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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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    584

SwagGuy99

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Doc is in a similar boat after a fashion, I'd say to a lesser extent perhaps, though he contends with the residual problem that there's a character on the roster who covers his general archetype without overcommitting to a certain niche, making him an unappealing character when taken outside of a vacuum.
:ultdoc: suffers from this a lot IMO, in a very similar fashion to :ultmarth: but it's even more extreme for Doc since he's strengths and weaknesses are much more extreme compared to :ultmario: than Marth's are to :ultlucina:. In the US, the common consensus seems to be that Doc is extremely inferior to Mario in virtually every way and when you look at people's opinions of how well their characters do against Doc, most people aren't willing to consider that Doc may do similar to Mario against certain characters in the roster. And while Mario does better against most of them, there are characters where Doc and Mario may be similarly favored against (or Doc is more favored against than Mario).

Looking at Dark Wizzy's opinions (which I was able to come up with using his older matchup chart and a tweet where he gives his opinions on some of Mario's matchups) and comparing it to Tsumusuto's matchup chart, there are a decent number of characters where Doc does do comparable to or a bit better against certain characters than Mario (just a disclaimer: I don't agree with some of the opinions of both of these players).

  • Doc does better against these characters than Mario
    :ultlucario::ultwiifittrainer::ultrobin::ultfalco::ultpalutena::ultlucina::ultshulk::ultmarth:
  • Mario and Doc perform similarly against these characters
    :ultbayonetta::ultpichu::ultyounglink::ultvillager::ultzelda::ultsnake::ultlucas::ultpeach::ultjoker::ultduckhunt::ultmario::ultness::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultryu::ultken::ultyoshi::ultzss::ulticeclimbers::ultcorrin::ultgreninja:
  • Mario is better against these characters than Doc
    :ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultfalcon::ultdiddy::ultdk::ultduckhunt::ultfox::ultganondorf::ulthero::ultincineroar::ultinkling::ultkingdedede::ultlink::ultlittlemac::ultlucas::ultluigi::ultmegaman::ultmetaknight::ultgunner::ultpacman::ultpiranha::ultpokemontrainer::ultridley::ultrob::ultrosalina::ultroy::ultchrom::ultsamus::ultsheik::ulttoonlink::ultwolf::ultwario::ult_terry::ultsonic::ultcloud::ultike::ultsimon::ultgnw::ultkirby::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultkrool:
 
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MrGameguycolor

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:ultdoc: suffers from this a lot IMO, in a very similar fashion to :ultmarth: but it's even more extreme for Doc since he's strengths and weaknesses are much more extreme compared to :ultmario: than Marth's are to :ultlucina:.
Most of :ultdoc:'s MU's come down to how lame the stage and his opponent will be.
It's tricky to nail that down since not every competitor will play super defensive, along with how rare it is to find a good :ultdoc: at all.

But as odd as it is, his tiny player-base is genuinely useful in this game's meta due to the general lack of MU's against him.
This is why despite being bottom of the barrel, he's still not completely unviable at high-level play, and the addition of Small Battlefield is in his favor.

But that could change if the character becomes more common, thus prepared for...

(just a disclaimer: I don't agree with some of the opinions of both of these players).
  • Doc does better against these characters than Mario
    :ultlucario::ultwiifittrainer::ultrobin::ultfalco::ultpalutena::ultlucina::ultshulk::ultmarth:
  • Mario and Doc perform similarly against these characters
    :ultbayonetta::ultpichu::ultyounglink::ultvillager::ultzelda::ultsnake::ultlucas::ultpeach::ultjoker::ultduckhunt::ultmario::ultness::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultryu::ultken::ultyoshi::ultzss::ulticeclimbers::ultcorrin::ultgreninja:
  • Mario is better against these characters than Doc
    :ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultfalcon::ultdiddy::ultdk::ultduckhunt::ultfox::ultganondorf::ulthero::ultincineroar::ultinkling::ultkingdedede::ultlink::ultlittlemac::ultlucas::ultluigi::ultmegaman::ultmetaknight::ultgunner::ultpacman::ultpiranha::ultpokemontrainer::ultridley::ultrob::ultrosalina::ultroy::ultchrom::ultsamus::ultsheik::ulttoonlink::ultwolf::ultwario::ult_terry::ultsonic::ultcloud::ultike::ultsimon::ultgnw::ultkirby::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultkrool:
Yeah...
This list is inaccurate.
:ultcorrin::ultpalutena::ultlucina::ultmarth::ultjoker::ultshulk::ultzss::ultpeach::ultlucas::ultyounglink: placements are all red flags...

IMO, this character has very few winning MU's in a vacuum, and none of them he's favored over :ultmario:.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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BTW guys, the EPI (Eastern Powerhouse Invitational) has the Group A Qualifier start at 12AM EST (9PM PST) and will be broadcasted on VGBootCamp's channel. First big offline Smash Tourney in a while.

Most notably Zackray vs Etsuji is the first match, and Etsuji picked up :ultpikachu:as his new main after Frostbite. So it'll be interesting to see how he does because up until recently there wasn't very many top Pikachu players aside from ESAM. (Keep in mind, there is no Losers Bracket for this Invitational so if he loses to Zackray he's out of the tournament and isn't qualifying for the final bracket)
 
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The_Bookworm

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BTW guys, the EPI (Eastern Powerhouse Invitational) has the Group A Qualifier start at 12AM EST (9PM PST) and will be broadcasted on VGBootCamp's channel. First big offline Smash Tourney in a while.

Most notably Zackray vs Etsuji is the first match, and Etsuji picked up :ultpikachu:as his new main recently. So it'll be interesting to see how he does because up until recently there wasn't very many top Pikachu players aside from ESAM.
Etsuji has been using :ultpichu: for the longest time, at one point switching to :ultwario: with great success, so :ultpikachu: is not exactly unfamilar territory for Etsuji.
We will wait and see how it pans out.

Edit: Forget I said anything, I confused Etsuji:ultlucina: with Nietono:ultpichu:.
 
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Rizen

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:ultdoc:
  • Mario and Doc perform similarly against these characters
    :ultyounglink:
I disagree with this. I've played tournament sets vs both :ultdoc: and :ultmario: and Mario's a full step harder than Doc. Both Marios outbutton YL heavily and win and close range but Mario's significantly better mobility all around means he controls stages much better and has an easier time chasing YL down. YL wants to do what he always does: run away and spam projectiles to create openings. It's easier to do that against Doc and Doc's terrible recovery makes up the difference in his superior KO power- plus Mario can ladder you off the top and kill you. IMO Doc goes even with YL, sheet's a pain and he's still one of the better characters at sliding past projectiles, and Mario beats YL +1. It should be noted that YL's F4 Nair and Dair are very good at covering his landings and significantly lessen Mario's advantage state.
I've also played the MU with :ultlink: who IMO beats Doc +1 but loses to Mario -1. Mario's so much better at getting past his sword zoning.
 
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KirbySquad101

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Doc isn't great, but I'm not too sure about writing him off completely:

To clarify, Tsumusuto just got 2nd at Sumabato SP13 - an offline event - using Doc the entire run aside from his rematch against Masashi :ultcloud: in Loser's Quarters (he used:ultgunner: instead). Most notably, he 2-1'd tk3:ultchrom:, 2-1'd Sylph:ultsheik:, and even 2-stocked Kome:ultshulk: once in their GF set.


A link to the tournament for those who are interested in seeing the vods:


Timesteps:
3:17:15 (Tsumusuto :ultdoc: vs Floyd :ultyoshi:)
4:10:20 (Tsumusuto :ultdoc: vs Masashi :ultcloud:)
5:35:34 (Tsumusuto :ultgunner: vs Masashi :ultcloud:)
5:52:10 (Tsumusuto :ultdoc: vs tk3 :ultchrom:)
6:03:58 (Tsumusuto :ultdoc: vs Kome :ultshulk:)
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Therw has been a tragic irony about Doc being the "slower yet stronger " version of Mario that has been over him since Smash 4

Doc does more damaged of a single hit yes. But when it come actullay winning neutral Mario will in most times will actulally outdamage Doc with due to his big combo strings where Doc is lucky to get a 2-hit combo. So wheb the opponent is at low-mid% Mario is going to be going more damage.

In ultaimte it has gotten less one sided that way, now that Doc has some legit confirms from the 5.0.0 or 6.0.0 patch. . But even then they are more impractical and harder to land just di to how poor Doc's mobility is

Plus Mario can still kill as early as doc with his death ladder combos and set ups into fair spike, which Doc does not have.

That is one more funny note. Doc's fair is supposed to be the superior one due to having the entire hitbox of the move spiking where Mario has a sourspot . But Mario has far better mobility and potential setups into his. Even when many of doc's moves are designed to be better than Mario's versions they end up being not as good.
 
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The_Bookworm

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How it works is this:

In Melee, :drmario: is widely considered to be better than :mariomelee:, thanks to his overall stronger KO power and better projectile. Stronger KO power and projectile doesn't sound too different from today.
However, the thing is that thanks to how their combo game works, as well as the overall engine of the game, it DOES NOT come at the cost of his combo game that much. Additionally, thanks to wavedashing, as well as the stats being not too much different, the mobility difference is usually not that noticeable.
As a result, he actually has a very good approach in that game. He does possess a weaker recovery, but Mario's was very exploitable in that game as well, as well as being in a game where the vast majority of recoveries are not that great.

In SSB4, :4mario: heavily trumps over :4drmario:, with this distinction being even stronger in retrospect. Doc's grounded mobility got significantly weaker in the transition, both directly and indirectly. They removed wavedashing, L-Canceling, and nerfed his Pills. All of this, combined with the universally increased range of the cast since Melee (which also includes Mario in some cases), which pretty much neutered his approach.
Thanks to the engine changes, his combo game is no longer comparable to Mario's. Everything else about how their combo game differs is already covered in Ziodyne's post above.
Now his recovery did technically get better from Melee. However, recoveries got miles better since then, including Mario's, which makes Doc's recovery funnily enough even weaker relative to the cast than in Melee.
Doc was a very poor character in this game, only finding very few niche moments of success. The argument back then was that since Doc has a similar moveset to Mario and solid frame data, he should be better than bottom 10, right? In retrospect, after seeing how lacking Doc is in Ultimate, it does sour SSB4 Doc even more.

In Ultimate, :ultmario: once again heavily trumps over :ultdoc:. It wasn't always like this. During the first month of the game, everyone thought Mario was mid tier and Doc was a potential high tier. However, now, similar to SSB4, they are on opposite ends of the tier list.
Now as Ziodyne says above: Doc has an actual advantage state now. Moving his slow, small body to the opponent now gives out proper reward, with some damaging combos and even KO combos after reading the opponent's DI. Pills are now better, restoring some of their lost utility from Melee. Additionally, he benefits quite a bit from the universal landing lag reductions of the cast.
So why is Doc still so much worse than Mario?
It is not just because a lot of his crippling weaknesses still remain. It is because some of them got even worse. I covered this more in detail in the past, but his overall mobility is even slower now relative to the cast, thanks to changes made to his mobility multipliers. Being both slow and stubby hurts really bad in SSB4, but now he is even slower in this game in addition of being stubby.
As seen with how DK, Mewtwo, and Lucario fell off in this game in comparison to SSB4, characters will push the opponent's disadvantage as hard as possible in this game. This does hurt, as Doc still has one of the worst recoveries in the game, with the changes to airdodges not helping much.

He is clearly better in Ultimate, now that he gets rewarded for getting in, which is reflected in both his reps and results being higher than in SSB4 (although that is an extremely low bar to clear), but the fight to get in continues to be hard, if not even harder.
He has a few other issues (unsafe on-hit moves and wacky knockback angles), but that is the main gist of things.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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Speaking of DK, what kind of realizable improvements could you guys see to his kit?

I've been paying to attention to how some characters have been buffed in the past, and I'm actually a big fan of making seemingly small changes that make a big difference on how someone plays instead of completely overhauling them. I had a thought of buffing his Nair so that it can work as a sort of combo breaker while in disadvantage. The move comes out at frame 10 so perhaps they could shave some frames off of it. Perhaps they can also increase it's hitbox a little.

In regards to his linear recovery, how about giving him some armor frames?

I'm just throwing out some ideas but I will like to hear what some of you think.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Speaking of DK, what kind of realizable improvements could you guys see to his kit?

I've been paying to attention to how some characters have been buffed in the past, and I'm actually a big fan of making seemingly small changes that make a big difference on how someone plays instead of completely overhauling them. I had a thought of buffing his Nair so that it can work as a sort of combo breaker while in disadvantage. The move comes out at frame 10 so perhaps they could shave some frames off of it. Perhaps they can also increase it's hitbox a little.

In regards to his linear recovery, how about giving him some armor frames?

I'm just throwing out some ideas but I will like to hear what some of you think.
DK doesn't really need too much.
Reducing neutral air's startup is actually something that I did not think of before, mostly because it was frame 10 in Brawl and SSB4 as well, but it could help out in the combo breaking potential.

However, outside of that, there are two main things DK needs:
  1. Better safety on some of his moves in low percents. Currently, jab 2, neutral air, up air, and up tilt are the biggest culprits.
  2. The other, more important thing is to his recovery. Having it's overall distance increase will help, but it won't stop the fact that it is still fairly easy to snipe him out of the move. The main solution to that is to simply give the move the startup intangibility it has in SSB4. It won't fix the issue, as DK's recovery has always been mediocre throughout the entirety of the Smash series, but it will definitely help.
So most of DK's main issue is centered around aerial Spinning Kong, so hopefully that gets a touch up in the next update.
 

StrangeKitten

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Speaking of DK, what kind of realizable improvements could you guys see to his kit?

I've been paying to attention to how some characters have been buffed in the past, and I'm actually a big fan of making seemingly small changes that make a big difference on how someone plays instead of completely overhauling them. I had a thought of buffing his Nair so that it can work as a sort of combo breaker while in disadvantage. The move comes out at frame 10 so perhaps they could shave some frames off of it. Perhaps they can also increase it's hitbox a little.

In regards to his linear recovery, how about giving him some armor frames?

I'm just throwing out some ideas but I will like to hear what some of you think.
A better nair would be great for him! It would bring him more in-line with :ultincineroar: and :ultkrool:, who, while their disadvantage is still bad, their nairs help break up untrue combos and juggles. Additionally, DK is lacking for oos options. A better nair would help a lot there. Looking at its hitbox, it's somewhat poor, so it definitely needs to be bigger. Another good buff would be making up smash a little bigger and giving it faster startup. That would make it better as an oos and as a follow-up to a bury.

His recovery already has armor, which makes it tricky to edgeguard sometimes. I think it needs a buff in vertical travel distance. DK has a lot of spikes, so he could have a really strong edgeguard game were it not for his recovery giving him such little verticality. I think a good buff to it would do a lot for him
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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A better nair would be great for him! It would bring him more in-line with :ultincineroar: and :ultkrool:, who, while their disadvantage is still bad, their nairs help break up untrue combos and juggles. Additionally, DK is lacking for oos options. A better nair would help a lot there. Looking at its hitbox, it's somewhat poor, so it definitely needs to be bigger. Another good buff would be making up smash a little bigger and giving it faster startup. That would make it better as an oos and as a follow-up to a bury.

His recovery already has armor, which makes it tricky to edgeguard sometimes. I think it needs a buff in vertical travel distance. DK has a lot of spikes, so he could have a really strong edgeguard game were it not for his recovery giving him such little verticality. I think a good buff to it would do a lot for him
Giving him some scooping hitboxes at the beginning of his Usmash would definitely be a quality of life buff. About his Up B, isn't the SA exclusive to the grounded version? I don't recall tanking hits in the air.

I also think that every DK main should learn to B-Reverse and Wavebounce his Down B. It's such a decent neutral tool with potentially great reward if it lands.
 

StrangeKitten

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Giving him some scooping hitboxes at the beginning of his Usmash would definitely be a quality of life buff. About his Up B, isn't the SA exclusive to the grounded version? I don't recall tanking hits in the air.

I also think that every DK main should learn to B-Reverse and Wavebounce his Down B. It's such a decent neutral tool with potentially great reward if it lands.
Coulda sworn it had armor in the air too, but I could be wrong on that
 

MrGameguycolor

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Dr. Mario's competitive history in a nutshell.
A promising start with Melee but got it really rough past couple entries...

Maybe one day he'll get the proper buffs, but will likely remain a niche counterpick at best...


Speaking of DK, what kind of realizable improvements could you guys see to his kit?
-Slightly better grabs.

-Air Up-B grains back it's frame 3-6 intangibility.

-Less landing lag on Air Up-B.

-Safe on-hit moves for good measure.

That's what I got...

Giving him some scooping hitboxes at the beginning of his Usmash would definitely be a quality of life buff.
I'm shocked that's still not in the game.

Coulda sworn it had armor in the air too, but I could be wrong on that

It doesn't, check it here:
https://ultimateframedata.com/donkey_kong.php
 
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SwagGuy99

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It is not just because a lot of his crippling weaknesses still remain. It is because some of them got even worse. I covered this more in detail in the past, but his overall mobility is even slower now relative to the cast, thanks to changes made to his mobility multipliers. Being both slow and stubby hurts really bad in SSB4, but now he is even slower in this game in addition of being stubby.
As seen with how DK, Mewtwo, and Lucario fell off in this game in comparison to SSB4, characters will push the opponent's disadvantage as hard as possible in this game. This does hurt, as Doc still has one of the worst recoveries in the game, with the changes to airdodges not helping much.
And this is why I think Doc needs an air speed (and air acceleration) buff over anything else especially since his recovery being weak has been a staple of his design since Melee, and it's something the balance team seems to have left alone in every future installment since Melee because they want it to be that way. While buffing individual moves of his in 7.0 was helpful (I do think, at least in my opinion, that these buffs did get him out of the bottom 10 area on the tier list but only barely) and was a good improvement to his advantage state, his disadvantage state, poor recovery, and lack of answers to disjoints still hurts him a lot against a decent number of the meta relevant characters, with :ultmarth: :ultlucina: :ultcloud: :ultshulk: being the most extreme examples of this in my opinion.

Giving Doc some kind of an air speed (and air acceleration) buff is a very good improvement in my opinion, because it addresses a lot of issues that the character has.
  • It indirectly improves Doc's horizontal recovery and how far he can go offstage for edgeguards.
  • It allows Doc to mix up his movement more in disadvantage.
  • It allows Doc to more easily get conversions off of pills when he isn't as close to his opponent.
  • It allows Doc to use his up-air a bit more freely as a combo tool.
  • It lets him more safely pressure opponents with his back air.
I feel like buffing his air speed to maybe around the same level as Falco (an increase from 0.9238784 > 0.977) while completely removing the negative multiplier applied to his air acceleration (which would make his air accel be the same as Mario's) would probably be a good change. Doc's air speed still wouldn't be great, but it would be a good improvement and being able to reach his max air speed much faster would make this change more noticeable.
 
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MrGameguycolor

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And this is why I think Doc needs an air speed (and air acceleration) buff over anything else especially since his recovery being weak has been a staple of his design since Melee, and it's something the balance team seems to have left alone in every future installment since Melee because they want it to be that way.
Air speed or any kind of mobility buff is what :ultdoc: needs.
We all know that. But they won't do it.

The balance team doesn't do mobility buffs, people keep falling for his cheese online, and the character competitively does fine enough in their home region despite his glaring flaws...

It's not going to happen...
 
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SwagGuy99

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Air speed or any kind of mobility buff is what :ultdoc: needs.
We all know that. But they're not gonna give it to him...

The balance team doesn't do mobility buffs, the character competitively does fine enough in their home region despite his glaring flaws, people keep falling for his cheese online...

It's not going to happen...
It's unlikely, but in 8.0, it seemed like the balance team was focusing on improving characters who's previous buffs weren't significant enough to increase their viability (:ultfalcon::ultcorrin::ultbayonetta::ultincineroar:) while also buffing characters who hadn't seen meaningful buffs up until that point (:ultmetaknight::ultkingdedede:) so I wouldn't give up total hope on Doc getting more buffs.

It's just a question of whether or not any buffs he does receive will be meaningful.
 
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MrGameguycolor

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It's unlikely, but in 8.0, it seemed like the balance team was focusing on improving characters who's previous buffs weren't significant enough to increase their viability (:ultfalcon::ultcorrin::ultbayonetta::ultincineroar:) while also buffing characters who hadn't seen meaningful buffs up until that point (:ultmetaknight::ultkingdedede:) so I wouldn't give up total hope on Doc getting more buffs.

It's just a question of whether or not any buffs he does receive will be meaningful.
Oh :ultdoc: is in the running for buffs.
He'll likely get more...

But they won't be what he needs or will be good enough to push him pass low mid-tier.
Prove me wrong balance team!
 
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StrangeKitten

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:ultincineroar: and :ultdoc: could both be strong threats with mobility buffs. They can, and probably will, buff the two in other ways, but speed increases, even if slight, would do a lot more for them imo
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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Air speed or any kind of mobility buff is what :ultdoc: needs.
We all know that. But they won't do it.

The balance team doesn't do mobility buffs, people keep falling for his cheese online, and the character competitively does fine enough in their home region despite his glaring flaws...

It's not going to happen...
It's not very common, but during the late period of Smash 4 they increased the mobility and weight stats for Mewtwo, Charizard, Bowser, Samus, etc. So I wouldn't say that mobility buffs are entirely out of the question. It's probably just something that the devs aren't willing to hand out willy nilly which might explain why they do it in the latter stages of the game.
 
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MrGameguycolor

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It's not very common, but during the late period of Smash 4 they increased the mobility and weight stats for Mewtwo, Charizard, Bowser, Samus, etc. So I wouldn't say that mobility buffs are entirely out of the question. It's probably just something that the devs aren't willing to hand out willy nilly which might explain why they do it in the latter stages of the game.
That was Sm4sh...
:4mewtwo: was DLC, so being not bottom 10 helped justify his purchase. (Can't speak for the others)

This is Ultimate.
We've passed the time in the game's lifespan where those mobility buffs happened before.

:ultmewtwo: ironically was the only one to receive any intentional stat buffs and it was a minor weight increase.

Again, I would love to be wrong, but I wouldn't count on it...
 

Ziodyne 21

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Well it's not like Mobility buffs never happen in Smash. Look at the mobility buffs :ultdoc:
That was Sm4sh...
:4mewtwo: was DLC, so being not bottom 10 helped justify his purchase. (Can't speak for the others)

This is Ultimate.
We've passed the time in the game's lifespan where those mobility buffs happened before.

:ultmewtwo: ironically was the only one to receive any intentional stat buffs and it was a minor weight increase.

Again, I would love to be wrong, but I wouldn't count on it...

Mobility buffs are rare in Smash period yes, but the rare instances characters that desperately needed them a fully for it. Saying it was game-changing would be an understatement

I mean look at the huge mobility :ultpalutena: got in Ultimate. That was one of the largest factors that got her languishing at the bottom during the entire lifespan of SSB4 tier to sykrocketing the top tier level in Utimate
 
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ZephyrZ

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Even if Doctor Mario did get any mobility buffs I wouldn't count on them being significant. Mobiloty is one of the main things seperating him from regular Mario, and increasing his mobility will be in opposition to that design decision whether he "needs" it or not.

I'm no Doc main but surely there's something the devs can do to improve his gameplan without contradicting the design philosophy behind him. I don't believe in there being only a single "right" way to buff or nerf any character - just personal gripes we individually want fixed.
 

The_Bookworm

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It's not very common, but during the late period of Smash 4 they increased the mobility and weight stats for Mewtwo, Charizard, Bowser, Samus, etc. So I wouldn't say that mobility buffs are entirely out of the question. It's probably just something that the devs aren't willing to hand out willy nilly which might explain why they do it in the latter stages of the game.
Weight and mobility stats is definitely something the Smash dev team definitely experimented more in SSB4.

All the mobility/weight stat buffs in SSB4 included:
:4falco: Air speed buffed in 1.0.8: 0.893 -> 0.93.
:4ganondorf: Weight buffed in 1.1.3: 112 -> 113.
:4kirby: Weight buffed in 1.1.3: 77 -> 79. Run speed buffed in 1.1.3: 1.5 -> 1.57.
:4sonic: Weight nerfed in 1.1.3: 95 -> 94.
:4lucario: Run speed buffed in 1.1.3: 1.4847 -> 1.55. Walk speed buffed in 1.1.3: 1.0 -> 1.05. Air speed buffed in 1.1.3: 1.01 -> 1.09.
:4mewtwo: Run speed buffed in 1.1.3: 1.696 -> 1.9, further increased in 1.1.5: 1.9 -> 2.05. Walk speed buffed in 1.1.3: 1.0 -> 1.2. Air speed buffed in 1.1.3: 1.15 -> 1.25. Weight buffed in 1.1.5: 72 -> 74.
:rosalina: Weight nerfed in 1.1.4: 78 -> 77.
:4zss: Weight nerfed in 1.1.4: 81 -> 80.
:4sheik: Weight nerfed in 1.1.4: 85 -> 84, further reduced in 1.1.5: 84 -> 81.
:4dedede: Air speed nerfed in 1.1.4: 0.658 -> 0.63. (WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!?!?!??!?)
:4bowser: Weight buffed in 1.1.5: 128 -> 130. Air speed buffed in 1.1.5: 0.98 -> 1.0.
:4charizard: Weight buffed in 1.1.5: 115 -> 116. Air speed buffed in 1.1.5: 0.87 -> 0.92.
:4samus: Air speed buffed in 1.1.5: 0.95 -> 1.03.
:4corrinf: Run speed nerfed in 1.1.5: 1.5 -> 1.45. Walk speed nerfed in 1.1.5: 1.2 -> 1.15. Air speed nerfed in 1.0 -> 0.97.

As you can see, a lot of these changes happened late in the patch cycle.
Also, most of these changes are pretty negligible, with the obvious exceptions being Mewtwo's big run speed buffs and Sheik's big weight nerfs.
Lucario's run speed buff is noticeable too, but not nearly as big as the aforementioned two changes.

I like how they gave weight buffs/nerfs to characters that don't need them.
What does Bowser, Charizard, and Ganondorf need? More weight obviously!
How should we nerf ZSS, Sonic, Rosalina, and Sheik (in 1.1.4)? We shall reduce one single unit of weight to them! It will make a huge difference! Them being 'heavy' is obviously the reason why they are dominating tournaments, right?

In Ultimate, here are all the changes to mobility/weight stats:
:ultmewtwo: Weight buffed in 3.0.0: 77 -> 79.

... and that is it.
Given that SSB4 had that one Falco change before the real stuff happened, I wonder if Ultimate will endure the same thing.

Well it's not like Mobility buffs never happen in Smash. Look at the mobility buffs :ultdoc:


Mobility buffs are rare in Smash period yes, but the rare instances characters that desperately needed them a fully for it. Saying it was game-changing would be an understatement

I mean look at the huge mobility :ultpalutena: got in Ultimate. That was one of the largest factors that got her languishing at the bottom during the entire lifespan of SSB4 tier to sykrocketing the top tier level in Utimate
We are mainly talking about stat changes in the middle of a patch cycle. As seen above, we only got one
Dr. Mario's mobility is actually lower relative to the cast than in SSB4.
Palutena simply received the same universal mobility changes as everyone else. She already had great mobility, it is that she didn't have a good moveset or frame data to back it up in SSB4, which is what she was granted with in Ultimate.

Even if Doctor Mario did get any mobility buffs I wouldn't count on them being significant. Mobiloty is one of the main things seperating him from regular Mario, and increasing his mobility will be in opposition to that design decision whether he "needs" it or not.

I'm no Doc main but surely there's something the devs can do to improve his gameplan without contradicting the design philosophy behind him. I don't believe in there being only a single "right" way to buff or nerf any character - just personal gripes we individually want fixed.
It sorely depends on the significance of the mobility buffs he may receive. If the change is minor, then things will not change for the character.
There are other important aspects that needs to be addressed as well with the character. A few unsafe-on-hit-at-low-percent moves (including his own OoS option move) and awkward launch angles on a few of his moves (up smash comes in mind).
This is also mainly a personal vendetta, but I am still confused on why his forward smash have so much less range than Mario's, if he needs to move his slow body to virtually insidee the opponent to land the sweetspot.
 

MrGameguycolor

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Basically this.

Yes, :ultdoc: can get a mobility buff.
Any character can have any buff.

But as said before:

Even :ultsheik: can kill at 60% with a fully charged Up-Smash under Small Battlefield's platforms.
Is that probable enough to seriously consider in a real serious tournament setting?
No.

As much as I'd love for that to be the case, it's been 20+ patches throughout the span of two games, and :ultdoc: never once received a proper, significant mobility improvement. Even during the transition between games when nearly everyone else got it...

I'm just being realistic.

Mobiloty is one of the main things seperating him from regular Mario, and increasing his mobility will be in opposition to that design decision whether he "needs" it or not.
You do know you can tone down a character's weakness and still keep their personality and design intact...

It sorely depends on the significance of the mobility buffs he may receive. If the change is minor, then things will not change for the character.
There are other important aspects that needs to be addressed as well with the character. A few unsafe-on-hit-at-low-percent moves (including his own OoS option move) and awkward launch angles on a few of his moves (up smash comes in mind).

This is also mainly a personal vendetta, but I am still confused on why his forward smash have so much less range than Mario's, if he needs to move his slow body to virtually insidee the opponent to land the sweetspot.
I'd be all for this.
My guess with F-Smash is they had the classic thought of "He'd be too powerful if this was like this, let's not do that."
 
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SwagGuy99

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Even if Doctor Mario did get any mobility buffs I wouldn't count on them being significant. Mobiloty is one of the main things seperating him from regular Mario, and increasing his mobility will be in opposition to that design decision whether he "needs" it or not.

I'm no Doc main but surely there's something the devs can do to improve his gameplan without contradicting the design philosophy behind him. I don't believe in there being only a single "right" way to buff or nerf any character - just personal gripes we individually want fixed.
I mean, there are other buffs that would be nice for Doc, but for him to be improved so that his viability is more in line with the rest of the roster, the best ways to go are either a recovery buff or an air speed buff I'd say. Improving Doc's normals only does so much, as we saw in the transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate and again in patch 7.0 of Ultimate. The changes to his normals are nice, but they haven't helped him all too significantly.

Improving Doc's moveset doesn't make him significantly better because his issues don't revolve around his kit not being well-rounded like some of the other low tier characters like Mac. In all honestly, when you look at Doc's moves individually, separated from the attributes of the character they're attached to, his kit is probably one of the most well rounded in the game. The main problems with Doc is that his slow speed and extreme fragility offstage means that he frequently can't take advantage of all of these great moves at his disposal because he's dying offstage at 30% or being walled out by disjoints.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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The EPI Japan inivstional has started . For anyone who is otchingg to see top-level offline competive play in quite some time

The first match set was Zackray :ultwario::ultrob: 3-1 Etjusi :ultpikachu: Zackraywint the first 2 games of the set with Wario the first 2 sets I'm guessing since his..well not mains..more.well the 2 characters that he uses more than his other giant roster . :ultrob::ultjoker: do not like the Pika MU. But then Zackray went to R.O.B game 4 and 3-stocked Etsuji. And yeah , that was that .
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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We'll just have to wait until the Smash team is completely done updating the game to say for sure. Judging by the situation, perhaps that would be by mid-late 2022.
 

Cheryl~

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I just hope that if they do go about buffing the low mobility characters, they stop handing them more kill moves because they really don’t need them, and literally nobody likes being killed at stupid percents by random Smash attacks, or an Incineroar side-B and stuff like that. It’s only gonna encourage the opponent to camp them harder to avoid the cheese, and with characters like Doc and Incineroar having such bad movement stats as it is, giving them more ways to kill early is lowkey nerfing them in the long run if the opponent decides to be smart and not interact with them at all. Buffing the mobility is really the only way to make them more competitively viable and “healthy”. (Incineroar with speed would be pretty toxic though)
 
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StrangeKitten

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I mean, I'm not saying Incineroar and Doc need to zippity zip across the stage at the speed of Sonic. But better ground speed so that getting in is still hard but not as much of a chore? Better airspeed for better aerial followups and slightly improved recovery? Would be quite nice. They can be improved in these areas without losing their design of being slow characters. There is middle ground.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Results for the EPI Invitational Group A Bracket

Zackray, Shogun and Kept all qualify for the Final Bracket. Zackray wins extremely dominantly over Shogun in the Grand Finals using :ultjoker: with last game being a 3 stock.

  1. Zackray :ultwario:, :ultjoker:, :ultrob:
  2. Shogun :ultsnake:
  3. Kept :ultvillager:
  4. Eim :ultsheik:, :ultjoker:
  5. Choco :ultzss:
  6. Shky:ultzss:
  7. Etsuji :ultpikachu:
  8. Kirihara :ultrosalina:
(Choco, Shky, Etsuji and Kirihara all got last place)
 
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ZephyrZ

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You do know you can tone down a character's weakness and still keep their personality and design intact...
Well, yeah. I think a small movement buff would probably be fine.

But I'm not confident a small one would improve him to the point people will start calling him "viable" on its own.
 

SwagGuy99

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Well, yeah. I think a small movement buff would probably be fine.

But I'm not confident a small one would improve him to the point people will start calling him "viable" on its own.
I feel like there is room for a balance to be struck between a drastic improvement to :ultdoc: movement and one that's too small to matter. Obviously, doing something like reducing the negative multipliers attached to his movement attributes by 50% while also increasing his up-b distance to match :ultmario: is complete overkill since we don't really want to create an even more extreme version of Mario than we already have. I feel like Doc needs less changes to be decent than people realize, and I feel like most aspects of his kit are fine as is.

Someone mentioned buffing Doc without altering his movement attributes/weight/recovery distance earlier in this thread, and while I think that would be much less effective and would require more individual changes than a few smaller attribute changes, if we were to go this route of improving Doc, here's what I'd say are some more major changes that I would make:

  • Make Doc's hurtbox slightly smaller around his head
    • From what I can tell, his hurtbox is like this around his head because Mario and Luigi have hurtboxes on their hats, something that I know causes Luigi (and maybe Mario as well, I don't play Mario enough to really confirm this) to be shield poked more frequently. I think this should be changed for them as well, because this inconsistency doesn't seem to exist for most of the roster.
  • Allow up-tilt to hit grounded opponents easier.
    • Up-tilt is already a good move for putting people above Dr. Mario and you can get some followups off of it at low and mid percents and it can start killing at higher percents, but this move struggles to hit most characters on the ground, which severely limits it's utility.
  • Give f-smash a slightly bigger hitbox.
    • This is in order to allow it to 2-frame easier like Mario's when angled down. I think leaving the sourspot as the tipper is fine though, since the sourspot of Doc's is already pretty strong to begin with.
  • Decrease the landing lag of Doc's b-air by 3 frames and make the hitbox very slightly wider than it currently is.
    • Doc's b-air is arguably about on par with Mario's when judged in a vacuum. It's stronger (in terms of both damage and knockback) the hitbox stays out for longer, however the hitbox is also very, very slightly thinner, Doc's is slightly less safe on shield, and the Doc's has 4 additional frames of landing lag. This is one of Mario's main moves for dealing with disjoints, and while some faster characters may prefer having Doc's b-air in it's current state to Mario's, I feel like since Doc's is attached to a slower character, improving it to help him deal with disjoints isn't a bad idea. Dr. Mario would definitely be able to get more use out of his b-air against characters with strong disjoints if the move more closely matched Mario's in terms of landing lag. The hitbox change isn't necessary really, but I don't see a reason as to why it is slightly smaller than Mario's to begin with.
 
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The_Bookworm

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It is finally time for the next DLC character.
It has been a while since Min Min has been released. No where near as long as the time gap between Byleth and Min MIn, but still rather long.
With the new DLC character in the horizon, it will also be accompanied by a patch, so we may see some changes, although at what degree is unknown.
 

MrGameguycolor

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It is finally time for the next DLC character.
It has been a while since Min Min has been released. No where near as long as the time gap between Byleth and Min MIn, but still rather long.
With the new DLC character in the horizon, it will also be accompanied by a patch, so we may see some changes, although at what degree is unknown.
Here's hoping for we set a Good Omen for everyone who needs help...
(please let doc be apart of it)
 

Lacrimosa

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Let's see...Rob, Sonic, Snake and Palu all do extraordinarily well in the Online-Meta.
So, I expect some nerfs to those 4 characters in one way or another.

Pikachu dodges the nerf bullet once again.
 

MrGameguycolor

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Let's see...Rob, Sonic, Snake and Palu all do extraordinarily well in the Online-Meta.
So, I expect some nerfs to those 4 characters in one way or another.

Pikachu dodges the nerf bullet once again.
I think we're past the nerfing phase for this game.

The balance team seems pretty satisfied with the top dogs.
 

Lacrimosa

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I think we're past the nerfing phase for this game.

The balance team seems pretty satisfied with the top dogs.
Certainly a possibility. Skimming through the 8.0 patch notes, I didn't see any notable nerf to a character, outside of Palu's Final Smash and that' not relevant here.
So, after seeing this, I wouldn't be surprised about seeing no nerfs at all.
 
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