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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    584

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
:ultlink: has fallen down a little bit lately, now being ranked at 35th. T not being the most consistent tournament attendee is definitely a big cause of this
I suspect this will ultimately happen to Adult Link as is. Without T, :ultlink: is kind of a dead character. I mean shoot, Japan thinks Adult Link is the best of the Links nevermind having a spot in high tier. But despite that, I think he'll eventually fall off because seemingly no notable player wants to really use him aside from T. Idk if it's because people find him too difficult or what but records show other players not performing too well with him.

Does anyone suspect that any other perceived high or top tier characters will fall off at all?
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,887
Location
Colorado
I suspect this will ultimately happen to Adult Link as is. Without T, :ultlink: is kind of a dead character. I mean shoot, Japan thinks Adult Link is the best of the Links nevermind having a spot in high tier. But despite that, I think he'll eventually fall off because seemingly no notable player wants to really use him aside from T. Idk if it's because people find him too difficult or what but records show other players not performing too well with him.

Does anyone suspect that any other perceived high or top tier characters will fall off at all?
I think Link's one of a handful of characters who are good but largely carried by one exceptionally good player. G&W I consider another. If Maister suddenly stopped competing his results would drop off just like Ike's. Compare this to Snake who lost Ally and still managed to to get 3rd on Orion Stats. Or Wolf who lost players like Zackray yet is 2nd. Actual top tiers have staying power and wide player bases.
 

BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
Unordered tier list. Feel free to post criticism, questions, or comments. Just establishing my personal opinions seeing as how the metagame is going to be in a slow period for the next few weeks.
Top tier (amazing, high potential, great results, might need slight nerfs): :ultfox:,:ultgreninja:,:ultinkling:,:ultjoker:,:ultmario:,:ultlucina:,:ultmegaman:,:ultgnw:,:ultolimar:,:ultpacman:,:ultpalutena:,:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:,:ultpichu:,:ultpikachu:,:ultpokemontrainer:(:ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard:),:ultrob:,:ultroy:,:ultchrom:,:ultshulk:,:ultsnake:,:ultwario:,:ultwolf:,:ultzss:
High tier (great, high potential, good results, doesn't need to be buffed, maybe needs some fixes): :ultbowser:,:ultcloud:,:ultdiddy:,:ultlink:,:ultluigi:,:ultmarth:,:ultness:,:ultrosalina:,:ultryu:,:ultken:,:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:,:ultsonic:,:ult_terry:,:ulttoonlink:,:ultyoshi:,:ultyounglink:
Mid tier (good, has potential, decent results, could use minor buffs): :ultbanjokazooie:,:ultbyleth:,:ultfalcon:,:ultduckhunt:,:ultfalco:,:ulticeclimbers:,:ultike:,:ultkirby:,:ultlucas:,:ultmetaknight:,:ultbrawler:,:ultridley:,:ultrobin:,:ultsheik:,:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:,:ultvillager:,:ultwiifittrainer:,:ultzelda:
Low tier (ok(ish), has potential, some results, needs moderate buffs): :ultbowserjr:,:ultdk:,:ulthero:,:ultincineroar:,:ultlucario:,:ultkingdedede:,:ultmewtwo:,:ultgunner:,:ultswordfighter:,:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:
Bottom tier (bad, needs major buffs, little results): :ultbayonetta:,:ultcorrin:,:ultganondorf:,:ultisabelle:,:ultjigglypuff:,:ultkrool:,:ultlittlemac:,:ultpiranha:
 
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TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
Unordered tier list. Feel free to post criticism, questions, or comments. Just establishing my personal opinions seeing as how the metagame is going to be in a slow period for the next few weeks.
Top tier (amazing, high potential, great results, might need slight nerfs): :ultfox:,:ultgreninja:,:ultinkling:,:ultjoker:,:ultmario:,:ultlucina:,:ultmegaman:,:ultgnw:,:ultolimar:,:ultpacman:,:ultpalutena:,:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:,:ultpichu:,:ultpikachu:,:ultpokemontrainer:(:ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard:),:ultrob:,:ultroy:,:ultchrom:,:ultshulk:,:ultsnake:,:ultwario:,:ultwolf:,:ultzss:
High tier (great, high potential, good results, doesn't need to be buffed, maybe needs some fixes): :ultbowser:,:ultcloud:,:ultdiddy:,:ultlink:,:ultluigi:,:ultmarth:,:ultness:,:ultrosalina:,:ultryu:,:ultken:,:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:,:ultsheik:,:ultsonic:,:ult_terry:,:ulttoonlink:,:ultyoshi:,:ultyounglink:
Mid tier (good, has potential, decent results, could use minor buffs): :ultbanjokazooie:,:ultbyleth:,:ultfalcon:,:ultduckhunt:,:ultfalco:,:ulticeclimbers:,:ultike:,:ultlucario:,:ultlucas:,:ultmetaknight:,:ultridley:,:ultrobin:,:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:,:ultvillager:,:ultwiifittrainer:,:ultzelda:
Low tier (ok(ish), has potential, some results, needs moderate buffs): :ultbowserjr:,:ultdk:,:ulthero:,:ultincineroar:,:ultkingdedede:,:ultkirby:,:ultmewtwo:,:ultbrawler:,:ultgunner:,:ultswordfighter:,:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:
Bottom tier (bad, needs major buffs, little results): :ultbayonetta:,:ultcorrin:,:ultganondorf:,:ultisabelle:,:ultjigglypuff:,:ultkrool:,:ultlittlemac:,:ultpiranha:
Could you explain to me what exactly makes Brawler so bad in your opinion, I'm curious considering the public opinion of the character is more positive in terms of viability recently.
 

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
I think Link's one of a handful of characters who are good but largely carried by one exceptionally good player. G&W I consider another. If Maister suddenly stopped competing his results would drop off just like Ike's. Compare this to Snake who lost Ally and still managed to to get 3rd on Orion Stats. Or Wolf who lost players like Zackray yet is 2nd. Actual top tiers have staying power and wide player bases.
Ironically, I think as he is now, Link could still be a solid High Tier character. Maybe not based on results but based on function. We've seen what a true top level player can actually do with him. But it won't matter when he finally loses all recognition. He severely lacks hype right now.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
I suspect this will ultimately happen to Adult Link as is. Without T, :ultlink: is kind of a dead character. I mean shoot, Japan thinks Adult Link is the best of the Links nevermind having a spot in high tier. But despite that, I think he'll eventually fall off because seemingly no notable player wants to really use him aside from T. Idk if it's because people find him too difficult or what but records show other players not performing too well with him.

Does anyone suspect that any other perceived high or top tier characters will fall off at all?
:ultrob: probably will. Like :rob: and :4rob:, people will start to figure out how to work around his advantage state and learn how to abuse his disadvantage state better.

:ultbowser: might fall off as well, but he has the benefit of being easier to pick up and learn as well as having better overall movement than R.O.B (in a game where having good movement is important), so he might not fall off (or if he does, not as hard).

Edit: Might as well do an unordered tier list as well:

Top Tier (can place high at majors, solo-mainable): :ultfox::ultjoker::ultgnw::ultpacman::ultpalutena::ultpeach::ultpikachu::ultpokemontrainer::ultroy::ultchrom::ultshulk::ultsnake::ultmario::ultwario::ultwolf::ultzss::ultlucina:

Possibly Top Tier? :ultrob::ultyounglink::ultgreninja:

High Tier (can place high at majors, most likely solo-viable, but much harder to place consistently with, can work even better with a secondary): :ultbowser::ultcloud::ultdiddy::ultinkling::ultlink::ultluigi::ultmegaman::ultolimar::ultpichu::ultken::ultsonic::ulttoonlink::ultyoshi:

Low High Tier/High Mid Tier (can place highly at majors, but secondary heavily recommended for a few MUs): :ultlucas::ultness::ultduckhunt::ultfalco::ultike::ultmarth::ultgunner::ultrosalina::ultryu::ultsamus::ultsheik::ult_terry::ultvillager::ultwiifittrainer::ultzelda::ultbanjokazooie:

Mid Tier (can work well with a strong secondary or as a secondary to a better character, could use some buffs): :ultbowserjr::ultdk::ultdoc::ultjigglypuff::ultkirby::ultkingdedede::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultbrawler::ultswordfighter::ultpiranha::ultrobin::ultbyleth::ultsimon:

IMO, this character is Low Tier with average RNG, but the fact that he can get lucky which can change some MUs entirely (example: bounce against Olimar) means I'm going to mention him separately (I don't think he needs to be buffed/nerfed either though): :ulthero:

Low Tier (need some help/have character issues that hold them back from reaching their strongest potential, could use some buffs): :ulticeclimbers: (might not be this bad, they are hard to rank) :ultcorrin::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultbayonetta::ultlucario::ultganondorf::ultincineroar::ultkrool:

Send Help Please: :ultlittlemac::ultisabelle:
 
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BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
Could you explain to me what exactly makes Brawler so bad in your opinion, I'm curious considering the public opinion of the character is more positive in terms of viability recently.
I should’ve put him in mid tier. That was a mistake. I just clicked all three Miis when I got to low tier and didn’t think about it at all, it was pretty late at night for me. Imma edit that.

Edit: Oh, and I’m gonna shift around one or two other characters too.
Top tier (amazing, high potential, great results, might need slight nerfs): :ultfox:,:ultgreninja:,:ultinkling:,:ultjoker:,:ultmario:,:ultlucina:,:ultmegaman:,:ultgnw:,:ultolimar:,:ultpacman:,:ultpalutena:,:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:,:ultpichu:,:ultpikachu:,:ultpokemontrainer:(:ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard:),:ultrob:,:ultroy:,:ultchrom:,:ultshulk:,:ultsnake:,:ultwario:,:ultwolf:,:ultzss:
High tier (great, high potential, good results, doesn't need to be buffed, maybe needs some fixes): :ultbowser:,:ultcloud:,:ultdiddy:,:ultlink:,:ultluigi:,:ultmarth:,:ultness:,:ultrosalina:,:ultryu:,:ultken:,:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:,:ultsonic:,:ult_terry:,:ulttoonlink:,:ultyoshi:,:ultyounglink:
Mid tier (good, has potential, decent results, could use minor buffs): :ultbanjokazooie:,:ultbyleth:,:ultfalcon:,:ultduckhunt:,:ultfalco:,:ulticeclimbers:,:ultike:,:ultkirby:,:ultlucas:,:ultmetaknight:,:ultbrawler:,:ultridley:,:ultrobin:,:ultsheik:,:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:,:ultvillager:,:ultwiifittrainer:,:ultzelda:
Low tier (ok(ish), has potential, some results, needs moderate buffs): :ultbowserjr:,:ultdk:,:ulthero:,:ultincineroar:,:ultlucario:,:ultkingdedede:,:ultmewtwo:,:ultgunner:,:ultswordfighter:,:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:
Bottom tier (bad, needs major buffs, little results): :ultbayonetta:,:ultcorrin:,:ultdoc:,:ultganondorf:,:ultisabelle:,:ultjigglypuff:,:ultkrool:,:ultlittlemac:,:ultpiranha:
 
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Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,336
To this day, I still think it's hilariously ironic how much I trash talked Pichu when Ultimate first came out.

My friends: "Hey, should I try Pichu? You think he's any good?"

Me: "Him? Nah, man. He's got no reach with those stubby limbs, he's the lightest character in the game, and on top of everything else, he hurts himself with his own attacks! Why not just play the non-crappy version of Pikachu."

Then weeks later, Pichu starts dominating tournaments left and right, getting declared one of the top characters by almost all the pros...

Still can't believe how some characters can look so bad on paper and still be amazing.
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Re: Pichu. Advantage state will carry you pretty damn far!


Re: Bowser... honestly, I think his 'falling off' already happened. Like other heavies, the biggest struggle isn't results across all levels so much as top top level results. Bowser had some upsets but (outside maybe japan) Bowser upsets on top players don't seem to be happening as much. I do think he is still solid, just that every neutral optimization hurts him, and as people get more comfortable experimenting with their advantage state it is more and more likely that he himself is susceptible to character specific things you have that do more damage, sometimes to the point of reducing the heavy advantage significantly.
 

Kiligar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Messages
269
I’ll repeat it again:Young Link is top tier. His damage output is bonkers and now he can kill. This character is stiflingly oppressive. A busted zoner in that once you get close range he has ridiculous frame data, breaking the archetype of zoners.

https://youtu.be/gbclbh8XDww
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,195
Unordered tier list. Feel free to post criticism, questions, or comments. Just establishing my personal opinions seeing as how the metagame is going to be in a slow period for the next few weeks.
Top tier (amazing, high potential, great results, might need slight nerfs): :ultfox:,:ultgreninja:,:ultinkling:,:ultjoker:,:ultmario:,:ultlucina:,:ultmegaman:,:ultgnw:,:ultolimar:,:ultpacman:,:ultpalutena:,:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:,:ultpichu:,:ultpikachu:,:ultpokemontrainer:(:ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard:),:ultrob:,:ultroy:,:ultchrom:,:ultshulk:,:ultsnake:,:ultwario:,:ultwolf:,:ultzss:
High tier (great, high potential, good results, doesn't need to be buffed, maybe needs some fixes): :ultbowser:,:ultcloud:,:ultdiddy:,:ultlink:,:ultluigi:,:ultmarth:,:ultness:,:ultrosalina:,:ultryu:,:ultken:,:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:,:ultsonic:,:ult_terry:,:ulttoonlink:,:ultyoshi:,:ultyounglink:
Mid tier (good, has potential, decent results, could use minor buffs): :ultbanjokazooie:,:ultbyleth:,:ultfalcon:,:ultduckhunt:,:ultfalco:,:ulticeclimbers:,:ultike:,:ultkirby:,:ultlucas:,:ultmetaknight:,:ultbrawler:,:ultridley:,:ultrobin:,:ultsheik:,:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:,:ultvillager:,:ultwiifittrainer:,:ultzelda:
Low tier (ok(ish), has potential, some results, needs moderate buffs): :ultbowserjr:,:ultdk:,:ulthero:,:ultincineroar:,:ultlucario:,:ultkingdedede:,:ultmewtwo:,:ultgunner:,:ultswordfighter:,:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:
Bottom tier (bad, needs major buffs, little results): :ultbayonetta:,:ultcorrin:,:ultganondorf:,:ultisabelle:,:ultjigglypuff:,:ultkrool:,:ultlittlemac:,:ultpiranha:
Seems about right, although I would personally put Kirby and the Belmonts in low tier. They are definitely not bad, but they don't quite have the results and strengths of the other mid tiered characters.

Part of me also wants Mii Brawler and especially Ice Climbers in the low tier as well, but I do hear some nice counterarguments against that, so I will leave that up to you.

You also forgot to rank Dr. Mario (who I am assuming is going to be in the low/bottom tiers).
:ultrob: probably will. Like :rob: and :4rob:, people will start to figure out how to work around his advantage state and learn how to abuse his disadvantage state better.
The thing is that you are far from the first person in this thread that has said that.

However, as many in this thread (and outside of that) keeps saying that, R.O.B. keeps getting stronger and stronger results, to the point where he is one of the strongest characters in the game in terms of results.
This is the polar-opposite effect of his previous incarnations, who keeps dropping off overtime (:rob: went from top to mid tier, :4rob: went from high to mid tier).

So why are things so different for R.O.B. this time around?

Well one thing to look is his neutral game and advantage state. In terms of neutral game, he has two really good projectiles to work with, and strong walling abilities with his A button moves, mostly down tilt and neutral air. However, that is nothing too unusual for R.O.B.
His advantage state in this game, however, is absurd. 0-death capabilities out of a single conversion, strong ledgetrapping capabilities, have tools to edgeguard the opponent (down air and side B), and the ability to juggle effectively with upward tossed Gyros and up airs.

However, we all know about how ridiculously good R.O.B.'s advantage and neutral game is. The main thing that causes some players in this thread to doubt R.O.B. holding on to his place in the top tiers is his disadvantage state.
I'd admit, being big body and not super-heavyweight weight are not ideal attributes. Certain characters not in the top/high tiers, such as Sheik and Bayonetta, can easily abuse this.

However, some things that people overlook is that R.O.B. has numerous options in getting out of disadvantage. You are off-stage or near the top blastzone? You can stall with up B and back airs to keep the opponent guessing. You are above the opponent trying to land? You can mix-up the opponent juggling you with up B and neutral air. You are trying to recover back on-stage? You can use the aforementioned up B and back air stalling, in addition of using your projectiles to cover you.

What separates the top R.O.B. players and lower-level ones is not only utilizing his crazy advantage state to the fullest, but also knowing how to your options to get of disadvantage to the fullest. This is what makes R.O.B. players like WaDi, Raffi-X, Epic_Gabriel, Grayson, Zackray, etc. so consistently successful in the metagame. His disadvantage is no doubt a weakness, but it is not as bad as some people say, and is definitely something that is overshadowed by the character's numerous other strengths.

R.O.B. is currently the shining example of a character that has a large playerbase that has obtained strong results from more than one top user of that said character. We saw players like WaDi, Raffi-X, and Zackray getting top 8 in majors with the character. This is different from Wolf, who while a great character in his own right, his results mostly come from how ridiculously popular he is in lower-levels of play. The way things are projecting right now, R.O.B. is looking like a top 10 character.

I’ll repeat it again:Young Link is top tier. His damage output is bonkers and now he can kill. This character is stiflingly oppressive. A busted zoner in that once you get close range he has ridiculous frame data, breaking the archetype of zoners.
YLink is definitely high tier in the current moment, but he is not top tier. His KO issues, while better, can still be inconsistent, while also being a light character himself. He is also plagued by having probably the shortest overall range for a sword character, alongside Mii Sword, in the game, being shorter than some brawler-archetype characters. It is somewhat compensated by his projectiles and good air mobility, but is still a notable weakness regardless.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Unofficial scrubby user tier lists?
In this topic?
Well, why not, I think most tier-lists looks fairly similar at this point.
S+ (ordered)::ultzss::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultjoker:
S: :ultroy::ultshulk::ultwario::ultmario::ultlucina::ultrob::ultpalutena::ultwolf::ultfox::ultchrom::ultgnw::ultsnake::ultpacman::ultpikachu:
A: :ultyounglink::ultcloud::ultolimar::ultgreninja::ultinkling::ultyoshi::ult_terry::ultryu::ultken::ultpichu::ultpokemontrainerf::ultmegaman::ultdiddy::ultsonic:
B: :ultrosalina::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ulttoonlink::ultlink::ultness::ultzelda::ultsheik::ultbowser::ultluigi::ultduckhunt::ultwiifittrainer::ultfalco:
C: :ultrobinf::ulthero::ultbanjokazooie::ultike::ultfalcon::ultridley::ultbyleth::ultbowserjr::ultdk::ultmarth::ultsimon::ultrichter::ulticeclimbers:
D: :ultkirby::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultlucario::ultkingdedede::ultincineroar::ultbayonetta:
E (ordered): :ultlittlemac::ultcorrinf::ultkrool::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultganondorf:

Making such things is actually really though, especially in the ordered parts. Not so much in the upper tiers but the lower-tiers are really hard to do because there is still a "random" placement that comes to mind but these are really limited. So I just discarded the "ordered" part for the majority and only did it for the highest and lowest tier.
Anyway, I think we have more decent to good characters than bad characters (starting at D-tier).
And yeah, S+ may sound odd but I think it's even more odd to call someone like Wario an A-tier character then.







Something less fun, so back to "serious" business:
SmashResultsEU made a list of its 50th best players in Europe (Europe Smash Ranking):

Top 10 in more details as some secondaries aren't shown but every player's card can be seen at the Twitter account above:
1. Glutonny :ultwario::substitute:
2. quiK :ultsamus::ultzss:
3. Space :ultinkling:
4. Mr. R :ultchrom::ultyounglink::ultsheik:
5. Meru :ultpeach::ultzelda:
6. S1 :ultness::ultpikachu::ultwolf:
7. Oryon :ultwolf:
8. Flow :ultroy::ultchrom::ultjoker:
9. Light :ultpalutena::ultsheik:
10. Homika :ultrosalina::ultpikachu:
 
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Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,336
Unofficial scrubby user tier lists?
In this topic?
Well, why not, I think most tier-lists looks fairly similar at this point.
S+ (ordered)::ultzss::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultjoker:
S: :ultroy::ultshulk::ultwario::ultmario::ultlucina::ultrob::ultpalutena::ultwolf::ultfox::ultchrom::ultgnw::ultsnake::ultpacman::ultpikachu:
A: :ultyounglink::ultcloud::ultolimar::ultgreninja::ultinkling::ultyoshi::ult_terry::ultryu::ultken::ultpichu::ultpokemontrainerf::ultmegaman::ultdiddy::ultsonic:
B: :ultrosalina::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ulttoonlink::ultlink::ultness::ultzelda::ultsheik::ultbowser::ultluigi::ultduckhunt::ultwiifittrainer::ultfalco:
C: :ultrobinf::ulthero::ultbanjokazooie::ultike::ultfalcon::ultridley::ultbyleth::ultbowserjr::ultdk::ultmarth::ultsimon::ultrichter::ulticeclimbers:
D: :ultkirby::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultlucario::ultkingdedede::ultincineroar::ultbayonetta:
E (ordered): :ultlittlemac::ultcorrinf::ultkrool::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultganondorf:

Making such things is actually really though, especially in the ordered parts. Not so much in the upper tiers but the lower-tiers are really hard to do because there is still a "random" placement that comes to mind but these are really limited. So I just discarded the "ordered" part for the majority and only did it for the highest and lowest tier.
Anyway, I think we have more decent to good characters than bad characters (starting at D-tier).
And yeah, S+ may sound odd but I think it's even more odd to call someone like Wario an A-tier character then.







Something less fun, so back to "serious" business:
SmashResultsEU made a list of its 50th best players in Europe (Europe Smash Ranking):

Top 10 in more details as some secondaries aren't shown but every player's card can be seen at the Twitter account above:
1. Glutonny :ultwario::substitute:
2. quiK :ultsamus::ultzss:
3. Space :ultinkling:
4. Mr. R :ultchrom::ultyounglink::ultsheik:
5. Meru :ultpeach::ultzelda:
6. S1 :ultness::ultpikachu::ultwolf:
7. Oryon :ultwolf:
8. Flow :ultroy::ultchrom::ultjoker:
9. Light :ultpalutena::ultsheik:
10. Homika :ultrosalina::ultpikachu:
Good to see my boy :ultgreninja: getting lots of representation. He may not be top 5 in the game, but holy hell is he fun to play and awesome to watch.
 

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
I’ll repeat it again:Young Link is top tier. His damage output is bonkers and now he can kill. This character is stiflingly oppressive. A busted zoner in that once you get close range he has ridiculous frame data, breaking the archetype of zoners.

https://youtu.be/gbclbh8XDww
Nah, I mean Young Link is an easy high tier now but unless I see players repeatedly taking or at least coming VERY close to taking majors with him, then I can't give him the spot yet. Personally, I think these buffs were needed to actually make him a solid high tier character.

People seem to forget his consistency still puts his entire kit in check. Like the other 2 Links, he excels in certain areas while functioning poorly in other areas. He can zone good, his combo game is fantastic, he's got good frame data, but his melee range blows, he's very light, and despite the buffs STILL has trouble securing kills, which can be a huge issue.

That's why many tier lists have all 3 Links in high, or in TL's case, close to high tier in some kind of order, usually with differing opinions on which one is best. Because they all have great qualities with a couple weaknesses that hold them down from being Top Tier. For instance, in the west, Young Link is seen as the superior. In Japan, Adult Link is currently the superior while Young Link is seen as the worst.
 
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Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,236
Location
Sweden
There was a problem fetching the tweet

Cosmos Corrin MU chart. People saying Corrin is good because Cosmos beat Dabuz, well... Apparently she wins versus Rosalina and goes even versus Olimar. If you look at the rest of the MU chart it's pretty clear that she's a bad character, with Big Disadvantage against some of the best characters in the game, and Slight Disadvantage against pretty much every other meta relevant characters. If Dabuz had kept his Palutena fresh I don't think Cosmos would've had done nearly as well with Corrin.

I also think Cosmos is a bit too optimistic here, I don't think Corrin wins against some of these characters, like Samus or Bowser. Bad character, anyway.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Corrin wins against Samus, Zelda, Ness, Bowser? Toon-Link is also weird too see in losing-
I don't see how. All these characters have either a wall of projectiles Corrins is too slow to get through and Ness has high momentum shifts with PK Magnet that even Shulk has trouble keeping up with. Range is one thing but the lackluster mobility really bites her in these MUs.
I don't even think these are even MUs (quik thinks it might be winning and so does Naskino for Samus and Zelda, Leon thinks it's "wins even more" in his chart). I don't see any recent MU chart for Ness but I have a hard time believing she beats him as well.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,309
Maister's new tier list. I reckon we'll see a lot more matchup charts and tier lists now considering there's not going to be tourney's for a while.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
Maister's new tier list. I reckon we'll see a lot more matchup charts and tier lists now considering there's not going to be tourney's for a while.
IMO, the most interesting take in this list is :ultjigglypuff: being just outside of the Top 30. I think Puff is a bit underrated, probably near the mid to lower end of mid tier rather than low or bottom tier, but High Tier seems a little ridiculous without the results to back it up.

I actually sort of agree with the ranking of :ultfalcon:. I think it's partially influenced by Maister being a :ultgnw: main, but I feel like most characters can abuse Falcon really badly in disadvantage and offstage, something G&W is great at, which is why Maister probably put him that low. That being said, I feel like he probably shouldn't be below characters like :ultincineroar: and :ultcorrin: who share a lot of Falcon's weaknesses (predictable recovery, easy to abuse in disadvantage, combo food) while being slower and having less options overall than him.

:ultwiifittrainer: should be a high tier in theory. She really feels like she is. But there are 5-6 characters that she has flat out terrible matchups against (:ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultfalco::ultisabelle::ultvillager::ultgnw: maybe :ultkirby: as well), so I think that while she is a decent character with strong strengths and a somewhat flexible kit overall, she isn't high tier. I used to think she was, but I'd say high mid tier is a pretty good place for her currently.

I 100% agree with the :ultinkling: placement and would go as far as to say that she is the most overrated character in Ultimate currently. Her aerial game is somewhat lacking, she has trouble scoring kills below 120% to 150% (depending on the character), and is also somewhat susceptible to being pressured in shield thanks to her mediocre OOS options. This character is nowhere near being bad, but the lack of recent results and the issues this character has warrant her being that low IMO.
 
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Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Corrin wins against Samus, Zelda, Ness, Bowser? Toon-Link is also weird too see in losing-
I don't see how. All these characters have either a wall of projectiles Corrins is too slow to get through and Ness has high momentum shifts with PK Magnet that even Shulk has trouble keeping up with. Range is one thing but the lackluster mobility really bites her in these MUs.
I don't even think these are even MUs (quik thinks it might be winning and so does Naskino for Samus and Zelda, Leon thinks it's "wins even more" in his chart). I don't see any recent MU chart for Ness but I have a hard time believing she beats him as well.
It’s not unlikely. In Smash 4 Corrin was Ness’ worst MU due to things like her Nair and Pin two of her main neutral tools being impossible to deal with.

I’ve yet to play a single high level Corrin in this game and I don’t recall seeing any other Ness having played one either. But I can use theory. She still has a lot of her traits that would make it a MU in her favor. Far superior range, good anti airs and good at keeping Ness above her with wide reaching sword moves. But I will say nair isn’t as safe from what I have played against Corrin (or doesn’t appear to be, something is different about it, it’s -7 now and Ness’ fastest OOS is frame 8 so it’s not unlikely Ness couldn’t actually punish it now due to human error.) and Ness can actually punish Corrin for using Pin due to its added lag once she kicks away (which he couldn’t in S4). You don’t really use magnet for baits and movement much against characters with a significant range advantage. They can place hitboxes in the space Ness would usually occupy when using it without much commitment. But Ness just being faster in general in addition to aerial PKF being a thing helps out a lot in his Fire Emblem MUs

(Did you know that due to Aerial PKF having a significant landing lag reduction in Ultimate at 12 frames and it having 9 frames of shield stun (3 added due to shield lag that projectile users don’t suffer) it’s completely possible to have a projectile that is -3 on block depending on when you land after using it? At higher altitudes Ness can get around a -3 to -6 projectile on shields and he can alter the amount of distance he can burst forward using it depending on the frame he inputs it after a DJ) Gackt’s the only one using it like this right now but it’s starting to catch on. (And maybe related but he’s probably the best Ness against his losing MUs.)

So yeah, neutrals really only thing that changed about this MU which is why I can see if being slightly in her favor but I wouldn’t be surprised if someone said it was even. Since neutral was the main reason Ness got beat so badly in this MU the game before.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
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Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,309
IMO, the most interesting take in this list is :ultjigglypuff: being just outside of the Top 30. I think Puff is a bit underrated, probably near the mid to lower end of mid tier rather than low or bottom tier, but High Tier seems a little ridiculous without the results to back it up.
He did fight Hungrybox a bit before he did the list and occasionally Hbox won. In addition Hbox went up against Samsora in a Bo3 at CEO Dreamland and the set was really close. While Maister says he's not taking results into account, I think Hbox doing a lot better now is causing a change in opinion in some players.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,195
Btw, there is a character I want talk about right now, which is :ultswordfighter:.

The character has recently fallen off quite a bit, especially since the release of the game. It seemed to be the mid tier, and easily the best of the three Miis. However as time goes on, the Swordfighter's results and reps have fallen down dramatically, and Mii Brawler is slowly stealing the mid tier spot Mii Sword once had (although that said character is still not quite there yet).

So I did some research, playtesting, and gathering to find out why this character has been falling off the map lately.

As I mentioned earlier when I mentioned Young Link, Mii Sword has one of the shortest reaches of a sword character. However, unlike Young Link, he lacks mobility or frame data to compensate.

Mii Swordfighter has the 64th fastest run speed, and one of the slowest initial dash (not as slow as Mii Gunner, but still slow). It's air acceleration is not too great either, being the 55th-62nd fastest (tied with Young Link interestingly). It's air speed is thankfully much better, being the 18th fastest in the game, which is much faster than Young Link's. However, you will soon learn later that this is overshadowed by numerous other issues in the air.

Its ground moves aren't really anything special, either plagued with laughably short/thin hitboxes, by being sluggish, or both. Down tilt and up tilt are the more interesting ones, but the former has a lot of endlag and comboing off the latter can be awkward sometimes. Up smash seems good, but it has issues hitting low-profile opponents, especially behind it.

Its air moves is where the character truly struggles. On one hand, they seem great! Neutral air covers all around him, forward and up air are two of the only moves that has good hitboxes, and back air seems alright overall as a move.

However, they are plagued by some fatal flaws. Here is one that plagues all of his aerials:
THEY ALL HAVE 10+ FRAMES OF STARTUP!
Neutral and back air is 10 frames. Up air is 11 frames. Forward air is 12 frames. Down air is 14 frames.
At least Shulk has range and Arts to help alleviate his own sluggish startup issues. Mii Swordfighter does not.
  • Neutral air is also plagued by having the hitbox that properly covers on-front and below him appear so slow after the move comes out (which is already slow), combined with it's laughably short reach makes it rather unreliable, especially when compared to Mii Gunner's nair which is Swordfighter's but better.
  • Forward air comes out very slow, has 12 frames of landing lag, and has the unfortunate quality of being a multi-hit aerial (aka it sometimes drops). So despite being one of the only sword buttons from this character that has decent range, it's issues still puts it in disadvantage.
  • Back air is its only good aerial to throw out in the neutral, but it still has short reach and comes out slow.
  • Down air is awful though. It's spike knockback got nerfed heavily from SSB4, and it is very slow as an attack. At least with Kirby's down air, it is fast enough to potentially be used again and is attached to a multi-jump character.
Up air, however, is pretty good, and one of Swordfighter's stand-out moves despite how slow it starts out. However, that is the main issue with Swordfighter: the character is similar to SSB4 Palutena in that the character is a bag of lackluster moves and only abusing a few really good moves. There is up air, and then there is Gale Strike and Chakram.

Speaking of which, there is only one custom set for Mii Swordfighter really worth using: Gale Strike, Chakram, Hero's Spin (sometimes Skyward Slash Dash if you want recovery), Reversal Slash.
All of other Swordfighter custom moves are either lackluster or not worth using in comparison to the ones mentioned above.
Each of these moves are good, but has their flaws.
  • Gale Strike comes out at frame 20 and travels slowly. An easily reactable projectile. It is only threatening at the ledge, because it can hit most characters at the ledge, but with matchup experience can be overcome.
  • Hero's Spin is most Swordfighter's preferred custom move, because it is a kill confirm off of Gale Strike. The issue is that it sometimes randomly fails to connect in the air. Grounded Hero's Spin isn't even that strong (at least in comparison to Link's and TLink's up B). Due to this, and Gale Strike being able to confirm into up air, more and more Swordfighter players (at least the little players I can find) is starting to switch to Skyward Slash Dash, which is a more consistent recovery move, as aerial Hero's Spin is not that good of a recovery move.
  • Chakram is probably Swordfighter's best move, as it can zone with the faraway version and can combo with the close up version. The issue is that shielding the faraway version makes the Chakram stick to the ground for a long time, becoming unavailable until it despawns. The close-up version, after launching forward and returning, stays active for a long time as it moves back, which prevents Swordfighter from being able to use it again until it despawns. Doesn't entirely help that both Chakram and Gale Strike got their range greatly nerfed at patch 1.1.0 (they both used to cover all of Final Destination, but now both only travels half of it) and shield damage nerfed at 3.0.0.
  • Reversal Slash is simply Mario's Cape assigned to a down special. Nothing more, nothing less, which is fine.

This brings up the main issue with Swordfighter once again: it focuses on using a small selection of great moves, which as a result makes the character predictable. The Gale Strike into Hero's Spin combo, once feared in the early days, is now passed on even by some Swordfighter players themselves as a gimmick.

I also found Swordfighter players to be very rare nowadays. Tsu barely plays the character anymore, Anonymous Moniker isn't very active and doesn't too well outside of locals, Pokecheese is even more rare in terms of attendance, and Ntarps dropped him for Simon and Young Link (on top of not being very active). The best Swordfighter has done as far as I can tell is Pokecheese getting 25th at GOML 2019, but that was almost a year ago.

In comparison, Brawler, while being rare itself, has more reps and more results, while Gunner is even more rare but has at least achieved more niche results than Swordfighter. This is reflected in OrionStats right now, as Swordfighter currently has the 3rd worst results out of the entire cast, only having 1 point.

So yeah, today's metagame is not kind to Swordfighter whatsoever, and has joined the Dedede and Belmont school of mid tiers falling off the map.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, I still have no idea why the ICs continue to be this glitchy, especially considering that Brawl ICs doesn't have that many notable glitches with them.
This is 2020 for crying out loud!

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Unofficial scrubby user tier lists?
In this topic?
Well, why not, I think most tier-lists looks fairly similar at this point.
S+ (ordered)::ultzss::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultjoker:
S: :ultroy::ultshulk::ultwario::ultmario::ultlucina::ultrob::ultpalutena::ultwolf::ultfox::ultchrom::ultgnw::ultsnake::ultpacman::ultpikachu:
A: :ultyounglink::ultcloud::ultolimar::ultgreninja::ultinkling::ultyoshi::ult_terry::ultryu::ultken::ultpichu::ultpokemontrainerf::ultmegaman::ultdiddy::ultsonic:
B: :ultrosalina::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ulttoonlink::ultlink::ultness::ultzelda::ultsheik::ultbowser::ultluigi::ultduckhunt::ultwiifittrainer::ultfalco:
C: :ultrobinf::ulthero::ultbanjokazooie::ultike::ultfalcon::ultridley::ultbyleth::ultbowserjr::ultdk::ultmarth::ultsimon::ultrichter::ulticeclimbers:
D: :ultkirby::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultlucario::ultkingdedede::ultincineroar::ultbayonetta:
E (ordered): :ultlittlemac::ultcorrinf::ultkrool::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultganondorf:

Making such things is actually really though, especially in the ordered parts. Not so much in the upper tiers but the lower-tiers are really hard to do because there is still a "random" placement that comes to mind but these are really limited. So I just discarded the "ordered" part for the majority and only did it for the highest and lowest tier.
Anyway, I think we have more decent to good characters than bad characters (starting at D-tier).
And yeah, S+ may sound odd but I think it's even more odd to call someone like Wario an A-tier character then.

Something less fun, so back to "serious" business:
SmashResultsEU made a list of its 50th best players in Europe (Europe Smash Ranking):

Top 10 in more details as some secondaries aren't shown but every player's card can be seen at the Twitter account above:
1. Glutonny :ultwario::substitute:
2. quiK :ultsamus::ultzss:
3. Space :ultinkling:
4. Mr. R :ultchrom::ultyounglink::ultsheik:
5. Meru :ultpeach::ultzelda:
6. S1 :ultness::ultpikachu::ultwolf:
7. Oryon :ultwolf:
8. Flow :ultroy::ultchrom::ultjoker:
9. Light :ultpalutena::ultsheik:
10. Homika :ultrosalina::ultpikachu:
You forgot :ultlucas: in your tier list.

Anyways, it is cool to see the European scene get their PR rankings much earlier in the metagame than they did in SSB4.
It is also kind of amusing that the three top :ultgreninja: players are also ranked directly next to eachother.

Maister's new tier list. I reckon we'll see a lot more matchup charts and tier lists now considering there's not going to be tourney's for a while.
He did say that he ranks them off of what he believes is the character's potential instead of results, so there are some odd placements.

The biggest ones being :ultjigglypuff: in high tier and :ultfalcon: in low tier.
He and ESAM seems to be big believers in Puff's viability despite the character's obvious shortcomings and lack of results.

I actually sort of agree with the ranking of :ultfalcon:. I think it's partially influenced by Maister being a :ultgnw: main, but I feel like most characters can abuse Falcon really badly in disadvantage and offstage, something G&W is great at, which is why Maister probably put him that low. That being said, I feel like he probably shouldn't be below characters like :ultincineroar: and :ultcorrin: who share a lot of Falcon's weaknesses (predictable recovery, easy to abuse in disadvantage, combo food) while being slower and having less options overall than him.
Except Falcon being very abusable in disadvantage has been a character trait of his since his introduction in 64, and his disadvantage was even worse back then. Despite that, Falcon managed to be viable high tiered characters in 64, Melee, and SSB4 despite these shortcomings.

While I don't think Falcon is high tier in this game, having a poor disadvantage alone isn't going to make the character low tier, especially since he still has the mobility, the combo game, and the KO power to help compensate for it.
Definitely not low tier imo, especially since he has some capable results to his credit.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
It figures Maister would put :ultzss: at #1 considering his rough set history vs Marss, and that she is considered by many as possibly G&W's worst matchup
 
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Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
It figures Maister would put :ultzss: at #1 considering his rough set history vs Marss, and that she is considered by many as possibly G&W's worst matchup
Looking at ZSS framedata and range and kill confirms, I don't see any other contender for being best in the game.
If they somehow nerf boost kick then maybe not but this sh't still kills way too early.
 

BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
Looking at ZSS framedata and range and kill confirms, I don't see any other contender for being best in the game.
If they somehow nerf boost kick then maybe not but this sh't still kills way too early.
Ridiculous character. Everything is well rounded and fantastic, she has top 5 mobility paired with deadly burst options, tons of easy and early kill confirms, many disjointed attacks, absurd safety on aerials, easy disadvantage buttons in flip kick and jab, wild good setups, great framedata and combos, and so much room for optimization. I think that the only other character in contention whatsoever for the number one spot is Joker, and a lot of my faith in him comes purely from the sheer scope of his results. Leo or not, winning 6 S-tiers (Momocon, SNS, EVO, SSC, Kongo Saga, Frostbite), and top placements at many other events is my main support for Joker ATM.
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,336
On the topic of Cosmos' Corrin chart, he also put out a MU chart for the squid and speaking of optimism I'm a bit stumped that he considers the G&W MU slight advantage in Inkling's favor. I'm guessing a combination of G&W being lightweight with mediocre range, and Inkling BAir spacing makes it a more tolerable MU, though I'd still put that at even at best.

I also think he's a bit modest with Joker's placement. That's one of two top tier contenders I feel confident in Inkling holding a slight advantage over.

I 100% agree with the :ultinkling: placement and would go as far as to say that she is the most overrated character in Ultimate currently. Her aerial game is somewhat lacking, she has trouble scoring kills below 120% to 150% (depending on the character), and is also somewhat susceptible to being pressured in shield thanks to her mediocre OOS options. This character is nowhere near being bad, but the lack of recent results and the issues this character has warrant her being that low IMO.
Inkling's aerial game is one of the least lacking things about her. She's got good air speed, good recovery, low landing lag, a BAir only outmatched by Palutena, a FAir that at worst eats recoveries and at best kills off the ledge, and a NAir that doubles as both a combo starter and combo move. It's arguably the linchpin behind her game plan and a major part of the reason she's commonly placed in high/top tier lists. Her killing prowess is in large part reinforced because of those aerials, being able to get large amounts of damage, edgeguards and even carrying opponents into the blast zone with moves that combo into each other is how she endured for a solid year among the characters regularly claimed to be high maintenance for stock taking, and she wouldn't be getting good use out of them if her aerial game was poor.

The only "problem" with her aerial game is that you can't initiate an aerial flurry reliably without a grab or anti-airing, and grabs are generally not strong in Ultimate (despite Inkling being able to hit confirm into them) which is where her lackluster up tilt gets to pay the piper for it. NAir's dubious hitboxes in OoS situations don't serve to undo her aerial prowess much either (though I could illustrate the point by pointing at a certain higher ranked top tier contender who has even worse OoS than Inkling); outside of tepid uses as a counter-juggling tool it still makes up for it in air-to-air engagements. As much as I generally throw around the idea that a hypothetical Inkling buff should start there, trust me when I say you do not want that thing's hitbox to be bigger. (I do though, let chaos reign)
 
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Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
This has varying degrees of accuracy depending on who the player in question is, but a lens I view it through is:


Top tier players rank top tier characters similarly to how we do. Attributes, matchups, etc. Once you break out of the top tiers though, and maybe some high tiers in this game, it is more abstract. Ok, we know this, but from their particular experience most dedicated solo mains are below their skill level, or at least skill + character strengths play out to mostly wins.

So, I view it as 'likelihood this character upsets me in a tournament'.


Think about how highly Zero ranked Ryu. Ryu through a bracket is tough, everyone and their mother knows you are dangerous and you end up chasing them down most of the tournament. It is incredibly hard to be consistent at this. But, say you are Zero. It doesn't matter if it is the first round vs a silent killer, or maybe they did do the difficult task of meeting you later in the tournament. All they have to do is get in a few times. You can play safe, you can play smart, but there are times when it comes down to prediction and habits. If you haven't played this player before it can actually be pretty much impossible to guess what they will do in weird, scramble situations. If anything this makes the bo3 part even scarier earlier in the bracket.


So top players may not see the perspective of a struggling Ken getting through the wall that is lower brackets. what they feel, is the fear. I think this boost is pretty tangible if you look at tier lists over all of the games.

On the converse, shulk gets a boost for a combination of 'wow smash art is terrifying' 'wow I can't do my normal confirms or kill him at all when he is in shield' and nebulous 'potential'.


Shiek would have to outplay you pretty darn consistently. Ken only needs a few good ones. Sure its easier to keep Ken out but the stakes are that much higher. This is scarier. And when you ARE tournament results, upset potential is the result you're aware of.


Just a passing thought in the time of tier lists and self quarantine. Would be a good time for some organizations that are having some trouble to host some (more) online events or something.
 

FruitLoop

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
125
A lot of people have been talking about their tier lists so might as well showcase mines just to sort of see how the meta is going for everyone. My tier list is actually ordered however but the mid tiers are a little more loosely ordered alongside the high tiers but to a lesser extent due to how many chars can classify as mid/high tiers.

EDIT: Just to kind of give some more context of what I look for. I don't directly base character placements via results. I can use results or footage to showcase if a character HAS been shown to be viable in a tournament setting using what we know so far but I can also try to use Orionstats's different seasons to tell if a character has stagnated in results, had generally less and less representation as time went on which could create some inferations (I.E: Ike dropped a ton from Season 1 to Season 2, we can infer that it's not just due to MKLeo dropping him for Joker but it is also due to other characters in the meta showcasing more of their kit in less stagnant ways than Ike which means that he is likely not top 10 anymore).

Generally I base these tiers in a Solo-Viable setting with whether or not a character would make a good secondary not being based around the tier list. I favor weighted matchups a ton when making these tiers while also using a bit of theorycrafting to determine if these traits would be favorable when compared to every other character. This is why I do generally have characters with higher consistencies in higher placements with some exceptiosn due to how they would function in a solo-viable setting. This is also why I place the top of mid tier as the "Borderline" tier as it is where I feel like a character can top 8 an A/S tier or they already have (Duck Hunt for example with Raito at Evo). Generally to progress through higher than a borderline tier I value a lot on how they can deal with characters around high/top tier while also having less of a high standard deviation of having "Very easy to win" matchups vs "Absurdly difficult 70-30" matchups. I do have small exceptions like R.O.B who does tend to have a lot of highly deviating matchups, however with him being #1 on the Orionstats I can infer that these matchups aren't enough to prevent R.O.B from exceeding in top level play, however it's enough to put him in let's say the top of high tier instead of top tier as it means that R.O.B does need to have a certain kind of bracket to get to a great place (It would be a lot more difficult to get a bracket full of Palus and ZSS's if you mained let's say R.O.B instead of Pika, and R.O.B having a higher quantity of bad matchups and bad matchups against more popular characters than just Pika's apparent losing matchups to G&W and Ness would cause his weight matchup spread to be overall worse which dictates where he'd end up on a tier list).

That's sort of how I would put characters together in groupings or tiers and tiers can be subjective due to how nuanced they are, anyways have at it!

download (3).png
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,904
Guys, just ordering characters and posting a static image is valueless. I have no idea what standards you guys are using for your tier lists so these have literally no meaning to me at all--you might as well be speaking a different language.

We need to know:

1) how much you value results. 50%? 70%? None of these tier lists are 100% results; I can tell that from just a simple glance

2) if your tier list differs from results, why do you believe that your opinion is more valuable than OrionStats? What information do you have access to that OrionStats doesn't (could be personal matchup experience, insight based on watching videos where something clicked for you, etc)? Clearly, if you're looking at ROB with a #1 placing on OrionStats and not even placing him in top 5 or top 10 or top 15, then you must believe that you know something that the results don't show. And don't give me "he has bad matchups and bad disadvantage," because that doesn't cut it; you need to go deeper than that.

3) what are the principal criteria you're using for your rankings? Is it number of losing matchups (i.e., solo viability)? Number of winning matchups? Potential as a secondary? And what is the range you're looking at? Potential to top 32 a major? Potential to top 8 a major paired with another character?

Unless you have, at a minimum, these three things in your list, then no one can reasonably offer any insightful comment except "hey your placement of X character differs from the results, that's wrong because AHA HERE IS MY OWN SUBJECTIVE TAKE WHERE X CHARACTER IS ACTUALLY FOUR SPOTS HIGHER, TAKE THAT."

And that's just bad discussion.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Guys, just ordering characters and posting a static image is valueless. I have no idea what standards you guys are using for your tier lists so these have literally no meaning to me at all--you might as well be speaking a different language.

We need to know:

1) how much you value results. 50%? 70%? None of these tier lists are 100% results; I can tell that from just a simple glance

2) if your tier list differs from results, why do you believe that your opinion is more valuable than OrionStats? What information do you have access to that OrionStats doesn't (could be personal matchup experience, insight based on watching videos where something clicked for you, etc)? Clearly, if you're looking at ROB with a #1 placing on OrionStats and not even placing him in top 5 or top 10 or top 15, then you must believe that you know something that the results don't show. And don't give me "he has bad matchups and bad disadvantage," because that doesn't cut it; you need to go deeper than that.

3) what are the principal criteria you're using for your rankings? Is it number of losing matchups (i.e., solo viability)? Number of winning matchups? Potential as a secondary? And what is the range you're looking at? Potential to top 32 a major? Potential to top 8 a major paired with another character?

Unless you have, at a minimum, these three things in your list, then no one can reasonably offer any insightful comment except "hey your placement of X character differs from the results, that's wrong because AHA HERE IS MY OWN SUBJECTIVE TAKE WHERE X CHARACTER IS ACTUALLY FOUR SPOTS HIGHER, TAKE THAT."

And that's just bad discussion.
Guys, just ordering characters and posting a static image is valueless. I have no idea what standards you guys are using for your tier lists so these have literally no meaning to me at all--you might as well be speaking a different language.

We need to know:

1) how much you value results. 50%? 70%? None of these tier lists are 100% results; I can tell that from just a simple glance

2) if your tier list differs from results, why do you believe that your opinion is more valuable than OrionStats? What information do you have access to that OrionStats doesn't (could be personal matchup experience, insight based on watching videos where something clicked for you, etc)? Clearly, if you're looking at ROB with a #1 placing on OrionStats and not even placing him in top 5 or top 10 or top 15, then you must believe that you know something that the results don't show. And don't give me "he has bad matchups and bad disadvantage," because that doesn't cut it; you need to go deeper than that.

3) what are the principal criteria you're using for your rankings? Is it number of losing matchups (i.e., solo viability)? Number of winning matchups? Potential as a secondary? And what is the range you're looking at? Potential to top 32 a major? Potential to top 8 a major paired with another character?

Unless you have, at a minimum, these three things in your list, then no one can reasonably offer any insightful comment except "hey your placement of X character differs from the results, that's wrong because AHA HERE IS MY OWN SUBJECTIVE TAKE WHERE X CHARACTER IS ACTUALLY FOUR SPOTS HIGHER, TAKE THAT."

And that's just bad discussion.
Look, there is nothing to discuss anyway and on the same note I don't know what some top players are thinking when they release their wacky MU charts (like look at Cosmos's charts, especially the Corrin where he put at least three characters as winning and the mains of the other characters think Corrin loses (Samus, Zelda and Bowser).
I don't think posting a tier-list isn't valuable per se but I wouldn't dismiss one as well: There is still stuff to ask, stuff that seems weird to someone (that's why the "I'll answer no questions" attitude of certain players is so bad. Some do that so trolls don't reply but it's just setting a bad discussion standard.

Anyway, stuff like OrionStats only cover so much. Same with the PGR. I can still write an essay as to why bi-weekly with Gluto and Mr. R didn't count while aa tournament in the same country (France) with less players did count. And to my knowledge, OrionStats doesn't seem to count non-pgr events but I could be wrong. So, relying solely on stats ain't do it for me but they're a nice indicator (like, OrionStats is a reason why I don't understand anyone that says that Sheik's much better than Zelda and both have very similar peak results).

However, you're right that a simply list is bad discussion and sets a bad precedent for future discussions.
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,904
Alright, point taken on nothing noteworthy going on.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t post tier lists, just that I don’t understand what your tier lists mean. Everyone (including top players) assumes that the ranking criteria they use is what everyone else uses—and everyone is wrong in making that assumption.

I can see a valid argument for at least 10 different characters being the best in the game, but it all depends on what you mean by “best.” Losing the fewest matchups can be one way to define “best,” but in a game with almost 80 characters does it really matter how many you lose? You can pick up a secondary against which your opponent almost surely doesn’t have much experience due to time limitations.

for example, joker has a really bad matchup vs pichu but mkleo just switches to Lucina for the matchup so in theory it never matters that much (unless the opponent also has a counter for lucina, which can give the opponent a game advantage). So this shows us that in practice having minus 2 matchups isn’t that bad in this game.

You could make similar arguments against any other ranking criteria
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,887
Location
Colorado
I'd post a tier list but with all the balance patches I don't have the proper experience with most of the cast; even after going to weekly tournaments. Top tiers are fairly strait forward but IDK how much better characters like Zelda or Sheik are after the buffs. It's not a stable meta. One thing I can say is the balancing team didn't hold back when it comes to buffs. They looked at each character and gave them what they really needed. "Bad" characters aren't that far from top tiers.
Even characters like :ultganondorf:, who IMO is a contender for worst character in the game, can be dangerous in bracket. Ganon's one of my secondaries and I was using him in friendlies vs an Inkling. He got me to nearly 200% then I made one read, pivoted and Fsmash and killed him at 60%. Ganon's bad but his reward on hit is massive. Speaking of massive, so are his attacks. Nair is really good; I use it for spacing and as a poke. Uair and Dair are like walls offstage. And of course his U and Fsmashes are some of the largest attacks in the game. I don't think Ganon loses any MUs worse than -2 (solid disadvantage but not counterpicked) and doubt there are many, if any, +/-3s in this game. The balance is really good.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
199
I think that examining results on a regional basis could make an interesting discussion like example :ultroy: is very popular on the US, but he is a niche character on japan but why is that?

Another example is how Mexico is full of :ultinkling:  and :ultgnw: even :ulthero: is very a popular secondary option.

Japan has its own share of favoritism like:ultzss: and :ulttoonlink:

Europe is more like the usa were :ultwolf::ultpalutena: are very popular.

Dunno about other regions like korea, or south America but is interesting how some regions can have different metagames based on geographical zones.
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Biggest reason for that is jumpsquat changes. It really was a great equalizer that was long overdue.


Also... grabs being super bad this game I think helps. I'm making presumptions but im guessing a whiffed dashgrab got you that comeback fsmash? As people get better at parrying the grab is pretty tempting to get them off the ground, or to call out shields enough that they stop. As it is now though, you're really taking a big risk... for reward that may or may not be there. I prefer this to the insane dashgrabs of 4 though. Kinda made tethers less of a giant liability too, with safe aerials shieldgrabs aren't really make all in your shielded state.


EDIT: Better at parrying... not sure why I typed people are getting bad at parrying, lol. I think I was thinking of dashgrabs being generally bad in this game.
 
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Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Europe is actually pretty balanced in terms of characters.
I've posted a Tweet listing the 50 best European players and the first ~15 players all have different mains. And then there are three Greninja players in a row. Europe has very high character variance.
A solo Palu in a French/Dutch Top 8 is super rare.
 
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Thinkaman

Moderator
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NNID
Thinkaman
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When there is a famine of data to go off of, it makes very little sense to go zoom out and have cast-wide discussion that is more generalized, more big-picture.

More fitting to zoom in and talk about specific matchup(s). The next post offers a great example:
 

FruitLoop

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
125
DDD is bottom 5 and poopy.

Being a heavy without kill power is quite possibly the most contradictory thing you can do to a character and having the same weaknesses as tranditional heavies outside of having an arguably good recovery is not enough to fix that. This pretty much removes a lot of DDD's "X-Factor" in a lot of matchups and makes his mus way to reliant on a frame 29 projectile move that can be sent back.

DDD having no OoS outside of a frame 12 shieldgrab and frame 17 Up-Smash OoS and a gimmicky frame 10 Nair oos makes matters a lot worse when mixed with his poor CQC (Jab is literally frame 10 and his quickest CQC option is down-tilt at frame 6 which is absurdly unsafe on shield for little reward) makes him extremely vulnerable to rushdown while he has obviously horrid ways with dealing with zoners (Inhale being frame 17 and THAT slow when spitting doesn't help that much vs projectile play if i'm being honest). He over-relies on trying to get the opponent to let him stay above them and he sucks at forcing them to get him to be at that position unless the opponent either doesn't know the matchup or is actively letting him do it. DDD having no approach options means that in a lot of matchups its just the opponent choosing not to approach DDD and just whiff punishing him with horizontal whiff punish tools.

Good ledge trapping or not, I don't see how this char will work in a high level context.

Tl;dr: DDD taught your grandmother to suck eggs and he poisoned our water, burnt our crops, and destroyed our villages despite being a sexy beast. Bottom 5 for sure. Okay thanks for listening to my ted talk and now i'll continue eating glue.
 
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Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Yea, being above DDD is... kinda scary? Not really compared to most characters, and it only gets worse from there. Though he doesn't have the tools, his wins seem to come from clutches where he doesn't ever die then lands a sneak dtilt/grab/gordo reflect war, then when you are on the ledge he is legitimately pretty good. But I think you nailed it, his horizontal spacing is pretty terrible and the more you know his frame data the less scary it is.

He should have terrifying reward off a grab, and if you get grabbed at just the wrong time with a gordo around it can happen... but that is another MU inexperience factor, because 9/10 you are better off safely reflecting the gordo back and just staying out of his range.


...


Greninja is interesting, he has a bit of a blind spot off the ground in front of him. Dtilt and dash attack are really obviously great tools, but they cover the same grounded / 1 ft off the ground area. Someone experienced in the MU knows you have to either take to the air to compete here, which is good but offers slow startup, or start angling ftilts which is good but doesn't have guaranteed reward. DunnoBro DunnoBro made a good point much earlier about Mario's best tilt being ftilt now, purely from popping them into a bad situation. I took that to heart and I will say greninja gets lots of coverage off of this move, and just swatting them away puts you in a position to use DA, dtilt, spaced fairs etc. And discourages jump ins which can be tough with lacklustre OoS and slow air to airs.


RAR bair covers this range but you have to commit. And you lose trades pretty handily, it can stuff them before they attack but if they have a hitbox out you'll probably come out behind. More on this in a second.


An interesting option I've been loving is running reverse u-tilt. It sets up for bair for quite a while, is actually pretty disjointed, and is fairly safe unless they stay grounded.



Greninja's hitboxes are great but he extends his hurtboxes with them. Uair juggling is scary but you can often stuff it with even a modest disjoint. He has to fake you out then whiff punish, if he goes to trade vs a sword he will either lose or trade with a multihit, which... meh. But this has decent timing with the dragdowns, so that is pretty nice if you are sure they will try and trade you down.
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,904
Yea, being above DDD is... kinda scary? Not really compared to most characters, and it only gets worse from there. Though he doesn't have the tools, his wins seem to come from clutches where he doesn't ever die then lands a sneak dtilt/grab/gordo reflect war, then when you are on the ledge he is legitimately pretty good. But I think you nailed it, his horizontal spacing is pretty terrible and the more you know his frame data the less scary it is.

He should have terrifying reward off a grab, and if you get grabbed at just the wrong time with a gordo around it can happen... but that is another MU inexperience factor, because 9/10 you are better off safely reflecting the gordo back and just staying out of his range.


...


Greninja is interesting, he has a bit of a blind spot off the ground in front of him. Dtilt and dash attack are really obviously great tools, but they cover the same grounded / 1 ft off the ground area. Someone experienced in the MU knows you have to either take to the air to compete here, which is good but offers slow startup, or start angling ftilts which is good but doesn't have guaranteed reward. DunnoBro DunnoBro made a good point much earlier about Mario's best tilt being ftilt now, purely from popping them into a bad situation. I took that to heart and I will say greninja gets lots of coverage off of this move, and just swatting them away puts you in a position to use DA, dtilt, spaced fairs etc. And discourages jump ins which can be tough with lacklustre OoS and slow air to airs.


RAR bair covers this range but you have to commit. And you lose trades pretty handily, it can stuff them before they attack but if they have a hitbox out you'll probably come out behind. More on this in a second.


An interesting option I've been loving is running reverse u-tilt. It sets up for bair for quite a while, is actually pretty disjointed, and is fairly safe unless they stay grounded.



Greninja's hitboxes are great but he extends his hurtboxes with them. Uair juggling is scary but you can often stuff it with even a modest disjoint. He has to fake you out then whiff punish, if he goes to trade vs a sword he will either lose or trade with a multihit, which... meh. But this has decent timing with the dragdowns, so that is pretty nice if you are sure they will try and trade you down.

You always have great insights into characters beyond surface level observation. I can tell that you're a pretty good and observant player just from reading your posts, and your use of words like whiff punish, advantage, disadvantage, neutral, etc is really spot on and timely. Thanks for posting man, really a joy to hear from you.
 
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