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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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    584

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,328
I can't be the only one who thinks Wario at his present is unbearable

A lot has been said about the other toxic top tiers, but I feel like people overlook this character's "heads I win, tails you lose" **** off waft combo

He's just a badly designed character. Maximum survivability, great mobility, absurd damage when he gets a clean hit, great KO potential even before the waft, and arguably the single best move in the game.

He's held back by a neutral that is average at best, but waft is so lopsided and the aforementioned traits make him a pain to deal with
Wario's Waft is not arguably the best move in the game, that's Shulk's Monado Arts. Monado Arts has too much utility, it's just on Shulk who would be a mediocre swordsman without it.

Shulk can break out of combos and take little damage with Monado Shield, kill super early with Monado Smash, buff his recovery with Jump and do high damaging combos with Speed and Buster. Waft is just a very good kill move that can't even be used throughout the match.
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
It seems kind of drastic to say Banjo and Kazooie may not even be mid tier. They may not be outstanding, but they're at the very least decent, and, as far as I know, their moves actually function properly for the most part. At the other end of the spectrum, high tier may be pushing it.

That said, are their any other fighters that come to mind that you don't think are given a fair shake for whatever reason?
I have a few:

  • :ultmetaknight: is such an anomaly. He should be considered a great character given how good everything about him is but he isn't considered to be a good character by a lot of people. He has one of (if not) the best disadvantage state(s), the best recovery in the game, good edgeguarding, a passable combo game, amazing frame data, and a solid juggling game. However, I think he is incredibly hard to play since his combo and juggle games (while on paper are pretty good) are very hard to properly utilize since his up-air and d-air have only 1 active frame and they can be hard to followup on against a lot of characters. While he does have some solid matchups against some good characters (I think he goes even or wins against :ultpeach::ultgnw: and :ultrob:) he also loses hard to others like :ultmario::ultluigi::ultsheik::ultfox::ultyounglink::ultzss:. Not a bad character, but requires a lot of skill to play properly (especially compared to Smash 4) which is why I don't think we've seen too much of him yet in Ultimate.
  • :ultgunner: is a weird one since as a :ultluigi:main, I think I'm kind of biased here (since I think this is one of Luigi's worst matchups) but I do want to give my thoughts on why I think this character isn't all that bad. This character has some noticable flaws that I want to mention first. Their disadvantage state is mediocre, their combo game is lackluster, their frame-data is kind of poor, and their move speed is somewhat slow. However, this character has some very good things going for them too. Their camping, anti-zoning, trapping, and ledgetrapping abilities are all amazing (varies based on the special moveset but it is possible to have tools for all of these available at any time), their neutral is solid, and they have good survivability due to their good recovery moves as well as their heavyweight status. In terms of matchups, this character does solidly against :ultluigi::ultpeach::ultsamus: and :ultsnake: while losing to characters who can abuse their reliance on projectiles and lack of a solid close up game like :ultfalco::ultfox: and :ultpalutena:. IMO this character is at least in the higher end of mid tier and I wouldn't be surprised if we begin to see more of this character at some point given how good this character does against certain relevant characters.
  • :ultdoc: is one that I've personally talked about for a while and I still stand by the fact that he's underrated, largely due to the fact that his non-doctor counterpart is significantly better in almost every way outside of OOS game and raw kill power. His frame data is amazing, his anti-zoning game is good thanks to cape, he is good at racking up damage fast, his kill power is great, his edgeguarding is good, he has the second best OOS option in the game, and he does have some good kill confirms and 50/50s off of down-throw and d-tilt. His main issue is his ability to get in against characters who have range is really bad and his recovery is quite easy to edgeguard for most of the cast. I think his matchup spread is a bit overblown on how bad it is but he does lose hard to a lot of characters with :ultcloud::ultlucina::ultshulk::ultike::ultyoshi::ultbowser::ultpalutena: and :ultsonic: being among his worst ones IMO. However, I do think it's worth mentioning that he does do alright versus other characters who rely a bit too heavily on their zoning to be effective as well as characters who can't exploit his weaknesses as well as he can exploit theirs like :ultlucario::ultfox::ultpiranha::ultmario::ultduckhunt: and :ultrobin: (Mario/Dr. Mario is one of the most even matchups in Ultimate). I also think he might do fine against :ultfalcon: and :ultpichu: as well (I don't really have anything at top level to go off, just my opinion and I'm far from a top level player so maybe I'm wrong here). He also does fine against most of the low tiers and while he is certainly a mediocre character (definitely in the lower end of mid tier), I don't think he's the Bottom 3 character everyone makes him out to be.
 
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Rran

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
145
Waft is just a very good kill move that can't even be used throughout the match.
I think describing Waft as merely "just a very good kill move" is selling it a bit short :p A good number of characters have solid KO options, but Waft is practically a stock-stealer! I believe, more than any other singular move in the game, Wario's Waft can really turn the tide of battle... And it's not just the move, itself, but rather its integration within the context of Wario's kit as a whole, how it can fairly reliably be utilized w/ the proper patience and setup.
 

DougEfresh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
212
Wario's Waft is not arguably the best move in the game, that's Shulk's Monado Arts. Monado Arts has too much utility, it's just on Shulk who would be a mediocre swordsman without it.

Shulk can break out of combos and take little damage with Monado Shield, kill super early with Monado Smash, buff his recovery with Jump and do high damaging combos with Speed and Buster. Waft is just a very good kill move that can't even be used throughout the match.
Being able to break out of multi-hits (and hit-stun in general) with shield art is definitely busted for Shulk, no doubt about that. However, I think the attribute trade offs he gets when any given monado art is active and the cool down times of all of them, makes that mechanic a bit more balanced. It still might be the best move in the entire game, but to your point, Shulk would be pretty average without it given his very slow frame data. As someone else pointed out before, Wario is not without strong and relatively fast options that kill very reliably outside of waft. The way the character can play completely degenerate and, like I mentioned before in my response to PK's comment, just wait for you to mess up time and time again until he can just cheese the hell out of you with waft at 40ish percent is obnoxious at best and aggravating af at worst. It's not really about frequency of use of either mechanics: Shulk's stats are constantly variable and the player has to have good decision making on when best to activate/deactivate his arts based off of interactions happening throughout the match as well as what others they could switch to in order to suit that situation better; Wario, by comparison, has it much easier with a small frame and incredible air speed + acceleration always available to him to just keep camping till he has full waft, stuff people out with his very active hitboxes (even if he lacks range) and always wait for that right moment to destroy someone with a full waft combo in the hands of a very capable player like Tweek or Glutonny. I do agree that it does warrant some design adjustments, I'm really not sure how healthy it is for the meta to keep waft functioning the way it is in its current state tbh.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
199
Waft kill power its fine, the player needs to perform the combo to kill you, what its wrong with waft its that never runs out or charges fairy fast in a 8 timer ruleset.

A good way of nerfing the "degenerate" aspects of waft could be that waft now needs 3 minutes to fully charge naturally on 1v1, but wario now can speed up the timer by eating things with chomp like the opponent or wario motorcycle.

Oh give it a time limit like cloud limit, like full waft has a time limit of 10 second, when the time limit past out full waft becames half waft.

Waft being strong or a kill confirm isnt the problem, its that wario can be played very passive and in turn gain a super good tool and he doesnt get punished for doing so.
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
1,315
Location
Canada
I don't think low % confirms into death is good game design, especially when it's sometimes literally predicated on whether Nair connects or not

It just needs to be less effective at KOing period.
 

Nathan Richardson

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
796
Location
Warren MI.
NNID
Zeratrix
I think a good way to nerf waft is to have it come out immediately on a full charge. This turns it into a time bomb that an opponent just can't hold it forever and then let it loose whenever they want. It also means that an opponent has to decide whether to use waft when it's not at full charge or wait to get it to full charge while also trying to keep the opponent close to take advantage of it.
 

DougEfresh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
212
Waft kill power its fine, the player needs to perform the combo to kill you, what its wrong with waft its that never runs out or charges fairy fast in a 8 timer ruleset.

A good way of nerfing the "degenerate" aspects of waft could be that waft now needs 3 minutes to fully charge naturally on 1v1, but wario now can speed up the timer by eating things with chomp like the opponent or wario motorcycle.

Oh give it a time limit like cloud limit, like full waft has a time limit of 10 second, when the time limit past out full waft becames half waft.

Waft being strong or a kill confirm isnt the problem, its that wario can be played very passive and in turn gain a super good tool and he doesnt get punished for doing so.

I wouldn't mind this kind of change, but if I were able to pick which one to go for, I agree with PK's choice. There are several different ways Wario can confirm into waft, and trying to play a defensive game in order to outcamp and whiff punish him can prove to be an exercise in futility. If it still kills on the earlier side, fine. But at least make it closer to 70-80% than 30-40% that I have to sweat my ass off about losing my stock at any moment due to the number of ways Wario can combo into waft. I think it's the combination of its insane raw kill power and the diversity of moves he can use to follow up with it is really what's problematic about it. Either nerf the kill power outright, or make it harder for him to combo into it so consistently.
 
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Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
I'm not sure Waft having a 10 second limit when it takes so long to charge compared to limit is a good idea. If it has a limit, something like 30 seconds might be better, and I'm definitely against it just going off.

Either way, I advise against hitting it too hard. It's not like Wario has overrun the scene.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,897
Location
Colorado
I have a few:

  • :ultmetaknight: is such an anomaly.
  • While he does have some solid matchups against some good characters (I think he goes even or wins against :ultpeach::ultgnw: and :ultrob:) he also loses hard to others like :ultmario::ultluigi::ultsheik::ultfox::ultyounglink::ultzss:. Not a bad character, but requires a lot of skill to play properly (especially compared to Smash 4) which is why I don't think we've seen too much of him yet in Ultimate.
IMO :ultmetaknight:/:ultyounglink: is even. MK has to approach but he's small with a good dash and can stall in the air so he doesn't have a terrible time doing so. Like you said MK has the best disadvantage in the game and it's very hard for YL to abuse it. MK on the other hand can wall YL hard offstage. Although YL's Dair and bombs do give him good landing options. As with all YL's MUs it's a matter of how hard is it for the opponent to win neutral weighed against how good their advantage is when they do. Frankly YL has the best neutral in the game. I can go into more detail if you want but I doubt anyone cares.
 

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
Frankly YL has the best neutral in the game. I can go into more detail if you want but I doubt anyone cares.
Hey...

I care bro.

But seriously, great neutrals that come to mind are Wolf, Pika, Mario, Joker, Lucina, Snake especially. You think YL tops them in that department?
 

Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
479
SwagGuy99 SwagGuy99 I am a 1332 Gunner main, and I have been focusing on that one moveset at the moment. Most Gunner mains think that his charts are optimistic. Due to moveset and playstyle differences, matchup charts vary considerably depending on who you ask. Viability opinions vary drastically depending on the player, but most Gunner players think that the character is at least in mid tier. I can explain my tier opinions for my moveset in another post even though my thoughts aren't set in stone.

The most popular Gunner movesets don't struggle with combos. Grenades, missiles, and bombs give Gunner access to easy 30-40+ damage combos that last until well after the projectiles kill on their own. Flame pillar can also lead into high damage combos and kill confirms, especially when combined with charge blast. For example, super missile to up throw to up air, does 48.6% base 1v1 damage, and it kills midweights at 70%. The Mii Gunner combo thread has more information and videos. Katakiri's combo video is in this thread, and I have seen stronger combos from that video than I have seen from characters like :ultcloud:,:ultlucario:, and :ultbanjokazooie:.
https://smashboards.com/threads/mii-gunner-combo-thread-work-in-progress.479414/

Gunner's disadvantage is exploitable, but I don't think that it is bad relative to the cast with a good moveset. While Gunner doesn't have the the best options for getting out of combos (our frame 3 reflector hitbox only lasts for 1 frame), the character has a good combination of heavy weight, low fall speed and a small hurtbox. Arm rocket is a good recovery because of its maneuverability and frame data. It starts moving on frame 8, and it has 14 frames of landing lag (This up special literally has less landing lag than all of Snake's aerials). It doesn't have a hitbox, but Gunner can use projectiles to cover the recovery. Gundashing can also be used as a mixup. Gunner's air speed and air acceleration are bad, but gundashing and arm rocket are faster than our initial dash. Bombs can be hit back at Gunner, but they can also be b-reversed and wavebounced. Gunner can also drift behind the bomb and airdodge if the opponent tries to hit Gunner. Reflector and absorbing vortex can also be used to stall in the air, mess up the opponent's timing. Arm rocket is also a surprisingly good landing mixup because of the frame data mentioned above.

I also feel that Gunner's CQC is somewhat underrated. Gunner has a frame 6 grab that has great range and great reward. Jab is slow for a jab at frame 5, but it can force tech chase situations at low percents (charge blast covers every tech option). Ftilt has good range and decent speed at frame 7, and it also forces tech situations at low to mid percents. Dtilt is slow for a dtilt at frame 8, but it is a kill move that is very difficult to punish on shield due to its pushback. Up tilt is a frame 5 kill move a good anti-air. Gunner's CQC would be at least average in my opinion if jab was frame 4. We have faster options than Palutena in CQC, and we can beat her in this area.

Rizen Rizen I am also interested in an explanation.
 
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Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Wario's Waft is not arguably the best move in the game, that's Shulk's Monado Arts. Monado Arts has too much utility, it's just on Shulk who would be a mediocre swordsman without it.

Shulk can break out of combos and take little damage with Monado Shield, kill super early with Monado Smash, buff his recovery with Jump and do high damaging combos with Speed and Buster. Waft is just a very good kill move that can't even be used throughout the match.
The thing is, Shulk still has to play three full stocks (unless you gimp someone but any character can do that) and when you play someone like Glutonny, you play a three stock vs. two stock game in most cases. Gluto can still win even if a waft won't kill for whatever reason but you can see that Wario starts struggling against Roy (Flow is the 2nd best player in France and mains Roy) and he pretty nmuch relies on Waft to kill.

Wario is only top-tier because Waft is so good. He also has some other kill confirms like dTilt -> das attack but that kills much later.
Shulk isn't that reliant on Monado Arts like Wario is on Waft. Would Shulk still be top-tier without them? Probably not, but Wario most definitely wouldn't be.

And no, I don't say that because my char does very good against Wario even with Waft and poorly against Shulk without arts.
I think it's more because Glutonny wins everything here in Europe and Wario is such a big presence over her and Shulk frankly isn't. There is Tru4 but he isn't the best in Germany (Top 10, though) and nowhere close to Glutonny.

Also don't get me wrong, I still think that Monado Arts is one of the best moves but the best move when Waft exists, a move that turns a match most likely into a 2-stock match for you, then I have my doubts. We all saw what Gluto did to Nairo.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,916
I can't be the only one who thinks Wario at his present is unbearable
Sonic is at present turning my head a lot more than Wario (and not just because of WiFi).

This comparison has been drawn before, but Wario bears some resemblance to Mario: a character with low-% kill confirms limited by range.

Mario has several notable advantages over Wario though:

  • If Wario misses Waft, it's gone. If Mario misses his kill confirms, he's probably just built more Rage and is now able to access more of them.
  • Most of Wario's kill confirms with Waft disappear once Waft is fully charged. Mario's kill confirms remain no matter how much you camp him.
  • Mario has overall more range.
  • Mario has FLUDD, Fireball, and Cape. Wario has nothing similar--Bike/Chomp are good but not in the same category of game-changer based on their archetype. These tools mean that Mario wins some matchups like the Pikachu matchup that Wario may slightly lose.
  • Mario has way better OOS options, including f6 grab that leads to confirms.
  • Although Mario takes longer to land from a short hop (a whopping 7 more frames), he can also use two aerials in a single jump in situations where Wario is stuck using n-air or f-air and then choosing a defensive option once on the ground, so Mario overall is better at the short hop game.
Wario has two things going for him. One is weight--I consider this pretty minor. It's easier to combo Wario in part due to the width of his hurtbox, and Mario isn't light himself.

The other is speed. Wario's much faster in the air, sporting both an air speed and air accel advantage. Such a speed lead tends to be the deciding factor when comparing two characters who are otherwise similar, but in this case, Mario's better grounded options means that he doesn't need to be in the air as much as Wario, and since grounded movement options are faster than air movement options anyway, Mario is actually the one who's faster a good deal of the time.

Of course, this analysis glosses over quite a few nuances and details, and I'm not saying that they're the same character at all, but it's worth considering that Mario seems to be a better character than Wario, at the very least.

As for Wario's design, I'll agree that it's a pretty bad experience for everyone involved whenever you're playing for the clock in smash.

Waft is pretty unique among other kill confirms in that it encourages both sides to play this way. In that sense it's very similar to spindash.
 

ARISTOS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
741
Location
The Empire
:ultmetaknight: is such an anomaly. He should be considered a great character given how good everything about him is but he isn't considered to be a good character by a lot of people. He has one of (if not) the best disadvantage state(s),
Metaknight's disadvantage is really bad - while he has Dimensional Cape as a way to warp out of bad situations and can recover from pretty much anything his air speed leaves him combo and juggle food against a lot of the cast. When you're a light, low DPS character, this ends up hurting him a lot in trade off situations.

Similarly, :ultdoc:'s lack of air speed harms his ability to mix characters up on shield, which would make his buttons terrifying, while also giving him one of the worst disadvantage states in the game. It doesn't matter how many good traits the character has when you can lose stocks/games off one low commitment interaction
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,916
:ultmetaknight: is such an anomaly. He should be considered a great character given how good everything about him is but he isn't considered to be a good character by a lot of people. He has one of (if not) the best disadvantage state(s)
I didn't catch this, but in addition to what ARISTOS correctly points out above about MK's airspeed and juggling, Metaknight's recovery being good is completely meaningless since he's one of the worst characters at getting off the ledge. It doesn't matter if you make it back from offstage for free if you're just getting ledgetrapped and put back in the same situation again repeatedly until you lose a stock.

On that note, ledgetrapping is in general more consistent than edgeguarding anyway, so having a good recovery doesn't say much about your disadvantage state.

Think of recovery like grammar. If you have bad grammar, everyone will notice, but no one is going to care if your grammar is top-notch, i.e., that you hyphenated words correctly and placed commas where they should be or you left a dangling modifier somewhere.
Similarly, while having a bad recovery is still noteworthy and can be character-defining (preventing Cloud from being completely broken, for example), there's not much point in having a recovery above average.

This is actually true even for advantage, not just disadvantage. When we theorycraft, we talk about characters being able to go deep offstage because of their recoveries, but usually characters are going deep offstage because a) they're good at snapping back to ledge and getting out of a ledgetrapping situation in the event that something goes wrong and b) their ledgetrapping isn't particularly special. Great examples include ZSS and Pikachu.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,198
Speaking of :ultmetaknight:, the character in relation to his SSB4 appearance is also a bit of an anomaly.

On one hand, the character seems like a complete direct upgrade from his SSB4 appearance (and was seen as that in the early metagame), thanks to receiving a lot of useful buffs that patch some of his most glaring flaws from the previous game, and seemingly brings back traits from Brawl MK (albeit to a far less extreme degree).

His jab now frame 4 (as opposed to frame 7), the vast majority of his multi-hit moves has received adjustments that allows it to better connect, the vast majority of his sword moves in general received bigger hitboxes that increase their reach and cover many blindspots (down tilt is the biggest example), all of his aerials received large landing lag drops (moreso than any other character), and both his Tornado and Drill Rush are more useful overall.

Then there is his punish game. :4samus: was dash attack: the character, and :4falcon: was dash grab (and up air): the character.
:4metaknight: was both dash attack and dash grab: the character, and both moves got nerfed in Ultimate. He relied on those moves a lot in SSB4, not only because his other options were not too great, but also because it let his powerful lattering punish game. His entire metagame revolved around latter combos, and public option on him even reached to the point of potential top tier (prior to 1.1.5) despite possessing so many other problems.


Now despite latter combos being nerfed in Ultimate and his main two moves in Ultimate getting nerfed, he still retains some of his strengths, and there is the plethora of buffs that patches up his biggest weak points in SSB4.
We have seen :ultbowser::ultsamus: get away with not having the single centralizing move to spam anymore, due to having a far more consistent moveset and their weaknesses being patched up.

Why isn't this the case for MK?


From what I can see, it has to do with his natural low damage output not translating very well in Ultimate.
Sheik suffered for this for the longest time (granted that she also got direct damage nerfs and weight nerfs in the transition to Ultimate).
KO power can be finicky without edgeguarding and latter combos as well, as a few of his multi-hits, most notably up smash, still has some issues connecting into eachother.

In a nutshell, Ultimate MK trades a weaker punish game for a stronger neutral game in the transition.

However, there is still lingering questions on my mind on why Ult MK is seen as a strictly inferior character.
A lot of weaknesses people in this thread pointed out about, such as juggling and getting off the ledge, are weaknesses he suffered arguably even harder in SSB4, and he manages to be a relatively successful character in that game.

Any thoughts/ideas why?

Metaknight's disadvantage is really bad - while he has Dimensional Cape as a way to warp out of bad situations and can recover from pretty much anything his air speed leaves him combo and juggle food against a lot of the cast. When you're a light, low DPS character, this ends up hurting him a lot in trade off situations.
Ultimate MK's airspeed isn't actually too bad, being the 45th fastest airspeed in the game, which is about average, but he has the liberty of having multiple jumps and Dimensional Camp to aid him. This airspeed is actually faster relative to the rest of the cast than in SSB4 (his airspeed was 35th out of 58 in SSB4).

Characters like YLink and Pikachu manages to get away with far worse airspeed, being 62nd and 63rd, respectively.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
I don’t think MK’s neutral has gotten any better from 4, if anything it’s gotten worse. He was already really limited in playing neutral in 4, he didn’t smother you in hitboxes or use aerials like other disjointed fighters and he still can’t. Bair and fair aren’t really that safe when compared to other attacks with similar range, deal low damage and aside some Bair one stuff don’t lead into anything. Nair’s safer but suffers from even more range and hitbox issues and leads into even less than his other aerials, if he fades back to play a safer neutral it accomplishes nothing. Lack of usable tilts to take this place (Dtilt is rather nice) and especially not having a jab further compound this issue.

So he’s stuck with dash grabs and dash attacks again. Grabs being universally nerfed make that less viable of an option, especially dash grabs which weren’t that great of an option to begin with (His grabs also aren’t helped by a really bad grab range). Dash attacks require you use them at a certain distance in order to cross up shields, limiting how much he can mix dash attack timings up so he doesn’t get stuck in front of a shield and get blown for trying to start offense.

Ask yourself, when your in the center of the stage against Sheik, how threatening does she feel? Does she have multiple ways to make you want to move back or play around her shield pressure? Does she make you want to do something to prevent her from pressuring you first? Do you feel like she can actually kill you for a mistake from anywhere on stage?

Now put yourself in the same situation against Meta Knight. Does he make you feel anywhere near the same as Sheik? Do you feel like he can actually take a stock from center stage at any time? He’s very lucky he has top class edge guarding he just flat out wouldn’t be able to take stocks in his current iteration with out it/without really good Fsmash call outs. It’s fine if you lack strong stock sealing options if you have some means to play your opponent into the options you do have or have a strong neutral to allows you to play a longer game. Mk doesn’t.
 
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Nemesis561

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
186
Being able to break out of multi-hits (and hit-stun in general) with shield art is definitely busted for Shulk, no doubt about that. However, I think the attribute trade offs he gets when any given monado art is active and the cool down times of all of them, makes that mechanic a bit more balanced. It still might be the best move in the entire game, but to your point, Shulk would be pretty average without it given his very slow frame data. As someone else pointed out before, Wario is not without strong and relatively fast options that kill very reliably outside of waft. The way the character can play completely degenerate and, like I mentioned before in my response to PK's comment, just wait for you to mess up time and time again until he can just cheese the hell out of you with waft at 40ish percent is obnoxious at best and aggravating af at worst. It's not really about frequency of use of either mechanics: Shulk's stats are constantly variable and the player has to have good decision making on when best to activate/deactivate his arts based off of interactions happening throughout the match as well as what others they could switch to in order to suit that situation better; Wario, by comparison, has it much easier with a small frame and incredible air speed + acceleration always available to him to just keep camping till he has full waft, stuff people out with his very active hitboxes (even if he lacks range) and always wait for that right moment to destroy someone with a full waft combo in the hands of a very capable player like Tweek or Glutonny. I do agree that it does warrant some design adjustments, I'm really not sure how healthy it is for the meta to keep waft functioning the way it is in its current state tbh.
Good post but just wanted to say could you break up your writing so its easier on the eyes to read lol.

I agree with you though I do think that waft should be toned down a bit, maybe kill a bit later or come out a tad bit slower
 

DougEfresh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
212
Good post but just wanted to say could you break up your writing so its easier on the eyes to read lol.

I agree with you though I do think that waft should be toned down a bit, maybe kill a bit later or come out a tad bit slower
Fair enough, haha. I'll try to keep that in mind. But yeah, I don't want any move or character nerfed to hell, but I think waft is one of those few moves in the game that's still just absurd in one way or another and should be toned down. Probably making it kill a bit later is fine, although slightly increasing start up frames on waft could give someone a bit more of a chance to get out of the combos into it.
 

ILOVESMASH

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As someone really bad / inexperienced at this game, I had a few questions:

- Is it just me or is neutral significantly more oppressive in this game? I watched Zero's videos on the 2 13 year old prodigies & notice that in addition to using unconventional tactics to surprise their opponents, they both also played very aggressively. From my exp playing online, this also seems to be case, where even sloppily spaced or timed attacks is difficult for the opponent to punish, especially if they are shielding. It seems that (calculated) attacks are noticeably more effective tools that shield and grab.
- Is disadvantage equally bad for everyone? In 4, it was pretty apparent that some character's where clearly harder to capitalize on in disadvantage, but here, it seems that disadvantage screws everyone over equally. Directional Airdodge is so easy to capitalize on due to how much lag it has & teching (both in place & tech-rolling) is atrociously bad, so I just attack as soon as hitstun as end to avoid being in a situation where I need to tech.
- How true is the assertion that neutral across the board tends to be similar, but the way each character plays advantage is radically different?
 

Nah

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As someone really bad / inexperienced at this game, I had a few questions:

- Is it just me or is neutral significantly more oppressive in this game? I watched Zero's videos on the 2 13 year old prodigies & notice that in addition to using unconventional tactics to surprise their opponents, they both also played very aggressively. From my exp playing online, this also seems to be case, where even sloppily spaced or timed attacks is difficult for the opponent to punish, especially if they are shielding. It seems that (calculated) attacks are noticeably more effective tools that shield and grab.
- Is disadvantage equally bad for everyone? In 4, it was pretty apparent that some character's where clearly harder to capitalize on in disadvantage, but here, it seems that disadvantage screws everyone over equally. Directional Airdodge is so easy to capitalize on due to how much lag it has & teching (both in place & tech-rolling) is atrociously bad, so I just attack as soon as hitstun as end to avoid being in a situation where I need to tech.
- How true is the assertion that neutral across the board tends to be similar, but the way each character plays advantage is radically different?
I don't really have an answer for your first and last question other than for the first one that the game encourages button pressing due at least in part to increased safety roster-wide on normals, but for the second, disadvantage is not equally bad for everyone. Maybe the gap has shrunk since the last game, or maybe the number of characters with legitimately good disadvantage states is smaller, but some still have it better than others. ZSS has a better overall disadvantage than Lucina, who has a better one than Robin, for example.
 

NotLiquid

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As someone really bad / inexperienced at this game, I had a few questions:

- Is it just me or is neutral significantly more oppressive in this game? I watched Zero's videos on the 2 13 year old prodigies & notice that in addition to using unconventional tactics to surprise their opponents, they both also played very aggressively. From my exp playing online, this also seems to be case, where even sloppily spaced or timed attacks is difficult for the opponent to punish, especially if they are shielding. It seems that (calculated) attacks are noticeably more effective tools that shield and grab.
- Is disadvantage equally bad for everyone? In 4, it was pretty apparent that some character's where clearly harder to capitalize on in disadvantage, but here, it seems that disadvantage screws everyone over equally. Directional Airdodge is so easy to capitalize on due to how much lag it has & teching (both in place & tech-rolling) is atrociously bad, so I just attack as soon as hitstun as end to avoid being in a situation where I need to tech.
- How true is the assertion that neutral across the board tends to be similar, but the way each character plays advantage is radically different?
Whiff punishing as a concept was heavily nerfed between the two games thanks to the game granting a whole lot of characters moves that are safer to throw out and harder to punish. Most of the better half of the cast has at least one safe move they can default back to as a good neutral poke if we assume perfect spacing; if they're particularly fortuitous then they're also attacks that are KO options at higher percents. A lot of it also comes down to mobility having been buffed among the cast. Things like acting out of dash, improved dash dancing, and standardized jump squats means that compared to Smash 4 you're not spending as much time in a state where you can eat a devastating punish for failing to capitalize on one of your better options (in general the act of jumping alone makes for a good OoS option in a lot of cases which is part of the reason Greninja is so much better than he was in Smash 4 despite completely lacking unique OoS options).

Smash 4 was a game that slowly morphed into being a game where players maximized their kill confirms off of minimal interactions, whereas Ultimate generally prioritizes and rewards good footsies, given that players on average will be throwing out attacks far more often without risking too many hard punishes. Kill confirms exist in Ultimate but they're a lot less prevalent than they were in 4, so in a funny way despite the game rewarding characters with more neutral options and encouraging players to push advantage state more, a lot of the characters considered "great" in Ultimate are not as great as the top of the food chain in Smash 4.

Every character is definitely not born equal in terms of disadvantage. The best example of this would be Game & Watch; his up B allows him to completely ignore shield pressure on-stage, easily escape combos that aren't true, while also having an extremely tough to intercept recovery; arguably the only downside with his disadvantage is the fact that if he's forced to recover from deep while facing the stage, he more or less lacks a good defensive option if the opponent tries to contest him but there's not that many characters that would be able to do so. A character like Mario sports a sort of sub-par off-stage disadvantage, but on-stage he's really good at breaking combos, whereas a character like Inkling abides by the opposite mentality. Directional air dodges are punishable if intercepted sure, but that's treated more as a piece of the puzzle than the whole story. In a lot of cases it's not a matter of whether it's a bad or a good option; it just adds another layer of consideration for both the player and the opponent.

As for the way neutral plays out, that really just depends on the character archetype really. Characters like Snake and Sonic certainly don't play neutral like most of their other high caliber breathren.
 
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NairWizard

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As someone really bad / inexperienced at this game, I had a few questions:

- Is it just me or is neutral significantly more oppressive in this game? I watched Zero's videos on the 2 13 year old prodigies & notice that in addition to using unconventional tactics to surprise their opponents, they both also played very aggressively. From my exp playing online, this also seems to be case, where even sloppily spaced or timed attacks is difficult for the opponent to punish, especially if they are shielding. It seems that (calculated) attacks are noticeably more effective tools that shield and grab.
- How true is the assertion that neutral across the board tends to be similar, but the way each character plays advantage is radically different?
smash 4 is a game of microspacing, where every pixel counts. You walk a lot, perfect pivot, adjust your shield in minute ways to deal with different attacks.

smash ultimate is a game of macro spacing. Everyone dashes back and forth a set distance, and that’s by far the most effective option for moving. Reading your opponent’s movement habits matters more than precisely spacing your moves.

that’s really the thing you’re picking up on here. smash 4 plays more like a traditional fighting game. smash ultimate plays like a platforming hybrid.
 

Rizen

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Hey...

I care bro.

But seriously, great neutrals that come to mind are Wolf, Pika, Mario, Joker, Lucina, Snake especially. You think YL tops them in that department?
Sorry for the late response, I've been busy. I agree all those characters have great neutrals. I also think YL not only has a better neutral but also beats all of them in neutral.

Here's why :ultyounglink:'s neutral is the best in the game:
He has 3 extremely versatile and low commitment projectiles. Only bomb explosions can be absorbed as his boomerang and fire arrows are physical not energy. For the most part YL shouldn't be hit by reflected projectiles because they have little lag. Reflectors mainly keep YL from spamming from long range but don't counter his projectile game. They can be punished if they get predictable by YL's Zair, which combos into DA. If villager pockets his projectiles YL can pull out new ones to spam.
Fire arrows have extremely good frame data; they're the new Falco lasers. With FAs YL can out-camp Snake and match Olimar's pikmin. FAs launch up and therefor put the opponent into a light disadvantage state. They're very spamable. FAs alone are one of the best projectiles in the game.
Boomerang true combos into Fair up close, can be angled and comes back to break YL out of things like rapid jabs. Unlike many projectile characters, YL can hop around throwing projectile up and down. Boomerang is a powerful neutral tool.
Bombs start combos and can be throw in four directions as an item. They get deflected by hitboxes and can be caught with any standard attack so they aren't as good as SSB4 Link's bombs but they still are good for crossups and disadvantage.
With these 3 projectiles, YL can attack anywhere. If Pac Man tries to jump offstage and charge fruit, YL can still spam him. If Pac hides behind a fire hydrant, YL can jump and toss boomerang/bombs down over it because the fall with gravity. The Links have the most versatile projectile spam in the game and YL's is the best. The opponent must approach him.

He has an amazing landing game.
N/F/Bair all have only 6 frames landing lag and Nair's frame 4. YL also has good fall speed to back these up, unlike TL. F/Bair first hits true combo into smashes when landing canceled. Nair and Zair combo into DA. Dair will not auto fast fall and bounces off shields making it a safe poke most of the time. N/Dair are both very good at covering YL's lower body in long lasting hitboxes which makes him very hard to hit for characters without disjoints. This is what sets YL apart from TL. YL can not only hop around tossing projectiles but can switch to low lag aerials when the opponent gets close.

He now also has a f4 jab as a fast gtfo option. Dtilt is a low commitment poke that combos into Uair/spin attack for kills.

Because these reasons he loses to nobody in neutral. There are only a few MUs where the opponent ties him in neutral like :ultolimar::ultfalco::ultmegaman::ultrob::ulttoonlink:. Olimar can deal a lot of damage with pikmin but YL can FA spam him. Falco's laser is faster than FAs and his reflector controls mid range well but YL gets higher rewards from his projectiles and can angle them. MM's pellets stop YL's projectiles but YL can hop and angle his spam down. ROB's a rough MU because he out-boxes YL in CQC, gyro walls mid range and robo beam can snipe YL out of long range. He also has a reflector/smash attack in rotor arms. YL has to play a strict mid range zoning game. TL's bombs are slightly faster than YL's but his arrows are slower. TL can spam from farther away but YL has better mid and close range options.

Everyone else YL beats at least slightly in neutral and that includes characters like pika, wolf and Mario. It should be noted that YL does much better on big stages like PS2 than small triPlats like BF in most MUs.
 
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Lacrimosa

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Zelda MU chart from AceAttorney who's ranked 9th in NY.
There was a problem fetching the tweet

Dunno, there are some things I really don't see, like Pac-Man, Zard, Ivysaur, Ike, Marcina, Wolf and Pikachu.
And in the other direction YL (absolutely horrible), Squirtle, Peach, Fox, Falco, maybe Joker and Diddy.

To me, this is a fairly weird MU chart as I would disagree with a lot of the things here (like, I would swap most characters in even with the chars he put as disadvantageous.
 

ZephyrZ

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Zelda MU chart from AceAttorney who's ranked 9th in NY.
There was a problem fetching the tweet

Dunno, there are some things I really don't see, like Pac-Man, Zard, Ivysaur, Ike, Marcina, Wolf and Pikachu.
And in the other direction YL (absolutely horrible), Squirtle, Peach, Fox, Falco, maybe Joker and Diddy.

To me, this is a fairly weird MU chart as I would disagree with a lot of the things here (like, I would swap most characters in even with the chars he put as disadvantageous.
Personally as a PT main, I know I find Zelda annoying to fight as :ultsquirtle:, but feel pretty comfortable as :ultivysaur:.

For :ultsquirtle:, he likes to approach from the air with fair, but Zelda's disjointed Nair and U-tilt can wall his tiny hitboxes out. Crossing up with Nair isn't that great either thanks to U-tilt's arch. Alternatively Squirtle can play footsies with her, which is the way to go, but he still finds Nayru's Love and Dash Attack obnoxious at that range. Speaking of Nayru's Love it really limits Squirtle's ability to pressure her on the ground, even when he gets in close.

Ivysaur, on the other hand, does not feel as much urgency to get in close against Zelda. I feel like we've had this discussion before, but from a long range Razor Leaf limits Phantom set ups, while Nayru's Love and Farore's Winds limit Razor Leaf spam. If Zelda catches Ivy sleeping she can go in for Up B read (Ven was very good at this in one match I watched), but overall I think Ivysaur does well enough in the long range that he can move towards center stage and try to hold it with his disjoints. Ivy's much safer against Zelda at the midrange then Squirtle is, since he can space around her disjoints with his even larger ones. Zelda's. Zelda also has terrible air mobility, which is exactly what Ivysaur wants in advantage. Not to say Zelda's advantage state isn't strong in this match up either, I just think Ivy's is a bit stronger.

Zard being disadvantage against Zelda is definitely an interesting take. Zard's got some semi-disjointed attacks but he's still not able to pressure her as well as a swordsmen would, and even getting into the midrange against Zelda is a pain for Zard because of that phantom.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

AceAttorney seems to agree with disjoints being a problem for Zelda, but considering that you're question the placement of Ike/Ivy/Lucina I take you don't? I guess Zelda's good initial dash and Phantom can be nifty in swordsmen match ups, but is there something else you see here that we don't? I'm curious as to what your reasoning is.
 

Lacrimosa

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Personally as a PT main, I know I find Zelda annoying to fight as :ultsquirtle:, but feel pretty comfortable as :ultivysaur:.

For :ultsquirtle:, he likes to approach from the air with fair, but Zelda's disjointed Nair and U-tilt can wall his tiny hitboxes out. Crossing up with Nair isn't that great either thanks to U-tilt's arch. Alternatively Squirtle can play footsies with her, which is the way to go, but he still finds Nayru's Love and Dash Attack obnoxious at that range. Speaking of Nayru's Love it really limits Squirtle's ability to pressure her on the ground, even when he gets in close.

Ivysaur, on the other hand, does not feel as much urgency to get in close against Zelda. I feel like we've had this discussion before, but from a long range Razor Leaf limits Phantom set ups, while Nayru's Love and Farore's Winds limit Razor Leaf spam. If Zelda catches Ivy sleeping she can go in for Up B read (Ven was very good at this in one match I watched), but overall I think Ivysaur does well enough in the long range that he can move towards center stage and try to hold it with his disjoints. Ivy's much safer against Zelda at the midrange then Squirtle is, since he can space around her disjoints with his even larger ones. Zelda's. Zelda also has terrible air mobility, which is exactly what Ivysaur wants in advantage. Not to say Zelda's advantage state isn't strong in this match up either, I just think Ivy's is a bit stronger.

Zard being disadvantage against Zelda is definitely an interesting take. Zard's got some semi-disjointed attacks but he's still not able to pressure her as well as a swordsmen would, and even getting into the midrange against Zelda is a pain for Zard because of that phantom.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

AceAttorney seems to agree with disjoints being a problem for Zelda, but considering that you're question the placement of Ike/Ivy/Lucina I take you don't? I guess Zelda's good initial dash and Phantom can be nifty in swordsmen match ups, but is there something else you see here that we don't? I'm curious as to what your reasoning is.
Ike is pretty much budget Chrom. Slower in the air and on the ground with a bit higher kill power which barely matters imo because she's already light. Slightly better recovery in this MU but if Ikes gets send off-stage by a dSmash for example it's very hard for Ike to come back because of the low knockback angle of that move.
But I could be wrong. It's a very simplified view.
I've never played a really good Ike (i only use wi-fi) and there are very few or even zero VODs of Ike vs. Zelda at high/top level.
But against swordies you don't want to jump at all with her, so it's Phantom vs. their disjoints and Zelda can move back of you set Phantom up before her. AceAttorney actually uses this tech very well. That means Lucina and other swordies have to adjust their aerials and jump timings but she can keep them away much better.

I can see Zard btw. He ledgetraps her very hard. I was fighting Poww (Germany ranked PT player) and I did very well against his Ivy and super poorly against his Zard because I couldn'T get off the ledge safely. I think I didn't develop counterplay (wo only played one game on quickplay, oof) but I felt pretty helpless there. Fire breath is super strong here because it can cripple Phantom (it's also an issue with Bowser). Or maybe I was just stupid when fighting him, aside from the obvious difference in skill.

It could also be that I got used to Ivy when it was much better before the nerfs and I just don't respect the Zard (people saying that Zard's low-tier definitely leaves a mark even if you're not really agreeing). Anyway, fighting Ivy feels much better than Zard and it's not because of Wi-Fi Flare Blitz.
But I definitely respect Zard much more after fighting him. He's super fast, has good disjoints and Flamethrower that chips away Phantom's health down before the hitboxes come out.
 

SwagGuy99

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AceAttorney seems to agree with disjoints being a problem for Zelda, but considering that you're question the placement of Ike/Ivy/Lucina I take you don't? I guess Zelda's good initial dash and Phantom can be nifty in swordsmen match ups, but is there something else you see here that we don't? I'm curious as to what your reasoning is.
Charizard's ground movement may be why he thinks Zelda loses.

His run speed is tied for 9th highest in the game, his initial dash speed is the 4th highest in the game, and his traction is fairly average. This gives him some of the best ground movement in the game which combined with his range and the fast startup on moves like jab, up-b, and up-smash, and the range on some other moves like f-tilt and up-smash give him some really good tools to use on the ground against characters he can outrange. Zelda (despite having good range overall for a non-swordie) doesn't have comparable range to some of Charizard's more long ranged moves like f-tilt and up-smash.

I'm not a Zelda main so I can't really say how bad this matchup really is, but I think this is why Charizard isn't as bad as people make him out to be in general, since his speed, OOS game, good range, and fairly good frame data for a super heavyweight can make him hard to fight for both sword characters and close range characters.
 

Lacrimosa

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Charizard's ground movement may be why he thinks Zelda loses.

His run speed is tied for 9th highest in the game, his initial dash speed is the 4th highest in the game, and his traction is fairly average. This gives him some of the best ground movement in the game which combined with his range and the fast startup on moves like jab, up-b, and up-smash, and the range on some other moves like f-tilt and up-smash give him some really good tools to use on the ground against characters he can outrange. Zelda (despite having good range overall for a non-swordie) doesn't have comparable range to some of Charizard's more long ranged moves like f-tilt and up-smash.

I'm not a Zelda main so I can't really say how bad this matchup really is, but I think this is why Charizard isn't as bad as people make him out to be in general, since his speed, OOS game, good range, and fairly good frame data for a super heavyweight can make him hard to fight for both sword characters and close range characters.
Thing is, they don't outrange her downB but as I said, the Zard should have the tools to deal with it. It's not a non-factor but every character that can work around that move while attacking is trouble. Speed alone won't make the MU hard or else :ultfalcon: would be amongst her worst MUs as well but it isn't.
In this case, the initial dash speed is really making a difference since Zard is good at baiting a move from her, Falcon can't really do that.
https://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/DashSpeed
If you look at this, the chars she struggles a lot against are all up here: :ultzss:, :ultroy: (not Chrom but that is another story), :ultsonic:, :ultmewtwo:, :ultgreninja:, :ultcloud:.
And all of them are fast in the air as well

Similar to Falcon but for the air: :ultjigglypuff:. You need to be fast in both but I think good air mobility is much more important against her (see :ultpeach:, :ultpalutena:, :ultrosalina:). It's not everything but it lays the ground why these MUs are significantly harder than others but there are other reasons like Luma and Gravitational Pull in Rosalina's case. .
 

Firox

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Charizard's ground movement may be why he thinks Zelda loses.

His run speed is tied for 9th highest in the game, his initial dash speed is the 4th highest in the game, and his traction is fairly average. This gives him some of the best ground movement in the game which combined with his range and the fast startup on moves like jab, up-b, and up-smash, and the range on some other moves like f-tilt and up-smash give him some really good tools to use on the ground against characters he can outrange. Zelda (despite having good range overall for a non-swordie) doesn't have comparable range to some of Charizard's more long ranged moves like f-tilt and up-smash.

I'm not a Zelda main so I can't really say how bad this matchup really is, but I think this is why Charizard isn't as bad as people make him out to be in general, since his speed, OOS game, good range, and fairly good frame data for a super heavyweight can make him hard to fight for both sword characters and close range characters.
I honestly think Charizard is seriously slept on by a lot of PT players. As you said, he's surprisingly fast for a heavy weight (both in ground movement and frame data). Combined with his range and kill power, I would consider him the scariest of the three right now.
 

ZephyrZ

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You guys don't need to tell me how good Zard's strengths are, I've always had a warm opinion of him compared to most players.

Its just that strong projectiles really limit how much Charizard can abuse his fantastic ground game, and his aerial approach options aren't that great. Fair is super laggy, Nair is sort of safe but difficult to space, and Bair doesn't come out until Frame 14 and has a weird hitbox vs grounded opponents. I suppose if Zard is able to keep Zelda from having the space she needs to set up phantom then that's a different story. I might also be underutilizing Flamethrower in this match up, so I might have to experiment with how that move interacts with phantom.

It's hard to find any good Zard vs Zelda footage though. Most games I see have PT players spend very little time as Charizard, but it's hard to tell if that's because of match up reasons or if it's just because a lot of these matches are from early metagame where everyone thought Charizard sucked.
 

DougEfresh

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Unfortunately, I don't have much of value to add as far as Zelda MUs go (though I will say that I agree with AceAttorney's placements of both of my characters going even against her). With that being said, I'd like to revive the :ultbanjokazooie: discussion some of us were having briefly last week and focus specifically on one aspect: Disadvantage (Warning: This is a bit of a long read).

This is an area that Banjo does struggle in at times (due to his heavy weight and slow air speed, like mentioned before), particularly when it comes to being juggled and to a lesser extent, edgeguarded. But is it really as bleak as it seems when Banjo gets put in a bad spot and he's trying to escape disadvantage? While there are certain areas of his disadvantage that are just a bit lacking regardless (like OOS and a fast gtfo option to get out of combos and/or juggles), he has some mix ups that can prove invaluable for him to land and a bit later on, I'm going to try explaining why always going for the juggle against Banjo can be risky even for the characters who are quite capable in this area.

When Banjo is launched upward and put into a potential juggle situation, he's got a handful of options depending on how much damage he has between his up b, multiple jumps, and using rear egg to stall/cover his landing/protect himself on the way down. Even down air can be an effective landing mix up that can be a good call out on aggressive juggling that's slightly miscalculated. One thing you probably see with Banjo players is their proclivity towards going high, a la Snake style, and dropping a grenade or 2 on his way down. This can be a good means to protect yourself if you're able to mix up when you use AD, your other two jumps and when to use a second grenade that can come raining down and make your opponent think twice before hastily punishing your landing. But going high too often will just give your opponent more time to juggle you or punish your landings in many cases, and so does spawning grenades out of disadvantage too liberally to cover yourself since this stalls you in the air for a bit longer.

I think the main issue when it comes to Banjo's disadvantage is that players too often try to act out of it as if they're Snake when Banjo doesn't have the same liberty to use his projectiles to cover himself and be respected in this way, while many others seem to view it as being that Banjo should be able to do this when he just can't (this comes back to my statement of comparing chars to top tiers holding back open-mindedness to allow for their potential meta growth, but I digress). But this isn't really all that bad, more traditional means of AD's, double jumps and fast falls can work well, especially when combined with selective but smart uses of his shock spring pad and rear eggs. In off-stage situations, his double jumps can also be used well to hang back from ledge a bit to bait the opponent to overcommitting to the edgeguard, and if he stays in the right range, he can often punish that overextension with a wonderwing provided he still has some available for him to use. If not, he does have an AD that's quite good and this is where using rear egg and z grabbing it to stall in the air and even throw at your opponent is relatively more effective. In short, his disadvantage state is more manageable to deal with as long as you're comfortable with the mix ups he has to get out of it.

Now let's talk about what can happen if the opponent misses their edgeguard/juggle attempt. I'll start with the latter first: if the player gets greedy and uses too many resources to make a juggle play happen only to miss, banjo potentially has the opportunity now to land before they do, and one of banjo's greatest strengths is his ability to punish landings largely due to his great ground mobility. Wonderwing is the key option here, but if that's run out and especially if the opponent used their up b in their juggle attempt and get the kill, he can really use any of his smash attacks to punish and possibly kill depending on damage and positioning of the bad landing. He's also got up air to anti-air and start a brief juggle of his own (nair is a good anti-air as well), and having a rear egg out can be a good tool to have out to control some stage space if they haven't used too many of their resources and can land more easily.

I already touched on a scenario that can happen in the event of a miscalculated edgeguard attempt against Banjo, so I won't go too much deeper on that. I just want to say that people can claim that Banjo is very exploitable in disadvantage (and granted, the support for this is largely based on the indisputable fact that his air speed is poor), but what's often not accounted for is the consequences of making errors when you try pushing advantage too far against him and Banjo is then allowed chances to reverse the momentum and now you are near or on ledge against him (and that's a pretty bad place to be against him given his ledge trapping prowess). His own edgeguarding is nothing to sneeze at either, between breegull eggs gimping linear recoveries, wonderwing, fair and bair. This is why it's important to respect Banjo enough to not mash buttons mindlessly in his face, and unless your main has a combination of mobility and disjoints to consistently counter play his recovery and landing mix ups with safe landing options to avoid reversal situations if you miss the play you're hoping to make, the character you use will need to play the patient, long game in order to consistently outplay Banjo to win due to his adeptness at punishing liberal and/or miscalculated hyper-aggression and potentially regaining momentum for himself, then playing a very good keep away game when he needs or wants to.
 
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StoicPhantom

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The biggest issue with Charizard vs Zelda is that Charizard almost always comes out at kill percent or in disadvantage. Zelda is very good at punishing the heavy archetype with power that matches theirs. If this MU was from the word go then things like Up-Smash might be more relevant, but as things stand, all Zelda needs to do is be patient and bide her time until Charizard commits. There's really no reason for Zelda to be within Up-Smash, Bair, and Up-B's range.

But even setting that aside nearly everything Charizard has is either outclassed by Zelda or isn't a range she really plays in. Bair really isn't an issue when Phantom outranges it and neither is his ground speed. Zelda is either close enough that Bair isn't optimal or far out of it's range. There's no reason for her to be caught in it's range, unless she is in disadvantage. Should she need in close, Phantom can cover her approach and she can shield if Charizard tries to Bair and watch as he's hit by Phantom.

Zelda is very poor on shield. Outside of Phantom, F-Tilt, and spaced D-Tilt, she doesn't really have any good shield pokes. Grab is also really slow and not something that can be used to punish shields. So it's not really optimal for her to be playing at that range in the first place and I don't see Charizard's OoS being relevant. Setup a Phantom and see if you can bait an Up-B OoS. If not, Fsmash will beat out almost anything Charizard has in his OoS range, other than maybe Fair which is not safe on shield.

Zelda struggles most with being ledge trapped and juggled. Things that Charizard isn't terrible in but isn't particularly good at either. Slow airspeed makes it difficult for him to really take advantage of Zelda in the air, so it is possible for her to mitigate any damage there. Zelda has enough ledge tricks to make it somewhat difficult to ledge trap her.

Charizard doesn't have much in the way of landing options and Zelda's aerials will be an instant kill. It's difficult to not hit Charizard with Zelda's huge Up-air and LKs make airdodge reads fatal. Phantom can also power through Flare Blitz and Din's Fire can prevent him stalling with his jumps. That makes offstage just as tricky.


I think people are actually overfocusing on Charizard's strengths, not underrating them. Maybe against a typical top tier, but not Zelda who plays radically different. There's a huge advantage/disadvantage mismatch here. Zelda doesn't need to play in Charizard's advantageous range and she hard punishes a heavy's disadvantage. Phantom can outrange everything Charizard has and it's dangerous for him to be in the air. Add on Charizard generally being at kill percent and you have a huge problem. Both characters can be high risk high reward, but Zelda doesn't need to commit and Charizard does. A mistake in that regard will be fatal for Charizard.


So I would have to disagree with this being a difficult MU for Zelda. How well Charizard does largely depends on how well the preceding Pokemon do. If Charizard can come out at mid percents, with Zelda at kill percent then yeah things are going to be difficult for her. But anything else puts Charizard firmly in disadvantage.
 

ZephyrZ

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Zelda struggles most with being ledge trapped and juggled. Things that Charizard isn't terrible in but isn't particularly good at either. Slow airspeed makes it difficult for him to really take advantage of Zelda in the air, so it is possible for her to mitigate any damage there. Zelda has enough ledge tricks to make it somewhat difficult to ledge trap her.
Charizard's airspeed isn't actually all that slow, its his air acceleration that struggles. And even if it was, that's still not how Zard goes about juggling. He uses his ground mobility to position himself to punish landings, or he gets underneath them to Up Smash. Zelda's landing options are kind of poor, so Zard can still do this effectively.

His ledge trapping is actually very strong after his most recent buffs with his F-tilt and F-throw both being very strong kill moves now, as well as his Up Smash OoS being relevant here. Zelda's ledgetrapping is still better in comparison though.

Aside from that I typically agree with the rest of your post. Zard only really does well against Zelda if the PT player already gas the advantage.
 

StoicPhantom

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Charizard's airspeed isn't actually all that slow, its his air acceleration that struggles. And even if it was, that's still not how Zard goes about juggling. He uses his ground mobility to position himself to punish landings, or he gets underneath them to Up Smash. Zelda's landing options are kind of poor, so Zard can still do this effectively.
Yeah I worded that stupid and meant in terms of being able to stop Zelda escaping with an Up-B to the ledge or teleport cancel or something. As in he's not fast enough to quickly juggle her in the air.

I wasn't sure on the ledge trapping though, so thanks for clarifying.
 

Diddy Kong

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All this talk about Charizard Vs Zelda, but it's more weird how Diddy Vs Zelda is seen as even. I think Diddy definitely wins against Zelda. At least +0.5.
 

Lacrimosa

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All this talk about Charizard Vs Zelda, but it's more weird how Diddy Vs Zelda is seen as even. I think Diddy definitely wins against Zelda. At least +0.5.
I'm curious about that as well.
One thing that comes to mind when I see Dakpo vs ven (we luckily have VODs of that match-up) is tha Phantom and Banana play as the Phantom blocks the banana and it can even remove the item with its windbox (sometimes the banana just flies away). That's one of Diddy's most useful pressure tools removed from the equation and Diddy's Monkey Flip also struggles against that move.
Still, Diddy is fast and has a really good neutral game and he's able to just not use Banana and is still doing well. She probably still loses slightly but she also has to keep Diddy on his toes and is able to do so, Diddy can't really avoid Phantom like ZSS does.
 

SwagGuy99

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If we are still talking about Zelda matchups, I will say that I agree with :ultbowser:/:ultzelda: being even. Zelda can die incredibly early and Bowser can outrange and outspeed her, but on the other hand, Zelda is actually pretty good at killing Bowser and she is very good at abusing his poor options on the ledge and his poor disadvantage. I don't really have a lot to say here, it's just a very even matchup.

:ultluigi:/:ultzelda: is a weird one and while I would also say it's even and not Advantage for Zelda, if I was forced to say who I thought did better in the MU overall it would probably be Zelda slightly. Zelda's disadvantage is really bad against Luigi, she's fairly easy to combo at lower percents being a tall lightweight with overall average attributes, Luigi has the superior frame data, and he has Luigi Cyclone to get out of disadvantage in some scenarios. However, Zelda's neutral-b and Phantom make it difficult to approach sometimes (neutral-b also reflects fireballs), she can make getting off the ledge a chore, and Luigi's disadvantage is really only slightly better than Zelda's in this matchup. I don't disagree that Zelda can do well here, but this chart overstates how well Zelda does.
 
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Lacrimosa

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:ultluigi:/:ultzelda: is a weird one and while I would also say it's even and not Advantage for Zelda, if I was forced to say who I thought did better in the MU overall it would probably be Zelda slightly. Zelda's disadvantage is really bad against Luigi, she's fairly easy to combo at lower percents being a tall lightweight with overall average attributes, Luigi has the superior frame data, and he has Luigi Cyclone to get out of disadvantage in some scenarios. However, Zelda's neutral-b and Phantom make it difficult to approach sometimes (neutral-b also reflects fireballs), she can make getting off the ledge a chore, and Luigi's disadvantage is really only slightly better than Zelda's in this matchup. I don't disagree that Zelda can do well here, but this chart overstates how well Zelda does.
One thing to note is that ven has beaten Elegant at Kongo Saga in a 3-2 set. That was pre-patch as well. Sadly, they've met in Losers so the set wasn't recorded.
Not sure how well-versed these two players are in the respective MU but if that's something to go by then the MU has gone from even to advantageous for Zelda.

(And yeah, it's only one set, so there isn't much to go by)
 
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