Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Arthur97]

I didn't care for the change to Ike's up aerial either (though Meta Knight also has an arching overhead slash with some differences). Though, Ike may suffer from the issues I mentioned with heavies is that to make them more viable, they generally have to get faster and such. The success of that may vary. Ike may still end up a mid tier, but they may look at his earlier success and say he needs to be even less like a heavy. I think Bowser may have also had this to some degree even if he is still very much a heavy (and I'll take an actual run over whatever that was from Melee and Brawl).

 

[meleebrawler]

I didn't care for the change to Ike's up aerial either (though Meta Knight also has an arching overhead slash with some differences). Though, Ike may suffer from the issues I mentioned with heavies is that to make them more viable, they generally have to get faster and such. The success of that may vary. Ike may still end up a mid tier, but they may look at his earlier success and say he needs to be even less like a heavy. I think Bowser may have also had this to some degree even if he is still very much a heavy (and I'll take an actual run over whatever that was from Melee and Brawl).

To be fair, it's not like Ike is actually a slowpoke or super tanky in his game of origin either.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

To be fair, it's not like Ike is actually a slowpoke or super tanky in his game of origin either.

Depends which one. PoR he was pretty darn fast, RD he was actually lacking in a bit of speed and how he plays back in SSB4 was pretty accurate. Both games he was "tanky for an infantry unit" which overall means slightly above average defence.

If you wanna go heavy into "he should play like how he was in his games" he should be quite strong, reasonably fast, reasonably tanky, and shoot shockwaves/create orbs of energy with his sword swings. And Aether should heal him.

Going back more into SSB related territory, do wish he had his Brawl jab back. That thing was the best jab in the whole game with +7/11 Frame advantage depending on the opponent's status; only Falco's jab was able to claim it was competition. Gimme the Brawl Jab combined with SSB4 Fair and slap them onto this Ike. Let him actually be a terror, a heavyweight with good range and some frightening fast options.

 

[Arthur97]

There is always the case for accuracy as well, yes. Though, sometimes liberties are fine like Nosforatu on the tactician class, or most if not all of Ness and Lucas' special moves. Then you have Lucina who doesn't even have her signature idle stance.

Then there is also a need for weaknesses. Like, most FE protagonists are probably going to end up being pretty strong and fast (well, except maybe Roy). The Robins are almost certainly not going to be that slow or probably be using bronze swords, but it was a compromise. A smaller case being that Luigi should be able to wall jump. It's an interesting topic to see how this give and take works for non-echoes/clones/Ganondorf. Should uniqueness override the original showing (which can in turn affect their other appearances)? Generally, I'd say try to be accurate to the characters when building a fighter, but some compromises are okay.

So, was Ike sped up to be more accurate, or was that a coincidence? Well, I don't know. I don't think any of us can know, so maybe it isn't a good case for the de-heavying of heavies.

They still didn't have to change that up air.

 

[PK Gaming]

Depends which one. PoR he was pretty darn fast, RD he was actually lacking in a bit of speed and how he plays back in SSB4 was pretty accurate. Both games he was "tanky for an infantry unit" which overall means slightly above average defence.

Not quite. RD Ike is like 2 points away from doubling everything because of his absurd base Speed stat. The fact that they cratered his speed growth is a non-issue when very few characters start out with that much Speed, gets a ton of levels up and the BEXP guaranteed stat level up system effectively makes it a non-issue.

Ike's speed in Brawl was untenable but it's somewhat acceptable in Smash 4 and Ultimate.

 

[PK Gaming]

This isn't exactly a fresh take. Core-A Gaming made a video on this very subject called "The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap" which I think is an awesome watch if you're interested in this topic. Beyond that, I also think nothing can really make beginners compete with experienced veterans. Any attempt to make a game like that is either going to fail or not be worth playing, and so, it's better to make a game that balances execution and lab time requirements with a fun, healthy experience. I see Melee as a game that went too far in one direction, and while the game is fun to play and watch, it's also incredibly hard to get into and has literally caused long-term damage to its players' hands.



Where Ultimate is concerned I think asking why someone can't find their character in a cast of 80 is sort of a disingenuous question. Ultimate is a relatively balanced game. It is also the most homogenous Smash title ever released. Characters with unique playstyles have been flattened down to fit a few existing archetypes. 5 of those 80 characters are variations on Marth. Two are variants of Mario.

I could never find a character I wanted to invest a lot of time into until Brawl came out and ZSS with it. Brawl ZSS is a relatively unique character who does a lot of things other characters don't and has such an unusual game plan that it took players years to figure out what it even was. It's fairly uncontroversial to say ZSS is a top tier character in Brawl these days, but when she was released no one really knew what to do with her because she was so strange. In Smash 4 and especially in Ultimate, ZSS is speedy rushdown character with good disadvantage state number eleventeen. There are now half a dozen characters that play if not exactly like her, then similarly enough. ZSS is a function now. Playing her over Pikachu, Pichu, Mii Brawler, Captain Falcon, or whatever else is a choice you make for the narcissism of minor differences, balance notwithstanding.

Most characters with unique playstyles have seen similar changes or redesigns to make them fit existing molds and archetypes because it makes the game easier to balance. To that end, it was a success, and Ultimate is a good game, so I can't be too mad about it.

I don't at all think they deliberately went out of their way to make characters similar to each other. Characters feeling similar to each other is a consequence of making things like jump squats universal and increasing the overall game speed to make universal combo routes a thing. And as far as i'm concerned it's demonstrably a good thing because character balance significantly suffered because of arbitrary (and often idiotic) differences between characters.

Like yeah it was great if you were lucky enough to main ZSS in Brawl or whatever, but if you were a Ness main it was basically "sucks to suck I guess." And idk, I feel like you're offbase about the whole "ZSS doesn't really stand out from a bunch of rush in combo types" because literally none of those characters have a frame 4, **** Off-Combo Ender/Breaker/Starter finisher.

 

[Arthur97]

Not quite. RD Ike is like 2 points away from doubling everything because of his absurd base Speed stat. The fact that they cratered his speed growth is a non-issue when very few characters start out with that much Speed, gets a ton of levels up and the BEXP guaranteed stat level up system effectively makes it a non-issue.

Ike's speed in Brawl was untenable but it's somewhat acceptable in Smash 4 and Ultimate.

They don't seem to care too much about actual states if the Robins are any indication.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Archetypes can be an interesting way to add perspective to character discussions, but they can also be a trap. It gets too easy to generalize a group of characters sometimes when they're in similar archetypes and overlook differences in their gameplans.

for instance feels way different from other rushdown characters to me. His movement speed is actually pretty average with only his aerial acceleration standing out. This is made up for by Thunderjolt and his small body, the former of which he can use to condition opponents and cover his approaches, while the latter of which he can use to find blind spots in his opponent's threat bubbles and OoS games. The only character who I think comes close to feeling like Pikachu (aside from Pichu, obviously) is due to similar movement stats and small body, but the lack of thunder jolt already does a ton by forcing Squirt to play a more bait-and-punish game.

I don't know why Pikachu is always the go-to character when people compare rushdown characters, if anything I see him as a demonstration of how different characters of a similar archetype can be.

 

[NairWizard]

The word rushdown is completely misused in pretty much all contexts I’ve seen it.

What does rushdown mean?

Maybe you think that rushdown means that the opponent isn’t camping. But what does camping mean to you? Not attacking first?

In that case, Ike is a proactive spacing character. He is going to swing before you swing, because he has to. Is Ike rushdown?

Maybe camping to you means reacting to your opponent. Light reacts to half of the options he’s whiff punishing. Is Fox then not rushdown?

Maybe you think rushdown means applying pressure to your opponent and forcing them to pick an option. Samus and Zelda do this with their charge moves constantly. Are Samus and Zelda rushdown?

Or maybe you think rushdown means keeping close to your opponent constantly. Mario benefits from being on top of the opponent, and so does Game and Watch. Are they rushdown?

Better yet, Pikachu spends half the Lucina matchup whiff punishing her jumps with Quick Attack from a distance away. Is Pikachu not rushdown?

Ultimately it seems that rushdown refers to some mix of being fast, applying pressure constantly, and staying on top of your opponent, and everyone who uses the term imagines these properties to different degrees when using it (as evidenced by several people in this thread calling ZSS rushdown).

Being fast just means that you have the tools to keep getting to your ideal space. For some characters this may mean getting up close, but that doesn’t mean that they have to play in a rushdown style. You can be up close and patient. You can even be patient waiting for a chance to get up close.

There are players who prefer overshooting in neutral and making aggressive plays repeatedly, like Light and ESAM. But there’s no reason that the characters themselves have to play this way. Passive Fox is hilariously effective; same with Pikachu.

 

[SwagGuy99]

They don't seem to care too much about actual states if the Robins are any indication.

If they cared about stats, then Mario would be able to crawl, Luigi would be able to wall jump and be much faster than he currently is, Mewtwo would be much heavier, and Olimar would be microscopically small. I agree, they don't care as much about in-game stats as they do balance.

Archetypes can be an interesting way to add perspective to character discussions, but they can also be a trap. It gets too easy to generalize a group of characters sometimes when they're in similar archetypes and overlook differences in their gameplans.

for instance feels way different from other rushdown characters to me. His movement speed is actually pretty average with only his aerial acceleration standing out. This is made up for by Thunderjolt and his small body, the former of which he can use to condition opponents and cover his approaches, while the latter of which he can use to find blind spots in his opponent's threat bubbles and OoS games. The only character who I think comes close to feeling like Pikachu (aside from Pichu, obviously) is due to similar movement stats and small body, but the lack of thunder jolt already does a ton by forcing Squirt to play a more bait-and-punish game.

I don't know why Pikachu is always the go-to character when people compare rushdown characters, if anything I see him as a demonstration of how different characters of a similar archetype can be.

I actually want to say feels a bit similar to that as well. Obviously there are differences such as not being able to pancake under other moves very much (since he doesn't have Pika b-air) and his worse ground movement, but I can draw some comparisons to what you say about Pikachu feeling different from the other rushdown characters. His movement speed is average with his air speed (not air acceleration like Pika) being the only real stand out, fireball can serve a similar role to t-jolt in some scenarios, and he can use his air speed, quick frame-data, and fireballs to abuse any gaps the opponents have in their defense.

I feel like there is a comparison to be made here and maybe the fact that their gameplans are similar is part of the reason as to why can contest so well.

And I think that there is a bit of a distinction of the characters in the rushdown archetype in Ultimate, like you said. There are the ones that use their fast movement speed to get in and deal a lot of damage (but oftentimes have a tendency to die off of one hit) like (t-jolts being self-damaging make a more bait-and-punish/rushdown playstyle less effective IMO) and the ones that are slower, but can use more of a bait and punish oriented game plan to play in a similar manner to the other rushdown characters like .

and feel like they fall somewhere in there as well, but they also can fit into other archetypes other than rushdown ( as a grappler, as a glass cannon, etc.).

Just kind of goes to show that even in one archetype, there can be a lot of different playstyles.

 

[Arthur97]

Honestly, I think Captain Falcon may be who I think of when I think of rushdown, but maybe others don't because he isn't that great in this game. I think Roy may also come to mind not because he's the rushdown fighter, but because he's something of an oddity in sword fighters.

If they cared about stats, then Mario would be able to crawl, Luigi would be able to wall jump and be much faster than he currently is, Mewtwo would be much heavier, and Olimar would be microscopically small. I agree, they don't care as much about in-game stats as they do balance.

Which does bring up the balance of representing them faithfully while maintaining the game. Though, this can come down to aspects outside of gameplay too.

 

[DougEfresh]

With all this talk of certain character archetypes and the variance of playstyles and gameplans within them, I think now is as good a time as any to talk about something I've been thinking about for a while regarding a character that I think fits this mold:

First off, I want to just say that Banjo & Kazooie has to be the most tragic case of overwhelming joy in their initial reception to subsequent and ultimate dismissal and rejection by the broader fanbase and competitive community alike; all in the name of being "underwhelming", a "lame ass zoner" (both of these are things I've explicitly heard/read about), among other things and I think it's a crying shame considering those of us who requested him waited 20+ years for that day to come.

And are these assessments all that accurate? I think there's a lot more to this character than meets the eye. Because he has two projectiles, people do often call Banjo a zoner, but let's look at the facts: Grenade eggs can only be spawned one at a time and it takes 10 frames and its whole animation pose for them to be spawned on the stage with it only having a fuse roughly 2.4s long, with a stray blue egg requiring 13f to fire them individually at the opponent for a poking tool in neutral. Does this sound like a consistent and reliable means of "zoning", at least in the traditional sense of using projectiles to wall the other player out and force them to approach? I really don't think it is, although it can work somewhat more effectively in this way in match ups with very little to nothing in the way of projectiles and zoning that are able to counteract these tools of banjo's. What grenade eggs do best is stuffing out aerial approaches if used well, in addition to leading into his 2-3 hit strings and combos to rack up damage rather quickly and being a crucial tool for his ledge trapping. Blue eggs also function well for that latter purpose too, discouraging opponents from stalling on ledge for too long or else they're knocked off and the ledge trap is reset. They're also great for the pokes in neutral to stuff jumps so that getting in the range to approach and hit the opponent with his aerials is made easier. His 2-framing ability is also very good with proper timing using Wonderwing, down smash, dtilt, blue eggs and even fsmash.

Against characters that do zone us out, his two projectiles are much more effective for an anti-zoning effect that allows his approaches to be easier. It's kind of strange how he actually does want to be relatively close to you so he can more reliably and consistently rack up damage with grenade combos (into fair and bair most commonly, but also wonderwing as a kill confirm at later percents), but also wants to keep you away just far enough to prevent you from pushing buttons mindlessly and being overly aggressive throughout the match/set. WW of course, really brings out the best of Banjo's "anti-zoning" gameplan, but it really should be used conservatively to maintain its element of surprise and work as intended (a burst option that is fantastic for calling out complacency in neutral, whether zoning or otherwise). In the majority of MUs, it's also a free horizontal recovery back to ledge. FTR, I also hate when commentators of sets with Banjo players say "but he didn't use all his wonderwings before losing his stock!" I get the intention behind this, but I prefer to instead think about how many wonderwings I used well throughout my stocks. I try to use at least 3 of my 5 uses of it in each stock, and possibly use the other 2 for damage and call outs if I get the stock lead (or recovery if I need it), but even if I die before that gets to happen, it's much better to form a habit of using them effectively and safely as you can, so you remain unpredictable and don't give your opponent free punishes on a silver platter.

His primary weakness is his very slow air speed, which requires him to be in close range to hit you with his hard hitting fair or space you out with bair/nair, makes it difficult to escape combos and corner pressure, and forces you to be more creative for your edge traps and off-stage play, but i strongly believe these are things that can all be improved upon with time and dedication from banjo mains. He is also lacking in shield pressure (outside of grenade egg, fair, and wonderwing). His run speed is also among the best in the game, making his ability to punish landings very good (dash attack, wonderwing, dtilt and his smash attacks all being common for this purpose). I think he has many subtle and nuanced mix ups with grenade egg that can be used with various timings that slightly differ to keep the opponent on their toes, and optimizing dragdown set ups with nair and bair are another pivotal thing that needs to happen to realize a brighter future for this character.

To conclude this lengthy post about Banjo, my feeling is that this is not only another example of American pro players' opinions demonizing a character into obscurity, but the infamous laggy quickplay Banjos we've all had the misfortune of facing at one point or another has completely soured and distorted our impression of the character because of scrubs who will just camp with their projectiles and never approach. It also doesn't help that people have tried comparing him to other top tiers in some way, like being a "discount snake" or his nair being a "poor man's Palu nair", etc, when he has several distinctions to make him stand out. Like I said before, this is all truly unfortunate because I really think this character has what it takes to do well competitively with the proper gameplan and playstyle with further optimizations in the future (call me biased because I secondary the character for all I care....I'm also still labbing out the more relevant MUs using Banjo, so I'll save that topic/discussion for another post). Anyway, thanks for indulging me throughout this post if any of you took the time to read all of this; I may be inclined to post some more detailed thoughts on specific things about Banjo in the near future, but this is something I've been thinking on for a while now.

 

[Thinkaman]

*faces mirror*

"Balance! Balance! Balance!"

Hey man, I'm on vacation. By which I mean, Animal Crossing.

I hesitate to talk too much about ZSS in particular because she is historically one of the characters I understand (and play as) the least, though I had a lot of experience against her in 4.

Speaking more broadly, well, here are my thoughts in a random, rapid-fire order:

• You don't strictly have to homogonize away a character's identity to balance or depolarize them, it's just that most ways you could gravitate towards it.
• I think most armchair balance discussions are waaay too quick to suggest homogonizing "fixes". Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
• But a small percentage imo overcorrect and complains about removal of unique things that should have been removed.
• On the negative end, this stuff is obvious: Yoshi not being able to jump out of shield. Bowser having a jumpsquat that lasts a year. Shields not covering full bodies. Aerials with longer AC windows than endlag. All of that stuff is definitely unique and definitely makes characters feel different and also definitely shouldn't be in the game. People tend to agree on these things.
• But on the positive end, you get some people with rose-colored glasses arguing to keep dumb things that shouldn't have been in the game. (This is almost always some "Spike" personality player that got emotionally attached to something dubious their usually-high-tier character had.)
• My litnus test is "Does doing this over and over make me feel smug? Specifically smug?" If so, it's probably not great for the game.

No, Brawl Olimar should not have existed; it's not watering him down or depriving humanity of some exotic treasure to give him sane grabs and an actual recovery. No, Brawl ICs should not have existed, nor any other chaingrab. Brawl Falco was smugness manifest into physical form. Brawl Snake u-tilt was an abomination, Gliding was a failed experiment, ect.

Smash 4 had its obvious stuff too. Rage finishers (including on ZSS) were clearly dubious, and there were plenty of nicknamed throw-uair kill confirms that were too generous. Corrin Pin probably should never have existed as it did, just as they toned down Counter Surge.

.

I actually agree; Ike is one of the few characters I think was over-flattened. I miss his patched Smash 4 fair and yeah, his old uair. (Ultimate Ike nair feels like the one-dimensional super-confirms that got removed from 4.)

I feel similarly about Ganon smashes--sorry internet, the sword is lame, old u-smash was the best. I know, I'm no fun.

Who else... I miss aspects of Brawl Lucas that I felt were tighter, though that's not really a question of becoming more generic. Also lukewarm on Ultimate Lucas's throws.

I have a soft spot for unique SHAC aerials that were removed along the way for whatever reason, but I think that's getting away from the broader question of homogonization.


To bring it back, I think that Roy is the best case study. Roy in 4/Ulti is objectively more unique from Marth than Melee. However, to most people, he feels more similar, because he is a functional, well-designed character now. If you just try to force a Marth playstyle onto Roy, it will work better in 4/Ultimate simply because Roy is a far better, properly-functioning character more equipped to work outside his narrow niche.

This is probably true across much of the cast--many characters can play much better than they did with a Generically Good Playstyle because they are fully functionally characters now. This doesn't mean they are less unique by any other measure.

 

[The_Bookworm]

A minor online tournament in the name of the Buk Invitational just finished. It is an 8 man invitational tournament featuring 8 top online players.

1st: Maister
2nd: BestNess
3rd: ESAM
4th: Goblin
5th: LeoN
5th: MkLeo
7th: Hungrybox
7th: Plup (DQ'ed)

Since Plup wasn't able to make it, I guess this is technically a 7 man tournament.
MkLeo didn't actually win any sets this tournament, losing to LeoN 3-1 and to ESAM 3-1.

To bring it back, I think that Roy is the best case study. Roy in 4/Ulti is objectively more unique from Marth than Melee. However, to most people, he feels more similar, because he is a functional, well-designed character now. If you just try to force a Marth playstyle onto Roy, it will work better in 4/Ultimate simply because Roy is a far better, properly-functioning character more equipped to work outside his narrow niche.

This is probably true across much of the cast--many characters can play much better than they did with a Generically Good Playstyle because they are fully functionally characters now. This doesn't mean they are less unique by any other measure.

If it is true that some people felt that he feels more similar to Marth in SSB4/Ult, it is strange, considering that Roy plays completely different from Marth (rushdown in-your-face instead of a spacing playstyle) and that his moveset is now a semi-clone of Marth instead of a full-on clone of Marth like in Melee.

 

[Nobie]

With all this talk of certain character archetypes and the variance of playstyles and gameplans within them, I think now is as good a time as any to talk about something I've been thinking about for a while regarding a character that I think fits this mold:

First off, I want to just say that Banjo & Kazooie has to be the most tragic case of overwhelming joy in their initial reception to subsequent and ultimate dismissal and rejection by the broader fanbase and competitive community alike; all in the name of being "underwhelming", a "lame ass zoner" (both of these are things I've explicitly heard/read about), among other things and I think it's a crying shame considering those of us who requested him waited 20+ years for that day to come.

And are these assessments all that accurate? I think there's a lot more to this character than meets the eye. Because he has two projectiles, people do often call Banjo a zoner, but let's look at the facts: Grenade eggs can only be spawned one at a time and it takes 10 frames and its whole animation pose for them to be spawned on the stage with it only having a fuse roughly 2.4s long, with a stray blue egg requiring 13f to fire them individually at the opponent for a poking tool in neutral. Does this sound like a consistent and reliable means of "zoning", at least in the traditional sense of using projectiles to wall the other player out and force them to approach? I really don't think it is, although it can work somewhat more effectively in this way in match ups with very little to nothing in the way of projectiles and zoning that are able to counteract these tools of banjo's. What grenade eggs do best is stuffing out aerial approaches if used well, in addition to leading into his 2-3 hit strings and combos to rack up damage rather quickly and being a crucial tool for his ledge trapping. Blue eggs also function well for that latter purpose too, discouraging opponents from stalling on ledge for too long or else they're knocked off and the ledge trap is reset. They're also great for the pokes in neutral to stuff jumps so that getting in the range to approach and hit the opponent with his aerials is made easier. His 2-framing ability is also very good with proper timing using Wonderwing, down smash, dtilt, blue eggs and even fsmash.

Against characters that do zone us out, his two projectiles are much more effective for an anti-zoning effect that allows his approaches to be easier. It's kind of strange how he actually does want to be relatively close to you so he can more reliably and consistently rack up damage with grenade combos (into fair and bair most commonly, but also wonderwing as a kill confirm at later percents), but also wants to keep you away just far enough to prevent you from pushing buttons mindlessly and being overly aggressive throughout the match/set. WW of course, really brings out the best of Banjo's "anti-zoning" gameplan, but it really should be used conservatively to maintain its element of surprise and work as intended (a burst option that is fantastic for calling out complacency in neutral, whether zoning or otherwise). In the majority of MUs, it's also a free horizontal recovery back to ledge. FTR, I also hate when commentators of sets with Banjo players say "but he didn't use all his wonderwings before losing his stock!" I get the intention behind this, but I prefer to instead think about how many wonderwings I used well throughout my stocks. I try to use at least 3 of my 5 uses of it in each stock, and possibly use the other 2 for damage and call outs if I get the stock lead (or recovery if I need it), but even if I die before that gets to happen, it's much better to form a habit of using them effectively and safely as you can, so you remain unpredictable and don't give your opponent free punishes on a silver platter.

His primary weakness is his very slow air speed, which requires him to be in close range to hit you with his hard hitting fair or space you out with bair/nair, makes it difficult to escape combos and corner pressure, and forces you to be more creative for your edge traps and off-stage play, but i strongly believe these are things that can all be improved upon with time and dedication from banjo mains. He is also lacking in shield pressure (outside of grenade egg, fair, and wonderwing). His run speed is also among the best in the game, making his ability to punish landings very good (dash attack, wonderwing, dtilt and his smash attacks all being common for this purpose). I think he has many subtle and nuanced mix ups with grenade egg that can be used with various timings that slightly differ to keep the opponent on their toes, and optimizing dragdown set ups with nair and bair are another pivotal thing that needs to happen to realize a brighter future for this character.

To conclude this lengthy post about Banjo, my feeling is that this is not only another example of American pro players' opinions demonizing a character into obscurity, but the infamous laggy quickplay Banjos we've all had the misfortune of facing at one point or another has completely soured and distorted our impression of the character because of scrubs who will just camp with their projectiles and never approach. It also doesn't help that people have tried comparing him to other top tiers in some way, like being a "discount snake" or his nair being a "poor man's Palu nair", etc, when he has several distinctions to make him stand out. Like I said before, this is all truly unfortunate because I really think this character has what it takes to do well competitively with the proper gameplan and playstyle with further optimizations in the future (call me biased because I secondary the character for all I care....I'm also still labbing out the more relevant MUs using Banjo, so I'll save that topic/discussion for another post). Anyway, thanks for indulging me throughout this post if any of you took the time to read all of this; I may be inclined to post some more detailed thoughts on specific things about Banjo in the near future, but this is something I've been thinking on for a while now.

I still feel that Banjo is a really good all-around character to learn this game with, between the decent normals, projectiles, multiple jumps, and Wondering. It surprises me that players see him as a zoner because his kit is capable of so much more. He's not Duck Hunt or Mega Man or even Samus by any stretch.

Does it just come down to egg grenades being a tricky thing to contend with?

 

[Thinkaman]

If it is true that some people felt that he feels more similar to Marth in SSB4/Ult, it is strange, considering that Roy plays completely different from Marth (rushdown in-your-face instead of a spacing playstyle) and that his moveset is now a semi-clone of Marth instead of a full-on clone of Marth like in Melee

Right, but every playstyle distinction you can think of gets overshadowed by "functional vs. non-functional."

Imbalanced or one-dimensional designs cause gameplay elements to feel "more distinct" in the same way low tier characters force players to be "more creative." It's only true for definitions of those terms that cease to be useful.

 

[Arthur97]

With all this talk of certain character archetypes and the variance of playstyles and gameplans within them, I think now is as good a time as any to talk about something I've been thinking about for a while regarding a character that I think fits this mold:

First off, I want to just say that Banjo & Kazooie has to be the most tragic case of overwhelming joy in their initial reception to subsequent and ultimate dismissal and rejection by the broader fanbase and competitive community alike; all in the name of being "underwhelming", a "lame ass zoner" (both of these are things I've explicitly heard/read about), among other things and I think it's a crying shame considering those of us who requested him waited 20+ years for that day to come.

And are these assessments all that accurate? I think there's a lot more to this character than meets the eye. Because he has two projectiles, people do often call Banjo a zoner, but let's look at the facts: Grenade eggs can only be spawned one at a time and it takes 10 frames and its whole animation pose for them to be spawned on the stage with it only having a fuse roughly 2.4s long, with a stray blue egg requiring 13f to fire them individually at the opponent for a poking tool in neutral. Does this sound like a consistent and reliable means of "zoning", at least in the traditional sense of using projectiles to wall the other player out and force them to approach? I really don't think it is, although it can work somewhat more effectively in this way in match ups with very little to nothing in the way of projectiles and zoning that are able to counteract these tools of banjo's. What grenade eggs do best is stuffing out aerial approaches if used well, in addition to leading into his 2-3 hit strings and combos to rack up damage rather quickly and being a crucial tool for his ledge trapping. Blue eggs also function well for that latter purpose too, discouraging opponents from stalling on ledge for too long or else they're knocked off and the ledge trap is reset. They're also great for the pokes in neutral to stuff jumps so that getting in the range to approach and hit the opponent with his aerials is made easier. His 2-framing ability is also very good with proper timing using Wonderwing, down smash, dtilt, blue eggs and even fsmash.

Against characters that do zone us out, his two projectiles are much more effective for an anti-zoning effect that allows his approaches to be easier. It's kind of strange how he actually does want to be relatively close to you so he can more reliably and consistently rack up damage with grenade combos (into fair and bair most commonly, but also wonderwing as a kill confirm at later percents), but also wants to keep you away just far enough to prevent you from pushing buttons mindlessly and being overly aggressive throughout the match/set. WW of course, really brings out the best of Banjo's "anti-zoning" gameplan, but it really should be used conservatively to maintain its element of surprise and work as intended (a burst option that is fantastic for calling out complacency in neutral, whether zoning or otherwise). In the majority of MUs, it's also a free horizontal recovery back to ledge. FTR, I also hate when commentators of sets with Banjo players say "but he didn't use all his wonderwings before losing his stock!" I get the intention behind this, but I prefer to instead think about how many wonderwings I used well throughout my stocks. I try to use at least 3 of my 5 uses of it in each stock, and possibly use the other 2 for damage and call outs if I get the stock lead (or recovery if I need it), but even if I die before that gets to happen, it's much better to form a habit of using them effectively and safely as you can, so you remain unpredictable and don't give your opponent free punishes on a silver platter.

His primary weakness is his very slow air speed, which requires him to be in close range to hit you with his hard hitting fair or space you out with bair/nair, makes it difficult to escape combos and corner pressure, and forces you to be more creative for your edge traps and off-stage play, but i strongly believe these are things that can all be improved upon with time and dedication from banjo mains. He is also lacking in shield pressure (outside of grenade egg, fair, and wonderwing). His run speed is also among the best in the game, making his ability to punish landings very good (dash attack, wonderwing, dtilt and his smash attacks all being common for this purpose). I think he has many subtle and nuanced mix ups with grenade egg that can be used with various timings that slightly differ to keep the opponent on their toes, and optimizing dragdown set ups with nair and bair are another pivotal thing that needs to happen to realize a brighter future for this character.

To conclude this lengthy post about Banjo, my feeling is that this is not only another example of American pro players' opinions demonizing a character into obscurity, but the infamous laggy quickplay Banjos we've all had the misfortune of facing at one point or another has completely soured and distorted our impression of the character because of scrubs who will just camp with their projectiles and never approach. It also doesn't help that people have tried comparing him to other top tiers in some way, like being a "discount snake" or his nair being a "poor man's Palu nair", etc, when he has several distinctions to make him stand out. Like I said before, this is all truly unfortunate because I really think this character has what it takes to do well competitively with the proper gameplan and playstyle with further optimizations in the future (call me biased because I secondary the character for all I care....I'm also still labbing out the more relevant MUs using Banjo, so I'll save that topic/discussion for another post). Anyway, thanks for indulging me throughout this post if any of you took the time to read all of this; I may be inclined to post some more detailed thoughts on specific things about Banjo in the near future, but this is something I've been thinking on for a while now.

I raise you Ridley.

Have even more casual players dismissed them? I know I can't seem to do much with them, but I'm me. I do think they kind of suffer from mediocrity and perhaps the label of zoner whether accurate or not as you said. To be fair, outside of Joker, most of the DLC seems to be kind of average to below average though.

 

[DougEfresh]

I still feel that Banjo is a really good all-around character to learn this game with, between the decent normals, projectiles, multiple jumps, and Wondering. It surprises me that players see him as a zoner because his kit is capable of so much more. He's not Duck Hunt or Mega Man or even Samus by any stretch.

Does it just come down to egg grenades being a tricky thing to contend with?

Yea I agree, he's not really busted in any way (even with wonderwing), but solid in several areas that matter. I'm not really sure why he seems to be widely considered a zoner for the same reasons you listed, but I have seen that label myself a number of times. I'm leaning towards that stigma and mis-labeling of Banjo being an overgeneralization caused by the fanbase at large just because you see the wifi warriors try to use him in that way by abusing lag and spamming grenades and eggs till the cows come home. I think he's more intricate to really learn well than most think, but still very fundamentals based, too (and yes, learning to be unpredictable with your uses of grenade egg is a banjo-specific fundamental skill and likely the biggest part of what to focus on for optimizing him imo since it's so central to his gameplan). I like to think of him as a heavier Mario with some disjoints and two projectiles in a way because of that focus, albeit Banjo doesn't have nearly the air speed or insane combo game that Mario does. I still really believe that there's more to be explored with him, but maybe time will prove me wrong.

I raise you Ridley.

Have even more casual players dismissed them? I know I can't seem to do much with them, but I'm me. I do think they kind of suffer from mediocrity and perhaps the label of zoner whether accurate or not as you said. To be fair, outside of Joker, most of the DLC seems to be kind of average to below average though.

Honestly, you've got a good point about Ridley. Both him and Banjo have seemingly gotten awful treatment by a bulk of the fanbase since their release. And I think you bring up a good point as well not only about Joker and how the rest of the DLC looks by comparison, but just how we've gotten accustomed to and perhaps even spoiled by all the flashy gimmicks and mechanics that many characters have brought with them in the more recent years of the smash bros series' lifetime. In fact, a large portion of Banjo & Kazooie's appeal to me is the fact that they're more simple compared to several characters in the roster (and especially the DLC). Having a solid feeling character all around that has reasonably good frame data, range, kill power and projectiles that offers the flexibility and creativity of many different playstyles is sometimes just what you need amidst a chock-full of characters with gimmicks that largely dictate their gameplan and playstyle. Comparisons to high and top tiers only stunt his potential meta growth too, because it assumes from the start that he should be similar to say, Snake or Duck Hunt, or any other number of ways you can find similarities between him and other fighters (and if or because he is not that analogous to any of these categories of characters, people view him as automatically worse than a good chunk of the cast). He may need just a few buffs on some of his kit, but overall, I definitely think his perception of mediocrity is largely because few, if any, players actually play him correctly and maybe that "correct" playstyle just hasn't been identified and optimized yet. Only time will tell, this game is still quite young.

 

[Arthur97]

Yea I agree, he's not really busted in any way (even with wonderwing), but solid in several areas that matter. I'm not really sure why he seems to be widely considered a zoner for the same reasons you listed, but I have seen that label myself a number of times. I'm leaning towards that stigma and mis-labeling of Banjo being an overgeneralization caused by the fanbase at large just because you see the wifi warriors try to use him in that way by abusing lag and spamming grenades and eggs till the cows come home. I think he's more intricate to really learn well than most think, but still very fundamentals based, too (and yes, learning to be unpredictable with your uses of grenade egg is a banjo-specific fundamental skill and likely the biggest part of what to focus on for optimizing him imo since it's so central to his gameplan). I like to think of him as a heavier Mario with some disjoints and two projectiles in a way because of that focus, albeit Banjo doesn't have nearly the air speed or insane combo game that Mario does. I still really believe that there's more to be explored with him, but maybe time will prove me wrong.



Honestly, you've got a good point about Ridley. Both him and Banjo have seemingly gotten awful treatment by a bulk of the fanbase since their release. And I think you bring up a good point as well not only about Joker and how the rest of the DLC looks by comparison, but just how we've gotten accustomed to and perhaps even spoiled by all the flashy gimmicks and mechanics that many characters have brought with them in the more recent years of the smash bros series' lifetime. In fact, a large portion of Banjo & Kazooie's appeal to me is the fact that they're more simple compared to several characters in the roster (and especially the DLC). Having a solid feeling character all around that has reasonably good frame data, range, kill power and projectiles that offers the flexibility and creativity of many different playstyles is sometimes just what you need amidst a chock-full of characters with gimmicks that largely dictate their gameplan and playstyle. Comparisons to high and top tiers only stunt his potential meta growth too, because it assumes from the start that he should be similar to say, Snake or Duck Hunt, or any other number of ways you can find similarities between him and other fighters (and if or because he is not that analogous to any of these categories of characters, people view him as automatically worse than a good chunk of the cast). He may need just a few buffs on some of his kit, but overall, I definitely think his perception of mediocrity is largely because few, if any, players actually play him correctly and maybe that "correct" playstyle just hasn't been identified and optimized yet. Only time will tell, this game is still quite young.

I do seem to struggle to kill with him, and that is probably their most glaring weakness to me. Though, I've seen CPUs do some somewhat crazy stuff with the grenade and, uh, Kazooie rifle whose name escapes me (which I had not previously seen as all that useful). Granted, those were CPUs and I don't know how vialbe that stuff might be. I do personally like that they just feel like they belong. No massive gimmicks, just a nice moveset. I think the same may be said of Plant and the Byleths (though, should probably be expected with the Plant likely being late content).

As for Ridley, I can understand why he may not see as much competitive use. He's big and light for his size which isn't the best combination. However, it isn't necessarily a recipe for disaster as Rosalina and Mewtwo seemed to get away with it in 4. Perhaps he suffers from seemingly having heavy characteristics without being a super heavy.

 

[DougEfresh]

I do seem to struggle to kill with him, and that is probably their most glaring weakness to me. Though, I've seen CPUs do some somewhat crazy stuff with the grenade and, uh, Kazooie rifle whose name escapes me (which I had not previously seen as all that useful). Granted, those were CPUs and I don't know how vialbe that stuff might be. I do personally like that they just feel like they belong. No massive gimmicks, just a nice moveset. I think the same may be said of Plant and the Byleths (though, should probably be expected with the Plant likely being late content).

As for Ridley, I can understand why he may not see as much competitive use. He's big and light for his size which isn't the best combination. However, it isn't necessarily a recipe for disaster as Rosalina and Mewtwo seemed to get away with it in 4. Perhaps he suffers from seemingly having heavy characteristics without being a super heavy.

He is somewhat conditioning and read-based when it comes to killing, but he's got plenty of solid options for taking stocks: A f9 up smash that serves as a great anti-air and, especially with rage, can kill on the earlier side; fair for edgeguards and jump reads, bair is a slightly weaker kill move in terms of raw power, but is also great for edgeguarding to take stocks, f13 dsmash for 2-frames and roll/spot-dodge reads and of course wonderwing. His ledge trapping is great though, and usually where he'll most reliably get his kills, so if you're strong in that area, you shouldn't have much trouble. Forward smash, when spaced, is actually rather safe too and can kill dumb early (this is actually one of his best anti-airs because of the arcing motion Banjo slams Kazooie down on the ground with). Breegull blaster combos and confirms are important too (though I've yet to master them fully myself), with breegull blaster into up tilt being a solid mix up and kill confirm.

One of the things I'm actually testing right now with them is with their up air: it has 2 hitboxes that normally has low knockback but can juggle opponents for a bit in the air. However, with good microspacing and timing, you can land up air 1 and true combo wonderwing or forward smash (at least) from it. Even with good DI, I was able to kill Megaman at 75% near ledge with uair1-->wonderwing (and he's only 4 units lighter than Banjo, weighing in at 102). Sometimes the spacing is just off, and it's no longer a true confirm (AD in beats it, but IIRC, no other defensive options or any kind of DI will avoid it). Anyway, the circumstances to land it may end up being too specific and precise to make it practical in actual matches, but I think it has good potential as a mix up at least. Still far from done with my testing, and there are also quirky properties to some of his other moves that may end up being fruitful for added mix ups as well.

 

[Thinkaman]

I actually have pretty divergent takes for both, that I thought were vaguely concensus:

I thought Banjo was a solid character with an unusually wide hand of good cards, that would take a lot of effort/practice to maximize. I played 3 Banjo mains at Genesis, all of whom impressed me and confirmed my attitudes towards the character.

Meanwhile, I always thought poorly of Ridley, only to begrudgingly give him some credit every time I'd watch Zackray or similar use the character. There's just no denying that disjoints are never out of style. (and are a dangerous combination with extra double jumps) Still, he's an awkward character with dismal disadvantage--a character who falls apart when not in control, but without the weight advantage that gives most heavies with the same problem more attempts-at-bat.

 

[meleebrawler]

I actually have pretty divergent takes for both, that I thought were vaguely concensus:

I thought Banjo was a solid character with an unusually wide hand of good cards, that would take a lot of effort/practice to maximize. I played 3 Banjo mains at Genesis, all of whom impressed me and confirmed my attitudes towards the character.

Meanwhile, I always thought poorly of Ridley, only to begrudgingly give him some credit every time I'd watch Zackray or similar use the character. There's just no denying that disjoints are never out of style. (and are a dangerous combination with extra double jumps) Still, he's an awkward character with dismal disadvantage--a character who falls apart when not in control, but without the weight advantage that gives most heavies with the same problem more attempts-at-bat.

Maybe in terms of being comboed and juggled, but his recovery is probably the all-around best of any superheavy, being both relatively flexible AND scary to challenge. It may be hard for him to find an opening when he's on the back-foot, but few are as consistent when it comes to completely turning those scenarios on their heads when he does pull it off.

 

[DougEfresh]

I actually have pretty divergent takes for both, that I thought were vaguely concensus:

I thought Banjo was a solid character with an unusually wide hand of good cards, that would take a lot of effort/practice to maximize. I played 3 Banjo mains at Genesis, all of whom impressed me and confirmed my attitudes towards the character.

Meanwhile, I always thought poorly of Ridley, only to begrudgingly give him some credit every time I'd watch Zackray or similar use the character. There's just no denying that disjoints are never out of style. (and are a dangerous combination with extra double jumps) Still, he's an awkward character with dismal disadvantage--a character who falls apart when not in control, but without the weight advantage that gives most heavies with the same problem more attempts-at-bat.

You're not wrong to say that Banjo has a less than stellar disadvantage state, although I wonder how much of that can be mitigated with some playstyle adjustments. This is exactly why I don't think calling him a "zoner" archetype character is fitting. Surely, many characters who are zoners tend to struggle with disadvantage and CQC (and I still concede that Banjo's lack of get-off-me options to avoid getting combo'd is quite bad, so landing is difficult sometimes), but between his disjoints in ftilt and dtilt and other normals, he has pretty good boxing tools (that are relatively safe) to get in when he needs to. I think Banjo & Kazooie are much more of a hybrid brawler/zoner archetype, and which one that more heavily gravitates toward is MU dependent, but more than doable (with effort, like you said). They simply don't have the ability to effectively zone you out all throughout the match; that'll only lead to you getting downloaded and getting bodied because the way he's forced to use them (only one grenade egg at a time, stray blue eggs taking 13f to fire) is telegraphed a bit. I think it might be much better to temporarily set up a defensive wall, just to give yourself some space while you take a few seconds to watch your opponent and see what conditioning you can do against them; then go in with a bit more calculated aggression afterwards. Banjo is complex but very fundamentals-based, which I think is another aspect that I'm drawn to about the character.

EDIT: Just to clarify my position, I'm not trying to make a case that Banjo is some hidden top tier, but I think with greater diversity to his game plans and playstyles that leave room for further optimization, it's a realistic possibility that he could move up to lower high tier (especially with just a few buffs to some crucial areas, like increased grab range and maybe a slightly longer bury on his dthrow).

 

[Arthur97]

And, of course, off stage is probably not where you want to be against Ridley given his nair and fair (maybe also bair). Depending on where you are, even Plasma Breath can thoroughly ruin your stock. If only his advantage were great enough to overlook the disadvantage like R.O.B. Though, R.O.B. has gyro shenanigans which is something Ridley just couldn't manage. I don't know, maybe they should make him heavier, but I'm not sure if that's the angle.

 

[meleebrawler]

And, of course, off stage is probably not where you want to be against Ridley given his nair and fair (maybe also bair). Depending on where you are, even Plasma Breath can thoroughly ruin your stock. If only his advantage were great enough to overlook the disadvantage like R.O.B. Though, R.O.B. has gyro shenanigans which is something Ridley just couldn't manage. I don't know, maybe they should make him heavier, but I'm not sure if that's the angle.

Give him even a tiny airspeed buff and he would be able to easily carry people to the side blast zones off a dthrow-fair chain.

As it is, he is similar to Banjo in having to adopt a wide variety of playstyles to adapt to matchups, the main difference being that he also needs to adapt on the fly to stay unpredictable and goad mistakes that he's good at capitalizing on. Camping with strong projectiles is his biggest weakness in neutral, but then why do you think he always loses to Samus in the Metroid games? That said, Wing Blitz is like a discount, unlimited version of Wonderwing for calling out complacent projectiles usage.

 

[Heracr055]

Late but I'm glad to see some Banjo discussion. I'm going to touch on what has always and will always convince me that Banjo is at least high tier.
I think something that is quite overlooked when analyzing Banjo (since people mostly prefer to discuss his projectiles and offensive prowess) is his very unique traits. This character has the same weight as Snake iirc, is rather small in stature, and is highly mobile on the ground. This is a combination that you don't really see on many other characters, if any, and is frankly insane. To top it off Banjo has a very versatile recovery with multiple air jumps, Spring Pad (which he can act out of), Egg Grenade (which he can b-reverse to cover below him & mix up his landing), and of course Wonderwing. This combination of heavy weight and versatile recovery means Banjo will be living a long time when played correctly, all the while chipping in small damage that builds up really quick while you aren't really able to breach his zone, not to mention that he can easily breach your zone with his fast run speed and projectile cover.
Anyways, Banjo is a very adaptable character whose qualities allow him to play & changeup between a variety of styles, and I do think thar players who can recognize & exploit these advantages will find a very valuable character to invest in.
Just taking about these traits makes me want to play some Banjo again.

 

[DougEfresh]

Late but I'm glad to see some Banjo discussion. I'm going to touch on what has always and will always convince me that Banjo is at least high tier.
I think something that is quite overlooked when analyzing Banjo (since people mostly prefer to discuss his projectiles and offensive prowess) is his very unique traits. This character has the same weight as Snake iirc, is rather small in stature, and is highly mobile on the ground. This is a combination that you don't really see on many other characters, if any, and is frankly insane. To top it off Banjo has a very versatile recovery with multiple air jumps, Spring Pad (which he can act out of), Egg Grenade (which he can b-reverse to cover below him & mix up his landing), and of course Wonderwing. This combination of heavy weight and versatile recovery means Banjo will be living a long time when played correctly, all the while chipping in small damage that builds up really quick while you aren't really able to breach his zone, not to mention that he can easily breach your zone with his fast run speed and projectile cover.
Anyways, Banjo is a very adaptable character whose qualities allow him to play & changeup between a variety of styles, and I do think thar players who can recognize & exploit these advantages will find a very valuable character to invest in.
Just taking about these traits makes me want to play some Banjo again.

Yes, exactly! I'm glad someone else is also optimistic about Banjo and that they have the strengths to do well when the player is committed to practicing all the shifts in game plans; for most other high and top tiers, they tend to have one core game plan and/or playstyle and this is usually quite potent against most of the cast, but once it gets figured out, I think it can be difficult to mix things up to a significant degree. This is not the case with Banjo & Kazooie, because like you said, they're very adaptable. I think "rushdown" type characters who tend to be more aggressive may be problematic MUs, but I don't want to make any definitive conclusions about that just yet. His great run speed makes his ability to catch landings and whiff punish very good, too. There's a lot to explore with the character that's really quite fascinating and unique, I just don't think people want to put in the work or don't go deeper than the surface of what they appear to be as far as character archetype/gameplan/playstyle is concerned.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nice analysis on ZSS' evolution in terms of her archtype and playstyle. I like how ZSS has been high/top tier in pretty much every single Smash game she has showed up in. The character is simply fundamentally very solid. Even in PM she is seen as a very solid character (SSF2 ZSS cries in the corner).

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However, I want to talk about a character that I feel got the opposite treatment going into Ultimate: .
Ike feels very... bland and made very homologous in comparison to everyone else.

felt like a proper "heavy" sword character, which is the intention of his character design (in Smash anyways). Packing both power and range with his moves. His frame data is overall very lacking, especially in the air, but on the ground he has access to a few quick options. There is, of course, his jab, a tool that allows him to help out compensate for his slow frame data and cement himself as a heavy sword character. He might've end up as a mere mid tier, but he felt unique. That is an overall thing I like about Brawl, a lot of the case felt unique from eachother, and characters that cloned in Melee are either decloned or are not in the game.
feels like the middle ground between Brawl and Ultimate Ike: made less of a "heavy" sword character but still have many of the "heavy" traits the character has. Instead of jab, which is still a solid tool albeit not as ridiculous, it is now relegated to forward air. He is faster all-around in the ground and in terms of frame data, but not quite "fast". He is also a, low-key, grappler, with considerable reward from grabbing the opponent. He is, again, a mere mid tier, but he still feels distinct from everyone else.
now with Ultimate Ike, he is built to be noticeably less of a tank-power sword character (at least in comparison to Brawl and SSB4 Ike), and more like the other FE cast (particularly with Marthcina and Corrin). Forward air got nerfed pretty badly. Jab is less safe. Power of some of his moves like up tilt and forward air is nerfed. What peeves me the most is that they would change his up air, which is an already unique move in itself, to be similar to all the other FE characters (until Byleth came out with his own unique up air, but that only adds salt to the wound). His playstyle is all about throwing out fast neutral airs and then comboing into it. He is not similar enough to be considered "another Marth", but is tethering in the edge towards that now. While this is probably his best iteration and got a lot of hype in the beginning, things are looking like that he is mid tier once again in the current metagame.

Ryo actually initially didn't main Ike at first during the beginning duration of the game because he didn't quite like how Ike plays in Ultimate, despite him saying that at the peak of Ike's popularity in the metagame.

What I am meaning to say is that I when looking back at it, I am a little upset that they would change Ike the way they did, instead of building up on what they already established with Brawl or even SSB4 Ike. Then again, I play plenty of SSB4 Ike myself.

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Here is something off-topic:
It took us 9 months, but we finally got stock icons of . All that is left is AC Cloud and Female Byleth.

Damn, if we only could've had Ike with his Brawl Jab, and Smash 4 Forward Air. That would be a heck of a character to play with.

 

[williamsga555]

This character has the same weight as Snake iirc, is rather small in stature, and is highly mobile on the ground. This is a combination that you don't really see on many other characters, if any, and is frankly insane

His attributes are indeed a great selling point, I think. The only other clear comparison in terms of great hurtbox-weight ratio is Wario (and maybe Bowser Jr.) off the top of my head.
Wario, of course, is also blessed with good ground movement and top-class air mobility as well, but I digress.

 

[DougEfresh]

His attributes are indeed a great selling point, I think. The only other clear comparison in terms of great hurtbox-weight ratio is Wario (and maybe Bowser Jr.) off the top of my head.
Wario, of course, is also blessed with good ground movement and top-class air mobility as well, but I digress.

I would certainly welcome a moderate air speed buff to Banjo (to make it more towards average than some of the worst in the game right now, however unrealistic it is to actually happen), but if I could only pick one of ground or air speed to be strong, I'm glad it's his ground speed. Being grounded fundamentally is better than in the air (above your opponent), and ground speed is always faster than air speed, anyway. It's definitely his main way of disengaging and spacing around opponent's approaches to get punishes. Three jumps and some solid disjoints come in handy to help somewhat offset the big air speed weakness too, of course.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The Quarantined Series Major #1 is going on right now. Here are the notable upsets/sets as of right now (there is a lot of them).

Winner's
Snormanda 3-0 Regi Shikimi
Mekos 3-2 Charliedaking
Spiro 3-2 Pelca
JohnY 3-1 Riddles
JohnY 3-1 Tarik
Br1 AV 3-1 Seagull Joe
Brl AV 3-2 Jw
Capitancito 3-0 Goblin
Capitancito 3-2 Jayy
RobinGG 3-1 MuteAce
RobinGG 3-2 WaDi
Mew2King 3-1 MVD
SKITTLES!! 3-1 Gen
Haven 3-0 Mr E
Grayson 3-1 Salem
Benny&TheJets 3-1 Cosmos
Lui$ 3-0 Samsora
LingLing 3-0 Nairo
Ned 3-1 Wrath


Loser's
Myran 3-1 VoiD (out at 97th) *VoiD DQ'ed to loser's due to showing up too late
Taoudi 3-2 Pelca (out at 97th)
holopup 3-1 MrConCon (out at 65th)
Sogoodpop 3-1 WaDi (out at 65th)
FlashBlaziken 3-1 Jayy (out at 65th)
Stretch 3-2 Larry Lurr (out at 65th)
Atomsk 3-2 Mr E (out at 65th)
The6Master 3-0 Tarik (out at 65th)
Snormanda 3-2 Kofi (out at 65th)
Justin 3-1 Peabnut (out at 65th)
Colmar 3-2 MuteAce (out at 65th)
The6Master 3-2 SuperGirlKels (out at 49th)
Sytonix 3-1 Myran (out at 49th)
Sytonix 3-1 Nairo (out at 33rd)
Mew2King 3-2 Riddles (out at 33rd)
The6Master 3-1 LeoN (out at 33rd)
kchris 3-1 Goblin (out at 33rd)
kchris 3-0 8BitMan (out at 17th)



Top 8 is going on right now, and here it is:

Winner's
BestNess vs MkLeo
Sonix 3-1 Tweek

Loser's
Dabuz vs Sparg0
Benny&TheJets vs Maister

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Here are the notable upsets/sets as of right now.

Capitancito 3-0 Goblin
Capitancito 3-2 Jayy

Lui$ 3-0 Samsora

Can't wait to see Samsora call that MU "even"...

 

[PK Gaming]

I can't be the only one who thinks Wario at his present is unbearable

A lot has been said about the other toxic top tiers, but I feel like people overlook this character's "heads I win, tails you lose" **** off waft combo

He's just a badly designed character. Maximum survivability, great mobility, absurd damage when he gets a clean hit, great KO potential even before the waft, and arguably the single best move in the game.

He's held back by a neutral that is average at best, but waft is so lopsided and the aforementioned traits make him a pain to deal with

 

[Vycoul]

I'm always very happy to see more Banjo & Kazooie discussion as the character is near and dear to me. But I find the optimism surrounding the character in these past few posts a little baffling. At this point, I've begun to struggle to even see B&K as a mid tier honestly.

I just don't understand what this character's saving grace is supposed to be. People use the words "solid" and "honest" when describing them very often.
You know who that sounds like to me? The character who is a case study on how merely being "not bad, but not great" in almost all aspects is rather... bad. Quite bad actually.
Their sluggish framedata often gets them stuffed out at close range, their projectiles are insufficient for a respectable zoning playstyle. Their abysmal airspeed prevents their aerials from being as threatening as they should be. Their trouble killing is pretty well documented.
What does that leave them with? A good recovery?

Actual good characters need BS to throw around. Even if it means paying the price in other aspects. We've seen this over and over in every Smash title.

I'd dare say that Banjo has absolutely nothing that is close to being overtuned. No offense to anyone, but I think Banjo being a candidate for high tier is laughable. And with mid tier being as vast as it is this time around, I can't help but feel that is out of his reach too.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The Quarantined Series Major #1

1st: Sonix
2nd: MkLeo
3rd: Maister
4th: Tweek
5th: Sparg0
5th: BestNess
7th: Dabuz
7th: Benny&TheJets
9th: LingLing
9th: ESAM
9th: Ned
9th: Kola
13th: SKITTLES!!
13th: Epic_Gabriel
13th: Lui$
13th: kcrhis
17th: Cosmos
17th: Br1 AV
17th: Wrath
17th: Samsora
17th: RobinGG
17th: Mekos
17th: 8BitMan
17th: MVD
25th: JohnY
25th: ZeroTwoNone
25th: Sytonix
25th: Mew2King
25th: The6Master
25th: Pokelam
25th: Snormanda
25th: Vinny G
33rd: GarbagePlayer
33rd: Toast
33rd: Mj
33rd: Stretch
33rd: Charliedaking
33rd: Nairo
33rd: colinies
33rd: Riddles
33rd: LeoN
33rd: Spiro
33rd: Capitancito
33rd: Grayson
33rd: Haven
33rd: Goblin
33rd: SuperStriker
33rd: Dusty_Carpet

 

[SwagGuy99]

The Quarantined Series Major #1

1st: Sonix
2nd: MkLeo
3rd: Maister
4th: Tweek
5th: Sparg0
5th: BestNess
7th: Dabuz
7th: Benny&TheJets
9th: LingLing
9th: ESAM
9th: Ned
9th: Kola
13th: SKITTLES!!
13th: Epic_Gabriel
13th: Lui$
13th: kcrhis
17th: Cosmos
17th: Br1 AV
17th: Wrath
17th: Samsora
17th: RobinGG
17th: Mekos
17th: 8BitMan
17th: MVD
25th: JohnY
25th: ZeroTwoNone
25th: Sytonix
25th: Mew2King
25th: The6Master
25th: Pokelam
25th: Snormanda
25th: Vinny G
33rd: GarbagePlayer
33rd: Toast
33rd: Mj
33rd: Stretch
33rd: Charliedaking
33rd: Nairo
33rd: colinies
33rd: Riddles
33rd: LeoN
33rd: Spiro
33rd: Capitancito
33rd: Grayson
33rd: Haven
33rd: Goblin
33rd: SuperStriker
33rd: Dusty_Carpet

For comparison's sake:

Interesting to see how much ROB and Cloud were in Top 48 compared to everyone else.

Also, I don't think we have any Mii Gunner mains in here, but without much going on here's something that might be worth discussing

"Why would anyone play Mii Gunner?"
What a stupid question.
Here's the Sans Gundertale optimized loadouts and match-up chart from the #1 Mii Gunner. If this chart looks whack to you, GOOD, stay free. Everyone else, use this as a loadout cheat sheet and be as carried as I am pic.twitter.com/FiduASgCGP

— Katakiri (@KatakiriG) May 2, 2020

 

[Lacrimosa]

Not sure if Snormanda vs. Kofi is an upset.
Like, he's one of those players (along with Young Eevey) that make Junior look like high-tier (maybe he actually is).

Or maybe it's just Europe being bad.

 

[DougEfresh]

I can't be the only one who thinks Wario at his present is unbearable

A lot has been said about the other toxic top tiers, but I feel like people overlook this character's "heads I win, tails you lose" **** off waft combo

He's just a badly designed character. Maximum survivability, great mobility, absurd damage when he gets a clean hit, great KO potential even before the waft, and arguably the single best move in the game.

He's held back by a neutral that is average at best, but waft is so lopsided and the aforementioned traits make him a pain to deal with

Yeah, I'm with you on Wario tbh. I've gotten marginally better at the MU so I'm not as salty about him as I used to be, but waft is busted especially because his insane air speed and acceleration allows him to camp like hell, charge waft for free, and wait for you to mess up and kill you at 40-50%. I hope they nerf it in some way in the next patch; maybe at least give him some kind of slap on the wrist punishment for not using it after a certain time (or just take its kill power down a notch or 2, either way).

I'm always very happy to see more Banjo & Kazooie discussion as the character is near and dear to me. But I find the optimism surrounding the character in these past few posts a little baffling. At this point, I've begun to struggle to even see B&K as a mid tier honestly.

I just don't understand what this character's saving grace is supposed to be. People use the words "solid" and "honest" when describing them very often.
You know who that sounds like to me? The character who is a case study on how merely being "not bad, but not great" in almost all aspects is rather... bad. Quite bad actually.
Their sluggish framedata often gets them stuffed out at close range, their projectiles are insufficient for a respectable zoning playstyle. Their abysmal airspeed prevents their aerials from being as threatening as they should be. Their trouble killing is pretty well documented.
What does that leave them with? A good recovery?

Actual good characters need BS to throw around. Even if it means paying the price in other aspects. We've seen this over and over in every Smash title.

I'd dare say that Banjo has absolutely nothing that is close to being overtuned. No offense to anyone, but I think Banjo being a candidate for high tier is laughable. And with mid tier being as vast as it is this time around, I can't help but feel that is out of his reach too.

You might be right that we could be getting ahead of ourselves in terms of optimism around him, but who knows. With so few players representing him competitively and such a slim fanbase, there's not been a lot of evolution in his meta; whether it's combos, MU strategies or anything in between. His air speed absolutely does suck, and I do think that'll be tough to work around in the long run. I also agree that their two projectiles aren't good for consistent zoning (though I don't think that should even become the case), and I think a big help would be to reduce the start up frames it takes to spawn rear egg and breegull blaster eggs (especially stray ones for pokes and edgeguards). Shave off a few start up frames on fair (say, f15-->f11/12), increase his grab range and perhaps give him some buffs for OOS options. Anyway, despite all of these limitations, I really fail to see how he's all the way down in low tier. Maybe he'll be stuck in mid tier purgatory for the rest of the game, or maybe we just need the right player to show us how to play him optimally supplemented by a few QoL improvements and fdata + range buffs down the road in some key areas and I do think you're looking at a strong and adaptable high tier character that can hold their own in the meta. He's also fun as hell to use imo, and Ik my growth as a player is more likely to persist if I stick with characters I enjoy. Just my two cents on the matter.

 

[Krysco]

Also, I don't think we have any Mii Gunner mains in here, but without much going on here's something that might be worth discussing

"Why would anyone play Mii Gunner?"
What a stupid question.
Here's the Sans Gundertale optimized loadouts and match-up chart from the #1 Mii Gunner. If this chart looks whack to you, GOOD, stay free. Everyone else, use this as a loadout cheat sheet and be as carried as I am pic.twitter.com/FiduASgCGP

— Katakiri (@KatakiriG) May 2, 2020

The only individual I recall posting about Mii Gunner in these threads is D Djmarcus44 . I don't really have any comment on Mii Gunner myself as I don't use the character and have hardly ever fought one but Djmarcus44 might be able to if they pop in.

 

[Arthur97]

It seems kind of drastic to say Banjo and Kazooie may not even be mid tier. They may not be outstanding, but they're at the very least decent, and, as far as I know, their moves actually function properly for the most part. At the other end of the spectrum, high tier may be pushing it.

That said, are their any other fighters that come to mind that you don't think are given a fair shake for whatever reason?