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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    584

KakuCP9

What does it mean to be strong?
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The funniest part is that tech has been found out quite a while ago.
It seems advancing pivot grabs are a possibility in Ultimate's engine:


The user describes the inputs as follows:

1. Dash forward :GCL::ultgreninja:
2. Dash backward :GCR::ultgreninja:
3. Immediately after dashing backward, cstick forward+grab :GCCL::GCZ::ultgreninja:

As an aside, this was somewhat possible in Smash 4 as well, but it wasn't doable in a way that would preserve forward momentum:



My assumption is the loss of perfect pivoting enables the pivot grab to be performed 1~2 frames sooner in Ultimate, allowing one to avoid the loss of forward momentum. This seems like a good tool for characters with good pivot grabs and initial dashes, at any rate.
I'm honestly stunned that no one used this stuff sooner.
 

DougEfresh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
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-:ultkrool: has basically the same pivot grab as :ultbowser:, so the Kroc can thrive off it.

-:ultkirby: can replace his diving headfirst grab with this, along with M2's.

-:ultmario:, :ultdoc:, :ultfalco:, :ultlucario:, :ultpalutena:, :ultcorrinf:, & :ultinkling: 's are quite disjointed, so they'll get some mileage.

-:ultcloud:, :ultganondorf:, & :ultlittlemac: still stink.


EDIT:
welp :ultzelda: got buffed again...
Yea I'm actually hyped to practice this tech and get it down despite not usually going for many pivot grabs in my gameplay as it is currently. Going for a less risky grab option with :ultlucario:could be the start of something significant for him if mastered properly, tbh. An option like this that allows me to grab with a tighter window of punishability could really help boost his grab game to more consistently land combos and strings at early-mid percents in addition to more regular grabs at mid-high percents with proper spacing and position to allow for tech chases/ledge traps/edeguards, and the latter is where he can be quite threatening with high and even mid levels of aura
 
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Frihetsanka

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Instead of using vague terms like "top tier" and "high tier" it might be a good idea to be a bit more concrete, like top 5, top 10, top 15, top 20 etc. Mr. Game & Watch is clearly not top 5, yet it doesn't seem too implausible to put him somewhere in top 15. Is top 15 top tier? Could be argued either way. Do people here think Mr. Game & Watch is top 15? I think he might be, though there's a lot of competition.
 

bc1910

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:ulthero: says "hi".
Hero's RNG crap has wholly consistent counterplay (shield at a distance, air camp up close, generally smother him so he can't use the menu) aside from Magic Burst which is admittedly the most broken move in the game, but it's still just one move which doesn't come up often in the menu anyway.

Lucario literally rewards you for you losing.

There are other mechanics like this (Arsene, KO punch, Limit) but none are quite so insulting as being able to completely outplay someone and then die to a stray Bair at 30%.

EDIT: Forgot about Hero’s crits, which are obviously ludicrous and don’t really have counterplay beyond not getting hit with the smash attacks in the first place.

I guess both characters are idiotic, Hero rewards you for getting lucky and Lucario rewards you for losing. You can at least mitigate a lot of Hero’s RNG stuff though as I described whereas you can’t do much about Lucario literally getting better as you beat him up.
 
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VodkaHaze

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Instead of using vague terms like "top tier" and "high tier" it might be a good idea to be a bit more concrete, like top 5, top 10, top 15, top 20 etc. Mr. Game & Watch is clearly not top 5, yet it doesn't seem too implausible to put him somewhere in top 15. Is top 15 top tier? Could be argued either way. Do people here think Mr. Game & Watch is top 15? I think he might be, though there's a lot of competition.
I've maintained :ultgnw: is Top 20 for a while now. I can definitely see him being in Top 15, but to put him in Top 10 is a bit of a stretch because there are some match-ups where he can really struggle, and Top 5 is not an option because there are characters with far better results and match-up spreads than G&W.
Hero's RNG crap has wholly consistent counterplay (shield at a distance, air camp up close, generally smother him so he can't use the menu) aside from Magic Burst which is admittedly the most broken move in the game, but it's still just one move which doesn't come up often in the menu anyway.

Lucario literally rewards you for you losing.

There are other mechanics like this (Arsene, KO punch, Limit) but none are quite so insulting as being able to completely outplay someone and then die to a stray Bair at 30%.
I don't think Magic Burst is the most broken move in the game. It's power is down to how much MP you have, and if you have very little, it won't do much damage. Not to mention while it makes for excellent ledge trapping, you lose all your MP, so if they hit you next stock or you fail to cement the KO, you might not have enough MP to recover if they hit you off the ledge. Plus its random when you get it. I think a far better move would be something like Wario Waft.
 

NotLiquid

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Jul 14, 2014
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Considering all of Inkling's best combos stem from grabs and she's usually trying to grab you whenever she's not walling you out or frame trapping you, that grab tech could prove really useful for her. Her pivot grab is already pretty potent.

In other news Wrath more or less made a brutal example out of Pac-Man's neutral and how it drops into bottom tier if you deny him the ability to summon Fruit. Granted, it'd obviously only be a character like Sonic who can take advantage of that considering his overall mobility and main means of attack isn't dictated by his normals, but it's painful watching how Laid gave up once Wrath grabbed the Fruit.

 
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Envoy of Chaos

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Now here's an interesting piece of tech that's been flying under the radar.

I'm excited to start practicing this one. :ultivysaur: feels like a winner here since her pivot and dash grabs come out of the same frame, and she can use every bit of safety she can get. I already fish for pivot grabs a lot with her as is.

What other characters do you guys think might benefit from this? DK and Bowser are some of the first to come to my mind. Luigi to, thanks to his insane grab combos.
Ness gets some really good mileage off this. Here are a few in game examples

There was a problem fetching the tweet
 

Nemesis561

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Jan 27, 2016
Messages
186
Guys, maybe we should all just take a chill pill so the thread doesn't get locked. This is getting heated for some reason.
I've maintained :ultgnw: is Top 20 for a while now. I can definitely see him being in Top 15, but to put him in Top 10 is a bit of a stretch because there are some match-ups where he can really struggle, and Top 5 is not an option because there are characters with far better results and match-up spreads than G&W.

I don't think Magic Burst is the most broken move in the game. It's power is down to how much MP you have, and if you have very little, it won't do much damage. Not to mention while it makes for excellent ledge trapping, you lose all your MP, so if they hit you next stock or you fail to cement the KO, you might not have enough MP to recover if they hit you off the ledge. Plus its random when you get it. I think a far better move would be something like Wario Waft.
While I don't think GNW is top 5, his matchup spread is pretty incredible. From what I've ascertained from various charts, it seems the consensus is that GNW definitely loses to Palutena, Cloud, Ike, Shulk, ZSS and maybe Roy/Chrom? The rest is even or winning. Losing to cloud and Palutena though is pretty problematic as you're going to run into those matchups pretty often
 

SwagGuy99

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Messages
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IMO we really shouldn't be using results as the #1 deciding factor for how good a character is. I feel like results (while they shouldn't be discounted entirely) can favor certain kinds of characters over others. Ch
Now here's an interesting piece of tech that's been flying under the radar.

I'm excited to start practicing this one. :ultivysaur: feels like a winner here since her pivot and dash grabs come out of the same frame, and she can use every bit of safety she can get. I already fish for pivot grabs a lot with her as is.

What other characters do you guys think might benefit from this? DK and Bowser are some of the first to come to my mind. Luigi to, thanks to his insane grab combos.
:ultgreninja: might gain the most from this. While his normal grab is actually pretty mediocre, his pivot grab his significantly more range. This tech might benefit him a lot in a similar manner to :ultbowser::ultzelda: or :ultdk:.

While I think MrGameguycolor MrGameguycolor already touched on most of the characters who benefit from this, I can also see :ultridley: and :ultwiifittrainer: benefiting from this due to how long ranged their pivot grabs are compared to their normal grabs.


Edit:
Instead of using vague terms like "top tier" and "high tier" it might be a good idea to be a bit more concrete, like top 5, top 10, top 15, top 20 etc. Mr. Game & Watch is clearly not top 5, yet it doesn't seem too implausible to put him somewhere in top 15. Is top 15 top tier? Could be argued either way. Do people here think Mr. Game & Watch is top 15? I think he might be, though there's a lot of competition.
I agree, using more concrete terms might help since everyone has their own opinion as to what constitutes as a top tier, whether high tiers are solo-viable, etc.

On the topic of :ultgnw: specifically, I think there's definitely a possibility. He serves his role as an anti-meta character very well and has winning matchups against a decent amount of top and high tiers like :ultfox::ultness::ultpeach::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultrob::ultsamus::ultsnake:. He also goes even with a decent amount of them as well and is helped by the fact that a decent amount of his more troublesome matchups (:ultmarth::ultmetaknight::ultbyleth::ultcorrin::ultsimon: and :ultike: who is possibly his worst matchup IMO) aren't ones he's going to have to fight very often. That being said, he still does lose to some top/high tiers that are more relevant (:ultcloud::ultpalutena::ultlucina::ultchrom::ultshulk::ultzss:).

Outside of his matchup spread, he has the benefits of having the best OOS option in the game, having a favorable set of attributes, great anti-zoning tools, a decent amount of disjointed moves, a strong combo and juggling game, decent (but sometimes inconsistent) kill power, and he's hard to hit. He does lack a forward facing approach option (outside of n-air and attack cancel b-air) which can be problematic and he also dies very early in some matchups (like :ultbowser::ultike: and :ultchrom:) as well.

He's a weird character to place, but I feel like he is definitely a Top 20 character due to his ability to serve as a strong counterpick against a large majority of the cast, the fact that he has a very strong overall kit, and because he only has a small amount of losing matchups against meta relevant characters. If :ultmarth::ultmetaknight: or :ultike: end up becoming more relevant characters in the future I can see him falling off a bit, but I think that he will always have a place in the meta.
 
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Arthur97

Smash Master
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Jun 7, 2016
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Yes, results do suffer from bias. At least to a degree. Sometimes, for some reason or another, people may just not want to use a fighter. Also, there are just so many to pick from, that some may get buried. Perhaps there are hidden gems just waiting to be elevating in this sea of a roster.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Yikes. Pound is really starting to run it to issues. Big thing is Grayson's controversial DQ in his set vs Cosmos. Grayson got up 2-0 but then Cosmos complained to the mods about lag. Grayson ended up being DQ'd due to having a lower PNG when tested
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
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It's not gonna necessarily be those with the biggest pivot grab range who will benefit most from doing this (at least as an approach), though I think that both Zelda and Greninja will enjoy the option quite a bit, as well as the obvious Inkling.

You don't really shield at midrange in this game unless there's something specific that you're responding to--you tend to dash back instead or use another movement option. And because there's no grab armor, dashing forward to grab is usually risky anyway.

It's probably best for characters who A) have high reward from grab, B) can condition you into shielding at midrange, and C) have good frame data on pivot grab already.

If I had to guess, I'd say it benefits :ultjoker: the most. Joker has tons of grab reward and Eiha/Gun conditions you to shield at the perfect range for this (just think about how many dash grabs MKLeo gets). Plus, Joker's pivot grab is only frame 9 with 37 frames endlag--compared to a frame-14 Greninja dash grab with 41 frames endlag, that's actually really good.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Messages
3,195
Pound Online Top 8

Winner's
Tarik:ultgreninja: vs 8BitMan:ultrob:
Cosmos:ultinkling: vs Sonix:ultsonic:

Loser's
Dabuz:ultrosalina::ultolimar: vs Jw:ultgreninja:
LingLing:ultpeach: vs Goblin:ultroy:
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Inkling finally won a major***!
* It was online
** One set was a DQ win at a 0-2 deficit
*** Pikachu was used for one set
 
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The_Bookworm

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Messages
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Pound Online

1st: Cosmos:ultinkling::ultpikachu:
2nd: Dabuz:ultrosalina::ultolimar:
3rd: 8BitMan:ultrob:
4th: Tarik:ultgreninja:
5th: Sonix:ultsonic:
5th: Goblin:ultroy::ultchrom:
7th: LingLing:ultpeach::ultdaisy:
7th: Jw:ultgreninja:
9th: Sparg0:ultcloud:
9th: Gen:ultpalutena:
9th: SuperGirlKels:ultsonic::ultkirby:
9th: Maister:ultgnw:
13th: Kola:ultroy::ultcloud::ultsnake:
13th: BestNess:ultness::ultpiranha::ultpalutena:
13th: Ned:ultpokemontrainerf::ultcloud:
13th: Pokelam:ultvillager::ultisabelle::ultdk:
17th: Jakal:ultwolf:
17th: Salem:ulthero::ultsnake:
17th: Wrath:ultsonic:
17th: Grayson:ultrob:
17th: Sebayee:ultgnw:
17th: Spiro:ultpalutena:
17th: Epic_Gabriel:ultrob:
17th: MkLeo:ultwolf::ultbyleth::ultcloud:
25th: Raffi-X:ultrob:
25th: Sharp:ultjoker::ultzss:
25th: Lui$:ultfox::ultdoc::ultmario:
25th: Sogoodpop:ultwiifittrainer:
25th: Mj:ultrob:
25th: holopup:ultpalutena:
25th: NickRiddle:ultbowser::ultzss:
25th: Aikota:ultgunner::ultlucas::ultness:
33rd: Mr. E:ultlucina:
33rd: WaDi:ultrob:
33rd: Regalo:ultlucas:
33rd: ZeroTwoNone:ultzelda:
33rd: ShinyMark:ultpikachu::ultmario::ultjoker::ultlucina:
33rd: GamingHI9x9:ultluigi:
33rd: Laid:ultpacman::ultmarth:
33rd: FullStream:ultinkling:
33rd: Colmar:ultpacman:
33rd: Tohru:ultpalutena::ultlucina::ultjoker:
33rd: Bloom4Eva:ultbayonetta::ultpokemontrainer::ultjoker::ultpiranha::ultrob:
33rd: Middy:ultpacman:
33rd: Train:ultpalutena::ultrob:
33rd: Justin:ultdarksamus::ultsamus::ultpalutena::ultcloud:
33rd: MiLe:ultyoshi:
33rd: Vapor:ultjoker:
 

Lacrimosa

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If only her grab framedata was better :(.
But I guess it kinda has to be since she also has two kill throws.
 

Nobie

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I was watching this video with the designer of the recent Killer Instinct, Keits, and he brought up something about balance that I found interesting. The conversation is in the context of "making games easier for beginners," which he kind of sees as a fool's errand because a game that lets new players compete with veterans is "a bad game" in his opinion.

On the subject of balance, Keits mentions that he didn't really care about "true balance" in the sense of every character being the same in overall strength. In fact, they purposely made some stronger and some weaker, depending on their complexity (an extremely complex character should reward dedication) and even how frustrating they'd be for the opponent (intentionally toned down). What's more important, then, is that different characters attract different personalities who are willing to put in the time and effort for a given character's overall play style.

I wonder to what extent Ultimate operates on a similar principle. I feel like at least some of the low tiers (perceived or otherwise) operate similarly. Little Mac, K. Rool, Incineroar, etc. all have prominent gimmicks that are arguably better off not being too strong. And they still attract at least some players as well, whether they're trying to be low tier heroes, are long-time fans of the characters themselves, or just like the way they play.

Aside from certain echo fighters, do people think the characters in Ultimate are different enough to garner sufficiently different personalities for each? Are the players who suffer from severe character crisis the ones who simply could not find their archetype within the 80 or so choices?
 
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I was watching this video with the designer of the recent Killer Instinct, Keits, and he brought up something about balance that I found interesting. The conversation is in the context of "making games easier for beginners," which he kind of sees as a fool's errand because a game that lets new players compete with veterans is "a bad game" in his opinion.
This isn't exactly a fresh take. Core-A Gaming made a video on this very subject called "The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap" which I think is an awesome watch if you're interested in this topic. Beyond that, I also think nothing can really make beginners compete with experienced veterans. Any attempt to make a game like that is either going to fail or not be worth playing, and so, it's better to make a game that balances execution and lab time requirements with a fun, healthy experience. I see Melee as a game that went too far in one direction, and while the game is fun to play and watch, it's also incredibly hard to get into and has literally caused long-term damage to its players' hands.

On the subject of balance, Keits mentions that he didn't really care about "true balance" in the sense of every character being the same in overall strength. In fact, they purposely made some stronger and some weaker, depending on their complexity (an extremely complex character should reward dedication) and even how frustrating they'd be for the opponent (intentionally toned down). What's more important, then, is that different characters attract different personalities who are willing to put in the time and effort for a given character's overall play style.

I wonder to what extent Ultimate operates on a similar principle. I feel like at least some of the low tiers (perceived or otherwise) operate similarly. Little Mac, K. Rool, Incineroar, etc. all have prominent gimmicks that are arguably better off not being too strong. And they still attract at least some players as well, whether they're trying to be low tier heroes, are long-time fans of the characters themselves, or just like the way they play.

Aside from certain echo fighters, do people think the characters in Ultimate are different enough to garner sufficiently different personalities for each? Are the players who suffer from severe character crisis the ones who simply could not find their archetype within the 80 or so choices?
Where Ultimate is concerned I think asking why someone can't find their character in a cast of 80 is sort of a disingenuous question. Ultimate is a relatively balanced game. It is also the most homogenous Smash title ever released. Characters with unique playstyles have been flattened down to fit a few existing archetypes. 5 of those 80 characters are variations on Marth. Two are variants of Mario.

I could never find a character I wanted to invest a lot of time into until Brawl came out and ZSS with it. Brawl ZSS is a relatively unique character who does a lot of things other characters don't and has such an unusual game plan that it took players years to figure out what it even was. It's fairly uncontroversial to say ZSS is a top tier character in Brawl these days, but when she was released no one really knew what to do with her because she was so strange. In Smash 4 and especially in Ultimate, ZSS is speedy rushdown character with good disadvantage state number eleventeen. There are now half a dozen characters that play if not exactly like her, then similarly enough. ZSS is a function now. Playing her over Pikachu, Pichu, Mii Brawler, Captain Falcon, or whatever else is a choice you make for the narcissism of minor differences, balance notwithstanding.

Most characters with unique playstyles have seen similar changes or redesigns to make them fit existing molds and archetypes because it makes the game easier to balance. To that end, it was a success, and Ultimate is a good game, so I can't be too mad about it.
 
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Arthur97

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Okay, nitpick, but where are these 4th and 5th variations of Marth? Not counting Marth himself, you have Roy, Lucina, and Chrom.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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I was watching this video with the designer of the recent Killer Instinct, Keits, and he brought up something about balance that I found interesting. The conversation is in the context of "making games easier for beginners," which he kind of sees as a fool's errand because a game that lets new players compete with veterans is "a bad game" in his opinion.

On the subject of balance, Keits mentions that he didn't really care about "true balance" in the sense of every character being the same in overall strength. In fact, they purposely made some stronger and some weaker, depending on their complexity (an extremely complex character should reward dedication) and even how frustrating they'd be for the opponent (intentionally toned down). What's more important, then, is that different characters attract different personalities who are willing to put in the time and effort for a given character's overall play style.

I wonder to what extent Ultimate operates on a similar principle. I feel like at least some of the low tiers (perceived or otherwise) operate similarly. Little Mac, K. Rool, Incineroar, etc. all have prominent gimmicks that are arguably better off not being too strong. And they still attract at least some players as well, whether they're trying to be low tier heroes, are long-time fans of the characters themselves, or just like the way they play.

Aside from certain echo fighters, do people think the characters in Ultimate are different enough to garner sufficiently different personalities for each? Are the players who suffer from severe character crisis the ones who simply could not find their archetype within the 80 or so choices?
Maybe?

That’s the cop out answer but funny enough this topic was on my mind today. More goes into character design than just moveset. Character personality, attributes, background, color scheme, hell even voice actor really are what sell a character to a player even if they are aware of it or not when they first picked up a character.

As far as more gameplay reasons, character viability/play style I would say Ultimate does suffer from lacking or rather not having enough distinctions between characters, not counting echos. When you really look at Yink and Link, for example are they really that different from each other? They have similar objectives, their move set while having some functional differentiation look really similar and do have plenty of functional similarities. Can we not express Link with one character? Can that development time be spent elsewhere?

Another common complaint is the over saturation of sword characters. Marth aside being a top character was incredibly popular in Melee and Brawl. He was more unique unlike anything Smash had seen before playstyle. But now we have Ultimate and sure he’s not as strong of a character now but let’s say your a new player. You see the fire emblem cast, what’s going to stick out from Heroic anime styled swordsman from Heroic anime styled swordsman from Heroic anime styled swordsman? I’m referring to Marth, Roy/Chrom and Ike. All three different playstyles but as characters, frankly rather similar. I can see how someone could have character crisis when stuff like this is all over the roster. Despite having a ton of characters, the identities of the characters aren’t always so clearly defined.
 

DougEfresh

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On the subject of balance, Keits mentions that he didn't really care about "true balance" in the sense of every character being the same in overall strength. In fact, they purposely made some stronger and some weaker, depending on their complexity (an extremely complex character should reward dedication) and even how frustrating they'd be for the opponent (intentionally toned down). What's more important, then, is that different characters attract different personalities who are willing to put in the time and effort for a given character's overall play style.

I wonder to what extent Ultimate operates on a similar principle. I feel like at least some of the low tiers (perceived or otherwise) operate similarly. Little Mac, K. Rool, Incineroar, etc. all have prominent gimmicks that are arguably better off not being too strong. And they still attract at least some players as well, whether they're trying to be low tier heroes, are long-time fans of the characters themselves, or just like the way they play.
All of this right here is why I advocate just picking one or more characters who you actually enjoy for any number of reasons and whose playstyle(s) you mesh with over picking high/top tiers just because they're all "better" than everyone one else in the game. Superior knowledge of the game is what's going to take you the farthest outside of the very highest levels of gameplay, and while not all characters will be given the time of day to see their potential realized because of the sheer size of the roster in Ultimate, it really just takes that one player who has the work ethic and creativity with a character's tools to make new discoveries and optimizations that propels them into the limelight of popularity and widespread usage after being largely overlooked, underrated and under-represented up until that time comes.

For the greater majority of competitive players even, I think they're more likely to get success (especially in the long term) with a low or mid tier character that fits like a glove for them over a high or top tier that doesn't get the player excited or motivated to grind (top level players being the exception to all this ofc due to the large sums of money that's on the line at big tournies); low tier heroes or mid tier mains be damned. Not to mention that for all the people that complain about wanting buffs to their characters, that time could be much better spent just practicing to improve themselves as players and if the buffs do come, they can be even more threatening with that level of skill they've built up before seeing improvements to their mains.
 

meleebrawler

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Maybe?

That’s the cop out answer but funny enough this topic was on my mind today. More goes into character design than just moveset. Character personality, attributes, background, color scheme, hell even voice actor really are what sell a character to a player even if they are aware of it or not when they first picked up a character.

As far as more gameplay reasons, character viability/play style I would say Ultimate does suffer from lacking or rather not having enough distinctions between characters, not counting echos. When you really look at Yink and Link, for example are they really that different from each other? They have similar objectives, their move set while having some functional differentiation look really similar and do have plenty of functional similarities. Can we not express Link with one character? Can that development time be spent elsewhere?

Another common complaint is the over saturation of sword characters. Marth aside being a top character was incredibly popular in Melee and Brawl. He was more unique unlike anything Smash had seen before playstyle. But now we have Ultimate and sure he’s not as strong of a character now but let’s say your a new player. You see the fire emblem cast, what’s going to stick out from Heroic anime styled swordsman from Heroic anime styled swordsman from Heroic anime styled swordsman? I’m referring to Marth, Roy/Chrom and Ike. All three different playstyles but as characters, frankly rather similar. I can see how someone could have character crisis when stuff like this is all over the roster. Despite having a ton of characters, the identities of the characters aren’t always so clearly defined.
Isn't this just a consequence of bringing every member of a rotating cast back? Back in the Brawl days it was easy to assume characters like Toon Link, Ike or even Lucario were acting as replacements for previous fighters, regardless of how similar they really were to, say, Young Link, Roy or Mewtwo.

Also, it's not like new players are being frontloaded with loads of similar choices when you have to unlock most of them.
 
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Okay, nitpick, but where are these 4th and 5th variations of Marth? Not counting Marth himself, you have Roy, Lucina, and Chrom.
I was thinking Marth, Roy, Lucina, Ike, and Chrom, though your opinion on how similar Ike is to the others might differ from mine (he's slower and hits harder, I don't think he's super different tbh)

Isn't this just a consequence of bringing every member of a rotating cast back? Back in the Brawl days it was easy to assume characters like Toon Link, Ike or even Lucario were acting as replacements for previous fighters, regardless of how similar they really were to, say, Young Link, Roy or Mewtwo.

Also, it's not like new players are being frontloaded with loads of similar choices when you have to unlock most of them.
This completely. Toon Link was definitely a replacement for Young Link, and while they aren't exactly the same, both of them are zoning characters that use variations of the same 3 projectiles. It's great that we have both now, and I'm not mad about that, but it's definitely not the case that we have 80 distinct playstyles to choose from.

I'd argue that most of the replacements were actually good ideas. Mewtwo was always pretty unique though, and I don't think Lucario was really very similar. In fact I think Melee Zelda was more similar to Mewtwo than Brawl Lucario.

Unrelated, but I cosign the notion that you should play a character that gets you excited to play the game and not the character that's necessarily the best character. Ultimate is still young, and there are undoubtedly still characters that are considered low or mid tier because they're unexplored or not played by a skilled professional or both. Melee Pikachu and Yoshi, Brawl ZSS and Samus, etc. are great examples of what a skilled player can bring to a character previously thought to be completely unviable. Mew2King said he thinks Brawl Samus is high tier on stream last night because he was able to go to Japan and play a great player who picked up Samus when Brawl was released and just never quit playing her. There's nothing stopping you from innovating with a character who isn't used especially often and if your character is going to stop you from improving it'll be a long time before that's a concern.

I think that while character tiers are there (and I'm not saying they're not real or whatever), they're not as important as we sometimes think they are. In Ultimate especially, characters we consider mediocre are still totally capable of doing quite a lot.
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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Isn't this just a consequence of bringing every member of a rotating cast back? Back in the Brawl days it was easy to assume characters like Toon Link, Ike or even Lucario were acting as replacements for previous fighters, regardless of how similar they really were to, say, Young Link, Roy or Mewtwo.

Also, it's not like new players are being frontloaded with loads of similar choices when you have to unlock most of them.
Oh for sure, bringing back every single character in the history of a long running fighter and that will happen in any game that has had fighters come and go that’s no surprise. I wouldn’t expect developers to even be able to devote time and resources on making sure each character feels different enough from each other, especially in such an ambitious project like Ultimate. That’s why things like echos and semi clones exist to offer some diversity without requiring as much time and resources as starting from scratch and I am greatful for the effort.

But a consequence of doing so is that fighters can start to feel “samey” as mentioned above and character crisis can arise when unable to really find character play styles and personalities that fit your own. Part of this is also just the limits placed on making a smash fighter moveset due to the design choice of smash. It’s has two buttons that allow you to access all your attacks and special moves, no complex inputs are needed to preform combos or attacks. This among others, limits what you can do when making a moveset and I think the developers do a really good job of diversifying movesets with this limitation (Please keep doing what you did with Terry in giving him more specials, brilliant addition). But at the same time fall short at making characters within archetypes feel different enough from each other (in moveset and in individuality).

I really like the fact we are getting so many DLC fighters. DLC fighters aren’t developed alongside the whole game, as such much more time and attention can be given to to making them feel different. Compare Terry to other characters in his archetype or a more extreme example Hero to characters in his archetype. That’s the kind of ideal individualizations I’d like to see smash characters move towards.
 

Arthur97

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I was thinking Marth, Roy, Lucina, Ike, and Chrom, though your opinion on how similar Ike is to the others might differ from mine (he's slower and hits harder, I don't think he's super different tbh)


This completely. Toon Link was definitely a replacement for Young Link, and while they aren't exactly the same, both of them are zoning characters that use variations of the same 3 projectiles. It's great that we have both now, and I'm not mad about that, but it's definitely not the case that we have 80 distinct playstyles to choose from.

I'd argue that most of the replacements were actually good ideas. Mewtwo was always pretty unique though, and I don't think Lucario was really very similar. In fact I think Melee Zelda was more similar to Mewtwo than Brawl Lucario.

Unrelated, but I cosign the notion that you should play a character that gets you excited to play the game and not the character that's necessarily the best character. Ultimate is still young, and there are undoubtedly still characters that are considered low or mid tier because they're unexplored or not played by a skilled professional or both. Melee Pikachu and Yoshi, Brawl ZSS and Samus, etc. are great examples of what a skilled player can bring to a character previously thought to be completely unviable. Mew2King said he thinks Brawl Samus is high tier on stream last night because he was able to go to Japan and play a great player who picked up Samus when Brawl was released and just never quit playing her. There's nothing stopping you from innovating with a character who isn't used especially often and if your character is going to stop you from improving it'll be a long time before that's a concern.

I think that while character tiers are there (and I'm not saying they're not real or whatever), they're not as important as we sometimes think they are. In Ultimate especially, characters we consider mediocre are still totally capable of doing quite a lot.
Ike is very different. Their movesets are vastly different. Thats about like the argument that Lucas and Wolf are clones except perhaps even more outlandish.

Also, your math didn't seem to include Mario for the second half unless you don't consider Luigi a variant of Mario yet you do consider Ike a variant of Marth, but it did include Marth apparently.
 
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Ike is very different. Their movesets are vastly different. Thats about like the argument that Lucas and Wolf are clones except perhaps even more outlandish.

Also, your math didn't seem to include Mario for the second half unless you don't consider Luigi a variant of Mario yet you do consider Ike a variant of Marth, but it did include Marth apparently.
So what if Ike and Marth aren't exactly the same? They're still sword dudes that want to space aerials until they get a hit and then follow up with their advantage state.

Like, Ike in Brawl wasn't that. He was a ground-based character with an excellent close quarters game like Ultimate Falco or whatever. He had an excellent jab and great tilts. His aerials were also good but they didn't generally get him much and they were mostly used for single hits. RAR back air was essentially a grounded footsies option at mid and high percents. His back throw->dash attack was a bnb used to get opponents offstage. While he has a few of the same tools in Ultimate and 4, his gameplan is completely different and much more similar to the other sword characters, especially the Fire Emblem ones.

What you're doing is assuming I'm saying they're "clones" (a meaningless term, but whatever) when in fact I'm saying they're slight variations of a playstyle. ZSS in Brawl was... something. Her escapes were terrible, her disadvantage was arguably pretty bad, her jab literally didn't work, and her recovery, though flexible, was easy to call out if you caught her a bad position. She was super fast though, hit very hard (fair did 17% damage for example), and was really hard to catch if you had a good handle on her movement. She had absurd punishes and a unique stun mechanic. ZSS players developed over time a low commitment playstyle. She was super good at keeping a lead because approaching her was very difficult and good at getting one because she started the round with 3 completely unique, powerful items that gave her extra offensive and defensive options as well as incredible mobility and stage control. In Brawl, it was hard to even describe her archetype. In Ultimate, she's just a speedy rushdown character.

I don't really see how minutiae like this is helpful for the discussion. The point is that there's a lot of overlap in terms of general game plan with characters in Ultimate, moreso than in games past. Whether or not my specific observations about one character are valid is not the point.
 
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Gearkeeper-8a

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To be honest past games didnt have much diversification aside from top tiers and some high tiers, you cant really say melee bowser has a playstyle or that melee roy playstyle even works same with smash 4 and brawl low tiers

Interesting playstyles doesnt matter much if they cant success with them at high level play, much less in a game like brawl with so many polarizing matchups.
 

Arthur97

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So what if Ike and Marth aren't exactly the same? They're still sword dudes that want to space aerials until they get a hit and then follow up with their advantage state.

Like, Ike in Brawl wasn't that. He was a ground-based character with an excellent close quarters game like Ultimate Falco or whatever. He had an excellent jab and great tilts. His aerials were also good but they didn't generally get him much and they were mostly used for single hits. RAR back air was essentially a grounded footsies option at mid and high percents. His back throw->dash attack was a bnb used to get opponents offstage. While he has a few of the same tools in Ultimate and 4, his gameplan is completely different and much more similar to the other sword characters, especially the Fire Emblem ones.

What you're doing is assuming I'm saying they're "clones" (a meaningless term, but whatever) when in fact I'm saying they're slight variations of a playstyle. ZSS in Brawl was... something. Her escapes were terrible, her disadvantage was arguably pretty bad, her jab literally didn't work, and her recovery, though flexible, was easy to call out if you caught her a bad position. She was super fast though, hit very hard (fair did 17% damage for example), and was really hard to catch if you had a good handle on her movement. She had absurd punishes and a unique stun mechanic. ZSS players developed over time a low commitment playstyle. She was super good at keeping a lead because approaching her was very difficult and good at getting one because she started the round with 3 completely unique, powerful items that gave her extra offensive and defensive options as well as incredible mobility and stage control. In Brawl, it was hard to even describe her archetype. In Ultimate, she's just a speedy rushdown character.

I don't really see how minutiae like this is helpful for the discussion. The point is that there's a lot of overlap in terms of general game plan with characters in Ultimate, moreso than in games past. Whether or not my specific observations about one character are valid is not the point.
Similar in playstyle then isn't merely a variation on Marth. While I think there is a trend toward making them more homogeneous in stuff like the universal changes to stuff like shorthops and pummels, Calling everyone with a similar playstyle a variation of one fighter seems like overkill and an over exaggeration. Would you call ZSS a variation on Captain Falcon? Plus, by that logic, isn't Roy a speedy rushdown fighter at least to some degree?

On the other hand, I also don't think a fighter has to be competitively viable to have a purpose. Like, people who want heavies to be competitively viable, well, in order to do that, they may lose a lot of that super heaviness. Fast, speedy fighters usually do better, and that's fine, but not everyone should be that. However, we aren't there yet. It's just kind of ridiculous to expect almost all of them to play vastly different than each other. Nevermind the balancing nightmare (you like to mention Brawl, well, it wasn't exactly the most balanced game).

Then again, I also don't think that fighters need gimmicks. So long as the moves themselves are different, and I don't really find a lot of the cast "samey." I'm happy (well, that they're unique). Plus, gimmicks can result in the nightmare that is Arsene.
 
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Similar in playstyle then isn't merely a variation on Marth. While I think there is a trend toward making them more homogeneous in stuff like the universal changes to stuff like shorthops and pummels, Calling everyone with a similar playstyle a variation of one fighter seems like overkill and an over exaggeration. Would you call ZSS a variation on Captain Falcon? Plus, by that logic, isn't Roy a speedy rushdown fighter at least to some degree?

On the other hand, I also don't think a fighter has to be competitively viable to have a purpose. Like, people who want heavies to be competitively viable, well, in order to do that, they may lose a lot of that super heaviness. Fast, speedy fighters usually do better, and that's fine, but not everyone should be that. However, we aren't there yet. It's just kind of ridiculous to expect almost all of them to play vastly different than each other. Nevermind the balancing nightmare (you like to mention Brawl, well, it wasn't exactly the most balanced game).

Then again, I also don't think that fighters need gimmicks. So long as the moves themselves are different, and I don't really find a lot of the cast "samey." I'm happy. Plus, gimmicks can result in the nightmare that is Arsene.
I don't expect everyone to play vastly different and even said above that I think the strategy worked, generally. The game is more balanced now, and is definitely more balanceable.

But you do lose a bit of the flavor of each character. It also sucks a bit that sword characters all seem to automatically play a certain way and have a certain strategic focus. Ike having a sword but being mostly a close-range character was interesting, if unintended. Roy rushes down more than say Lucina, but that's a spectrum and neither of them are that far on either side of it.

And yeah, I'd say ZSS is more similar now to Captain Falcon than she was when she debuted. That doesn't mean I think she's exactly the same, it means she's more similar now than ever before.
 
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NairWizard

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In Smash 4 and especially in Ultimate, ZSS is speedy rushdown character with good disadvantage state number eleventeen.
Mostly I agree with your point, but this stands out to me. Ultimate ZSS is a zoner, somewhere between Marth and Sheik in terms of playstyle. She might be overall the campiest character in the game, but you usually can't tell that she's camping like you can with Sonic, because she camps right up in your face. In that sense it's not too different from what Brawl ZSS offered, except the items which were utterly incredible as a mechanic (Salem's item play is still some of the most beautiful smash I've ever seen).

She's still pretty unique even in a cast of 80 characters, but if I had to pin her down, I'd sooner call her a Marth archetype than a Pikachu archetype. She just doesn't have the grounded hitboxes and OOS aerials to play a rushdown game (not that she has the disjoints to play a Marth swordsman zoning style, either, mind--that's what makes her unique. She has tons of speed without a meaningful way of translating it into offense, so she has to do this weird empty jump cat-and-mouse game that's exclusive to her).

While he has a few of the same tools in Ultimate and 4, his gameplan is completely different and much more similar to the other sword characters, especially the Fire Emblem ones.
Roy in this game pretty much has the Ike archetype that you're talking about (being really safe up close with huge reward, thus disincentivizing sword spacing).

For that reason, I also would put Roy in the rushdown archetype sooner than in the sword zoner archetype. He has a sword, but unlike Chrom, he doesn't really play like a swordsman (or, to use EmblemLord's argument, he can't play like a swordsman, which is functionally the same thing).

The overall homogenization that you're talking about is a natural artifact of striving toward better balance, but I don't think it's necessarily a loss of character identity. Since I see we've had like two pages of balance discussion already (including the "is Game and Watch a top tier or is Maister just too good?" debate):

*faces mirror*

"Balance! Balance! Balance!"
 
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Arthur97

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I don't expect everyone to play vastly different and even said above that I think the strategy worked, generally. The game is more balanced now, and is definitely more balanceable.

But you do lose a bit of the flavor of each character. It also sucks a bit that sword characters all seem to automatically play a certain way and have a certain strategic focus. Ike having a sword but being mostly a close-range character was interesting, if unintended. Roy rushes down more than say Lucina, but that's a spectrum and neither of them are that far on either side of it.

And yeah, I'd say ZSS is more similar now to Captain Falcon than she was when she debuted. That doesn't mean I think she's exactly the same, it means she's more similar now than ever before.
But she's still different. Most of them are different. Ironically, the "Marth" types moreso than the other echoes too. However, some people seem to think they are so similar. More than they probably are. It's not like they're interchangeable. You can't go from Lucina to Ike and expect to instantly know exactly what you're supposed to do. It may be easier than switching from Lucina to Kirby, but you still have to learn them. Clearly they're different enough to warrant one being good and one being mediocre, or even bad.

I don't know, I just don't get this samey feel that others do. At least, not in the same way. Like, Terry feels more samey to me if just because he reuses two gimmicks (which had previously only been on two similar fighters). To the point where I've done his down special just expecting a focus attack.
 
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Mostly I agree with your point, but this stands out to me. Ultimate ZSS is a zoner, somewhere between Marth and Sheik in terms of playstyle. She might be overall the campiest character in the game, but you usually can't tell that she's camping like you can with Sonic, because she camps right up in your face. In that sense it's not too different from what Brawl ZSS offered, except the items which were utterly incredible as a mechanic (Salem's item play is still some of the most beautiful smash I've ever seen).

She's still pretty unique even in a cast of 80 characters, but if I had to pin her down, I'd sooner call her a Marth archetype than a Pikachu archetype. She just doesn't have the grounded hitboxes and OOS aerials to play a rushdown game (not that she has the disjoints to play a Marth swordsman zoning style, either, mind--that's what makes her unique. She has tons of speed without a meaningful way of translating it into offense, so she has to do this weird empty jump cat-and-mouse game that's exclusive to her).
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I think a big difference to me is in how she's rewarded. In Brawl, the reward was damage. Approaching ZSS wrong /hurt./ In Ultimate, it's like, oh she reset to neutral and wasted my time. Maybe you ate a baby paralyzer which MAYBE (depending on positioning) set up for a throw/dash attack/nair mixup. Ultimate ZSS does her damage by finding a way to hit you. In Brawl she got her damage by messing with you while you tried to hit her. She's running away but she's doing so in service of finding opportunities to nair you vs. running away in order to bait you into getting stunned/whipped.

But she's still different. Most of them are different.
They're different, but we're still seeing big shifts in archetype to afford a more balanced game. The only thing ZSS and Falcon used to have in common is that they both ran good.
 
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Arthur97

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And I may agree about the further bringing together of the cast to a degree, but mostly in regard to the super heavies or smaller things at the moment like the aforementioned pummels (or something like Mac where people seem to want to force him to be more like the rest so that he'll be better competitively). However, again, we aren't to point where it's essentially pick a playstyle and just interchange them as you see fit and I doubt we ever will be. For to get that bad, it would essenetially have to be five to ten templates and everyone is based off that. Not just in the general and rather vague category of "rushdown." Back to the Marth example, landing aerials and pushing advantage is kind of vague.

This everyone feels so the same business really seems to ignore the intricacies of the game and fighters. If you want to be vague enough, everyone has the same game plan: take stocks and win. Even with the same general playstyle, they require different timing, moves to be used, moves to not be used, they likely have different disadvantage states, recoveries, movement specs. Now, some may be closer than others, and that generally doesn't count echoes (though they can still differ somewhat), but they are hardly mostly the same. Some top players may even play a fighter differently than another top player depending on the fighter.
 
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NairWizard

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Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I think a big difference to me is in how she's rewarded. In Brawl, the reward was damage. Approaching ZSS wrong /hurt./ In Ultimate, it's like, oh she reset to neutral and wasted my time. Maybe you ate a baby paralyzer which MAYBE (depending on positioning) set up for a throw/dash attack/nair mixup. Ultimate ZSS does her damage by finding a way to hit you. In Brawl she got her damage by messing with you while you tried to hit her. She's running away but she's doing so in service of finding opportunities to nair you vs. running away in order to bait you into getting stunned/whipped.
I see what you're saying, but I still disagree.

ZSS still has one of the craziest advantage states in the game, so that hasn't really changed. Approaching ZSS wrong hurts in this game too.

As for how they play the neutral, Brawl ZSS lived in a world where even the fastest of hitboxes were getting punished with a buffering system that rewarded your reaction time. ZSS side-b and grab were regularly getting avoided, and after an initial rise to top tier post-Apex2012, perceptions of ZSS fell off pretty harshly (she never won a big tournament again).

Brawl was also a game of intense microspacing, not like the set-distance dashing we have in this game. Meta Knight f-tilts were regularly getting punished by pristine spaced d-tilts in the ditto.

In that environment, ZSS had to play that defensively, because her hitboxes weren't good enough for anything else.

No one's hitboxes really were good enough for anything else, to be fair, besides Nairo's Meta Knight (which, if I had to guess, would have paved the way for lots of similarly aggressive styles if the game had any kind of future, but since the game didn't continue that didn't happen).

On the note of Nairo, it's worth mentioning that there was also a very distinctly human element in the mix here--Salem pioneered Brawl ZSS neutral, and Salem, as we all know, loves defensive neutral.

Nairo, on the other hand, pioneered the neutral for S4 ZSS, and it looks very very grab-read-heavy as a consequence. If you watch Marss' S4 ZSS, you'll notice that it looks absolutely nothing like Nairo's--way fewer grab reads and way more empty jump movements, like you see with Marss' Ultimate ZSS.

Marss' style of ZSS in S4 was sub-optimal, but ZSS in the transition lost many of the the tools that favored Nairo's style and gained a bunch of tools that favored Marss' style. Had Nairo not existed in S4, you likely would have thought of S4 ZSS quite differently from the current grab-centric up-air up-b fiend that you likely picture in your head, although you'd also probably think of her as a bit worse, too.

Ultimate ZSS' hitboxes are overall better, but, just like S4 ZSS before her and Brawl ZSS before her, she still can't space them that easily (besides z-air) in neutral. At this point it's clearly an explicit design decision. Because she doesn't have a tomahawk option, it's very easy to anti-air ZSS, and once you, as the ZSS player, start getting anti-aired out of shield, you have to start playing grounded.

Grounded ZSS gets almost all of her reward from tech chases (meaning that nothing is guaranteed), and those start almost exclusively from grab whiff punishes. It's no coincidence that they gave ZSS the best initial dash in the game going into Ultimate--her ability to dash back out of your midrange burst range and then grab you for using that option is almost unparalleled.

Then, once she starts getting tech chases from grabbing, the opponent is going to start choosing options like dash in -> jump aerial to catch her dash back. This opens up the opponent for getting hit by n-airs, z-airs, and up-airs and the reward that we all know ZSS for.

The full picture is that ZSS is playing a grounded whiff punishing game to condition you into letting her play an air spacing game. It's like she switches from Sheik to Marth and back from Marth to Sheik when she's playing neutral. No other character really has this design, even others with tethers capable of whiff punishing (e.g., Samus, who bases her neutral on Charge Shot mixups and anti-airs).

The ZSS that you describe sounds more like a traditional zoner like Ultimate Pacman (baiting you into getting hit by fruit, in this case, which can lead to obscene reward). The items were the most unique thing about the character, at least from my perspective. Getting half a stock or a full stock from the items at the start of the match allowed ZSS to threaten a time win condition for the rest of the game. Very few of her matches ever went to time, though, since an opponent down by an entire stock was forced into approaching and usually getting annihilated as a result, since approaching in Brawl was so hard.

Overall, I definitely like the current iteration of ZSS best of all, and I think she's one of the most unique and well-made characters that the franchise has ever seen. It's the sole reason that I played her for about a year.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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This everyone feels so the same business really seems to ignore the intricacies of the game and fighters. If you want to be vague enough, everyone has the same game plan: take stocks and win. Even with the same general playstyle, they require different timing, moves to be used, moves to not be used, they likely have different disadvantage states, recoveries, movement specs. Now, some may be closer than others, and that generally doesn't count echoes (though they can still differ somewhat), but they are hardly mostly the same. Some top players may even play a fighter differently than another top player depending on the fighter.

Not to mention that we can have different playstyles being added later to the game with new characters or get better realised playstyles from old characters with patches or new games.

Like how roy can finally play like he was supposed since melee, other veteran characters like bowser, zelda, and link being fully realised and not 2 or 3 decent tools attached to a body.
 

Arthur97

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Well, under these vague titles, I doubt a wholly new playstyle will be added. Zoners will still be called zoners, rushdowns will still be rushdowns, and if its Fire Emblem, there's a ludicrously high likelihood they'll be called a Marth. I seriously don't like the idea that swords instantly mean bad either. My most wanted fighter for pass 2 uses swords, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't or couldn't be very unique. The Smash community seems to have a problem with generalizations. However, it has somewhat recently came to my attention that this is apparently not just with sword users (though, let's be honest, Fire Emblem sword users; not even sure if it's really the swords).
 
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The_Bookworm

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I see what you're saying, but I still disagree.

ZSS still has one of the craziest advantage states in the game, so that hasn't really changed. Approaching ZSS wrong hurts in this game too.

As for how they play the neutral, Brawl ZSS lived in a world where even the fastest of hitboxes were getting punished with a buffering system that rewarded your reaction time. ZSS side-b and grab were regularly getting avoided, and after an initial rise to top tier post-Apex2012, perceptions of ZSS fell off pretty harshly (she never won a big tournament again).

Brawl was also a game of intense microspacing, not like the set-distance dashing we have in this game. Meta Knight f-tilts were regularly getting punished by pristine spaced d-tilts in the ditto.

In that environment, ZSS had to play that defensively, because her hitboxes weren't good enough for anything else.

No one's hitboxes really were good enough for anything else, to be fair, besides Nairo's Meta Knight (which, if I had to guess, would have paved the way for lots of similarly aggressive styles if the game had any kind of future, but since the game didn't continue that didn't happen).

On the note of Nairo, it's worth mentioning that there was also a very distinctly human element in the mix here--Salem pioneered Brawl ZSS neutral, and Salem, as we all know, loves defensive neutral.

Nairo, on the other hand, pioneered the neutral for S4 ZSS, and it looks very very grab-read-heavy as a consequence. If you watch Marss' S4 ZSS, you'll notice that it looks absolutely nothing like Nairo's--way fewer grab reads and way more empty jump movements, like you see with Marss' Ultimate ZSS.

Marss' style of ZSS in S4 was sub-optimal, but ZSS in the transition lost many of the the tools that favored Nairo's style and gained a bunch of tools that favored Marss' style. Had Nairo not existed in S4, you likely would have thought of S4 ZSS quite differently from the current grab-centric up-air up-b fiend that you likely picture in your head, although you'd also probably think of her as a bit worse, too.

Ultimate ZSS' hitboxes are overall better, but, just like S4 ZSS before her and Brawl ZSS before her, she still can't space them that easily (besides z-air) in neutral. At this point it's clearly an explicit design decision. Because she doesn't have a tomahawk option, it's very easy to anti-air ZSS, and once you, as the ZSS player, start getting anti-aired out of shield, you have to start playing grounded.

Grounded ZSS gets almost all of her reward from tech chases (meaning that nothing is guaranteed), and those start almost exclusively from grab whiff punishes. It's no coincidence that they gave ZSS the best initial dash in the game going into Ultimate--her ability to dash back out of your midrange burst range and then grab you for using that option is almost unparalleled.

Then, once she starts getting tech chases from grabbing, the opponent is going to start choosing options like dash in -> jump aerial to catch her dash back. This opens up the opponent for getting hit by n-airs, z-airs, and up-airs and the reward that we all know ZSS for.

The full picture is that ZSS is playing a grounded whiff punishing game to condition you into letting her play an air spacing game. It's like she switches from Sheik to Marth and back from Marth to Sheik when she's playing neutral. No other character really has this design, even others with tethers capable of whiff punishing (e.g., Samus, who bases her neutral on Charge Shot mixups and anti-airs).

The ZSS that you describe sounds more like a traditional zoner like Ultimate Pacman (baiting you into getting hit by fruit, in this case, which can lead to obscene reward). The items were the most unique thing about the character, at least from my perspective. Getting half a stock or a full stock from the items at the start of the match allowed ZSS to threaten a time win condition for the rest of the game. Very few of her matches ever went to time, though, since an opponent down by an entire stock was forced into approaching and usually getting annihilated as a result, since approaching in Brawl was so hard.

Overall, I definitely like the current iteration of ZSS best of all, and I think she's one of the most unique and well-made characters that the franchise has ever seen. It's the sole reason that I played her for about a year.
Nice analysis on ZSS' evolution in terms of her archtype and playstyle. I like how ZSS has been high/top tier in pretty much every single Smash game she has showed up in. The character is simply fundamentally very solid. Even in PM she is seen as a very solid character (SSF2 ZSS cries in the corner).

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However, I want to talk about a character that I feel got the opposite treatment going into Ultimate: :ultike:.
Ike feels very... bland and made very homologous in comparison to everyone else.

:ike: felt like a proper "heavy" sword character, which is the intention of his character design (in Smash anyways). Packing both power and range with his moves. His frame data is overall very lacking, especially in the air, but on the ground he has access to a few quick options. There is, of course, his jab, a tool that allows him to help out compensate for his slow frame data and cement himself as a heavy sword character. He might've end up as a mere mid tier, but he felt unique. That is an overall thing I like about Brawl, a lot of the case felt unique from eachother, and characters that cloned in Melee are either decloned or are not in the game.
:4myfriends: feels like the middle ground between Brawl and Ultimate Ike: made less of a "heavy" sword character but still have many of the "heavy" traits the character has. Instead of jab, which is still a solid tool albeit not as ridiculous, it is now relegated to forward air. He is faster all-around in the ground and in terms of frame data, but not quite "fast". He is also a, low-key, grappler, with considerable reward from grabbing the opponent. He is, again, a mere mid tier, but he still feels distinct from everyone else.
:ultike: now with Ultimate Ike, he is built to be noticeably less of a tank-power sword character (at least in comparison to Brawl and SSB4 Ike), and more like the other FE cast (particularly with Marthcina and Corrin). Forward air got nerfed pretty badly. Jab is less safe. Power of some of his moves like up tilt and forward air is nerfed. What peeves me the most is that they would change his up air, which is an already unique move in itself, to be similar to all the other FE characters (until Byleth came out with his own unique up air, but that only adds salt to the wound). His playstyle is all about throwing out fast neutral airs and then comboing into it. He is not similar enough to be considered "another Marth", but is tethering in the edge towards that now. While this is probably his best iteration and got a lot of hype in the beginning, things are looking like that he is mid tier once again in the current metagame.

Ryo actually initially didn't main Ike at first during the beginning duration of the game because he didn't quite like how Ike plays in Ultimate, despite him saying that at the peak of Ike's popularity in the metagame.

What I am meaning to say is that I when looking back at it, I am a little upset that they would change Ike the way they did, instead of building up on what they already established with Brawl or even SSB4 Ike. Then again, I play plenty of SSB4 Ike myself.

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Here is something off-topic:
It took us 9 months, but we finally got stock icons of :ulthero3::ulthero4::ulthero2:. All that is left is AC Cloud and Female Byleth.
 
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