Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Thinkaman]

People sure are having weird takes about parry being the same in the game this week as it was last week.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Since it's marginally relevant I do want to throw it in that I've always disliked the notion that heavies shouldn't be viable because they'd be "toxic" or "unhealthy". No one likes dying at 60%, but almost all good characters have traits people don't like. I don't see how heavies being able to kill early is any more toxic then zoners (aka "spammers") or rushdown (aka "mashers") exploiting their own strengths.

And evidently, when superheavies are good they don't get the same level of hate as zoners at around their viability level, at least outside of the most casual levels. Far more people dislike Ivysaur then Charizard, or Young Link compared to Bowser. Not that I at all condone whining about characters who'd dare utilize defensive play styles.

I think for variety's sake, we should all want the game to be balanced as much as it possibly can while still maintaining individual character's strengths and weaknesses, regardless of our tastes or distastes of certain play styles.

Not that I'm the type who cries for buffs. I just don't want to see people crying when some characters do inevitably get some much needed buffs in the future.

 

[Damned1]

Don't want to go too long over this topic, but one think that annoys me is that a lot of people that say that a Heavy being fast or having good recovery/KIND OF quick and safe moves/armor etc. makes no sense (which IMO is already silly) also have zero problems with light or medium weights having very powerful attacks, even the strongest in the category. 's BThrow, 's DTilt and FSmash etc. are all super powerful moves on very light characters. But nah, heavy being fast or having relatively spammable moves like is a bad design, but a 2D man killing even heavier part of the cast below 100% with uncharged moves is completely ok "because he is a glass cannon".

Just so we are clear: no, im not against lightweights killing super early. Im just saying that small and fast characters already have a lot of advantages without limiting heavies based on the stereotype (i can't call it anything else).

 

[StrangeKitten]

How often are heavies killing at 60 anyway? Not often, because the moves that kill that early require reads. I main Incineroar, who has some of the best kill power in the game, and it's very rare that I'm killing at 60. I'd have to land an Alolan Whip right at ledge or with at least 2 Revenge stacks, or a sweetspot forward smash, to kill that early. You know what I kill a lot with when I play Bowser? Flying Slam, which doesn't kill reliably till around 120. I often end stocks as K Rool with down throw into up tilt, which kills around 130. Am I just a bad heavy player if I'm not killing at 60? Nope, because I've watched the best players of these characters, and the same can be said about when they kill.

Are there times you take stocks with smash attacks at 60? Of course, sometimes the right situations present themselves for doing so. But it's rare, and the same thing can be said for many characters. Joker will take stocks at 60 if he has Arsene and some rage and gets dair to up smash. Pikachu will take stocks at 60 if it gets a good edgeguard. Ivysaur will take stocks at 60 with a down air spike. Game and Watch can kill at like 20 with a down throw to 9. And so on and so forth. So I don't see why making the heavies (other than Bowser and Charizard who should remain as they currently are) better will somehow ruin the meta. They'll still be large characters who get comboed easily. But when I see a glaring flaw that really holds them back, I can't help but want to see it shored up a bit. Fix Ganon's hitboxes on moves that should have them but don't, give Wizard's Foot some actual priority so that it's not stopped by the tiniest projectile, help his poor recovery a bit, and give him a kill throw. Have K Rool travel faster during Kopter or give it less endlag so going high can be a viable mixup. You wouldn't create top tiers, but you would make both characters function better.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Bit odd to have “this heavy should not be buffed” and “no heavy is competitively viable” in the same post

Ignoring the nuance of my post doesn't make it go away.

The heavies have huge hitboxes and need advantages to compensate. K fool’s recovery is very predictable and goes to the ledge 90% of the time

at minimum the heavies should be better at surviving than the smaller, lighter top tiers.

What do you mean by "surviving?" If you mean living until very high percentages, then they already do. If you mean coming back to stage when launched away from it, then I'm not sure I categorically agree.

You could let k rool literally fly at will & he would still be worse than pikachu, who at present has a better recovery in addition to smaller hotbox and better frame data

No one is denying that Pikachu is a better character than K. Rool. Pikachu is better than most other characters too.

no smash game yet has produced a top tier heavy. Bring on the buffs!

Agreed, but make sure that not half their movesets are instant equalizers with hidden power in the form of instant super armor, massive and unintuitive disjoints, and 25 active frames first. Thanks.

The reason I don't like the way heavies are designed in Ultimate isn't that the kill early or whatever, it's that their power budget is all allocated toward killing you early and in surprising ways. It fosters a scrubby playstyle that's all about spamming special moves to fish for early kills, shield breaks, and gotcha moments. No one should want characters to be designed like this. Even the best Bowser and DK players constantly hail mary with stuff like Bowser down air and DK side-b. Find me a K. Rool player that doesn't just like constantly mash in disadvantage.

Their fundamental issue has never been solved, the way they are designed now just rewards things we used to think of as bad habits more than games past. I mean Kirby's bad too, should we just give Stone's cancel animation 25 frames of super armor and make up+b kill you at 60, or am I missing the point here? While we're at it let's make Dash Attack break shields and if he lands a Side-b on you, you instantly die. Kirby hasn't been good since Smash 64. Bring on the buffs.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ignoring the nuance of my post doesn't make it go away.


What do you mean by "surviving?" If you mean living until very high percentages, then they already do. If you mean coming back to stage when launched away from it, then I'm not sure I categorically agree.


No one is denying that Pikachu is a better character than K. Rool. Pikachu is better than most other characters too.


Agreed, but make sure that not half their movesets are instant equalizers with hidden power in the form of instant super armor, massive and unintuitive disjoints, and 25 active frames first. Thanks.

The reason I don't like the way heavies are designed in Ultimate isn't that the kill early or whatever, it's that their power budget is all allocated toward killing you early and in surprising ways. It fosters a scrubby playstyle that's all about spamming special moves to fish for early kills, shield breaks, and gotcha moments. No one should want characters to be designed like this. Even the best Bowser and DK players constantly hail mary with stuff like Bowser down air and DK side-b. Find me a K. Rool player that doesn't just like constantly mash in disadvantage.

Their fundamental issue has never been solved, the way they are designed now just rewards things we used to think of as bad habits more than games past. I mean Kirby's bad too, should we just give Stone's cancel animation 25 frames of super armor and make up+b kill you at 60, or am I missing the point here? While we're at it let's make Dash Attack break shields and if he lands a Side-b on you, you instantly die. Kirby hasn't been good since Smash 64. Bring on the buffs.

Ironically Kirby is good in 64 partially because of some misleadingly large hitboxes that you're complaining DK has today. And it's not like he was faster then than he is today, really he owes most of his strength then to the engine favoring him, just as Jigglypuff did in Melee.

Also the kind of stuff you're complaining about heavies isn't really exclusive to them. What about Game & Watch's key which is very similar to Bowser's? Or literally any character mashing out a fast sex kick nair to get out of a less than airtight combo?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ironically Kirby is good in 64 partially because of some misleadingly large hitboxes that you're complaining DK has today. And it's not like he was faster then than he is today, really he owes most of his strength then to the engine favoring him, just as Jigglypuff did in Melee.

Also the kind of stuff you're complaining about heavies isn't really exclusive to them. What about Game & Watch's key which is very similar to Bowser's? Or literally any character mashing out a fast sex kick nair to get out of a less than airtight combo?

I mean those things don't like kill you at 70% and aren't literally impervious to knockback.

For what it's worth, I don't entirely disagree with you. In fact, I talked about it in the post he was replying to:

This is an Ultimate-wide issue IMO and isn't just a heavy problem (I talked about Hero crit conveyance issues above, and stuff like pancaking and recovery animations making **** whiff are super annoying) but its' most noticeable with them because a successful hit means you die.

Anyway all I'm asking for is better visual indication for this stuff so that so much of their power isn't simultaneously invisible and lethal. DK side-b shield breaks from like a full Ness character length away from his model is very very silly and if he'd be bad without that then he needs more than a bunch of lazily applied super armor on all of his special moves.

 

[Myollnir]

Don't want to go too long over this topic, but one think that annoys me is that a lot of people that say that a Heavy being fast or having good recovery/KIND OF quick and safe moves/armor etc. makes no sense (which IMO is already silly) also have zero problems with light or medium weights having very powerful attacks, even the strongest in the category. 's BThrow, 's DTilt and FSmash etc. are all super powerful moves on very light characters. But nah, heavy being fast or having relatively spammable moves like is a bad design, but a 2D man killing even heavier part of the cast below 100% with uncharged moves is completely ok "because he is a glass cannon".

Just so we are clear: no, im not against lightweights killing super early. Im just saying that small and fast characters already have a lot of advantages without limiting heavies based on the stereotype (i can't call it anything else).

Being lightweight is a flaw, not an advantage. Of course they are going to need some stuff to make it worth it.

Being lightweight does not mean being small and fast, are huge, are slow.

Weight is often linked to the size of the hurtbox (but even then there are a lot of exceptions), but it litterally has nothing to do with mobility.

Being heavy is really good in Smash, it's not a con. What is bad is being combo food because you have huge hurtbox, no combo breaker and it's even worse if you're floaty (). I don't think and players ever complained about their character's weight.

I don't mind heavies at all, they were very effective in early meta due to how easy they are to use and how underdevelopped advantage state was back then (+ people being generally less precise). They've fallen off since then, and outside of which remained viable they all deserve a buff IMO, especially and .

 

[Damned1]

Valid Points..

I forgot to clear it: i used "Heavy" as in a stereotypical heavy, aka, big body superheavy. Might be because when i see ppl writing "heavy" online, they almost never talk about , or , so it slipped my mind. Similarly with lightweights (although is there a lightweight that is both slow and with bad frame data? ) . Sorry about that.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I forgot to clear it: i used "Heavy" as in a stereotypical heavy, aka, big body superheavy. Might be because when i see ppl writing "heavy" online, they almost never talk about , or , so it slipped my mind. Similarly with lightweights (although is there a lightweight that is both slow and with bad frame data? ) . Sorry about that.

Usually when people refer to heavies they are just talking about the super heavy big boys and the other heavy characters like the ones you mentioned aren’t being referred to. Like said earlier Wario and Snake very much enjoy their weight.

Regarding your question Bayo is the best example of slow with slower than average frame data who is also light. The others are more of a mixed bag with speedy light weights with above average frame data like Fox and Sheik and sorta mixed bags light weights like Greninja who is fast but their overall frame data isn’t trending slow nor fast or Isabelle who is slow but has rather decent frame data for her archetype.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

(although is there a lightweight that is both slow and with bad frame data? )

Best I can think of is , and even then it's kind of expected for their archetype.

Most the of lower-tier lightweights usually tend to suffer from lack of range or their frame data isn't as fast as the uppers tiers. (minus some special cases)
Ex:

 

[meleebrawler]

Usually when people refer to heavies they are just talking about the super heavy big boys and the other heavy characters like the ones you mentioned aren’t being referred to. Like said earlier Wario and Snake very much enjoy their weight.

Regarding your question Bayo is the best example of slow with slower than average frame data who is also light. The others are more of a mixed bag with speedy light weights with above average frame data like Fox and Sheik and sorta mixed bags light weights like Greninja who is fast but their overall frame data isn’t trending slow nor fast or Isabelle who is slow but has rather decent frame data for her archetype.

Calling Bayo slow-moving is weird when her specials are designed to rocket her across the screen and start combos while they're at it. The main example of a slow lightweight playing against type has actually been Zelda.

 

[Firox]

Do people consider to be a heavyweight? I hear he's lighter than Samus yet has the hurtbox of DK, Bowser, etc. I think he's got better disjoints than most other big bodies but otherwise I think he kinda got a raw deal by not even having the benefit of being heavy weight for his size.

EDIT: Looked it up and I guess Ridley's weight is 107 which is tied with Wario and Snake for 12th-ish, so he's reasonably heavy.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Calling Bayo slow-moving is weird when her specials are designed to rocket her across the screen and start combos while they're at it. The main example of a slow lightweight playing against type has actually been Zelda.

I meant her overall movement. Her specials aren’t used for movement. She isn’t using ABK to close space she’s using it to catch jumps and start combos. She doesn’t want to use it to try and traverse the stage very often due to the added lag drawback after using specials in the air. Aside being a fast faller she has below average air speed, below average walk speed and middling run speed combined with rather below average frame data overall.

Zelda is also a light character who’s really slow movement wise but she actually has rather solid starting frames on most of her normals and aerials.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Do people consider to be a heavyweight? I hear he's lighter than Samus yet has the hurtbox of DK, Bowser, etc. I think he's got better disjoints than most other big bodies but otherwise I think he kinda got a raw deal by not even having the benefit of being heavy weight for his size.

EDIT: Looked it up and I guess Ridley's weight is 107 which is tied with Wario and Snake for 12th-ish, so he's reasonably heavy.

Ridley's archetype is weird, he seems to be the mix of a glass cannon (for his size) but otherwise possesses the traits of a superheavy. He's strong in damage, has a slightly exploitable recovery (though it's not as bad as some other heavies) and has rather poor mobility in some of his stats, namely air speed/air acceleration. His frame data is surprisingly good for a heavy though.

On the topic of super heavies, I think MockRock's video on the subject is a very good one.

 

[Thinkaman]

There is nothing more scrubby than trying to narrow the scope of a game to only the parts you like or are good at.

Maybe something like Akuma or melee/brawl ICs is justifiable to say shouldn't exist, but otherwise it's just endless complaining.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I do see some discussion regarding the who the worst characters after this patch, so I'll give my thoughts on it.

Back in 7.0, my list would have looked something like this (the is unordered, hopefully I'm not forgetting anyone):

• Very bottom of Mid Tier/top of Low Tier:
• Low Tiers:
• Bottom Tiers:

Compared to now, I'd say this same list would look close to this:

• Barely Mid Tier:
• Still Low Tier, but very arguably the best one:
• Other Low Tiers:
• Bottom Tiers:

So there have been some changes in my opinions that were largely influenced by the changes made in 8.0, that I can explain.

• not much has changed with these guys. I don't think any of these characters have losing matchups against anyone worse then them (except the Doc/Ridley matchup) and in my opinion, their kits are too good for me to justify putting them with the other low tiers, despite all four of these characters having some major flaws in their kits.
• have all moved out of the low tier area.
  • As of right now, I feel like Bayo and Corrin are in the higher area of mid tier. Their changes did address some areas of their kits that were noticeably lacking (kill power, combo potential, frame data), but both of them (Bayo more than Corrin) still struggle to land kills consistently, although sometimes they can both explode and kill you at fairly early percents (Corrin with b-air or tipper pin near the ledge or Bayo with a combo off the side, for example). However, one thing that was not improved about either Bayo or Corrin were their abysmal disadvantage states. Both characters still struggle if you can get up close to them and both characters can die off of only one or two bad interactions. Which is why despite the fact that both of these characters are significantly better than they were before, I can't justify putting them above higher mid tier currently, although I feel like Corrin has potential to maybe be a bit higher than that.
• 's buffs were solid and have made him much more volatile and scary to fight against, but he's still extremely exploitable by the entire cast and likely won't ever make it out of low tier without some drastic changes to his attributes.
• and have all gained several new losing matchups out of this patch, which in my eyes, pushes them all down further.
• Despite her solid buffs, I don't think Isabelle has changed too significantly. She's still a good anti-zoner with decent trapping tools, and I feel like she will have a much easier time in the matchups she already did well in, but I don't think this patch did much in the way of giving her tools to take on more of the cast. She's still not great, but not terrible either.
• I feel like while K. Rools buffs don't matter nearly as much as some people say they do, they definitely mattered. His main gimmicks are better now, and being able to throw Crown out a bit more safely is nice, especially since it was already a solid move to begin with. I still feel like he doesn't do that well against many relevant characters (I think he has close to even matchups with as well as maybe now) and he still has matchups that are borderline unwinnable at top level ( are debatably the worst of these) but, what I do think this patch did was gave him tools to help him deal with the other low tiers better and toned down how difficult a few of his harder matchups are (I think he does much better against some of the swordies now).
• I feel like people are sleeping on how good DDDs changes were. He already had decent long ranged tools and a solid neutral, but he didn't always get enough reward for winning neutral which gave his opponents more opportunities to delete his stocks off of just one bad interaction because he's so easy to combo to death. Improving his kill power actually helps solve this issue somewhat, as he now gets properly rewarded for winning neutral, unlike pre-patch. Improving the range and startup lag of inhale also helps him against zoners, an archetype he has struggled a lot against since Smash 4. I think that DDD's potential as a secondary against swordies has increased greatly (I think he goes even with or beats and now) as well as his potential against some of the characters he did fine against in theory pre-patch, but struggled too much at killing for that to be the case (I've seen players say that DDD might be even and I think DDD straight up beats now as well). This character still suffers from the normal super heavy issues, but he arguably has more of a niche in the meta than the rest (except Bowser, obviously).

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Just to throw out there that I took a stock with charizard's dair spike at -40% it's ridiculously strong. Where when I try ivysaur's dair the opponent almost always recovers.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Just to throw out there that I took a stock with charizard's dair spike at -40% it's ridiculously strong. Where when I try ivysaur's dair the opponent almost always recovers.

What Ivy's dair doesn't have in power it does have in range.
Very non-committal 2-framing option and even if you go off-stage it's one of the safest spikes in the game.

I think it was nerfed in knockback(?) and rightfully so.

 

[TennisBall]

What Ivy's dair doesn't have in power it does have in range.
Very non-committal 2-framing option and even if you go off-stage it's one of the safest spikes in the game.

I think it was nerfed in knockback(?) and rightfully so.

Yeah Ivy Dair is still absurd, it literally invalidates some recoveries. Zard's Stomp is worth going for sometimes over Ivy Dair if you know the timing because as they stated it's really strong and will typically kill eariler. But 90% of the time Ivy Dair is just better as it completely covers the whole ledge with basically no cool off and you can sometimes just run off Dair as a mixup if they're expecting you to time a 2 frame. Works a lot against Lucina/Mario.
It got nerfed in power and size which makes sense. Up Air is still the same and quite frankly I appreciate the balancing of the Pokemon. I don't know where I would be without my -6 Charizard Nair.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There is nothing more scrubby than trying to narrow the scope of a game to only the parts you like or are good at.

Maybe something like Akuma or melee/brawl ICs is justifiable to say shouldn't exist, but otherwise it's just endless complaining.

You're right, we should just accept everything about Smash Ultimate as perfect and make no commentary about the aspects of its design that are flawed

 

[ZephyrZ]

What Ivy's dair doesn't have in power it does have in range.
Very non-committal 2-framing option and even if you go off-stage it's one of the safest spikes in the game.

I think it was nerfed in knockback(?) and rightfully so.

What happened was that it's sweestpot was shrunk and the knockback on its sourspot was nerfed. You can still kill just as early if you used to if you land the sweespot.

Honestly it was a pretty fair nerf.

 

[Thinkaman]

You're right, we should just accept everything about Smash Ultimate as perfect and make no commentary about the aspects of its design that are flawed

There's a difference between design critique (Why does PK Freeze do that? Why does the move even exist?) and speaking dismissively about an entire set of players/playstyle by proxy of their characters.

The DK who takes a stock with 2 perfect reads has just as much right to play the game as the Sheik or Pikachu who takes a stock with 25 actions that take low-risk consistency.

You dislike the former. I dislike the latter. Whatever.

 

[meleebrawler]

Did anyone talk about this temporary Japan-exclusive ranked mode already?

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2020...only-japan-resembles-traditional-ranked-play/

There's a difference between design critique (Why does PK Freeze do that? Why does the move even exist?) and speaking dismissively about an entire set of players/playstyle by proxy of their characters.

The DK who takes a stock with 2 perfect reads has just as much right to play the game as the Sheik or Pikachu who takes a stock with 25 actions that take low-risk consistency.

You dislike the former. I dislike the latter. Whatever.

It's mostly weird that the user complains mainly about DK's headbutt having an invisible disjoint and supposedly being "fished" alongside moves like Bowser dair even though those things aren't really related. God forbid heavies have moves that need to be respected.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There's a difference between design critique (Why does PK Freeze do that? Why does the move even exist?) and speaking dismissively about an entire set of players/playstyle by proxy of their characters.

With respect: this answer is ridiculous and you know it. You're smart enough to know that. We already know why heavies have the stuff that they have. The weaknesses of large-framed heavy characters have been litigated countless times on Smashboards over the many, many years it's been around. We know why they are the way they are in Ultimate.

Saying "this was the wrong way to balance them" is not scrubby nor is it an insult to players who enjoy heavyweights, and I even stated that my intention wasn't to come for heavyweight players in the post that started this debate. Literally calling me a scrub for having that opinion is an insult, however, so maybe check yourself there.

The DK who takes a stock with 2 perfect reads has just as much right to play the game as the Sheik or Pikachu who takes a stock with 25 actions that take low-risk consistency.

You dislike the former. I dislike the latter. Whatever.

"But what about Pikachu" really is the Reductio ad Hitlerum of this thread, isn't it?

It's mostly weird that the user complains mainly about DK's headbutt having an invisible disjoint and supposedly being "fished" alongside moves like Bowser dair even though those things aren't really related. God forbid heavies have moves that need to be respected.

I mean I'll grant you that "complaining about" Bowser dair alongside DK side-b looks weird, but the point I wanted to make is that "heavies" are designed in a way that rewards "fishing" for moves because they don't really have other tools in most cases. It's not an issue that they have to be respected, it's an issue that many of them have the potential to instantly take stocks at very low percents disproportionate to the risk given their weight.

Again, the thought experiment I posted above here is relevant: Kirby's super bad right now. There are good ways to buff him. You can increase his air speed, increase the range of his attacks, give him better ways to maintain control after a hit so that he doesn't have to contend in neutral as often, etc. There are a lot of very smart ways to buff Kirby that could make him a better character.

Or, you could like, keep buffing his special moves and dash attack over and over again so that they do more shield damage, more damage, more knockback, etc. encouraging Kirby players to hail mary more than they actually do, encouraging playstyles that don't feel deliberate and rewarding desperation and habits that have been universally called "bad" across every other Smash game.

I love Ultimate and I generally think it is the best Smash game ever made. But it's hard to look at it and not think "wow, they literally balanced some of the traditionally bad characters around the way low-level players wanted to play them." If you watch Kirby replays online you'll see tons of down-b and tons of dash attack and tons of rolling and inhale. The design team seems to have looked at that and went "this is great, let's buff those moves/reduce their risk" instead of asking "why are they doing all of these risky things so often."

Like, imagine if Dan's Shoryuken in Street Fighter 4 just did 500 stun if it landed or made jump roundhouse crouch roundhouse sequences auto-guardbreak. No one would want to play that game.

 

[meleebrawler]

You see what I meant a few pages ago where one person's smart read is another person's cheap fluke?

Kirby will never get meaningfully faster in the air when he is like that in the games proper, and low-level players will always spam moves like Stone no matter how effective or not the moves are, because all they need is for other players to keep calling for them.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I mean I'll grant you that "complaining about" Bowser dair alongside DK side-b looks weird, but the point I wanted to make is that "heavies" are designed in a way that rewards "fishing" for moves because they don't really have other tools in most cases. It's not an issue that they have to be respected, it's an issue that many of them have the potential to instantly take stocks at very low percents disproportionate to the risk given their weight.

Bowser dair kills ridiculously early? Doesn't seem ridiculous to me but I'll test it in training mode... So, Bowser at 114% for rage. FD which is average blast zones. It kills Pichu mid-70s at ledge with no DI. Does not kill center stage at this percent. I'd wager Pichu would survive at ledge with DI, and might even be able to survive a second due to move staling. And this assumes that the dair isn't stale to begin with, since it can be a good landing mixup in appropriate situations. Realistically, you're killing Pichu at 90ish with dair. Pichu. Another Bowser dies to it around 114 at ledge with no DI and fresh. So, to kill with dair early, it has to be at the ledge, and be fresh, no DI, and I gave Bowser rage which he won't always have. Otherwise, it lines up with what I had been thinking, which is that 120 is around when it kills on average. I don't consider that ridiculously early.

Are you thinking of the offstage spike? That does kill ridculously early. It wouldn't surprise me if that kills at 20. But if Bowser misses, it's a one-way ticket to the blast zone. Bowser should never go for dair offstage unless 100% certain of a read. Fair is what you use offstage, or you ledgetrap with Flame Breath, down-angled ftilt, or dtilt.

As for fishing, good luck with that! Dair is very unsafe on shield. If Bowser has conditioned his opponent to not shield much due to grabs, Flying Slam, or Bowser Bomb, guess which of these moves are unsafe on whiff? All of them! Spotdodging, rolling, air dodging, and even dashing away will make all of these miss, and they all have generous enough punish windows. Air dodge and roll staling might not even matter much if you use them to avoid the dair entirely. Or even get hit by the splash hitbox that sends nowhere.

So, pay attention to what Bowser is doing and respect his landing options. The same can be said of every character.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can someone lab how early charizard's sweetspot dair spike kills? Also the size on the sweetspot? (Mainly because dair's sweetspot on charizard is surprisingly large)

 

[Nah]

Can someone lab how early charizard's sweetspot dair spike kills? Also the size on the sweetspot? (Mainly because dair's sweetspot on charizard is surprisingly large)

Spoiler

idk which one of those is the one that spikes/is the sweetspot, but the size is nearly identical for both so

not gonna bother with finding out how early it kills, most spikes kill at very low percents anyway

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's mostly weird that the user complains mainly about DK's headbutt having an invisible disjoint and supposedly being "fished" alongside moves like Bowser dair even though those things aren't really related. God forbid heavies have moves that need to be respected.

Bowser dair kills ridiculously early? Doesn't seem ridiculous to me but I'll test it in training mode... So, Bowser at 114% for rage. FD which is average blast zones. It kills Pichu mid-70s at ledge with no DI. Does not kill center stage at this percent. I'd wager Pichu would survive at ledge with DI, and might even be able to survive a second due to move staling. And this assumes that the dair isn't stale to begin with, since it can be a good landing mixup in appropriate situations. Realistically, you're killing Pichu at 90ish with dair. Pichu. Another Bowser dies to it around 114 at ledge with no DI and fresh. So, to kill with dair early, it has to be at the ledge, and be fresh, no DI, and I gave Bowser rage which he won't always have. Otherwise, it lines up with what I had been thinking, which is that 120 is around when it kills on average. I don't consider that ridiculously early.

Are you thinking of the offstage spike? That does kill ridculously early. It wouldn't surprise me if that kills at 20. But if Bowser misses, it's a one-way ticket to the blast zone. Bowser should never go for dair offstage unless 100% certain of a read. Fair is what you use offstage, or you ledgetrap with Flame Breath, down-angled ftilt, or dtilt.

As for fishing, good luck with that! Dair is very unsafe on shield. If Bowser has conditioned his opponent to not shield much due to grabs, Flying Slam, or Bowser Bomb, guess which of these moves are unsafe on whiff? All of them! Spotdodging, rolling, air dodging, and even dashing away will make all of these miss, and they all have generous enough punish windows. Air dodge and roll staling might not even matter much if you use them to avoid the dair entirely. Or even get hit by the splash hitbox that sends nowhere.

So, pay attention to what Bowser is doing and respect his landing options. The same can be said of every character.

I think you have (unintentionally, probably) latched onto whatever I said about Bowser dair as an example of a move that kills super early when I don't think I ever really used it as an example of a move that does that. I did however use bowser dair as an example of a frequent heavyweight hail mary, which it absolutely is.

Side note, kinda wish bowser had a different dair, because his down-b is more or less the same thing but slower and with a shield break (I mean what isn't a shield break on a heavyweight but you know what I mean).

 

[StrangeKitten]

I think you have (unintentionally, probably) latched onto whatever I said about Bowser dair as an example of a move that kills super early when I don't think I ever really used it as an example of a move that does that. I did however use bowser dair as an example of a frequent heavyweight hail mary, which it absolutely is.

Side note, kinda wish bowser had a different dair, because his down-b is more or less the same thing but slower and with a shield break (I mean what isn't a shield break on a heavyweight but you know what I mean).

So then, which heavyweight moves do you think kill too early specifically?

It just occurred to me that you might be playing online. If so, smash attacks are far less reactable. K Rool and DK buries would also be far harder to mash out of. The laggy state of online is truly lamentable. Perhaps try playing offline and see how you feel, if you haven't in a while? CPUs are good enough to assess a lot of this with, if you can't find a practice partner. I come from a position of focusing on offline play, which might be why I see these as not much of a problem.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Spoiler

idk which one of those is the one that spikes/is the sweetspot, but the size is nearly identical for both so

not gonna bother with finding out how early it kills, most spikes kill at very low percents anyway

I think the sweetspot is the bottom part where charizard's foot is.

 

[TennisBall]

Can someone lab how early charizard's sweetspot dair spike kills? Also the size on the sweetspot? (Mainly because dair's sweetspot on charizard is surprisingly large)

You can just head to the PT Discord, there's a link in smashcords and the labbers there would probably be happy to help.

 

[|RK|]

With respect: this answer is ridiculous and you know it. You're smart enough to know that. We already know why heavies have the stuff that they have. The weaknesses of large-framed heavy characters have been litigated countless times on Smashboards over the many, many years it's been around. We know why they are the way they are in Ultimate.

Saying "this was the wrong way to balance them" is not scrubby nor is it an insult to players who enjoy heavyweights, and I even stated that my intention wasn't to come for heavyweight players in the post that started this debate. Literally calling me a scrub for having that opinion is an insult, however, so maybe check yourself there.


"But what about Pikachu" really is the Reductio ad Hitlerum of this thread, isn't it?


I mean I'll grant you that "complaining about" Bowser dair alongside DK side-b looks weird, but the point I wanted to make is that "heavies" are designed in a way that rewards "fishing" for moves because they don't really have other tools in most cases. It's not an issue that they have to be respected, it's an issue that many of them have the potential to instantly take stocks at very low percents disproportionate to the risk given their weight.

Again, the thought experiment I posted above here is relevant: Kirby's super bad right now. There are good ways to buff him. You can increase his air speed, increase the range of his attacks, give him better ways to maintain control after a hit so that he doesn't have to contend in neutral as often, etc. There are a lot of very smart ways to buff Kirby that could make him a better character.

Or, you could like, keep buffing his special moves and dash attack over and over again so that they do more shield damage, more damage, more knockback, etc. encouraging Kirby players to hail mary more than they actually do, encouraging playstyles that don't feel deliberate and rewarding desperation and habits that have been universally called "bad" across every other Smash game.

I love Ultimate and I generally think it is the best Smash game ever made. But it's hard to look at it and not think "wow, they literally balanced some of the traditionally bad characters around the way low-level players wanted to play them." If you watch Kirby replays online you'll see tons of down-b and tons of dash attack and tons of rolling and inhale. The design team seems to have looked at that and went "this is great, let's buff those moves/reduce their risk" instead of asking "why are they doing all of these risky things so often."

Like, imagine if Dan's Shoryuken in Street Fighter 4 just did 500 stun if it landed or made jump roundhouse crouch roundhouse sequences auto-guardbreak. No one would want to play that game.

Smash is a very simple game, and they're buffing the unique options of each character.

I think your argument would have more room if superheavies even approached a threat in high level play. As it stands, they're at best an annoyance.

Really, the superheavies are designed in a way that matches grapplers in many other fighting games. So I'm not really sure what the issue is here.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

You can just head to the PT Discord, there's a link in smashcords and the labbers there would probably be happy to help.

Where are the smashcords? I've never heard of them or seen any area on the smashboards that discusses them. It would help if you sent a link yourself.

 

[DougEfresh]

Where are the smashcords? I've never heard of them or seen any area on the smashboards that discusses them. It would help if you sent a link yourself.

You have to download the discord app and make an account first, then look up the smashcords and join any and all character servers you want. Someone from that server will send you the invite to join, then go ahead and read their rules plus flair yourself accordingly in that server (main/secondary/pocket or don't play the character). Rinse and repeat. It's also as good a way as any for most of us right now to find training partners for general practice or specific match up training.

 

[TennisBall]

You have to download the discord app and make an account first, then look up the smashcords and join any and all character servers you want. Someone from that server will send you the invite to join, then go ahead and read their rules plus flair yourself accordingly in that server (main/secondary/pocket or don't play the character). Rinse and repeat. It's also as good a way as any for most of us right now to find training partners for general practice or specific match up training.

Yeah Doug covered it perfectly. Here's the link to all the smashcords: https://smashcords.com/smash-5

 

[StrangeKitten]

Smash is a very simple game, and they're buffing the unique options of each character.

I think your argument would have more room if superheavies even approached a threat in high level play. As it stands, they're at best an annoyance.

Really, the superheavies are designed in a way that matches grapplers in many other fighting games. So I'm not really sure what the issue is here.

Bowser and Charizard are threats in high level play for sure (though the thing with Charizard is that he doesn't have to be a heavy until it's good to be one). Agreed otherwise

 

[KirbySquad101]

The problem seems to be less of a super-heavyweight thing and more about the polarization of extreme advantages/disadvantages that exists with lower tier characters, with the super-heavyweight archetype acting as the poster child of said polarization.

The thing is, the whole "highroll stock cheesing nonsense" doesn't really just stop with heavies or even low tiers.

You know what feels worse than getting hit by a yolo Bowser FSmash? Getting hit by one of Mario's -2/-3 aerials and knowing it's either leading to a stairway-to-heaven combo or a FAir kill spike. You know what feels worse than getting Inhale-cheesed by Kirby? Getting vortex'd by Fox/Greninja from 0 up until kill percent where they start spamming one of their safe kill confirms.

These aren't even all the examples out there: Stuff like Arsene DAir/G&W DSmash confirms at 50/60% or Wario Waft 0-to-deaths permeate throughout all of the upper tiers in this game and you still see soul stealing comebacks like this happen both at offline and online majors.

As much as I would like it, buffing Kirby's air speed isn't going to make Kirby mains go for DTilt-into-FSmash nonsense less often, nor is buffing DK's landing options going to stop him from going for Cargo Throw shenanigans. If anything, it's going to happen more frequently because Kirby's going to spend less time getting smacked in the face when approaching and DK's going to spend less time getting juggled nonstop.

I get that buffing Kirby's or any other low tier's strengths to ludicrous degrees might reach egregious levels (I don't think anyone enjoys the optimal counterplay against someone with as ridiculous damage/kill power as Luigi being "camp or die"), but I'm not so sure if getting rid of Kirby's weaknesses is the perfect way to go either.

 

[meleebrawler]

The problem seems to be less of a super-heavyweight thing and more about the polarization of extreme advantages/disadvantages that exists with lower tier characters, with the super-heavyweight archetype acting as the poster child of said polarization.

The thing is, the whole "highroll stock cheesing nonsense" doesn't really just stop with heavies or even low tiers.

You know what feels worse than getting hit by a yolo Bowser FSmash? Getting hit by one of Mario's -2/-3 aerials and knowing it's either leading to a stairway-to-heaven combo or a FAir kill spike. You know what feels worse than getting Inhale-cheesed by Kirby? Getting vortex'd by Fox/Greninja from 0 up until kill percent where they start spamming one of their safe kill confirms.

These aren't even all the examples out there: Stuff like Arsene DAir/G&W DSmash confirms at 50/60% or Wario Waft 0-to-deaths permeate throughout all of the upper tiers in this game and you still see soul stealing comebacks like this happen both at offline and online majors.

As much as I would like it, buffing Kirby's air speed isn't going to make Kirby mains go for DTilt-into-FSmash nonsense less often, nor is buffing DK's landing options going to stop him from going for Cargo Throw shenanigans. If anything, it's going to happen more frequently because Kirby's going to spend less time getting smacked in the face when approaching and DK's going to spend less time getting juggled nonstop.

I get that buffing Kirby's or any other low tier's strengths to ludicrous degrees might reach egregious levels (I don't think anyone enjoys the optimal counterplay against someone with as ridiculous damage/kill power as Luigi being "camp or die"), but I'm not so sure if getting rid of Kirby's weaknesses is the perfect way to go either.

When you say no one enjoys the counterplay of camping characters with extreme close combat power, is that supposed to mean the grappler archetype is inherently toxic?