario and Bowser Jr got buffed aaaaaand that’s it.

You missed Ice Climbers, the Belmonts, Sonic, and Ness.