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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    584

DougEfresh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
212
I think we're past the nerfing phase for this game.

The balance team seems pretty satisfied with the top dogs.
I tend to agree with you, at least as far as trends go when it comes to balance patches. All the buffs characters received in 8.0 is definitely indicative of a possible shift in focus to improving the lower tiered and less common characters that need buffs and/or QoL improvements (which would be good news for low and mid tier mains).

I also think there's nothing glaring about the top tiers and any of their tools at this point in Ultimate, but I could see the dev team making some small changes to tone down certain moves on a few top tiers, like Wario waft, palu up smash (just because of how dumb it is at the ledge), etc. that come in future patches as they near the end of releasing patches to potentially give the overall meta some QoL improvements and leave it in a good place once support for the game stops. Who knows though 🤷‍♂️
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
There's quite a bit to unpack here
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,198
There's quite a bit to unpack here
For me:
1: Hard agree on this. Probably the most overrated character in the game imo.
2: That is being way too optimistic for my taste. The character is pretty good imo, but he not top 20.
3: I am inclined to say no, since this is just theory talk. His results right now are more in-line with characters like Pac-Man and Olimar (which puts him in the 18-20th range in my personal tier list).
4: I do agree on this. The 6-8th range (if we count Peach and Daisy as the same character) is where I personally put R.O.B.
6: I do agree somewhat. In my personal tier list, he is barely outside of bottom 20, but it hard to deny that there are a lot more consistent characters in the game right now in terms of playstyle and results.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
1,919
Location
Battle Royal Dome
There's quite a bit to unpack here
1. Agree. I've poured over ESAM's results compared to people who play other top tiers. Pika just doesn't do quite as well. I made an ordered tier list so I could really ask myself where I'd put everyone. I put Pika at 11th.
2. Disagree. Luigi is very good, but there are too many characters I think are better.
3. Maybe. I consider Shulk to be one of the best characters in the game, but there are a handful I think are better than him. He's not that far off from top 3 in my view, though, so that could change.
4. Agree. I actually ranked ROB 9th.
6. It depends. I don't have Jr in the bottom 10, but he's close to it. He's not flat-out terrible, but really lacks a good neutral.

So, since we might get our next balance patch tomorrow and are probably a week away from it at most, here's what I'm hoping for:
  • We really don't need nerfs. I think :ultsnake:'s Nikita and :ultwario:'s Waft are the only things that need toning down anymore. Hope to see all the other top and high tiers left intact.
  • A lot of characters need buffs. I want buffs for: :ultganondorf:, :ultlittlemac:, :ultisabelle:, :ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter:, :ultdoc:, :ultdk:, :ultbanjokazooie:, :ultbylethf:, :ultduckhunt:, :ultlucario:, :ultmetaknight:, :ultsimon::ultrichter:, :ulticeclimbers:. That's a lot of characters but hey, it has been a long while since Min Min, so hopefully the reason for a lot of that wait is buffs!
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
I've seen so many lists all over Twitter today saying which characters should be buffed and nerfed, and honestly, I don't think many characters need changes at this point. There's very few characters I would like to see changed by now, as most of the cast are in a pretty decent place right now in terms of viability. There are a handful of characters who have poor designs that I would like to see changed, but I feel like the changes given to them won't solve anything and/or make things worse than they already are.

Heavy buffs: :ultganondorf::ultdk:

Slight buffs: :ultdoc::ultbyleth:

Nerf low profiling, leave everything else untouched: :ultpichu::ultinkling:

Slight nerfs, as well as a nerf to his low profiling: :ultpikachu:

Slight nerfs: :ultgnw::ultzss::ultsnake:

Remove Monado Arts switching while in hitstun as well as slight nerfs to other aspects of his kit, but fix his counter: :ultshulk:


Characters that are either bad in terms of viability or poorly designed that need changes, but I don't necessarily want them changed because I don't think the balance team will adjust them properly or to the extent that they need changes: :ultbanjokazooie::ulthero::ulticeclimbers::ultincineroar::ultjoker::ultluigi::ultlittlemac::ultlucario::ultgunner::ultsonic::ultsimon::ultminmin
 
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Aaron1997

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
708
Location
Arkansas
NNID
Aaron1318
So I looked at the patch History for a Bunch of Mid/low tiers, borderline high tiers or underrepresented high tiers . I looked for characters that have been unchanged, only had slight changes or haven't been changed in while. This is who I think is most likely to get changes based on this.

:ultbowserjr::ultbanjokazooie::ultbyleth::ultganondorf::ultduckhunt::ulthero::ulticeclimbers::ultlittlemac::ultlucario::ultlucas::ultswordfighter::ultbrawler::ultgunner:(I'm not to sure about this one because of their strength on wifi):ultrobin::ultrosalina::ultpichu:(This characters rep has dropped like a rock) :ultlink::ultgreninja::ultsimon::ultyoshi::ultluigi:(This one is weird because of his combo's):ultsonic:(Strength on wifi make this weird to)


I'm not saying all of these will get changed. I'm just trying to narrow down the most likely
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,198
So Steve is character #2 of Fighter's Pass 2.

This character looks.... very complicated to say the least. Like what Sakurai says: "The wizardry required to make it work in this game..."

Now we have some idea on how the moveset works, but we will have to wait 2 more days to get the full sauce on how the character works. This seems like a game-changing character from a design perspective.

Btw, according to the website, here is how the alternate costumes work:
Alt #1: Default Steve skin.
Alt #2: Default Alex skin.
Alt #3: A nurse outfit for Steve. This skin features slightly altered skin tone, blonde hair, and purple eyes.
Alt #4: A nurse outfit for Alex. This skin features a very dark skin tone, altered hair style that is brown, and brown eyes.
Alt #5: The outfit is hard to determine for me, but it is one for Steve. This skin features a lighter skin tone, brownish-orange hair, and sky blue eyes.
Alt #6: A pilgrim outfit for Alex. This skin features a very light skin tone, altered hair style that is blonde, and sky blue eyes.
Alt #7: The Zombie skin.
Alt #8: The Enderman skin. It is strange seeing Enderman at the same height as Steve, but eh, better than nothing.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
Not sure what Kirby's copy ability from this character is yet, but there are images of him when he inhales Steve
1601564142954.png



Edit: Supposedly this might be from a Smash Wii U mod, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Someone showed me this and I assumed it was from this reveal.
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
I'm overall a fan of this reveal. So I'll go over some of the moves we've seen so far in his trailer:

  • Crouch: Seems to be the crouching animation from Minecraft. He can probably crawl while doing this, but it barely decreases his height compared to most crouches.
  • F-smash: Seems like a sword swing.
  • Down-smash: Throws lava on both sides of himself.
  • F-air: swings a pickaxe in front of him, seems to cover a similar area to Marcina's f-air, but with a different animation.
  • ??? Can set a fire in front of him with flint and steel
  • Grab: Fishing rod as a tether grab.
  • Up-throw: Uses a piston to launch the opponent upwards.
  • ??? Can build with blocks. He's been shown to be able to build both vertically and horizontally, and the blocks seem to deteriorate with time.
  • ??? Can break blocks onstage with his pickaxe and collect resources.
  • ??? Crafting table. In the trailer he uses it to craft a sword, so he may be able to get stronger moves by collecting more resources from the stage.
  • Up-air: A short ranged swing upwards with an axe.
  • Down-air or Down-b: Uses an anvil. This is a stall and fall move and is most likely either his down-special or down-b.
  • ??? Punches with his fist on the ground but can also do it when jumping.
  • Jab: Appears to be a basic single hit sword swing, but Steve (Alex) can move while doing it.
  • ??? Can use a minecart as a way to travel quicker (which is good since their run speed doesn't look all too great based on what we've seen in the trailer). The minecart can pick up other players which could be good for setting up potential edgeguards.
  • ??? Is able to set down TNT and detonate it at a distance manually. Seems strong due to the amount of hitstun inflicted on Banjo.
  • ??? Is able to use Elytra and fireworks to glide. Has surprisingly low endlag when landing with the move.
  • Sleeping animation: Steve lays horizontally on the ground (or in this case, a bed)
  • Heavy Item carry: Literally have nothing to say other than Steve (Enderman) seems to walk rather quickly when carrying a heavy item.
  • Final Smash: Characters are blown up inside of a castle.
It seems like Steve will have some kind of focus on resource management, so while some of these moves (Minecart, TNT, block building) seem like they could be really strong camping, zoning, and trapping moves, he may not have access to them at all times. I'm interested to see if any top players give this character a shot, the resource management aspect of this character is something I could see appealing to Dabuz, while the trapping aspect I could see appealing to a player like Raito. Or maybe someone will pick him up as a meme, who really knows.

There are some other things I'm curious to see about this character that haven't been confirmed yet:
  • How do his blocks work?
  • Can other players break them?
  • Does he have a limit to how much he can build?
  • Can they be wall jumped off of?
  • What is the interaction when players are knocked into them?
  • How far does this resource management type gameplay go? Are nearly all of his moves based off of this or only some of them?
  • What are this characters attributes? Because this is a character I can see being potentially overtuned if he's fast on top of having this good of a kit, although based on what we've seen, I don't think he looks too fast.
 
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Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
But this didn't sound like we'll get Steve on October 3rd.
Could be a late October release but maybe there's a slim chance we get a shadowdrop in two days.

Anyway, this moveset looks interesting. Definitely not a disappointing addition at first sight.
I wonder how these blocks interact with the ledge, especially with grabbing and potentially 2 framing. Maybe there need to be solid ground for blocks to be placed. Really interesting stuff but I think it'll be quite simple at its core.
 
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StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
1,919
Location
Battle Royal Dome
They appear to break overtime, and we don't quite know how easy it is break them.

This could look annoying in doubles (especially in Wi-Fi doubles where Team Attack is off lol), but it is too early to jump the gun here.
He also built the blocks really fast. Just boom stacked four. I hope there will be a good limitation to block building, like maybe needing time to craft the blocks in the first place. I am aware that we don't know the full details yet. I wasn't saying that it is broken, just that it looked that way. I hope there ends up being weaknesses to block building because it looked really fast in the trailer
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,339
But this didn't sound like we'll get Steve on October 3rd.
Could be a late October release but maybe there's a slim chance we get a shadowdrop in two days.
The character is most likely due next week. Nintendo's October schedule is stuffed like a turkey between things like Mario Kart Live, Pokémon DLC, Pikmin 3, etc. and next week is the only open week where they don't have anything scheduled (previous characters like Min Min and Terry were scheduled to avoid any overlap with other major DLC/game releases). The only reason we didn't get a Presentation today was because Sakurai wanted to coincide it with Minecon.
 
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Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
The character is most likely due next week. Nintendo's October schedule is stuffed like a turkey between things like Mario Kart Live, Pokémon DLC, Pikmin 3, etc. and next week is the only open week where they don't have anything scheduled (previous characters like Min Min and Terry were scheduled to avoid any overlap with other major DLC/game releases). The only reason we didn't get a Presentation today was because Sakurai wanted to coincide it with Minecon.
From your lips to God's ears.
Let's hope it'll be like this.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
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Location
Battle Royal Dome
I'm thinking next week too. Especially because the full Presents is this Saturday. There's already some evidence that the character has been ready, or very close to, for a while. It usually doesn't take long for the character to come out once Sakurai gives us the rundown.
 

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
Today was a good day to be a Smash player.
I know it's super offtopic but damn were some people pissed about this reveal, idk why tbh Steve is kinda hype, albeit I'm slightly worried if he ends up being rather campy.

On a more topical note, I do think that Luigi is really good and although I'm not sure about Top 20 yet I do believe that he will eventually climb there.
Elegant and Venus are putting in the work.
One last thing,
I don't know Japanese but this certainly looks interesting and further proves my belief that Peach and Daisy are most certainly Top 5 at worst.
 

Cutie Gwen

Lovely warrior
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
63,082
Location
Somewhere out there on this big blue marble
If one looks closely when Steve mines iron you can see him get a block, this suggests blocks are resources that need to be earned alongside ores that upgrade his gear. It's likely random what blocks you get and if they have different qualities, but this means you want to pressure Steve so he can't farm materials to work with for either stage control or straight up improve the gear
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
1,919
Location
Battle Royal Dome
If one looks closely when Steve mines iron you can see him get a block, this suggests blocks are resources that need to be earned alongside ores that upgrade his gear. It's likely random what blocks you get and if they have different qualities, but this means you want to pressure Steve so he can't farm materials to work with for either stage control or straight up improve the gear
Sounds like he'll play exactly how I was hoping he would play! He'll be an interesting character with a lot of depth
 

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
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Feb 10, 2006
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7,265
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Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
Did I see that right that these blocks mess up recoveries really bad?
It does but it consumes Steve's resources stupidly fast and he can only go so far out. While being open to being swatted away while planting a block. And he kinda has to telegraph he's going for that.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
Did I see that right that these blocks mess up recoveries really bad?
Yep. He explicitly called this out as a potential use case.

Honestly, even though Steve as a whole isn't entirely my cup of tea, I think he'll be hilarious as a character. Block placement alone has so much potential to screw with enemies (recovery aid, gravity stall, edgeguarding) but he also has meme-tier weak points like that awful first jump and having his weapons tied to resource management.
 

SKX31

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
3,463
Location
Sweden
Yep. He explicitly called this out as a potential use case.

Honestly, even though Steve as a whole isn't entirely my cup of tea, I think he'll be hilarious as a character. Block placement alone has so much potential to screw with enemies (recovery aid, gravity stall, edgeguarding) but he also has meme-tier weak points like that awful first jump and having his weapons tied to resource management.
Yeah, that's about what I'm thinking too. He'll be mostly limited to the up tilt / magma block / placing blocks himself as anti-airs, and if he has to get on a platform he'll have to commit a double jump.

I do imagine that he'll be an amazing counter-zoner / farmer (as I talked about in the Newcomer thread Thursday). Edit: I'll post my full thoughts here too soon.
 
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Wunderwaft

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
3,459
Steve is gonna be a very polarizing character. He's gonna be more stage dependent than the rest of the cast.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
like hero he is gonna rushed to death but also like hero if he sets up it will be a bad time. but unlike hero there is a further complication and that is materials. on certain stages this character wont even have a side b or stronger normals. Without side b he will have zero ranged threats and no movement speed to close the gap. this is the first character that can be counter picked on more than one stage element. that alone hurts his competitive standing. Once we know where his best materials are, those stages simply get banned. in stage picks the limited ultimate stage pool may kill this character at launch.

people are not gonna appreciate one button low risk edge guards that steve builds creating ceilings and walls on characters recoveries. and the runaway and stall potential on this character is through the roof.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Someone pointed out that he was shown mining on SV and it counted as a wooden surface primarily giving him wood blocks. He needs iron to use a lot of his moves like side b iirc from the presentation if he isn’t able to get a lot of iron or other types of blocks due to the stage he is on that will absolutely hammer his viability on certain stages.

I wonder if this was accounted for when hazards are turned off giving him access to other materials. Actually I’m sure this was accounted for as they made that change to give him all types of materials on BF and Omega variants of stages but if it wasn’t? Steve’s stage choices become quite limited in our current stage list, but this is again dependent on what each legal stage is treated as. If SV is wood it’s safe to assume T&C is wood also. Lylat is definitely iron and maybe Kalos as well?
 

Kiligar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Messages
269
Overrated characters::ultroy::ultchrom:
Especially Roy. I used to believe Roy may even be top tier or a top 20 character but now after using him for several months I feel differently. Hearing of the plethora of losing MUs Roy has on the Chroy discord as well as directly experiencing it. I refused to believe it at frat because I wanted to believe Roy was as good as he was hyped to be and made excuses like it was just my skill level but watching top Roys struggling with the matchups, that is if they even played the matchup. Most Roy mains, even the most dedicated such as Goblin picked up secondaries due to how awful Roy’s matchup chart can be. Having near impossible matchups isn’t the marker of a top tier as far as I’m concerned.

Roy struggles in certain matchups because of the way he’s designed. Roy’s entire kit is basically designed to anti air, forward air comes out too slowly so it gets stuffed out quite a bit unless you read a jump. It’s frame 10 in comparison to Marcina’s frame 6. Roy’s nair which is the move people gravitate towards isn’t as good when the opponent knows how to shield and parry. In fact they can shield the first hit and parry the second. Even if they don’t the move is not very safe at all. Furthermore nair doesn’t even hit many grounded characters. Try this, put Ness as your opponent in the training room and try connecting a nair as he’s standing still. There are many characters who are shorter than this making it not even possible to hit ever when they’re grounded. Roy’s infamous jab also benefits more from hitting aerial opponents it’s easier to land that way and they cannot shield it. If you compare the hit boxes of Roy and Chrom jab you’ll see Roy’s are literally placed s bit higher. Up special is also an anti air. It has awful horizontal range in front and isn’t the multi hit you may think it is there’s a gap between the first hit and the rest meaning opponents can consistently spot dodge it. What it does have is good vertical height.

All of this leads back to one point which makes it so that Roy really suffers against short characters. Not simply short characters which there are a lot of but also characters that have short hit boxes when running such as Joker, Inkling and Sheik. Chrom at least has a whole sword meaning the dead zones aren’t as big, but as for Roy it can actually become a problem to KO these tiny light characters because he can’t hit sweet spots. Guess who Roy’s worst matchup is? It’s Pichu, a not very relevant character in the meta right now but has every attribute Roy hates. Roy has a bad matchup chart losing to :ultalph::ultinkling::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultsquirtle::ultgreninja::ultjoker::ultsnake: to varying degrees, however what is the trade off? Which relevant matchups does Roy crush in to makeup for this? The spoiler is none, given that Roy’s weaknesses are so easy to exploit, I haven’t even spoken of his recovery yet. At best you could say:ultzss: however here’s the clincher: Roy isn’t ZSS’s worst matchup, in fact there’s a character with a better matchup chart than Roy against every character whether even winning or losing. This character is:ultwolf:. Wolf does better than Roy and maybe Chrom as well in every relevant matchup, and in fact is easier to use on top of that since his air acceleration means he’s not as commital with his jumps. Furthermore he doesn’t have to spend hours perfecting a kill confirm which requires DI reaction. Wolf has a reflector to deal with projectile characters, and it’s a good reflector on top of that with other uses such as to extend combos. He has a great projectile with transcendent properties to control the neutral as well. Great frame data and hit boxes which hit low enough to catch the smallest of characters.Amazing smash attacks whereas Chroy only have f smash the rest are not very good smash attacks. Long story short Wolf outclasses Roy. Chrom also has a masochistically bad recovery as well which requires pinpoint precision to recover against a variety of gimping tools such as water and counters. Chroy are overrated, use Wolf instead if you want better consistency.
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,336
Not gonna lie, Steve looks like he'd be super fun to play as but absolute cancer to play against. His entire strategy is run away, farm, then troll. The fact that he has like 5 or 6 insane edge guarding tools only makes it even worse. If a good Steve ever gets you offstage, GG. Let's just hope that teleporting recoveries like Zelda's or Mewtwo's can bypass the blocks and such.
 

Wunderwaft

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
3,459
Let's just hope that teleporting recoveries like Zelda's or Mewtwo's can bypass the blocks and such.
This is what I'm most curious about. Blocks can intercept recoveries like Pika's but what about teleport recoveries? What about tether recoveries as well? Depending on how the team handles how blocks work with recoveries Steve might demolish some of the current top tiers with his edgeguarding. Which is kinda wild to say since Steve's edgeguarding is already stupid good what with him being the only Smash fighter who can do smash attacks off stage.
 
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TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
This is what I'm most curious about. Blocks can intercept recoveries like Pika's but what about teleport recoveries? What about tether recoveries as well? Depending on how the team handles how blocks work with recoveries Steve might demolish some of the current top tiers with his edgeguarding. Which is kinda wild to say since Steve's edgeguarding is already stupid good what with him being the only Smash fighter who can do smash attacks off stage.
It also seems like since he can land on blocks to do smash attacks midair, he could also get his double jump back.
This character's gonna be fun.
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
RIP :ultdk::ultdoc::ultganondorf::ulticeclimbers::ultincineroar::ultlittlemac::ultsimon::ultrichter: against a confident Steve. (Emotes eventually)


He's hoping they get some love this patch...
I'm hoping that Doc's strong moves maybe destroying blocks quickly + pill camping is good enough to carry him through that matchup, because if it isn't and he doesn't get his recovery buffed this patch, Steve could end up being a very bad and tedious matchup for Doc.
 
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