Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[DougEfresh]

After two weird tierlists, finally a decent looking 8.0.0 tierlist:

8.0 offline list pic.twitter.com/KFOvnVW3MR

— ESAM (Stride Esports) (@imESAM) July 14, 2020

Idk that I agree with or especially in high tier, or that is top tier (although it's been clear that ESAM holds a very high opinion of her, so it makes sense she's that high up). Some other placements seem a bit off if I were to get nitpicky, but overall, I agree that this is definitely more sensible compared to other tierlists we've seen recently.

 

[Firox]

Idk that I agree with or especially in high tier, or that is top tier (although it's been clear that ESAM holds a very high opinion of her, so it makes sense she's that high up). Some other placements seem a bit off if I were to get nitpicky, but overall, I agree that this is definitely more sensible compared to other tierlists we've seen recently.

Real talk: Is Min Min really that good? Don't get me wrong, I see a lot of potential and she's still really new, but top tier? What do you guys think?

 

[Arthur97]

Well, that's kind of the problem with a fighter that will like take a good amount of time to optimize, who really knows? Potential? Certainly, but she might also fall flat.

 

[DougEfresh]

Real talk: Is Min Min really that good? Don't get me wrong, I see a lot of potential and she's still really new, but top tier? What do you guys think?

I think she has plenty of room left for growth and there's a good chance she'll still end up being pretty good, but I think Min Min will be closer to upper mid to low high tier rather than top tier.
Her lack of mobility really dampens her long term viability Imo (at least as a solo main), and I'll have to keep practicing the MU more with my characters as Min Min meta gets developed, but it seems like any character with decent mobility can find ways to exploit her blindspots to win neutral and put her in disadvantage (which also isn't too impressive overall Imo).

I also think neutral will feel considerably less annoying once we 1) learn and understand Min Min and her gameplan better; AND 2) we're all FINALLY able to take the wifi goggles off, allowing us to properly react and as a result have a more optimized punish game (which I think will be very crucial against her). I could be wrong on all of this though, so who knows.

 

[NotLiquid]

ESAM has a very liberal interpretation of tiering, partially because he's one of the few players who believes every character except the Bottom 10-15 range is a fully tournament viable character, and because he thinks people generally overrate MU severity in this game (i.e most MUs people think are -2s should generally be -1s).

With that out of the way, what I think him and quite a few other players have noted in terms of Min Min (since he specifically cites that Cosmos and MVD were in agreement with him over her qualities) largely comes down to a few talking points that were generally a bit underestimated before release.

- Min Min's combo game is actually pretty decent. Setting aside the fact that at a mid-ranged distance she generally keeps comfortable with minimal (and still strong) interactions, her NAir and UAir give her very strong combo options that in most optimized situations perfectly set opponents into off-stage disadvantage, and can completely cheese opponents with kills in a few other instances.
- Min Min's disadvantage is a notable Achilles heel, but it's not as bad as people often make it out to be. Big reason for that are her fast aerials; when off-stage she can afford roughly four to five Ramram NAirs assuming she still has a jump intact. I've already brought up a few times how FAir is equally as potent in warding off opponents who aren't fast enough to approach very specific angles. If she has a jump, she can be expected to make it back, and if she doesn't, well, she's not the only really good/"top tier" adjacent character in the roster who goes down easy after losing a jump.
- On-stage, while her combo breakers are largely situational, she sports some pretty deceptively good landing options; almost all of them stemming from a fast low-lag NAir which is very generous for her on block. Stall-then-fall DAir also accentuates those options.
- For the kind of character she is her general frame data is dummy strong and she's well equipped to handle even closer quarters engagements. Up Smash alone is practically a button for how good it is (fun fact: this move and DSmash are not only as fast or faster than Fox's equivalents; they're less punishable, have superior range, and are safer on block), granting her nasty whiff punishing capacity even at point blank range - something that Byleth and Simon are notably a little less fortuitous in having. She also sports some all around solid burst options with moves like dash attack, and her anti-airs cover a whole lot of her conventional blind spots. Marss pretty notably said on stream that her strengths became a lot more apparent once he realized the character should be played as a "Smash" character rather than an "ARMS" character, and I think that rings true; she's pretty privileged among the distance demon archetypes.
- Has obscene shield pressure.
- Between her powerful range and frame data, she's a monster at punishing landings and techs, and she reaps a pretty hefty reward from her grab.
- Min Min's edgeguarding state is deceptively non-linear, not just because she can decimate horizontal recoveries, but also because she can afford to extend low into the stage to dissuade low recoveries, and her grounded up B is a lot better than first expected since it's practically designed to chase high recoveries. When you're put into disadvantage against her, especially off-stage, it often feels like you're back to playing Melee - you're straight up compromised more often than not. I've talked a lot about how characters like Inkling get over their dubious kill state by going for edgeguards and ledgetraps, but while citing these traits regularly come across as a "consolation prize" type silver lining, this rings the complete opposite for Min Min given those strengths really are that pronounced.
- She's looking to have some pretty favorable MUs against characters that are either ubiquitous or meta relevant, such as Game & Watch and Ness. ESAM personally believes she also does well against Peach, Olimar and every zoner in the game.

Do all of those traits make for a character that's "top tier"? That's not a discussion I'm ready to have, partially because her weaknesses are still her weaknesses, especially if we pit her up against meta relevant MUs that that she's believed to lose to. Plus the whole "top tier" title is a pretty lofty distinction - one that's also somewhat arbitrary - but even with only two weeks under the belt I think this is shaping up to be a character that, despite high maintenance, just seems to have pretty much all the desirable traits you'd want for a character that mainly wants to play the distance, and that's not a distinction taken lightly.

There's much ado right now about what "works" and what "doesn't" work online, notably parries aren't as strong nowadays, but there's the flip side to consider; Min Min's preferred pokes and stronger neutral moves are somewhat dictated by her relatively precise hitboxes. Between that and Min Min's complicated inputs being somewhat at mercy of the buffer, there's a halfway decent argument to be made that she in actuality doesn't benefit enough from an online environment - at least on paper anyway. That and even with the diminished use of parries, a commonly held opinion that they generally aren't strong enough may ring more true when going up against her, depending on the match up.

 

[whitesnake]

After two weird tierlists, finally a decent looking 8.0.0 tierlist:

8.0 offline list pic.twitter.com/KFOvnVW3MR

— ESAM (Stride Esports) (@imESAM) July 14, 2020

Can’t imagine Hero in high tier. He is inconsistent and matchup dependent. Also hasn’t gotten great results anywhere & didn’t get major 8.0 buffs

 

[SapphSabre777]

So I was in the company of many in noting that 's changes weren't enough, that they don't change him whatsoever or fix him that much. However, I've been doing some practice and using better equipment to practice with, as well as looking at stuff other Kirbys are posting, and I have to admit I was wrong.

While the changes to aren't as drastic as say , , or , Kirby's changes helped in a manner that eased some of his biggest issues and make him more fundamentally identifiable as a little, small powerhouse/combo hybrid of sorts.

Spoiler: Buff Synopsis

Dash Attack: Good-sized buff overall, especially with lighter opponents. Dash Attack is now so strong that it sends every character, even Bowser, into tumble at 0%, which is big in allowing Kirby to have a burst option that grants him stage control. This gives him a burst option against select aerials to break aerial pressure and reverse it in his favor due to the now-forced tumble the move causes. This also allows Kirby to use DA as a combo finisher at ledge, or two-frame with it versus some characters, thanks to how vertically disjointed it is at the main hit, allowing characters to be KOed very early as a result ( gets KOed at 100% out of FD ledge, for example, even with proper DI and such). This will help further with Kirby's gameplan of getting in since a hit pushes back and corners the opponent where a confrontation with Kirby becomes harder to avoid, if not outright KOing the opponent in near-ledge situations.

F-Air: Best of the five buffs, and for good reasons. The buffs to F-Air 3 may have sabotaged re-grab combos, but it has given us much, much more to compensate as a result. F-Air 3 allows much more stage-control oriented combos than ever before, with F-Throw -> F-Air x2 -> Dash Attack being a favorite, and some new routes being discovered as well, such as F-Throw -> F-Air -> U-Air, as showcased by Mukyu, a high-level JP Kirby. Low-percent combos are much more practical now with F-Air as the added 1% on the final hit allows moves to combo off F-Air 3, such as Dash Attack and even strings from F-Throw combos if landing with F-Air 3, which leads to a lot of damage. To add to F-Air 3, it's power boost overall (even though knockback was decreased somewhat) has caused F-Air 3 to be only very slightly weaker than Kirby's N-Air (about 1-2% weaker), which is insane considering it functions as a neutral tool and a combo starter at the same time as well. This allows Kirby to further gain traction in neutral and advantage as this move forces the beneficial parts of those states faster with the power buff.

The F-Air 3 changes are great on their own, but the F-Air 2 changes make it even more savory. F-Air 2 to D-Smash is a string I overlooked at first, but after using frame-by-frame and other tools, this setup is legit. SH FF F-Air 2 alone provides a lot of utility and frame-trapping all in one. At low to mid-%s, SH FF F-Air 2 acts as a combo tool that allows him to string the move into his tilts or even a grab on hit, or frame trap with his F2 jab versus grabs. Considering Kirby can get 20 to 30% off of these interactions, this is great to boost Kirby from the mid-% game to the high-% game. Then there is F-Air 2 to D-Smash, which is made even more lethal due to D-Smash's buffs to it's frame speed and knockback. This KO setup is lethal due to the power D-Smash has, the angle it forces the opponent, and one dark secret that SH FF or even falling F-Air 2 holds: forcing soft landing lag to further frame-trap you, even capable of frame-trapping Mac's F1-invincible Up-B. Overall, F-Air's buffs are incredible for Kirby in every way.

B-Air: Kirby's B-Air is back to being his strongest KO option for aerials, having received a knockback buff that makes it much stronger than N-Air (8-10% KO gap between the two moves). The added knockback increase also allows this move to combo much better when using landing B-Air at low-%s, and can force tech-chases at even earlier %s than before, meaning that it now has much more utility along with power overall. This will make creating stage control through interaction and sealing stocks much easier for Kirby, and makes ledge trumps with Kirby very viable due to how strong the move has become.

D-Smash: I overlooked hard on this one. D-Smash went from Kirby's worst Smash Attack to having a very powerful role in his arsenal of Smash Attacks. This move is now F7 with more added knockback at the same disgusting semi-spike angle that many characters loathe, which sounds very good on paper already. This now allows Kirby to have a very powerful out-of-parry and spotdodge option to punish characters even harder than before (think Young Link Up-B and Cloud CS/LCS spotdodge punishes) and with greater ease, as well as force them into deep disadvantage due to the angle. When diving deeper into the move, D-Smash has now become a go-to KO finisher for a lot of Kirby's KO setups and combos, as well as making those setups and combos much more practical and rewarding as a result. F-Air 2 to D-Smash is already listed above, but FH AC D-Air into D-Smash and Kirby's "D-Air Ride" (U-Tilt -> D-Air -> D-Smash) really love the change to D-Air, allowing the move to catch big or tall characters and put them into a potential KO setup that is buffed in power and ease, which is huge for a character that had issues sealing stocks. This move will now be seen a lot more from top-Kirby players.

Stone: The Stone buff for Kirby is underrated for how strong this move has become, and while it is still risky to use in various circumstances, the massive buff to its power well-justifies the reward. Stone KOs opponents onstage quicker than U-Smash can ( at 91% with Stone, 95% with U-Smash, with out-DI, fresh, for context) and that move is being thrust upon characters with recoveries Kirby ordinarily can't touch. Now, as a result of the buff, Kirby can finish off characters much more efficiently, even forcing untechable stage-spikes at practical %s ( at 98%, at 106%; fresh, no rage; optimal LSI). This means you get KOed up top or KOed by stage-spike now, with the walled-stages not helping you avoid a KO off the top either as well. It still has its obvious risks, but the rewards are more than enough for its use now.

Spoiler: Overall Change Status

With the above changes explained, where does this leave Kirby in the meta? In my opinion, and in the opinion of SupergirlKels in this video, he now has the looks of a mid-tier that is in the middle of it, not as low as ESAM says, but not as high as Dabuz says (results are a big factor post-COVID).

His flaws overall remain the same in that his aerial mobility and range make it hard for him to approach at times, and having a weak KO throw hinders him a bit; however, the buffs have done a great job in establishing Kirby's role as a powerhouse/combo hybrid, and giving him the strength needed to actually get his great advantage more consistently and to seal stocks much faster and effectively, which is huge.

This finally leads to "camping/zoning", a concept Kirby hated because it was a counter due to how he lacked the strong stock-sealing moves prior to this patch...and honestly the whole reason why I made this lengthy post. While he certainly doesn't appreciate it, camping/zoning/runaway no longer is as treacherous for Kirby as it once was, since the buffs to his power and utility turn Kirby from a character that you ran away from because he can't fight back from it, especially after getting the "camp-break" hit, to a character that you camp/zone/runaway from because him getting in is dangerous for your stock, lead, and strategy, and even one exchange can keep him tangled to you. To top it all off, this concept can be shown in this set here:

Despite a slow start from Ron, he's able to not only break the camp with Copy Abilities, but he's able to counterplay the runaway using multiple-jumps, Kirby's strong aerials (N-Air on Pikmin) to get close and scramble around with Shuton, with the F-Airs at the second stock and the Dash Attack at final stock being pivotal to enforcing Kirby's advantage against Shuton's Olimar for KOs and damage. While Ron loses Game 2 to Shuton's K. Rool by spike, he still uses the very same tactics to weave around the Blunderbuss and Crown to get damage and traction in the match, same concepts apply in Game 3 to beat Shuton.

While Ron does lose to Prand Grix in the Finals (1-3), his showcase of Kirby's buffs versus Shuton made it clear that camping and running away are no longer the viability-killers like they once were for Kirby. While they'll be a fundamental issue for Kirby because of his innate design, along with range and such, the boons that Kirby now has more than make up for it and allow him to effectively break camp and gain a lot of traction when he catches the opponent. They have made him a much more solid, fun character; not high tier or upper-mid just yet, but an in-the-middle tier that can now hold onto potential and can fair well at top-level play, imo. It's up to the players to make the most out of him and make him grow (and hopefully make the concepts of Kirby much more clear for the public eye and their own playerbase).

What a ride from base to 8.0 .

Thoughts of individual buffs are in the first spoiler and the conclusion and thoughts of the character now are in the second.

 

[Myollnir]

- She's looking to have some pretty favorable MUs against characters that are either ubiquitous or meta relevant, such as Game & Watch and Ness. ESAM personally believes she also does well against Peach, Olimar and every zoner in the game.

You should take what ESAM says about the - match-ups with a grain of salt.

Keep in mind that he WANTS her to do well against them because that's what he is looking for in a secondary.

I have been exclusively playing since her release, and these are far from good match-ups, especially , who WILL kill you at any % offstage, due to B-air being a multi-hit and thus being impossible to challenge with ARMS (they will clank and unlike single hits, you can't use the other ARM to punish after clanking).

You can't outmanoeuver him due to the huge difference in airspeed so challenging with N-air is really situationnal, leaving her with only a 50-50 between neutral airdodge and double jump. At higher %, you'll have more time to cover yourself with Dragon Smash Laser fastfall at very long range or any combination of RamRam and Dragon tilts and smashes at a closer range, so you're less likely to get gimped, but you'll still struggle to get out of the ledge alive against , despite good get up attack and roll (probably the worst ledge jump of the game though).

also CANNOT land against 's U-air/N-air spam.

She does not have "deceptively good landing options". In addition to having a below average fall speed, she has an atrocious horizontal mobility that prevents you from covering yourself properly with a N-air like can do. D-air is her only option but then again it's not something great, it can be beaten very easily (outside of the first 4 active frames which have a great hitbox), and it has a lot of landing lag (as it should) if not autocancelled (and doing so will make the hitbox disappear before reaching a short hop height).

Her best options remain the global ones : phantom footstools are super useful with and MUST be abused, but obviously it won't work against disjoints. Fastfall airdodge remains the best landing tool for her, but you need to be able to fastfall in the first place, which isn't always possible, and since she doesn't fall quickly, she can't get away with non-fastfall airdodge as much as other characters ().

Speaking of her airdodge, it's frame 3, which is standard for her weight. Her best offensive combo breaker is U-air at a pretty slow F7 start-up (D-air can make some hits whiff and punish them in certain situations).

All of this makes her incredibly easy to combo and get offstage after only one interaction. Her offstage game - while not good - isn't as bad as people thought it would be. But her global disadvantage state is absolutely awful and it WILL hinder her viability (keep in mind most people haven't played offline again, it's a lot easier to abuse advantage state offline, which isn't necessarily a nerf for , more like a double-edge sword).

Despite what I have said, I do think that will get easier for as time goes on, because she really has the tools to shut him down in the neutral. It takes a lot of time to master her movement and keepaway game (it's not always wise to use ARMS attack in certain match-ups, conditionning with N-air often does the job better against characters that like to operate in the air). His UpB can be played around quite consistently, so that's a big thing in that match-up.

- Min Min's combo game is actually pretty decent. Setting aside the fact that at a mid-ranged distance she generally keeps comfortable with minimal (and still strong) interactions, her NAir and UAir give her very strong combo options that in most optimized situations perfectly set opponents into off-stage disadvantage, and can completely cheese opponents with kills in a few other instances.

Optimized Min Min is pretty scary, she can get quite a lot of % and insanely good positioning out of certain hits, be it with true combos or guaranteed tech chases.
Landing U-air is extremely situational, and even then it doesn't start a solid combo in 90% of the cases, there's just one very good string that starts with it that only works on a handful of characters).

- For the kind of character she is her general frame data is dummy strong and she's well equipped to handle even closer quarters engagements. Up Smash alone is practically a button for how good it is (fun fact: this move and DSmash are not only as fast or faster than Fox's equivalents; they're less punishable, have superior range, and are safer on block), granting her nasty whiff punishing capacity even at point blank range - something that Byleth and Simon are notably a little less fortuitous in having. She also sports some all around solid burst options with moves like dash attack, and her anti-airs cover a whole lot of her conventional blind spots. Marss pretty notably said on stream that her strengths became a lot more apparent once he realized the character should be played as a "Smash" character rather than an "ARMS" character, and I think that rings true; she's pretty privileged among the distance demon archetypes.

Heh, I disagree. Good examples of characters having good enough frame data to handle close combat would be , who have a spammable button in D-Tilt despite wanting to play at mid range.
really doesn't. Jab is pretty slow at Frame 5 and does nothing special, U-Tilt is a very bad move despite being Frame 5 as well, she does not have an F-Tilt, and her D-Tilt, while pretty good, is quite slow at Frame 10 and not exactly safe (but you'll get away with it most of the time against a lot of characters).
Dash attack however, is very valuable, hitting higher than D-Tilt (which is very important in Ultimate, anti-ground moves aren't that good outside of situations where a shield has been hit and the flow of the game has stopped / slowed down, it's a very aerial game. Frame 7 and its general animation makes it a really good dash attack to whiff punish, it can be hard to react to if you cross up a shield, and while it doesn't start a combo or kill very well (it can at higher % though), it does decent damage and gives a good position.
U-Smash while absolutely excellent as an out of shield option (Frame 7), SH/FH punish and even reflector, can't be considered a button at all. It's really unsafe (which is standard for a smash attack, not complaining). Having less endlag than doesn't make it better, keep in mind he has some confirms and pseudo-confirms (tech chase) into it, while doesn't, and 's is extremely laggy even for a smash attack, so it's not really a fair example.
Same goes for D-Smash, although I specifically want to mention that it's a key move in her moveset, as it covers the huge blindspot she would otherwise have behind her after a successful spotdodge / parry (since she has no F-Tilt).

absolutely can defend herself without her ARMS, but it would be lying to say that she can keep up with the rest of the cast at this range (let alone saying she is strong). Match-ups that force her to avoid abusing ARMS make her pretty awkward to play as, mostly because you know that one punished mistake will take you offstage/in the air, which you really don't want.

- Has obscene shield pressure.

While she does have some good shieldpoke / shieldbreak set ups, shield remains an excellent option against her. Her grab is OK to punish stuff, but not to punish shields. It can be reacted to and spotdodged if it's not used at close range. Smart use of shield will make her cry. I also want to mention that N-air is extremely hard to time if you want to avoid being shieldgrabbed, and you can't afford to delay it as much most of the time, so you'll want to space it.

- Between her powerful range and frame data, she's a monster at punishing landings and techs, and she reaps a pretty hefty reward from her grab.

Yeah her throws are surprisingly useful, her B-Throw deals 60+% (yeah, I know, it only does 17-18, but have you ever made it back onstage without taking at least an additionnal 40%?). Power Dragon is insane, it really is.
She's not really good at juggling, though, that would be her biggest weakness in advantage state, U-air is decent but not spammable in the air, does low damage output and kills pretty late (although it does kill, so there's that). U-Tilt is the same, pretty long endlag. U-Smash is a great tool, but it's committal.
You'll find yourself using N-air a lot to juggle because you want them to get sent horizontally (Megawatt and Power Dragon N-air can be used to kill during juggles as well).

Overall I think the character is pretty strong, but very match-up and stage dependant. Due to how unique she is, we're going to need more time to put her in a tier list. No one can come close to mastering her kit after only 2 weeks.

 

[NotLiquid]

absolutely can defend herself without her ARMS, but it would be lying to say that she can keep up with the rest of the cast at this range (let alone saying she is strong). Match-ups that force her to avoid abusing ARMS make her pretty awkward to play as, mostly because you know that one punished mistake will take you offstage/in the air, which you really don't want.

I'm not going to argue on your remaining points for the time being because you bring some good clarification and food-for-thought, but I think with this part you kinda misinterpreted the point in regards to why her frame data was even worth bringing up in the first place, namely not that it's meant to put her on the same level as top tier boxers, but that it's extremely irregular for a character with Min Min's range to be granted that level of CQC and anti-air options with data that good (hence the point leading off with "for the kind of character she is"). It essentially stands in stark contrast with what we've traditionally seen with Smash where characters of this ilk can only sport those numbers with several caveats when close-range only exists as a way to get opponents back into long range, even at critical percents. Byleth has one pretty solid close-range option with NAir. Simon's best OoS options are DTilt and Up B. They possess utility in their own way but only really exist as "get off me" moves at best. Min Min's best options by comparison juggle far more roles, and doesn't need to be pigeon holed into serving as a means to an end, allowing her to flex a little more than her long-ranged counterparts.

My comment on up smash being a button is pretty bold faced hyperbole, though it's comparatively less hyperbole to suggest that it's a move that sees a metric ton of use because of how it helps round out Min Min's kit. It's a move that opponents are largely forced to respect and generally maintains a risk factor to erroneous close range engagements; same goes for a lot of her moves as a whole. It adds another layer to why optimized Min Min sports a whole lot of devious ground coverage even when the air is commonly believed to be where she doesn't like her opponent being. If her CQC was any way less punishable than it is then this character would be a complete disaster from a design perspective, but as it stands now I stick by my assertion that the data she has now is basically more or less exactly what you would like from a character of this kind in order to be good but not overbearing; part of the reason why I find her to be a very elegantly designed character in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Myollnir]

Zoners usually have some very good tools in CQC in this game (...), that's why I'm hesitant to say that 's is good, even for a zoner. I'm not sure why she should be compared only to , which are pretty bad characters (precisely because they lack good CQC tools).

It's not THAT uncommon for some smashes to be safe enough to be thrown out without much thought (hi ), so I was just making sure you didn't think it was the case for , as her U-Smash is -35/34 on shield (D-Smash is -33/-32, for the record).

If her CQC was any way less punishable than it is then this character would be a complete disaster from a design perspective, but as it stands now I stick by my assertion that the data she has now is basically more or less exactly what you would like from a character of this kind in order to be good but not overbearing; part of the reason why I find her to be a very elegantly designed character in the grand scheme of things.

I agree, they gave her some tools to try and match the opponent when they get close, without making her particularly good at it so that you still have to stick to her main gameplan of playing the keepaway game. You don't want this kind of confusing/unique character to be overtuned (hi ), but I'm glad they at least gave her a chance to be good.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Some smaller Japanese tournaments are coming back because Japan has dealt with the virus well

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Lacrimosa]

My tier list from the other day. Everything after mid is roughly ordered. I don't care about your opinions. Have at it pic.twitter.com/eFwMPXCVaG

— 🍥 Marss (@Marss_NE) July 15, 2020

*shrug*

 

[StrangeKitten]

My tier list from the other day. Everything after mid is roughly ordered. I don't care about your opinions. Have at it pic.twitter.com/eFwMPXCVaG

— 🍥 Marss (@Marss_NE) July 15, 2020

*shrug*

Well, of course I disagree with the Zelda and Pika placement but I've said my peace on those two. Other than that, nothing stands out as too egregious to me. Finally someone puts Incin and Plant where they should be instead of bottom 10
Edit: Okay DK's too high though

 

[blackghost]

i may be being stubborn but has there been anything actually won or placed from the pits??

also shoutouts to japan for getting the vius done. anyone know if there is a scene in new zealand?

 

[StrangeKitten]

i may be being stubborn but has there been anything actually won or placed from the pits??

also shoutouts to japan for getting the vius done. anyone know if there is a scene in new zealand?

There's this:

Idk exactly how they placed because everything is in Japanese, but it says "Finals" so I would assume at least 5th

 

[The_Bookworm]

A nice little guide regarding one of 8.0 Ike's scariest, but most difficult confirms.

---------------------------------------------------------

My tier list from the other day. Everything after mid is roughly ordered. I don't care about your opinions. Have at it pic.twitter.com/eFwMPXCVaG

— 🍥 Marss (@Marss_NE) July 15, 2020

*shrug*

Seems like he doesn't have too high of an opinion on .
He doesn't seem to have think that Marth has improved that much to be warranted higher than he ranked him before. Granted that Marth didn't get as many flashy buffs as Ike or Corrin got, but this position put him as the worst FE character in the game.
Definitely has his viewpoints vastly improved upon players. Like what blackghost says, we will see the kind of stuff he can do in tournaments, but it does puts a tear in my eye to see him approach high tier placements in the eyes of top players since the first month of the game.

 

[SwagGuy99]

New Captain Falcon 8.0 MU Chart I made on stream, take a gander! pic.twitter.com/juqbkuzfXn

— Griffin Miller (@FatalityFalcon) July 15, 2020

Fatality made a Falcon matchup chart for 8.0. A lot more winning matchups than the one he made for 7.0 and a lot less losing. There are a few characters who seem a bit out of place like and but I don't have too many big issues with this list other than I think Falcon might lose some of the losing matchups by a bit more than Fatality thinks (in other words, Falcon probably still has -2s but not as many as before and he for sure has no -3s).

 

[StrangeKitten]

Falcon seems a lot like Terry now. Hits like a truck, lots of combos and strings, super solid but enough weaknesses to be just shy of top tier

 

[Rocketjay8]

Falcon seems a lot like Terry now. Hits like a truck, lots of combos and strings, super solid but enough weaknesses to be just shy of top tier

Speaking of him, what on earth happened to ? I bearly see anyone talk about this character at all. Just when everyone was talking about how good the character was when he just released.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Speaking of him, what on earth happened to ? I bearly see anyone talk about this character at all. Just when everyone was talking about how good the character was when he just released.

He is still pretty dang good, especially in comparison to most of the other DLC characters.
The reason why we don't really talk about him anymore, is because all that is already said about the character has been said at this point. Not really much to discuss about the character right now.

 

[RonNewcomb]

is still doing damage in a lot of online tournaments. He seems to be doing pretty well for himself.

 

[KirbySquad101]

If you see Fatality's old match-up chart from a while back, there was a LOT that changed:

Here's the updated Captain Falcon matchup chart I made on stream earlier btw. Explanations for everything are in the VODS, which will be uploaded soon. pic.twitter.com/fTIRVeUsYc

— Griffin Miller (@FatalityFalcon) March 11, 2020

Going from losing 25+ MUs to losing at most 14 and at the absolute least 7 is a HUGE improvement.

Two big improvements on Raptor Boost based on what I've seen were:

1. It's significantly more effective at catching low-profile characters. This is especially necessary for Captain Falcon as a good chunk of his hitboxes are fairly horizontal, which left his aerials with some glaring blindspots against short bodies. He had ground moves as well, but aside from grab and up tilt, none of them lead to the huge reward game he gets from his aerials. We saw seeds of this buff in ESAM vs. Fatality's set when was able to catch some of 's aerials with Raptor Boost despite how low he squats. Having a tool that not only catches low profile characters, but also leads into highly damaging combos, 50/50s, and even KO confirms is such a HUGE boon against the likes of (which were all -1 match-ups previously with the exception of Pika and Inkling, which were -2 match-ups).


2. It whiff punishes FAR better now. Another major problem with was that his fairly/small precise hitboxes, in tandem with his slow turnaround, left him with a lack of effective burst options. Falcon Kick and Raptor Boost were you go to's in that area, but Raptor Boost would whiff even on the uppercut, and Falcon Kick, while strong, was very committal and was only effective at kill percents. With the added range, though, catching landings and looking for openings is much less of a chore - this is largely effective against characters who tend to use aerials often, like , or characters who intend to keep Falcon out with projectiles, like . These were all match-ups that were initially listed as -1 match-ups for Falcon in Fatality's previous match-up chart.

Funny enough, both of these points don't really apply (or apply as much) to , who's incredibly difficult to whiff punish due to a lack of lag or proper animations on any of his attacks, and is also someone who - despite his small size - never really low-profiled in general outside of down tilt and his crouch (both of which aren't used too often outside of a handful of situations). I'm assuming that's why Fatality thinks G&W might be the only match-up that's still too hard for Falcon to handle (that, and Maister 10-1'ing him in their first-to-ten set), though most of this is just based off of speculation and observation.
=========================================================================================

I won't comment too much on Marss' tier list but one major similarity between his and Dabuz's list is that they both placed in mid-tier or lower. And as hot take-y as this might seem, keep in mind that a good chunk of major Pichu players out there have been looking for other characters to invest in (VoiD has been spending a lot more of his time on now, Blacktwins has been investing in recently, and RFang has been investing in recently). This could merit some discussion.

 

[Djmarcus44]

KirbySquad101 I don't think that Pichu should fall into mid tier at this moment. The character has gotten more results than Pikachu in every phase of OrionStats. The Pichu players you mentioned were already spending time on those characters, but it is something to watch when offline tournaments start up.

Although it is late, I will post my thoughts on Gunner's best and worst matchups. I am not too sure about Gunner's best matchup. Gunner does very well against slow characters that can struggle with zoning. If I had to take a guess I would go with Ganondorf. Some other matchups that are good for Gunner are heavy characters and slow swordsman without reflectors. The worst matchup for 1332 Gunner in my opinion is Falco. Despite Gunner having a better neutral overall, Falco's lasers and frame 1 reflector disrupts Gunner's zoning considerably. Fox and Wolf are some other tough matchups for 1332 Gunner in my opinion.

A decent amount of Gunner players (most people on the discord from what I've seen) think the character is mid tier or higher, and quite a few of us think the character is a high tier. On one hand, the character doesn't see enough results to back that up. On the other hand, Gunner players have been doing well online, and it is hard to argue against Gunner being at least a mid tier from a theoretical standpoint.

 

[Krosshair]

I won't comment too much on Marss' tier list but one major similarity between his and Dabuz's list is that they both placed in mid-tier or lower. And as hot take-y as this might seem, keep in mind that a good chunk of major Pichu players out there have been looking for other characters to invest in (VoiD has been spending a lot more of his time on now, Blacktwins has been investing in recently, and RFang has been investing in recently). This could merit some discussion.

I think that most of the top Pichus save for Nietono (and even he has a pocket that he could bust out at any time) realized that the character is just too volatile to achieve consistent success with as a solo main and have begun to look into co-mains/secondaries to anchor their rosters.

 

[Minix0]

I made a rough match up spread for Ridley. I'm not some top player or anything but I do play competitively pretty often, so here's my two cents. I'm probably a little bias since Ridley is my main, but then again who isn't lol. I'm open to discussion.

As for explanations for some controversial placements:

-- Yeah she combos Ridley for days but she doesn't have anything that straight up invalidates Ridley. Her recovery is harder than average to gimp, but if she loses her double jump Ridley can capitalize quite easily. Not to mention Ridley outranges her with a lot of moves like dtilt and nair, so once Ridley gets in she'll get beat up pretty badly. That being said, I can see her being moved to +0.5 or even as well. Her counter messes up Ridley's recovery occasionally.

-- Ridley outranges her tremendously and she is quite easy to edgeguard. One simple nair is all it takes to kill her. Her combos against Ridley, while still effective due to being large, aren't anything too crazy. Counter is a pain when trying to recover, but I don't think one counter is enough to justify putting her in +0.5.

-- Prob not too controversial, but eh. I debated putting him in +0.5 or even. Ridley is combo food, and the new buffed Falcon is scary. That being said, Falcon can't edgeguard Ridley very well, and Ridley can combo Falcon just as easily, and edgeguard even easier. I can definitely see him going to even however.

-- Doesn't really combo Ridley that much. Projectiles are definitely annoying, but not totally invalidating. Isn't super fast either, so Ridley can gain distance pretty fast. Tall, so once Ridley gets in he can get in good damage, though a grenade would probably break it up fairly fast. Not to mention Ridley has pretty good range on Snake as well. Don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure up-b goes through nikita. Nonetheless, Ridley can mix up his recovery fairly well to avoid it anyway.

Snake's recovery is the biggest reason he's here however. Ridley has very little trouble gimping Snake. Once again however, I can see this being an even match up.

-- VERY, VERY, VERY annoying characters, but pathetically easy to edgeguard as Ridley. Might be a -0.5 or -1, but those recoveries keep me from doing that, especially since Ridley's main schtick is pretty much edgeguarding.

-- Again, very annoying character on stage, and kind of hard to edgeguard, but his hurtbox is massive. Ridley sort of outranges him as well. I'm fairly unsure about this pick honestly.

I think that's pretty much all of the spiciest opinions on this lol.

 

[Xfire]

Sharpy (Best Incineroar in Dominican Republic) posted his 8.0.0 MU chart:

Incineroar 8.0 tier list. I can confidently say, until Incineroars weaknesses are fixed, this will not vary. pic.twitter.com/9eqpgPa4tU

— Don Sharpy 💪🏼🇩🇴 (@SharpyUltimate) July 16, 2020

He believed the buffs did not change the MU's drastically since all it did was make his strengths better (Revenge, Kill Power, Grabs), not solving the issue of his weakness (Slowness) in design. It's rather pessimistic from my side since he was asking a few mains (including me) about our opinions of other characters; it's mostly based on "How camping is inherently a disadvantage state for Incineroar." I even discussed using the stats from smash.gg and the recent discussion of MU's to see if there would be any meaningful changes, but overall he felt like there's even more losing MU's compared to last patch (7.0.0).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think that's pretty much all of the spiciest opinions on this lol.

Honestly, the spiciest opinion here is that Zero Suit Samus is not anywhere near to being Ridley's worst matchup.

She's considered one of, if not his worst matchup.

 

[B_Burg]

Sharpy (Best Incineroar in Dominican Republic) posted his 8.0.0 MU chart:

Incineroar 8.0 tier list. I can confidently say, until Incineroars weaknesses are fixed, this will not vary. pic.twitter.com/9eqpgPa4tU

— Don Sharpy 💪🏼🇩🇴 (@SharpyUltimate) July 16, 2020

He believed the buffs did not change the MU's drastically since all it did was make his strengths better (Revenge, Kill Power, Grabs), not solving the issue of his weakness (Slowness) in design. It's rather pessimistic from my side since he was asking a few mains (including me) about our opinions of other characters; it's mostly based on "How camping is inherently a disadvantage state for Incineroar." I even discussed using the stats from smash.gg and the recent discussion of MU's to see if there would be any meaningful changes, but overall he felt like there's even more losing MU's compared to last patch (7.0.0).

I'm inclined to agree with your sentiment. I've been thinking about this sort of thing more, the buffs to strengths characters already have supposedly not changing anything and it's a mindset I'm finding myself disagreeing with a bit more as time goes on.

If nothing else, in the case of someone like Incineroar, I think that the power buffs he got are at the very least going to help make matchups that he was bad at that much more volatile in a good way for him. It may be true that it doesn't do enough to completely change a MU placing in a list or something to that effect, but even if it leads to needing one fewer exchange to take a stock in those difficult matchups, that can be pretty significant in my opinion. Maybe something that wouldn't change the list as he has labeled them, but something that might make a hypothetical -2 matchup into something closer to a -1.5 matchup.

 

[blackghost]

fatality did not perform vs samsara bayonetta like that MU was even.
now once again its samsora online using a character he isn't great with so its hard to tell. until i see a high-level falcon fight one of the like 4 high-level bayonetta players i'll just chart that a losing mu for bayo. falcon has her beat in too many categories for it to be even.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I made a rough match up spread for Ridley. I'm not some top player or anything but I do play competitively pretty often, so here's my two cents. I'm probably a little bias since Ridley is my main, but then again who isn't lol.

Did you play any decent Corrin players after the Corrin buffs? I don't see how Ridley could remotely be +2 vs Corrin, why do you think the matchup is so bad, after the massive Corrin buffs?

 

[Lacrimosa]

MU charts from mid-players are heavily influenced by the expereince they have on Online or locals.
Like, maybe you're a decent ZSS player but the best player in the region plays Zelda, so it's very good possible that the ZSS player thinks the MU is more even than it first looks (it's an awful MU).

Of course this doesn't apply to everyone but some placements in this chart look rather off (like the Zelda placement, I wouldn't say it's even after ven dominated a Ridley player in the losers bracket at Frostbite).

However, they can serve as a good discussion ground since sometimes there are misconceptions about characters that are discovered and hopefully debunked afterwards.
But not sure if posting MU charts from non-top players is something welcomed here.

 

[Arthur97]

How good was the Ridley player in comparison, and do you have more data for that than one set? And it's not like top level lists are immune to stuff like that. They can have distorted views from being too good themselves, or also a very similar phenomenon to the one you mentioned depending on who they play more often.

 

[blackghost]

MU charts from mid-players are heavily influenced by the expereince they have on Online or locals.

But not sure if posting MU charts from non-top players is something welcomed here.

i know a mod said none top players shouldnt be posting tier list in here in the past. but i also dont know what the cutoff is. sharpy is known but he's not like a top 25 pgr as far as i know.

as for corrin placement, as far as im concerned corrin was just added to the game. she's starting at zero becuase the character had no usage prior to 8.0. by that logic its way too early to place corrin anywhere for anyone's MU chart.

 

[Lacrimosa]

How good was the Ridley player in comparison, and do you have more data for that than one set? And it's not like top level lists are immune to stuff like that. They can have distorted views from being too good themselves, or also a very similar phenomenon to the one you mentioned depending on who they play more often.

Sure, that'S why I said it's good to have that stuff since it can serve as a ground for discussions but I also dare say that non-top players have an opinion that's more swayed in one way or the other by personal experience. It's just a guess of course. but most of the time it just takes one excellent player in order to change someone's mindset.

 

[Arthur97]

Sure, that'S why I said it's good to have that stuff since it can serve as a ground for discussions but I also dare say that non-top players have an opinion that's more swayed in one way or the other by personal experience. It's just a guess of course. but most of the time it just takes one excellent player in order to change someone's mindset.

Well, again, the same can be true at the top. Look at Fatality. Apparently he's been going around at least trying to convince other top players that Captain Falcon is good now.

 

[Frihetsanka]

i know a mod said none top players shouldnt be posting tier list in here in the past. but i also dont know what the cutoff is. sharpy is known but he's not like a top 25 pgr as far as i know.

Sharpy is probably notable enough. The average Smashboards user probably isn't.

as for corrin placement, as far as im concerned corrin was just added to the game. she's starting at zero becuase the character had no usage prior to 8.0. by that logic its way too early to place corrin anywhere for anyone's MU chart.

I guess we could view it as her being added as a DLC who existed in Smash 4. So we can use some Smash 4 logic to try to estimate where she is. Anyone trying to place her based on her prior Ultimate performance might be up for a rough awakening... She might've moved up 40+ spots on the tier list after the buffs! From a potential bottom 10-15 character to a potential top 20-25 character. Quite significant buffs, I'd say, not only is her advantage state better but her neutral is slightly better as well. Cosmos thinks she's top 15, I think he's a tad too optimistic but I could be wrong. Still, she's significantly better after the buffs and I don't really see how she'd lose -2 versus Ridley, like Minix0 claimed.

Well, again, the same can be true at the top. Look at Fatality. Apparently he's been going around at least trying to convince other top players that Captain Falcon is good now.

Top players being influenced by personal experience is more valid though, since they actually play at a top level. They can still be wrong, of course.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Well, again, the same can be true at the top. Look at Fatality. Apparently he's been going around at least trying to convince other top players that Captain Falcon is good now.

As far as I'm ware several top-players were already thinking that the Falcon buffs were significant.
The matches Fatality did with the other top-players have only confirmed that expectation.

 

[Minix0]

Honestly, the spiciest opinion here is that Zero Suit Samus is not anywhere near to being Ridley's worst matchup.

She's considered one of, if not his worst matchup.

Fair enough. Well, I've never played a super, super good ZSS, so I can't speak for sure, but in theory she doesn't necessarily crush Ridley. Ridley's biggest problem matchups are ones where he:

1) Gets trapped in long, deadly combos, consistently.

2) Is unable to edgeguard his opponent well

3) Is suffocated by projectiles, his main weakness.

Theoretically, in a match between two players of similar skill, I only see ZSS successfully and consistently fulfilling the first option. Although, ZSS is probably somewhat difficult to edgeguard compared to say, Dr. Mario, her up-b travels little distance so in theory it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Not to mention she doesn't really shut down at range, only up close, and Ridley's got her outranged. Ridley by no means wins, but I have a hard time saying its his worst when she doesn't really do anything worse than the rest of the cast.

MU charts from mid-players are heavily influenced by the expereince they have on Online or locals.
Like, maybe you're a decent ZSS player but the best player in the region plays Zelda, so it's very good possible that the ZSS player thinks the MU is more even than it first looks (it's an awful MU).

Of course this doesn't apply to everyone but some placements in this chart look rather off (like the Zelda placement, I wouldn't say it's even after ven dominated a Ridley player in the losers bracket at Frostbite).

However, they can serve as a good discussion ground since sometimes there are misconceptions about characters that are discovered and hopefully debunked afterwards.
But not sure if posting MU charts from non-top players is something welcomed here.

Well, I stated its a rough list mostly due to the fact that there's 70+ characters in the game, and having 100% knowledge in each one of those match ups is incredibly hard. Some characters may be higher, some may be lower.

As for Zelda, you're right. It's a hard matchup a lot of times. Knight makes approaching very frustrating. I've fought an actually good Zelda that proved this. Her recovery goes quite the distance, so edgeguarding is quite hard as well. The main reason she ended up in even is the fact that I simply don't have a high opinion of her as a character. I have a hard time saying Ridley loses based off of one match however.

All of you are right about this too, I'm not as good as say, MKLeo, Tweek, esam, etc. but I don't get how we're allowed to comment on their tier lists with our opinions, but not allowed to make our own lists. Discussion is valid no matter the level, even if one person's opinion probably isn't a reliable as one of those. There definitely is a cutoff, like people who can't even short hop consistently saying that King K. Rool is top tier, but I'd like to say I'm not that bad lol.

You guys don't have to take the list seriously or treat me like some god or whatever, I just wanted to share my thoughts. I'm probably a little bias, but I think everyone is probably a little bias. Any main of any character is going to think their character is better than non-mains think. In that instance, I think Ridley is better than most people think. By no means top tier, or even necessarily high tier, but a solid mid tier. If I were pessimistic, I'd say Ridley loses basically every matchup against a character with a projectile, but I think people underlook Ridley's strengths.

 

[StrangeKitten]

i know a mod said none top players shouldnt be posting tier list in here in the past. but i also dont know what the cutoff is. sharpy is known but he's not like a top 25 pgr as far as i know.

I mean, I don't know who could offer an Incin matchup chart who is also a top 25 player. Incin isn't really played. Sharpy's probably the best we've got. We used to have Magister, but he hasn't done anything in ages. Even when he was active, I don't know if he was top 25

 

[Lacrimosa]

If you want to hear the opinions from Fatality of a certain character in the Falcon MUs..