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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    584

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,198
Here are the PGR events of this weekend.


Codec Call 5 (C Tier) *Spain regional event
1st: S:ultinkling::ultpalutena:
2nd: sisqui:ultdarksamus:
3rd: MVL:ultyounglink:
4th: marcpq:ultinkling:
5th: Vidad:ultrob:
5th: Marc:ultjoker:
7th: Kratogans:ultsnake:
7th: Pocafeiner:ultvillager:


Le Colossel de M3R (C Tier) *France regional event
1st: Glutonny:ultwario::ultgreninja::ultbyleth:
2nd: Leon:ultlucina:
3rd: PeW:ultness:
4th: Flow:ultroy::ultchrom:
5th: Ogey:ultfalcon:
5th: Oryon:ultwolf:
7th: Manda:ultdiddy:
7th: Nin':ultrob:
9th: Tag:ultpalutena::ultluigi:
9th: Jeda:ultlucario::ultjoker:
9th: VinS:ultlink:
9th: ALtek:ultzelda:


SKL: Open Primavera 2020 (C Tier) *Mexican regional event
1st: Meme:ultyoshi:
2nd: Necro:ultmario:
3rd: Vizard:ultdarksamus:
4th: Joker:ultdarksamus:
5th: Rox:ultlucina:
5th: Hitman:ultpacman:
7th: Wonf:ultjoker:
7th: Osuka:ultyoshi:


Save Point: The PA State Championship (C Tier) *Pennsylvania regional event
1st: Toast:ultyounglink:
2nd: Rawk:ultdarksamus:
3rd: Juice:ultgreninja::ultfalco::ultzss:
4th: Midnight:ultpeach::ultrosalina:
5th: Sandstorm:ultryu:
5th: BlazingPasta:ultpeach:
7th: Kenoca:ultryu::ultken:
7th: C-:ultsnake:
9th: sam:ultinkling:
9th: Enzo:ultjoker:
9th: Melon:ultyoshi:
9th: IcyMist:ultsamus:


Phantom 2020 (B Tier) *Big Australia regional event
1st: Dark Wizzy:ultmario:
2nd: Jdizzle:ultyounglink:
3rd: Sriks:ultchrom::ultroy:
4th: Saber:ultchrom:
5th: DD:ultwario:
5th: Extra:ultgnw:
7th: Doctor A Ness:ultdk::ultfox:
7th: SebPro101:ultrob:
9th: RaZe:ultdarkpit::ultlink:
9th: Shmu:ultpikachu:
9th: EmanSaur:ultyoshi:
9th: Purple~H:ultwolf::ultsamus:
13th: Luco:ultness:
13th: Day:ultpikachu:
13th: Joe:ultsnake:
13th: Duon:ultzss:
17th: Bjschoey:ultincineroar:
17th: Ben Gold:ultkrool:
17th: Ghost:ultbrawler:
17th: MasterofDisaster:ultrob:
17th: P9:ultvillager:
17th: Spammage:ulticeclimbers:
17th: Poppt1:ultlucina:
17th: Luma:ultpokemontrainer:
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
Phantom 2020 was a very important tournament because on top of it being a B Tier, the winner would be a secured a spot for Smash Ultimate Summit 3.


Major props to Dark Wizzy for being the first :ultmario: to win a B Tier and being the first qualifier for Summit 3.
 
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Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
This isn't quite a 1-to-1 comparison. Pichu pays a price regardless of whether or not his moves land. K. Rool only pays if he tanks moves with them. The actual application of the armor on moves also varies. Only nair, ftilt, dash attack and maybe dsmash are used to actively challenge moves. The rest use it as a form of safety net. Of the first four, dash attack and dsmash also happen to be powerful kill moves. Decreasing their endlag could be dangerous, especially dsmash which could end up being an obnoxious shield-breaking move. Uair's buffs have nothing to do with how good it is at taking hits. Decreasing endlag is also a blanket statement: wouldn't every character be better with less endlag?

Gut Check also has the unique property of simultaneously reflecting projectiles while triggering it's counter hitbox, deterring angled projectile approaches.
Its not *exactly* the same mechanic, but I feel its a similar design style for a character. Yes Pichu pays a set price hit or miss, but the important factor here is that they are both tasked with deciding if using their best moves repeatedly is worth the cost. K Rool still has to make this choice even if he isn't challenged because using Belly Armor attacks halts the regeneration of the armor. Both characters have scenarios where the cost becomes irrelevant (pichu at high percent no longer needs to worry about putting himself at death's door) and K Rool with unchipped armor can spam freely.

Decreasing endlag would be good for anyone, but I don't personally think its the specific missing ingredient for each bad character to flourish. In fact, most of the characters I find flawed wouldn't be significantly improved by just shaving some endlag off of key moves. Some have really solid frame data, but poor mobility, poor reward on hit, extremely exploitable disadvantage, extreme weakness to platform camping etc. Almost no one has moves like K Rool's Nair, which had a huge change is usability just from shaving 4 frames of landing lag.

IMHO, the fundamental problem with his armor mechanic is that for every single move (except nair now), you can very easily just shield it and OoS, so the armor isn't much of a factor. Dair should have its landing lag cut down similarly to be safe on block. Uair FAF and Landing lag could be cut. Ftilt should be significantly safer on block, either by increasing shield stun or cutting end lag. I don't think his smashes or dash attack are at risk of become too obnoxious from a small end lag reduction, but I was mostly just referring to the tools he would be using to make space in neutral or disadvantage. Dash attack is between -25 and -35 on block, Usmash is -40 to -50, Dsmash -30. Shaving that down a bit would put the end lag more on par with other heavies smashes. I'm not suggesting he get away with mashing the cstick in neutral (we already have a character for that), but just to limit the range of punishes he takes from using these moves. He already has a bonus shield break mechanic, he doesn't need to be subject to the heaviest punish available on these moves too. Just a little would do a lot for him here because all of these moves low profile move than most heavies.

And if the moves are a bit obnoxious, thats not necessarily a bad thing. A move limited by a resource pool should be offering more than a regular one. Roller, Levin Sword, Hero spells, Wonderwing, Arsene, Limit, Pichu etc. all do things that are obnoxious but limited.
 

Cutie Gwen

Lovely warrior
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
63,079
Location
Somewhere out there on this big blue marble
Really though, why should anyone expect the armor to be able to take big moves? Even then, it's a fairly small subset of moves that not everyone has and are not always going to land.
I think the issue's moreso that K.Rool gets punished harder by big moves as a decent amount of moves have armour, meaning getting read can be more punishing than most characters which is a shame because I swear, K.Rool's belly armour had the potential to be an answer to Smash's tradition of combo heavy characters with weaker than average hits by just saying "No Pikachu/Zamus/whatever, I don't want to be in the combo", then the 1v1 damage multiplier screwed him harder there too
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
I don't think Belly Armor is what is holding K.Rool back. It is really nice, to me it seems to force trades more than other heavies... or would, but the hitboxes aren't quite as good.., Makes sense, he gets an actually ridiculous SH, nair is really good there, etc etc... Its the same stuff, when you are that slow and big it is somewhat easy to play around you. He gets put in a range where he has to guess and they don't, and really that is fatal when being put in disadvantage is so bad in this game. Double unfortunately, he has some noob stomping moves that will never get buffed and seem to be made to be a core gameplan, but good players don't really get hit by crown.


I wish he could put out kannonball even slower then chase in with it, or shoot it up at an angle to have it fall down, anything that wouldn't make wifi hell vs him but would allow skilled players to set a deadly trap. The best heavies are the ones that actually can use strategy to push you into a corner, and then get huge reward for getting you there.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,156
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
I don't think Belly Armor is what is holding K.Rool back. It is really nice, to me it seems to force trades more than other heavies... or would, but the hitboxes aren't quite as good.., Makes sense, he gets an actually ridiculous SH, nair is really good there, etc etc... Its the same stuff, when you are that slow and big it is somewhat easy to play around you. He gets put in a range where he has to guess and they don't, and really that is fatal when being put in disadvantage is so bad in this game. Double unfortunately, he has some noob stomping moves that will never get buffed and seem to be made to be a core gameplan, but good players don't really get hit by crown.


I wish he could put out kannonball even slower then chase in with it, or shoot it up at an angle to have it fall down, anything that wouldn't make wifi hell vs him but would allow skilled players to set a deadly trap. The best heavies are the ones that actually can use strategy to push you into a corner, and then get huge reward for getting you there.
Er, except they did a while ago by making the blunderbuss faster acting, thereby giving him more time to capitalize on the shot, and also harder to react to online. Succ n' Cucc (K. Roolcide?) also became more practical with refiring being faster, which could be considered a "wifi tactic" if abused.

This, nair, fair and Gut Check buffs make a pure reactionary playstyle against K. Rool harder than before. It's just that his "autopilot" is one of the weakest, and the player needs to be good at changing tactics on the fly to make being punished harder.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Belly Armor doesn’t really seem to be his issue I agree, how often are you seeing K.Rool’s actually get their armor broken? I can’t imagine it happens too much more then you see shield breaks. He is trading when you hit his armor and the trade will be in his favor, knocking you away and giving reprieve so the armor has time to heal.

His main issue is the typical issue of undertunned big characters. Too easy to hit and slow when it matters. His projectiles aren’t meant for neutral no but that fact means he hasn’t a means to actually make people do what he wants. Side b takes 27 frames to be thrown. 27! Literally anyone can react to that, jump over it, grab and use throw armor to block the incoming crown and you even get to use the crown against him. The risk is so heavily skewed in K. Rool’s opponents favor he’s limited in when he can use it. Cannonball isn’t too much better either. I definitely agree on it traveling slower so he can chase it and use it like a more aggressive form of Villager’s lloid. But not all characters need to be able to engage in the long - mid range game to be successful.
That’s fine he will just play closer and try to apply big boy shield pressure and use his size to his advantage like Bowser does. And he admittedly has some good hitboxes, but important ones are slow and laggy and he’s far to large to get away from his opponent when they whiff or are blocked so now he exposes himself to even more skewed risk reward factor in favor of his opponent.

When I watch K.Rool I see a character that doesn’t have an clear objective and is a mismash of good and bad moves that don’t all mix together. Having to outplay his opponents hard to get offense going. I feel like he could use a rework on some of his moves so they fit better with complementing his good moves and traits.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,895
Location
Colorado
Belly Armor doesn’t really seem to be his issue I agree, how often are you seeing K.Rool’s actually get their armor broken? I can’t imagine it happens too much more then you see shield breaks. He is trading when you hit his armor and the trade will be in his favor, knocking you away and giving reprieve so the armor has time to heal.

His main issue is the typical issue of undertunned big characters. Too easy to hit and slow when it matters. His projectiles aren’t meant for neutral no but that fact means he hasn’t a means to actually make people do what he wants. Side b takes 27 frames to be thrown. 27! Literally anyone can react to that, jump over it, grab and use throw armor to block the incoming crown and you even get to use the crown against him. The risk is so heavily skewed in K. Rool’s opponents favor he’s limited in when he can use it. Cannonball isn’t too much better either. I definitely agree on it traveling slower so he can chase it and use it like a more aggressive form of Villager’s lloid. But not all characters need to be able to engage in the long - mid range game to be successful.
That’s fine he will just play closer and try to apply big boy shield pressure and use his size to his advantage like Bowser does. And he admittedly has some good hitboxes, but important ones are slow and laggy and he’s far to large to get away from his opponent when they whiff or are blocked so now he exposes himself to even more skewed risk reward factor in favor of his opponent.

When I watch K.Rool I see a character that doesn’t have an clear objective and is a mismash of good and bad moves that don’t all mix together. Having to outplay his opponents hard to get offense going. I feel like he could use a rework on some of his moves so they fit better with complementing his good moves and traits.
I agree :ultkrool:'s belly armor isn't much of an issue. I use him a lot in friendlies and the last time my armor broke was months ago when I talked about Lucas' Usmash breaking it before on this thread.

You're selling his projectiles short. For reference All 3 Links' boomerangs take 27 frames to come out and nobody complains about them. They hit fine. K.Rool's sideB is good as an anti-zoning-zoning tool. It powers through everything and has KB based armor. Is Wolf annoying you with his blaster? Belmont throwing his cross? Krown it.

Blunderbuss is a lot better after the buffs. It works really well at close-mid range because you can use the suction. Sometimes I like to SH approach with it>opponent shields the ball and gets sucked up. It can kill offstage recoveries too.

K.Rool's zoning isn't bad. It's not as good as some characters but he gets a lot of use out of it.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
His Belly would break more if his moves were good imo. But, that is a good thing. Having him be a powerful character, with a reliable but high risk gimmick would be a lot more exciting than he is now. His zoning would also have a bit more urgency if your opponent felt the need to get in while your armor is cracked. Just like any other useful resource that passively charges, there is *some* incentive to "get over there before something bad happens".
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,198
You're selling his projectiles short. For reference All 3 Links' boomerangs take 27 frames to come out and nobody complains about them. They hit fine. K.Rool's sideB is good as an anti-zoning-zoning tool. It powers through everything and has KB based armor. Is Wolf annoying you with his blaster? Belmont throwing his cross? Krown it.
The issue is that K. Rool's crown has significantly more endlag than the other moves you mentioned.

K. Rool's Crown has 64 frames of endlag.
YLink's Boomerang has 46 frames of endlag. (I cannot find the exact frame Link's and TLink's versions, but it is similar)
Belmont's Cross has 45 frames of endlag.

Additionally, K. Rool's Crown lacks the ability to angle it like the Links, or the ability to briefly stall in the air like the Belmonts.
 
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Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
479
To list my low and bottom tiers here are some things to note:

1) My personal low tier and bottom tier is notably bigger than most other player's low and bottom tiers. I am more strict on which character is low tier or not.

2) The bottom and low tiers are definitely stronger than the ones of past Smash games. When people think of "bottom" or "low" tier, people think of the power level of the character, but for me it is mostly character positions relative to the rest of the cast. The characters shown are overall lackluster, with reps and results to back it as well, but it is no where near the levels of the low tiers of Melee or Brawl.

3) I overall think that every character, even at the lowest tier, has at least some stuff going for them.

---------------------------------------------------

In terms of what are the worst characters, here is my bottom tier (or lower-low tier in you prefer), with explanations (strongest on the left, weakest on the right):

:ultdoc::ultkrool::ultgunner::ultbayonetta::ultlittlemac::ultcorrinf::ultpiranha::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultganondorf:

:ultganondorf: is easily the worst character for me. Very slow all-around, with lackluster frame data to back it, making his approach overall poor. His damage output and KO power, especially the latter, is pretty good, but he is too read reliant to get anything started. His hitboxes, while good on-paper, is lackluster relative to his size and mobility, with some blindspots on some of his moves (like up smash) to boot. Finally, his disadvantage is probably the worst in the game, being combo food thanks to his weight and size, and his recovery being one of the worst in the game.

His representation is one of the lowest in the game, even lower than SSB4 Ganondorf, while his results doesn't are much better. When your best result is 65th at Frostbite 2020, then you know that this character is in trouble. If only this character had his SSB4 up air, aerial Flame Choke, and up smash. That would've been really good for him.

:ultjigglypuff: is easily the biggest example of people overreacting to game update buffs. They are helpful to an extent, but the new stuff it got was is inconsistent on what it is trying to accomplish, while none of its numerous weaknesses getting addressed. The worst ground game in the game, low range, very light, and too reliant on extremely committal KO moves. Had bottom 10, even bottom 5, results since the beginning of the game and that hasn't changed much.

:ultisabelle: comes off as a gimmick to me. She possesses some similar moves as Villager, but they are not anywhere near as cohesive to her moveset. Her Fishing Rod is... ok, but losing Lloid Rocket in the process makes her ability to wall-off the opponent and force approaches considerably weaker. Her Lloid Trap seems alright, but with matchup experience, can be easily circumvented. It takes so long for her to pluck it down, it doesn't take much effort to remove it from the field (especially with disjoints), and it disappears by itself in only 20 seconds. The fact that she is lighter than Villy doesn't help.

Her reps are also very low. The players who play her either do not get very far outside of locals (or smaller regional events), or dual-main her with a better character and use that character more often. Panda Bair and Lv. 1 initially used her equally with their co-main, but has slowly drifted away from her.

The three above are what I consider to be the worst character contenders. Everyone below, while lackluster, is not.

:ultpiranha: was a very hit-and-run character in terms of the metagame (sort of reminiscent of :4gaw:). Had that one (or two) months of getting some respectable placements, but then completely dropped off the map. PPlant is a whole is a character with some seemingly nice tools, but is ultimately held back by it's awful approach. Average ground mobility, but poor air mobility with low air speed and terrible air acceleration. It doesn't help that it's frame data, especially in the air is overall lackluster. Less said about this character's terrible hitboxes, the better.

:ultcorrinf: is an interesting case. There is the fact that Cosmos got the reverse 3-0 upset against Dabuz. However, that is pretty much it about the character in terms of what she has done in the metagame. The upset is most likely a one-and-done thing, especially with Cosmos developing his Pikachu. Her representation and results remain to be one of the worst in the game (still confused on how that one set got Corrin 13.5 points on OrionStats).

Her moveset on the surface seems overall solid, but it does not mesh up well with her mobility. Her overall mobility is lackluster, but unlike other even slower characters, her moveset lacks the cohesion of Byleth's (where his moveset is built with low mobility in mind) or the reward of Incineroar's. The overall outline of Corrin's issues is that her overall approach is very predictable, while her reward for finally opening up does not compensate for her difficulties approaching, with inconsistent KO power to boot.

:ultlittlemac: is a very contentious character. The character is obviously low tier, but throughout Ultimate's history, I have strongly debated on where in low tier Mac could be. I ultimately decided here. The character's strengths and weaknesses needs no introduction. I was originally going to place Mac a bit higher in the list thanks to the pure utility of his ground game, but with his results starting to somewhat stagnate lately, I think this is where he belongs for now.

:ultbayonetta: is probably one of the most tragic characters in Smash history. She could have entered Ultimate being a somewhat decent character, and have her dedicated mains be properly compensated for mastering this technical character, but thanks to the whole MkLeo vs Plup thing at the invitational, the character we got when the game came out has been a wreck.

She is a tall, lightweight character that has trouble KO'ing (and she really struggles to land KOs). That is already a recipe for disaster. Then, you factor in moves that sometimes doesn't work (opponents effortlessly fall out of her jab at the ledge), poor overall frame data for a character of her archetype and attributes, and a very predictable approach... yeah, that hurts.

I would've personally ranked her even lower, but the results her dedicated mains bring out is a bit too high to be a worst character contender. But still, she possesses the best talent of any playerbase of an obscure character, but their reward for mastering this hard-to-play character is that you maybe get top 49 at a major. That is honestly quite tragic.

:ultgunner: is a really weird character. The name of this character's game is zoning you out hard, in which the character is pretty good on walling out the opponent. Similar to PPlant, ledgetrapping is where the character truly shines, as it can be hard, especially for characters that naturally struggle to get off the ledge, to get back on-stage.

However, there are some notable gaps in their gameplan. One is that their range-to-speed ratio on their normals is quite bad. The moves that are fast have short reach (and not even the fastest thing in the world) and KO power, while their longer ranged and more powerful moves are very slow. The character's overall frame data isn't very good, and this range-to-speed ratio can often make it hard for the character to land KOs. It doesn't help that this character's mobility got completely gutted in this game in comparison to SSB4, featuring a slower grounded mobility overall, and a significantly slower air mobility (forward air's range getting nerfed doesn't help). It is a character that relies very heavily on spacing, even more-so than in SSB4, but then you exist in an environment of Ultimate as one of the slowest characters in the game, and that is where the character begins to fall apart.

Overall, the Gunner feels like the weakest of the Miis in the current metagame. The character feels like it has some potential to be potent, but it is way too slow to get anything started, and unlike Robin, is not that strong in CQC to help compensate. Gunner is also the Mii that keeps getting the best costumes too...

:ultkrool: is still rather lackluster. I ranked him a bit higher than a few other people, but still bottom 10. We all know the drill for K. Rool, slow moveset, slow projectiles, exploitable recovery, the list goes one. I ranked him a bit higher than others thanks to Belly Armor shenanigans, as well as some decent aerials and a good grab game, but the character still struggles. He had a brief period towards the end of season 2 of some (albeit limited) success, but he has currently faded into obscurity.

:ultdoc: rounds out bottom 10 for me. He used to be a worst character contender, but the nice advantage state buffs from 7.0 has helped out the character from being that low. Despite this, the buffs from 7.0 did very little, at best, to address his weaknesses. He is still one of the absolute slowest characters in the game, in a moveset built for him to be up-close as possible, while having very little range on pretty much all of his moves (even less range than Mario on a few occurrences, such as forward smash). This, combined with a few of his aerials having unusually high landing lag for a character of his range and speed (even laggier than Mario in a few instances), makes his overall approach pretty bad. His recovery being as bad as it is doesn't help either.

So while Doc is a character where he will put in a lot of work when he finally gets in (Corrin cries in the corner), getting to that position in the first place is still very tough.

---------------------------------------------------

Here is my personal low tier, but with more brief explanations due to there being more of them (strongest on the left, weakest on the right):

:ultmewtwo::ultdk::ultdarkpit::ulthero::ultbowserjr::ulticeclimbers::ultrichter::ultkingdedede::ultbrawler::ultincineroar::ultkirby::ultswordfighter:

:ultswordfighter: is a character that has definitely fallen from grace since its initial perception. Powercreep from other low tiers getting buffed, while its metagame stagnating lately hasn't helped out either. The disjoints the character brings to the table is rather lackluster, with mediocre frame data and poor range for a sword. His mobility, while definitely not the worst thing ever, is not that great, only adding to its range issues.

To give some praise, the character's overall ability to wall out the opponent is pretty good, somewhat similar to Gunner. However, KO'ing with the character can be a bit of a hassle sometimes, as a lot of its KO options either very specific conditions to happen and the finishers itself is slow. There is of course the infamous Gale's Strike to Hero's Spin combo, but it is predictable (Gale Strike isn't that fast of a projectile), percent window is specific, and the opponent sometimes simply falls out of Hero's Spin for no reason.

The Mii is currently the lowest ranked Mii on OrionStats (and the third lowest ranked character in the stats as a whole), which kind of paints the picture on how much the character has stagnated, but it still has its stuff.

:ultkirby: is a character that has indeed benefited from 6.0 considerably, unlike its pink puff-ball counterpart. The character has some solid traits all-around, held back some notable range issues, poor air mobility, and overall struggling to deal with projectiles. Already noticeably better than SSB4 Kirby, the character still has some ways to go to reach the solid mid-tier heights of his Brawl incarnation. Wanted to rank him slightly higher, but with his results slightly stagnating lately, I decided against it.

:ultincineroar: needs no introduction in terms of character strengths and weaknesses. For the most part, it is basically Ganondorf, but better. Has the usual super-heavyweight traits of being powerful, but it has a solid combo game and frame data to boot. The main issue with the character, as we all know, is its abysmal mobility. The character's recovery not being very good doesn't help either.

I ranked Incineroar higher than most other people in this thread, not just because I value it's character strengths a bit more than other players, but the character has a surprisingly high amount of results according to OrionStats lately. Magister seems to be back on the grind. The character is still overall very flawed, but underestimate it on your own peril.

:ultbrawler: is probably the best of the Miis in the current metagame. Solid overall combo game, great mobility, and some powerful (albeit gimmicky) utility on its special moves. The advantage state of this character, with the right setup, can reach Dr. Mario levels of powerful, while being much faster than that aforementioned character, the main reason why I think Brawler is better than Doc.

Despite these nice traits, the character still suffers from having one of the worst overall ranges in the game, having little safety on opponent's shields, rather high landing lag on a character of his archetype, and some inconsistent time KO'ing. As a result, it is another character that has to commit a lot to leave a dent on the opponent.

Brawler has recently got a notable increase in rankings on OrionStats, although its presence in competitive play is still rather minimal, like the other two Miis.

:ultkingdedede: alongside the Belmonts and Mii Swordfighter, Dedede has been a solid mid tier character at one point. However, the combination of the three character's metagames stagnating and lower tiered characters getting buffed, puts them in the low tiers.

Dedede still has quite a bit of his advantages: Gordo set-ups with an infinite-use reflector as backup, a long disjointed Hammer with coverage, a long-distanced recovery, and powerful ledgetrapping capabilities. However, with his sluggish mobility, frame data, and a projectile that can't really be used for camping, Dedede has his issues. This is reflected in his results, as Dedede while definitely nowhere near bottom tier level of results, has definitely seen better days. He has his good stuff, but the flaws are currently done him more harm lately.

:ultrichter: has definitely fallen from grace, especially in comparison to how warmly received he was near the game's release. He possesses long range, ways to mix-up his movement, an array of projectiles, and an entire list of combo/KO setups with these said projectiles. However, his lackluster frame data, skinny hitboxes, meh mobility, and poor recovery has definitely done this character a dirty hand lately. He has achieved some pretty solid results in the past, and while his current results isn't all too bad, he is definitely a shell of his former self when it comes to his standing in the metagame.

:ulticeclimbers: is probably the weirdest case in my list. On one hand, the character has access to devastating 0-death setups and has some walling abilities with de-syncs. So close to being devastating character, but is held back by numerous inconsistencies and inherent issues that high technical skill cannot address. The range on their moves often range from being below-average to outright laughably small. Separating and KO'ing the partner Climber is made rather easy in this game thanks to the increased damage multiplier on Nana, more moves that can separate them, and Nana's AI being absolutely stupid, the latter of which can make the character unwieldy to use. Then there is also their recovery failing for no apparent reason sometimes.

The only player as of right now that is doing remotely well with the character is Big D, but I think a lot of it is Big D being an amazing player, as well as some aspect of matchup inexperience (side B spam anyone?). Even then Big D's results with the character at bigger events can be inconsistent.

:ultbowserjr: has been the character who has been splashing all over the competitive scene time and time again. The character some solid overall traits that the character has to respect: Clown Car Dash, up air juggles, ledgetrapping, jab at the ledge, the list goes on. The character is, however, still burdened with his usual problems: predictable approach, sluggish/short reached finishers, and gimpable recovery. We do have his mains, especially from Young Eevey put in the work with character. While the character still have his problems, he can be frightful threat in the right hands.

:ulthero: is another example of people overreacting to a character's initial impressions. The character has quite a bit of powerful spells in his disposal, as well as some good KO power at his fingertips. However, this comes at the cost of being incredibly slow. While his grounded mobility is ok, his aerial mobility is awful, while the frame data on his normals is among the worst in the game. Two big examples is his forward and back air taking a hundred years to come out. Shulk's frame data on his normals is not that good either, but he at least has range and faster mobility overall (especially with Speed Art active).

As for the spells, they are too random and situation specific from being a truly powerful threat. The over-inflation of Hero players at the beginning of his release, made people realize how to deal with his spells most effectively. Magic Burst, considered one of his best spells at the beginning of his release, is now considered to be one of his most situational and exploitable ones. To his credit, Bounce is a very effective spell to deal with zoners, which creates his niche counterpicking potential. However, what this sums up to is a character with a high technical learning curve, but your reward is a mere counterpick character that still feels like an uphill battle at times.

In terms of results, you have a few Hero players pop-up from time to time in low level play, but Salem is the only one doing stuff with the character (and he uses a bunch of other characters as well). Definitely the weakest of the Fighter's Pass 1 characters for me.

:ultdarkpit: is another contentious character due to his oddity in the metagame. The very existence of the Pits often puts in question what characters need truly stand out. As for the character, the Pits possess good frame data, decent grounded mobility, a decent combo game, and a long-distanced varied recovery. The main thing that stands out for the character is that the character's ability to edgeguard is great overall.

Then there is the fact that the character is hurt quite a bit from inconsistent multi-hits, short hitboxes (especially on nair and fair), and some difficulty KO'ing. His damage output, while respectable if you know to combo with the character properly, is not very outstanding either. The final blow to the character is that there isn't anything really interesting about the character that will invite some players (especially when the metagame contains of lot of users of unga-bunga rushdown characters like Roy).

Pits reps and results, ever since the beginning, has been sparse. However, the lack of Earth is what really hurts the character, as he provided easily the best results for the character in both Brawl and SSB4, results that made him a top 25 player in SSB4 at one point. Imagine a universe where ESAM doesn't exist, and imagine what people would think of Pikachu then...

:ultdk:, alongside Mewtwo, one of the "crazy advantage, but bad disadvantage" characters that are so close to being a top threat. The damage, the combos, the reach, the armor... DK has a lot of stuff going for him in terms of advantage state, possessing one of the best back airs that can KO, space, and combo into itself at low percents. DK is also a character with a lot of KO options at his disposal: throw setups, down B setups, grounded up B, the list goes on.

But then you put the character above you, then that is where the character begins to falter. With the changes to airdodges, he becomes even easier to combo and juggle than he already is, while his recovery remains very exploitable as always. These are weaknesses not alien to DK throughout the Smash series, but at least in comparison to SSB4, these weaknesses are intensified to hurt DK in the long run.

Now I am personally surprised on how DK is ranked so high in OrionStats, but his standing in major events has been low since the beginning. He definitely has some sauce, his easily susceptibility to sauce himself weighs him down in the meantime.

:ultmewtwo: has been a discussion point lately. He possesses, low-key, top 10 advantage state in the entire game, with long reaching normals, high mobility, one of the best projectiles in the game, and the power to put you in disadvantage for a long time. His combo and KO capabilities is also very powerful as well. But then you put Mewtwo in disadvantage, and then he struggles. Easily the biggest loser of the airdodge changes, his get-out-of-disadvantage free card from SSB4 is gone, and now he is feeling the full effects of what being tall and light does for a character (even if he heavier in this game than in SSB4).

The combination of feeling bad in disadvantage, as well as being a highly technical character (and old mains of former Mewtwo players getting buffed in Ultimate), all contributes to his low representation. Where he is in the metagame is very volatile depending on who you ask, and while he does have a lot of stuff going for him, he is too inconsistent to quite reach the mid tier point for me, but he does stand at the very top of my low tier.

:ultmetaknight: and :ultlucario: were both close to being at the top of my low tier, but I decided not too in the end. Their overall character traits are overall too solid to be put in low tier.

Meta Knight's results are more niche, but continues to this day. Lucario's results come from Tsu putting in the work with the character, and has achieved great wins and some results with him, but he lately has been focusing on Terry.

While writing this long post, my opinion and position has changed for each character from time to time.
My initial draft had:
:ultjigglypuff: > :ultisabelle:
:ultincineroar::ultkirby: > :ultbrawler:
:ulticeclimbers::ultrichter::ultkingdedede: > :ultbowserjr:

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I want to know you guy's thoughts on this.
I usually don't post something this opinionated in SmashBoards, usually speaking in terms of observations and data (although both are used in my arguments), but since the topic is brought up and the metagame is in an interesting spot, I want to share my thoughts.
For Gunner, your range to frame data point isn't very accurate for most of the character's normals. Gunner has bair, utilt, dsmash, and usmash with a good combination of range, speed and kill power. Fsmash, fair, ftilt, dtilt, and dash attack have very good range for their startup, and fsmash, dtilt and dash attack have solid kill power. Nair and jab have pretty good reach for their speed. Gunner's nair is disjointed enough to beat Yoshi's dair with good spacing, and Gunner's jab has almost as much range as Cloud's. Jab is on the borderline of fitting your statement in my opinion, but it is still a good move since it sets up tech chases at low percents. The moves that fit your analysis are uair, and dair. The worst move Gunner has is dair, and it still has enough safety on shield and active frames to be used in some landing situations. Gunner's up air has great range, power, and active frames. The reason it fits your statement is because it is the slowest up air in the game, but it is a good move in spite of fitting your claim. Gunner also has one of the best frame 6 grab ranges in the game.

Gunner can definitely get combos started and get kills. Moves like grenades, missiles, and bombs can get combos at a very wide percent range, and they lead into a variety of kill confirms. They are also good neutral options since they stay out for a long time which gives Gunner the chance to punish the opponent's reaction to the projectiles. Gunner's fair is also a great neutral option that is only -1 on shield, and it has great combo potential. It still has range similar to the Belmont's fair/bair. Charge blast also has great kill power, and it forces approaches. Bair has good range, kill power, combo potential, and safety on shield. Nair has good range, coverage and safety on shield.

Depending on the moveset, Gunner can get good combos and kill confirms at close range, mid range and long range. Gunner can get 30+ percent combos from, fair, bair, nair, grab, and up tilt regardless of the moveset. Gunner can also get 30+ percent combos from 2 neutral specials, 2 side specials, and bomb drop.

Gunner's mobility is overall worse, but spacing isn't much of an issue. Gunner's projectiles that require spacing just need the opponent to be a few units away. Gunner can still get combos even if the opponent is farther away, and the the character Gunner can also use bombs to discourage the opponent from going in.

Gunner doesn't get a ton of results, but there are some external factors that weigh down the character's results. Aikota literally dropped Gunner because of the character hate he received. Katakiri isn't able to go to majors very often for financial reasons, but he is still doing well in Ohio.

Edit: Aikota has picked Gunner back up as a secondary.

The pinned message above goes through why I disagree with your Gunner thoughts. A quick summary of my thoughts is that Gunner's moveset is really solid, and the character has a variety of options for racking up damage and killing. I also went over some of the reasons why Gunner hasn't gotten too many results.

I have a couple of other small corrections. Swordfighter's gale strike confirms don't depend on percent. The move has set knockback. Also, Corrin's results are also due to Ke-ya getting some results in Japan. For your most recent post, your numbers aren't for endlag. Those are the first actionable frames of each move.

To list my low and bottom tiers here are some things to note:

1) My personal low tier and bottom tier is notably bigger than most other player's low and bottom tiers. I am more strict on which character is low tier or not.

2) The bottom and low tiers are definitely stronger than the ones of past Smash games. When people think of "bottom" or "low" tier, people think of the power level of the character, but for me it is mostly character positions relative to the rest of the cast. The characters shown are overall lackluster, with reps and results to back it as well, but it is no where near the levels of the low tiers of Melee or Brawl.

3) I overall think that every character, even at the lowest tier, has at least some stuff going for them.

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In terms of what are the worst characters, here is my bottom tier (or lower-low tier in you prefer), with explanations (strongest on the left, weakest on the right):

:ultdoc::ultkrool::ultgunner::ultbayonetta::ultlittlemac::ultcorrinf::ultpiranha::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultganondorf:

:ultganondorf: is easily the worst character for me. Very slow all-around, with lackluster frame data to back it, making his approach overall poor. His damage output and KO power, especially the latter, is pretty good, but he is too read reliant to get anything started. His hitboxes, while good on-paper, is lackluster relative to his size and mobility, with some blindspots on some of his moves (like up smash) to boot. Finally, his disadvantage is probably the worst in the game, being combo food thanks to his weight and size, and his recovery being one of the worst in the game.

His representation is one of the lowest in the game, even lower than SSB4 Ganondorf, while his results doesn't are much better. When your best result is 65th at Frostbite 2020, then you know that this character is in trouble. If only this character had his SSB4 up air, aerial Flame Choke, and up smash. That would've been really good for him.

:ultjigglypuff: is easily the biggest example of people overreacting to game update buffs. They are helpful to an extent, but the new stuff it got was is inconsistent on what it is trying to accomplish, while none of its numerous weaknesses getting addressed. The worst ground game in the game, low range, very light, and too reliant on extremely committal KO moves. Had bottom 10, even bottom 5, results since the beginning of the game and that hasn't changed much.

:ultisabelle: comes off as a gimmick to me. She possesses some similar moves as Villager, but they are not anywhere near as cohesive to her moveset. Her Fishing Rod is... ok, but losing Lloid Rocket in the process makes her ability to wall-off the opponent and force approaches considerably weaker. Her Lloid Trap seems alright, but with matchup experience, can be easily circumvented. It takes so long for her to pluck it down, it doesn't take much effort to remove it from the field (especially with disjoints), and it disappears by itself in only 20 seconds. The fact that she is lighter than Villy doesn't help.

Her reps are also very low. The players who play her either do not get very far outside of locals (or smaller regional events), or dual-main her with a better character and use that character more often. Panda Bair and Lv. 1 initially used her equally with their co-main, but has slowly drifted away from her.

The three above are what I consider to be the worst character contenders. Everyone below, while lackluster, is not.

:ultpiranha: was a very hit-and-run character in terms of the metagame (sort of reminiscent of :4gaw:). Had that one (or two) months of getting some respectable placements, but then completely dropped off the map. PPlant is a whole is a character with some seemingly nice tools, but is ultimately held back by it's awful approach. Average ground mobility, but poor air mobility with low air speed and terrible air acceleration. It doesn't help that it's frame data, especially in the air is overall lackluster. Less said about this character's terrible hitboxes, the better.

:ultcorrinf: is an interesting case. There is the fact that Cosmos got the reverse 3-0 upset against Dabuz. However, that is pretty much it about the character in terms of what she has done in the metagame. The upset is most likely a one-and-done thing, especially with Cosmos developing his Pikachu. Her representation and results remain to be one of the worst in the game (still confused on how that one set got Corrin 13.5 points on OrionStats).

Her moveset on the surface seems overall solid, but it does not mesh up well with her mobility. Her overall mobility is lackluster, but unlike other even slower characters, her moveset lacks the cohesion of Byleth's (where his moveset is built with low mobility in mind) or the reward of Incineroar's. The overall outline of Corrin's issues is that her overall approach is very predictable, while her reward for finally opening up does not compensate for her difficulties approaching, with inconsistent KO power to boot.

:ultlittlemac: is a very contentious character. The character is obviously low tier, but throughout Ultimate's history, I have strongly debated on where in low tier Mac could be. I ultimately decided here. The character's strengths and weaknesses needs no introduction. I was originally going to place Mac a bit higher in the list thanks to the pure utility of his ground game, but with his results starting to somewhat stagnate lately, I think this is where he belongs for now.

:ultbayonetta: is probably one of the most tragic characters in Smash history. She could have entered Ultimate being a somewhat decent character, and have her dedicated mains be properly compensated for mastering this technical character, but thanks to the whole MkLeo vs Plup thing at the invitational, the character we got when the game came out has been a wreck.

She is a tall, lightweight character that has trouble KO'ing (and she really struggles to land KOs). That is already a recipe for disaster. Then, you factor in moves that sometimes doesn't work (opponents effortlessly fall out of her jab at the ledge), poor overall frame data for a character of her archetype and attributes, and a very predictable approach... yeah, that hurts.

I would've personally ranked her even lower, but the results her dedicated mains bring out is a bit too high to be a worst character contender. But still, she possesses the best talent of any playerbase of an obscure character, but their reward for mastering this hard-to-play character is that you maybe get top 49 at a major. That is honestly quite tragic.

:ultgunner: is a really weird character. The name of this character's game is zoning you out hard, in which the character is pretty good on walling out the opponent. Similar to PPlant, ledgetrapping is where the character truly shines, as it can be hard, especially for characters that naturally struggle to get off the ledge, to get back on-stage.

However, there are some notable gaps in their gameplan. One is that their range-to-speed ratio on their normals is quite bad. The moves that are fast have short reach (and not even the fastest thing in the world) and KO power, while their longer ranged and more powerful moves are very slow. The character's overall frame data isn't very good, and this range-to-speed ratio can often make it hard for the character to land KOs. It doesn't help that this character's mobility got completely gutted in this game in comparison to SSB4, featuring a slower grounded mobility overall, and a significantly slower air mobility (forward air's range getting nerfed doesn't help). It is a character that relies very heavily on spacing, even more-so than in SSB4, but then you exist in an environment of Ultimate as one of the slowest characters in the game, and that is where the character begins to fall apart.

Overall, the Gunner feels like the weakest of the Miis in the current metagame. The character feels like it has some potential to be potent, but it is way too slow to get anything started, and unlike Robin, is not that strong in CQC to help compensate. Gunner is also the Mii that keeps getting the best costumes too...

:ultkrool: is still rather lackluster. I ranked him a bit higher than a few other people, but still bottom 10. We all know the drill for K. Rool, slow moveset, slow projectiles, exploitable recovery, the list goes one. I ranked him a bit higher than others thanks to Belly Armor shenanigans, as well as some decent aerials and a good grab game, but the character still struggles. He had a brief period towards the end of season 2 of some (albeit limited) success, but he has currently faded into obscurity.

:ultdoc: rounds out bottom 10 for me. He used to be a worst character contender, but the nice advantage state buffs from 7.0 has helped out the character from being that low. Despite this, the buffs from 7.0 did very little, at best, to address his weaknesses. He is still one of the absolute slowest characters in the game, in a moveset built for him to be up-close as possible, while having very little range on pretty much all of his moves (even less range than Mario on a few occurrences, such as forward smash). This, combined with a few of his aerials having unusually high landing lag for a character of his range and speed (even laggier than Mario in a few instances), makes his overall approach pretty bad. His recovery being as bad as it is doesn't help either.

So while Doc is a character where he will put in a lot of work when he finally gets in (Corrin cries in the corner), getting to that position in the first place is still very tough.

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Here is my personal low tier, but with more brief explanations due to there being more of them (strongest on the left, weakest on the right):

:ultmewtwo::ultdk::ultdarkpit::ulthero::ultbowserjr::ulticeclimbers::ultrichter::ultkingdedede::ultbrawler::ultincineroar::ultkirby::ultswordfighter:

:ultswordfighter: is a character that has definitely fallen from grace since its initial perception. Powercreep from other low tiers getting buffed, while its metagame stagnating lately hasn't helped out either. The disjoints the character brings to the table is rather lackluster, with mediocre frame data and poor range for a sword. His mobility, while definitely not the worst thing ever, is not that great, only adding to its range issues.

To give some praise, the character's overall ability to wall out the opponent is pretty good, somewhat similar to Gunner. However, KO'ing with the character can be a bit of a hassle sometimes, as a lot of its KO options either very specific conditions to happen and the finishers itself is slow. There is of course the infamous Gale's Strike to Hero's Spin combo, but it is predictable (Gale Strike isn't that fast of a projectile), percent window is specific, and the opponent sometimes simply falls out of Hero's Spin for no reason.

The Mii is currently the lowest ranked Mii on OrionStats (and the third lowest ranked character in the stats as a whole), which kind of paints the picture on how much the character has stagnated, but it still has its stuff.

:ultkirby: is a character that has indeed benefited from 6.0 considerably, unlike its pink puff-ball counterpart. The character has some solid traits all-around, held back some notable range issues, poor air mobility, and overall struggling to deal with projectiles. Already noticeably better than SSB4 Kirby, the character still has some ways to go to reach the solid mid-tier heights of his Brawl incarnation. Wanted to rank him slightly higher, but with his results slightly stagnating lately, I decided against it.

:ultincineroar: needs no introduction in terms of character strengths and weaknesses. For the most part, it is basically Ganondorf, but better. Has the usual super-heavyweight traits of being powerful, but it has a solid combo game and frame data to boot. The main issue with the character, as we all know, is its abysmal mobility. The character's recovery not being very good doesn't help either.

I ranked Incineroar higher than most other people in this thread, not just because I value it's character strengths a bit more than other players, but the character has a surprisingly high amount of results according to OrionStats lately. Magister seems to be back on the grind. The character is still overall very flawed, but underestimate it on your own peril.

:ultbrawler: is probably the best of the Miis in the current metagame. Solid overall combo game, great mobility, and some powerful (albeit gimmicky) utility on its special moves. The advantage state of this character, with the right setup, can reach Dr. Mario levels of powerful, while being much faster than that aforementioned character, the main reason why I think Brawler is better than Doc.

Despite these nice traits, the character still suffers from having one of the worst overall ranges in the game, having little safety on opponent's shields, rather high landing lag on a character of his archetype, and some inconsistent time KO'ing. As a result, it is another character that has to commit a lot to leave a dent on the opponent.

Brawler has recently got a notable increase in rankings on OrionStats, although its presence in competitive play is still rather minimal, like the other two Miis.

:ultkingdedede: alongside the Belmonts and Mii Swordfighter, Dedede has been a solid mid tier character at one point. However, the combination of the three character's metagames stagnating and lower tiered characters getting buffed, puts them in the low tiers.

Dedede still has quite a bit of his advantages: Gordo set-ups with an infinite-use reflector as backup, a long disjointed Hammer with coverage, a long-distanced recovery, and powerful ledgetrapping capabilities. However, with his sluggish mobility, frame data, and a projectile that can't really be used for camping, Dedede has his issues. This is reflected in his results, as Dedede while definitely nowhere near bottom tier level of results, has definitely seen better days. He has his good stuff, but the flaws are currently done him more harm lately.

:ultrichter: has definitely fallen from grace, especially in comparison to how warmly received he was near the game's release. He possesses long range, ways to mix-up his movement, an array of projectiles, and an entire list of combo/KO setups with these said projectiles. However, his lackluster frame data, skinny hitboxes, meh mobility, and poor recovery has definitely done this character a dirty hand lately. He has achieved some pretty solid results in the past, and while his current results isn't all too bad, he is definitely a shell of his former self when it comes to his standing in the metagame.

:ulticeclimbers: is probably the weirdest case in my list. On one hand, the character has access to devastating 0-death setups and has some walling abilities with de-syncs. So close to being devastating character, but is held back by numerous inconsistencies and inherent issues that high technical skill cannot address. The range on their moves often range from being below-average to outright laughably small. Separating and KO'ing the partner Climber is made rather easy in this game thanks to the increased damage multiplier on Nana, more moves that can separate them, and Nana's AI being absolutely stupid, the latter of which can make the character unwieldy to use. Then there is also their recovery failing for no apparent reason sometimes.

The only player as of right now that is doing remotely well with the character is Big D, but I think a lot of it is Big D being an amazing player, as well as some aspect of matchup inexperience (side B spam anyone?). Even then Big D's results with the character at bigger events can be inconsistent.

:ultbowserjr: has been the character who has been splashing all over the competitive scene time and time again. The character some solid overall traits that the character has to respect: Clown Car Dash, up air juggles, ledgetrapping, jab at the ledge, the list goes on. The character is, however, still burdened with his usual problems: predictable approach, sluggish/short reached finishers, and gimpable recovery. We do have his mains, especially from Young Eevey put in the work with character. While the character still have his problems, he can be frightful threat in the right hands.

:ulthero: is another example of people overreacting to a character's initial impressions. The character has quite a bit of powerful spells in his disposal, as well as some good KO power at his fingertips. However, this comes at the cost of being incredibly slow. While his grounded mobility is ok, his aerial mobility is awful, while the frame data on his normals is among the worst in the game. Two big examples is his forward and back air taking a hundred years to come out. Shulk's frame data on his normals is not that good either, but he at least has range and faster mobility overall (especially with Speed Art active).

As for the spells, they are too random and situation specific from being a truly powerful threat. The over-inflation of Hero players at the beginning of his release, made people realize how to deal with his spells most effectively. Magic Burst, considered one of his best spells at the beginning of his release, is now considered to be one of his most situational and exploitable ones. To his credit, Bounce is a very effective spell to deal with zoners, which creates his niche counterpicking potential. However, what this sums up to is a character with a high technical learning curve, but your reward is a mere counterpick character that still feels like an uphill battle at times.

In terms of results, you have a few Hero players pop-up from time to time in low level play, but Salem is the only one doing stuff with the character (and he uses a bunch of other characters as well). Definitely the weakest of the Fighter's Pass 1 characters for me.

:ultdarkpit: is another contentious character due to his oddity in the metagame. The very existence of the Pits often puts in question what characters need truly stand out. As for the character, the Pits possess good frame data, decent grounded mobility, a decent combo game, and a long-distanced varied recovery. The main thing that stands out for the character is that the character's ability to edgeguard is great overall.

Then there is the fact that the character is hurt quite a bit from inconsistent multi-hits, short hitboxes (especially on nair and fair), and some difficulty KO'ing. His damage output, while respectable if you know to combo with the character properly, is not very outstanding either. The final blow to the character is that there isn't anything really interesting about the character that will invite some players (especially when the metagame contains of lot of users of unga-bunga rushdown characters like Roy).

Pits reps and results, ever since the beginning, has been sparse. However, the lack of Earth is what really hurts the character, as he provided easily the best results for the character in both Brawl and SSB4, results that made him a top 25 player in SSB4 at one point. Imagine a universe where ESAM doesn't exist, and imagine what people would think of Pikachu then...

:ultdk:, alongside Mewtwo, one of the "crazy advantage, but bad disadvantage" characters that are so close to being a top threat. The damage, the combos, the reach, the armor... DK has a lot of stuff going for him in terms of advantage state, possessing one of the best back airs that can KO, space, and combo into itself at low percents. DK is also a character with a lot of KO options at his disposal: throw setups, down B setups, grounded up B, the list goes on.

But then you put the character above you, then that is where the character begins to falter. With the changes to airdodges, he becomes even easier to combo and juggle than he already is, while his recovery remains very exploitable as always. These are weaknesses not alien to DK throughout the Smash series, but at least in comparison to SSB4, these weaknesses are intensified to hurt DK in the long run.

Now I am personally surprised on how DK is ranked so high in OrionStats, but his standing in major events has been low since the beginning. He definitely has some sauce, his easily susceptibility to sauce himself weighs him down in the meantime.

:ultmewtwo: has been a discussion point lately. He possesses, low-key, top 10 advantage state in the entire game, with long reaching normals, high mobility, one of the best projectiles in the game, and the power to put you in disadvantage for a long time. His combo and KO capabilities is also very powerful as well. But then you put Mewtwo in disadvantage, and then he struggles. Easily the biggest loser of the airdodge changes, his get-out-of-disadvantage free card from SSB4 is gone, and now he is feeling the full effects of what being tall and light does for a character (even if he heavier in this game than in SSB4).

The combination of feeling bad in disadvantage, as well as being a highly technical character (and old mains of former Mewtwo players getting buffed in Ultimate), all contributes to his low representation. Where he is in the metagame is very volatile depending on who you ask, and while he does have a lot of stuff going for him, he is too inconsistent to quite reach the mid tier point for me, but he does stand at the very top of my low tier.

:ultmetaknight: and :ultlucario: were both close to being at the top of my low tier, but I decided not too in the end. Their overall character traits are overall too solid to be put in low tier.

Meta Knight's results are more niche, but continues to this day. Lucario's results come from Tsu putting in the work with the character, and has achieved great wins and some results with him, but he lately has been focusing on Terry.

While writing this long post, my opinion and position has changed for each character from time to time.
My initial draft had:
:ultjigglypuff: > :ultisabelle:
:ultincineroar::ultkirby: > :ultbrawler:
:ulticeclimbers::ultrichter::ultkingdedede: > :ultbowserjr:

-------------------------------------------------------

I want to know you guy's thoughts on this.
I usually don't post something this opinionated in SmashBoards, usually speaking in terms of observations and data (although both are used in my arguments), but since the topic is brought up and the metagame is in an interesting spot, I want to share my thoughts.
For Gunner, your range to frame data point isn't very accurate for most of the character's normals. Gunner has bair, utilt, dsmash, and usmash with a good combination of range, speed and kill power. Fsmash, fair, ftilt, dtilt, and dash attack have very good range for their startup, and fsmash, dtilt and dash attack have solid kill power. Nair and jab have pretty good reach for their speed. Gunner's nair is disjointed enough to beat Yoshi's dair with good spacing, and Gunner's jab has almost as much range as Cloud's. Jab is on the borderline of fitting your statement in my opinion, but it is still a good move since it sets up tech chases at low percents. The moves that fit your analysis are uair, and dair. The worst move Gunner has is dair, and it still has enough safety on shield and active frames to be used in some landing situations. Gunner's up air has great range, power, and active frames. The reason it fits your statement is because it is the slowest up air in the game, but it is a good move in spite of fitting your claim. Gunner also has one of the best frame 6 grab ranges in the game.

Gunner can definitely get combos started and get kills. Moves like grenades, missiles, and bombs can get combos at a very wide percent range, and they lead into a variety of kill confirms. They are also good neutral options since they stay out for a long time which gives Gunner the chance to punish the opponent's reaction to the projectiles. Gunner's fair is also a great neutral option that is only -1 on shield, and it has great combo potential. It still has range similar to the Belmont's fair/bair. Charge blast also has great kill power, and it forces approaches. Bair has good range, kill power, combo potential, and safety on shield. Nair has good range, coverage and safety on shield.

Depending on the moveset, Gunner can get good combos and kill confirms at close range, mid range and long range. Gunner can get 30+ percent combos from, fair, bair, nair, grab, and up tilt regardless of the moveset. Gunner can also get 30+ percent combos from 2 neutral specials, 2 side specials, and bomb drop.

Gunner's mobility is overall worse, but spacing isn't much of an issue. Gunner's projectiles that require spacing just need the opponent to be a few units away. Gunner can still get combos even if the opponent is farther away, and the the character has one of the best grab games in the cast at close range. Gunner can also use bombs to discourage the opponent from going in.

Gunner doesn't get a ton of results, but there are some external factors that weigh down the character's results. Aikota literally dropped Gunner because of the character hate he received. Katakiri isn't able to go to majors very often for financial reasons, but he is still doing well in Ohio.

The pinned message above goes through why I disagree with your Gunner thoughts. A quick summary of my thoughts is that Gunner's moveset is really solid, and the character has a variety of options for racking up damage and killing. I also went over some of the reasons why Gunner hasn't gotten too many results.

I have a couple of other small corrections. Swordfighter's gale strike confirms don't depend on percent. The move has set knockback. Also, Corrin's results are also due to Ke-ya getting some results in Japan.

EDIT: Accidentally double posted.
 

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Rizen

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The issue is that K. Rool's crown has significantly more endlag than the other moves you mentioned.

K. Rool's Crown has 64 frames of endlag.
YLink's Boomerang has 46 frames of endlag. (I cannot find the exact frame Link's and TLink's versions, but it is similar)
Belmont's Cross has 45 frames of endlag.

Additionally, K. Rool's Crown lacks the ability to angle it like the Links, or the ability to briefly stall in the air like the Belmonts.
I agree with all this but they serve different purposes. Like I said, K.Rool's Krown is an anti-zoning tool. It has a lot better priority than the Links' boomerangs. It's not a bad projectile.
 

Heracr055

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I might've accidentally missed it, but I think KEN won something last week and I don't think anyone here mentioned it. Suffice it to say that between that and Wrath's recent placings that Sonic is on the rise, and I find that to be pretty exciting.
On an unrelated note, can we kill/modify the poll at the top of this thread please?
 

BitBitio

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Give :ultsimon::ultrichter: some credit. They have something most zoners wish they had, an amazing midrange game. Fair/bair, ftilt, dtilt, Holy water, dash attack, and down smash all have the ability to threaten opponents in the midrange. Add it to a decent CQC/boxing game with f5 disjointed jab, dtilt again, f6 up-b, nair, and down air, and you realize that this character can totally threaten opponents in way that most zoners wish they could. I will admit that being slow with a bad recovery is a recipe that consistently fails in Smash but Belmont has too much going for him for that.
 

blackghost

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:ultbayonetta: is probably one of the most tragic characters in Smash history. She could have entered Ultimate being a somewhat decent character, and have her dedicated mains be properly compensated for mastering this technical character, but thanks to the whole MkLeo vs Plup thing at the invitational, the character we got when the game came out has been a wreck.

She is a tall, lightweight character that has trouble KO'ing (and she really struggles to land KOs). That is already a recipe for disaster. Then, you factor in moves that sometimes doesn't work (opponents effortlessly fall out of her jab at the ledge), poor overall frame data for a character of her archetype and attributes, and a very predictable approach... yeah, that hurts.

I would've personally ranked her even lower, but the results her dedicated mains bring out is a bit too high to be a worst character contender. But still, she possesses the best talent of any playerbase of an obscure character, but their reward for mastering this hard-to-play character is that you maybe get top 49 at a major. That is honestly quite tragic.

.
bayo is one of a few cases where the playerbase has a substantial gap on knowledge of the character to the general smash playerbase (along with shotos and pacman), but she is a character that doesnt reward that knowledge and skill until you approach lima or purity levels of skill with the character. i dont think shes very good because it is easy to tell when an opponent plays a bayo if they know what to do or not.

Lats year when a bayo made it to top 16 at a mjor people were insisting bayo was good and when you looked back at the bracket you saw that the bayo basically had an ideal bracket of back to back ROBs to reach that high.

theother thing with bayo is that even though th eplethora of mid tiers beat her if you lack Mu experinece you can get exposed vs some of the pther bottom tiers incineroar or miis you can get by just be exploiting their weaknesses.
 

MrGameguycolor

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After reading Belly Armor posts, I still stick by saying while as a whole Belly Armor isn't a weakness, yet it's overall function as double edge-sword due to the lacking HP doesn't work on a big, sluggish character with a ton of weakness as is. You can never 100% predict when you'll be hit with a move that breaks it and spells curtains, forcing him to play catch up for the rest of the game. Helped out even less that his only good, flexible option is his Nair with nothing else good to fall back on.

It doesn't even work in comparison to other gimmicks with drawbacks since they usually that have some workaround:

-Run out of Ink that weakness and takes away some moves? Just refill a little of it.
-Nana is dead? You still fight and make the most of your remaining stock.
-No Pikmin? Just pluck more.

-Belly Armor took too many hits? Better pray the opponent screws up...

Don't remember who said Gut Check's blindspot was fine, failing to cover his back and lacking a B-Reverse property is a passable drawback to a strong counter. But failing to even cover his head on a character with limited anti-airs in a game where landing aerials are so strong isn't reasonable.
Gut Check's powerful applications don't matter if you can't even use the counter.
 
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blackghost

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After reading Belly Armor posts, I still stick by saying while as a whole Belly Armor isn't a weakness, yet it's overall function as double edge-sword due to the lacking HP doesn't work on a big, sluggish character with a ton of weakness as is. You can never 100% predict when you'll be hit with a move that breaks it and spells curtains, forcing him to play catch up for the rest of the game. Helped out even less that his only good, flexible option is his Nair with nothing else good to fall back on.

It doesn't even work in comparison to other gimmicks with drawbacks since they usually that have some workaround:

-Run out of Ink that weakness and takes away some moves? Just refill a little of it.
-Nana is dead? You still fight and make the most of your remaining stock.
-No Pikmin? Just pluck more.

-Belly Armor took too many hits? Better pray the opponent screws up...

Don't remember who said Gut Check's blindspot was fine, failing to cover his back and lacking a B-Reverse property is a passable drawback to a strong counter. But failing to even cover his head on a character with limited anti-airs in a game where landing aerials are so strong isn't reasonable.
Gut Check's powerful applications don't matter if you can't even use the counter.
belly armor varies in terms of effectiveness. some characters can one-shot it. but there are some that are almost never gonna break it unless something wierd happens.
 

Nate1080

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Give :ultsimon::ultrichter: some credit. They have something most zoners wish they had, an amazing midrange game. Fair/bair, ftilt, dtilt, Holy water, dash attack, and down smash all have the ability to threaten opponents in the midrange. Add it to a decent CQC/boxing game with f5 disjointed jab, dtilt again, f6 up-b, nair, and down air, and you realize that this character can totally threaten opponents in way that most zoners wish they could. I will admit that being slow with a bad recovery is a recipe that consistently fails in Smash but Belmont has too much going for him for that.
Tbh, this entire post feels like you’re speaking from looking at frame data and just looking at random gameplay of his moves instead of from experience of actually playing him.

I’ve had extended experience playing him.

While he does indeed have some neat gimmicks and moves, 1) so does roughly 80%+ of the roster, so what makes him special? and 2) he only beats people that don’t (or can’t) pressure him. Belmonts do terribly under pressure and when they can’t maintain center stage, and from experience they’re not even that good at maintaining their ideal position unless the opponent is falling for every single gimmick they throw at them...literally. You have to work pretty hard to keep your opponent in the vortex of items and the whip.

Their CQC/boxing game is trash in practice, there’s almost no good reward for it outside of up-B; up-B is honestly the only good “get off me” option he has, jab and nair don’t lead into anything meaningful or safe. Jab and nair just put damage on them, they don’t push them away from you. Belmont wants to push them away.

The whip is a joke. A meme imo. Razor thin hitbox and barely attaches to the stage when off stage (even if you’re relatively close to it). Loses straight up to shield/parry. It is good for controlling space, I’ll give it that much, but it’s hitboxes away from the tip make it much less threatening imo and make it easier for the opponent to find ways to approach you/break your zoning game. Literally one mistake with the whip can cost you a stock if not a whole game.

The item game can be really good, especially in a ledge trapping situation, but their lack luster frame data and vulnerability to shields just create holes in his zoning game, especially combined with the issues of the whip.


Tbh, he doesn’t even feel like a good zoner in practice when on paper he should be bonkers.

He’s good at ledge trapping, establishing space and putting people into a vortex...that’s it really. At best a counter pick option, but Idk what match ups Belmonts do well in that other characters can’t do better or easier. In practice, it’s easy to see why he’s on the lower end of mid-tier if not outright low tier. His entire game is swiss cheese when his archetype demands that it be tight and consistent.
 

BitBitio

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Tbh, this entire post feels like you’re speaking from looking at frame data and just looking at random gameplay of his moves instead of from experience of actually playing him.

I’ve had extended experience playing him.

While he does indeed have some neat gimmicks and moves, 1) so does roughly 80%+ of the roster, so what makes him special? and 2) he only beats people that don’t (or can’t) pressure him. Belmonts do terribly under pressure and when they can’t maintain center stage, and from experience they’re not even that good at maintaining their ideal position unless the opponent is falling for every single gimmick they throw at them...literally. You have to work pretty hard to keep your opponent in the vortex of items and the whip.

Their CQC/boxing game is trash in practice, there’s almost no good reward for it outside of up-B; up-B is honestly the only good “get off me” option he has, jab and nair don’t lead into anything meaningful or safe. Jab and nair just put damage on them, they don’t push them away from you. Belmont wants to push them away.

The whip is a joke. A meme imo. Razor thin hitbox and barely attaches to the stage when off stage (even if you’re relatively close to it). Loses straight up to shield/parry. It is good for controlling space, I’ll give it that much, but it’s hitboxes away from the tip make it much less threatening imo and make it easier for the opponent to find ways to approach you/break your zoning game. Literally one mistake with the whip can cost you a stock if not a whole game.

The item game can be really good, especially in a ledge trapping situation, but their lack luster frame data and vulnerability to shields just create holes in his zoning game, especially combined with the issues of the whip.


Tbh, he doesn’t even feel like a good zoner in practice when on paper he should be bonkers.

He’s good at ledge trapping, establishing space and putting people into a vortex...that’s it really. At best a counter pick option, but Idk what match ups Belmonts do well in that other characters can’t do better or easier. In practice, it’s easy to see why he’s on the lower end of mid-tier if not outright low tier. His entire game is swiss cheese when his archetype demands that it be tight and consistent.
At midrange, he has the best tools of any zoner IMHO. Holy water sets up KOs and combos. Dash attack crosses up on shield and is disjointed. Down smash KOs and catches rolls. Ftilt walls out pretty much anybody with amazing range and safety. Fair and bair also wall opponents out well. Dtilt sets up edgeguards and gets him out of pressure situations. Additionally, jab and nair work as get off me tools and that’s all he needs.

And hey, I never said he’s high tier. Definitely mid tier, but not low tier man. Again, he has too many tools.
 

DungeonMaster

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Give :ultsimon::ultrichter: some credit. They have something most zoners wish they had, an amazing midrange game. Fair/bair, ftilt, dtilt, Holy water, dash attack, and down smash all have the ability to threaten opponents in the midrange. Add it to a decent CQC/boxing game with f5 disjointed jab, dtilt again, f6 up-b, nair, and down air, and you realize that this character can totally threaten opponents in way that most zoners wish they could. I will admit that being slow with a bad recovery is a recipe that consistently fails in Smash but Belmont has too much going for him for that.
So it's been nearly a year since I was first ranting about how bad the Belmonts are and so it's worth an update, and to explain to those who just look at his paper stats and say "looks great", because trust me and the others who know better, it's really quite bad.
It's NOT random that Belmont has completely fallen off a cliff in the meta.

I'll go over your above quoted points and then add some important stuff.

F-air/Bair these moves have problems due to the very thin hitboxes. They are not *really* zoning tools, they are more like hard read tools. A simple example that I use is is Lucina, omnipresent tournament and online. Scenario: Lucina runs towards Belmont. Belmont chooses to do a rising f-air/b-air. Because Lucina crouches during her run animation so a rising standard fair will miss. A rising up-angled fair will miss. Only a rising down angled f-air will hit. Now lucina chooses to short hop n-air. A rising down angled f-air will miss. Only a straight or angled up f-air will hit. If you miss, then they are in. Her run is fast enough and her reach sufficient that you can definitely be hit (even grabbed).
So the aerial whip is distinctly NOT like throwing out a projectile to cover an approach option and then reacting to the opponent trying to circumvent it. It is NOT like say duck hunt's can as an extreme example of strong space denial tool. The aerial whip is a commitment, it's a read, it can go well and feel oppressive if you read their movement, or fail miserably if they read your own option selections. As for the "reward" for getting whip reads, it feels literally like a wet noodle after a few hits and opponents routinely live to 160+ because the kill power is soooo low even when tippered (Marth f-smash, this is not).
It also does diddle squat to shield, and despite the long thin hitbox, rarely if ever shield pokes. If you get parried, a universal mechanic, bad times. Run-up-shield is trivial counterplay. Tethers grab characters can run-up-shield and shield-grab you, straight out of shield.
F-air is active 1 frame, only 1, and B-air has 2. It's also 14 frame startup. It is not zoning, it's guessing.

F-tilt - this is a good move, even a great move, except that some characters are essentially immune to it, and problems... The Rats and squirtle can literally run under it, right at you, no joke, they literally don't care. But that's not where the problems stop, because there are tons of crouches and pancaking animations from landing aerials that slide right the f-under it. It's active 2 frames. You can work around *some* of this, eventually, with a lot of matchup knowledge and painful losses. When it works, it's great, when it doesn't work and you die from it, you want to throw your controller into the screen. Trust me.

D-tilt exposes hurtbox first. Look at the move on ultimateframedata.com his entire foot is hurtbox sticking out with the hitbox trailing the leg. D-tilt will outright lose to literally any hitbox in front of it, categorically anything. It doesn't trade, doesn't clank, Belmont loses outright.

Holy water. OMG holy water. At game launch what a move. Half a year in things got worse. A full year in and holy water is... bad. Really bad.
You don't need to take my word for it, here's how bad the holy water ledge-trap has become: T3Dome, one of the few remaining Belmonts just posted a ledge trapping guide and holy water is so bad at ledge trapping we're down to using the damn cross to cover its deficiencies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3-l51XaZq8
That is literally the conclusion - if the opponent knows the matchup, it's garbage. It does not work past a certain level and skill, flat out. The timing gaps are too large.
If the opponent knows the matchup holy water is unsafe on shield, if they shield they can jump out and grab the holy water and then use it against you.
It's unsafe on approaching aerials: https://youtu.be/hB3DXFH4h-E
It's even unsafe on HIT with certain animations, they can literally regrab it and kill you: https://youtu.be/Aj-spXI3cqg
It has literally none of the good properties of the other "fire" moves like arc-fire or pk-fire and tons and tons of downsides. It's an awful move.

Down-smash is his FASTEST smash attack at frame 14. This means he cannot under any circumstances kill punish with a smash attack unless the opponent is in nearly a 1/4 second of lag. It's awful. People can do all sorts of seemingly stupid stuff, which literally would never work on a character who's tilts can kill at reasonable percents or have fast enough smash attacks. But Belmont is often just "well I guess I'm going to have to f-tilt him away..." It's infuriating, people can play recklessly and you can't hard punish them. Mid level players don't know this, but good players do. They know that at worst it's a neutral reset, they are not going to die for their arrogance.
Up-smash is borderline useless, you'll never hit anything in the air with it, super slow, super thin, it's basically only used as a holy water punish mid-stage and for idiots who get hit by returning cross.
F-smash extends hurtbox in fact all of his attacks do. So his "range" is actually not that great, there's a price to pay if there's invincibility frames or anything like a counter: https://youtu.be/I7uQT2wTo0M and https://youtu.be/A0fgQK91lQY

I can get you clips of little mac aerials beating out Simon's nair. It's hilarious. It's sad. The little circles don't protect him very well at all. https://youtu.be/fp2ZWv5Pwk8
D-air, like d-tilt look at ultimate frame data, the foot is completely exposed. Hurtbox goes first, loses to literally everything under the sun. There is literally no upwards hitbox in the entire game that d-air will beat. You CANNOT land. Forget about it.

And finally we come to cross and axe. Axe in neutral is literally a meme on the Belmont discord. Forget about it, full second endlag.
Do you know what really competent players do to weak slow projectiles? Here's what they do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kQuagB17hg#t=691
Timestamped.
They swat them out of the damn air. The % damage these things do is pathetic. The outright LOSE to piles of moves. 32% damage charge shot is not a part of the Belmont kit.

The character needs SERIOUS buffs. He's probably bottom 5. He can be improved, with more active frames, better kill power, better damage, it's not all lost but as of 7.0, he's probably bottom 5.
 
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Krysco

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So it's been nearly a year since I was first ranting about how bad the Belmonts are and so it's worth an update, and to explain to those who just look at his paper stats and say "looks great", because trust me and the others who know better, it's really quite bad.
It's NOT random that Belmont has completely fallen off a cliff in the meta.

I'll go over your above quoted points and then add some important stuff.

F-air/Bair these moves have problems due to the very thin hitboxes. They are not *really* zoning tools, they are more like hard read tools. A simple example that I use is is Lucina, omnipresent tournament and online. Scenario: Lucina runs towards Belmont. Belmont chooses to do a rising f-air/b-air. Because Lucina crouches during her run animation so a rising standard fair will miss. A rising up-angled fair will miss. Only a rising down angled f-air will hit. Now lucina chooses to short hop n-air. A rising down angled f-air will miss. Only a straight or angled up f-air will hit. If you miss, then they are in. Her run is fast enough and her reach sufficient that you can definitely be hit (even grabbed).
So the aerial whip is distinctly NOT like throwing out a projectile to cover an approach option and then reacting to the opponent trying to circumvent it. It is NOT like say duck hunt's can as an extreme example of strong space denial tool. The aerial whip is a commitment, it's a read, it can go well and feel oppressive if you read their movement, or fail miserably if they read your own option selections. As for the "reward" for getting whip reads, it feels literally like a wet noodle after a few hits and opponents routinely live to 160+ because the kill power is soooo low even when tippered (Marth f-smash, this is not).
It also does diddle squat to shield, and despite the long thin hitbox, rarely if ever shield pokes. If you get parried, a universal mechanic, bad times. Run-up-shield is trivial counterplay. Tethers grab characters can run-up-shield and shield-grab you, straight out of shield.
F-air is active 1 frame, only 1, and B-air has 2. It's also 14 frame startup. It is not zoning, it's guessing.

F-tilt - this is a good move, even a great move, except that some characters are essentially immune to it, and problems... The Rats and squirtle can literally run under it, right at you, no joke, they literally don't care. But that's not where the problems stop, because there are tons of crouches and pancaking animations from landing aerials that slide right the f-under it. It's active 2 frames. You can work around *some* of this, eventually, with a lot of matchup knowledge and painful losses. When it works, it's great, when it doesn't work and you die from it, you want to throw your controller into the screen. Trust me.

D-tilt exposes hurtbox first. Look at the move on ultimateframedata.com his entire foot is hurtbox sticking out with the hitbox trailing the leg. D-tilt will outright lose to literally any hitbox in front of it, categorically anything. It doesn't trade, doesn't clank, Belmont loses outright.

Holy water. OMG holy water. At game launch what a move. Half a year in things got worse. A full year in and holy water is... bad. Really bad.
You don't need to take my word for it, here's how bad the holy water ledge-trap has become: T3Dome, one of the few remaining Belmonts just posted a ledge trapping guide and holy water is so bad at ledge trapping we're down to using the damn cross to cover its deficiencies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3-l51XaZq8
That is literally the conclusion - if the opponent knows the matchup, it's garbage. It does not work past a certain level and skill, flat out. The timing gaps are too large.
If the opponent knows the matchup holy water is unsafe on shield, if they shield they can jump out and grab the holy water and then use it against you.
It's unsafe on approaching aerials: https://youtu.be/hB3DXFH4h-E
It's even unsafe on HIT with certain animations, they can literally regrab it and kill you: https://youtu.be/Aj-spXI3cqg
It has literally none of the good properties of the other "fire" moves like arc-fire or pk-fire and tons and tons of downsides. It's an awful move.

Down-smash is his FASTEST smash attack at frame 14. This means he cannot under any circumstances kill punish with a smash attack unless the opponent is in nearly a 1/4 second of lag. It's awful. People can do all sorts of seemingly stupid stuff, which literally would never work on a character who's tilts can kill at reasonable percents or have fast enough smash attacks. But Belmont is often just "well I guess I'm going to have to f-tilt him away..." It's infuriating, people can play recklessly and you can't hard punish them. Mid level players don't know this, but good players do. They know that at worst it's a neutral reset, they are not going to die for their arrogance.
Up-smash is borderline useless, you'll never hit anything in the air with it, super slow, super thin, it's basically only used as a holy water punish mid-stage and for idiots who get hit by returning cross.
F-smash extends hurtbox in fact all of his attacks do. So his "range" is actually not that great, there's a price to pay if there's invincibility frames or anything like a counter: https://youtu.be/I7uQT2wTo0M and https://youtu.be/A0fgQK91lQY

I can get you clips of little mac aerials beating out Simon's nair. It's hilarious. It's sad. The little circles don't protect him very well at all. https://youtu.be/fp2ZWv5Pwk8
D-air, like d-tilt look at ultimate frame data, the foot is completely exposed. Hurtbox goes first, loses to literally everything under the sun. There is literally no upwards hitbox in the entire game that d-air will beat. You CANNOT land. Forget about it.

And finally we come to cross and axe. Axe in neutral is literally a meme on the Belmont discord. Forget about it, full second endlag.
Do you know what really competent players do to weak slow projectiles? Here's what they do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kQuagB17hg#t=691
Timestamped.
They swat them out of the damn air. The % damage these things do is pathetic. The outright LOSE to piles of moves. 32% damage charge shot is not a part of the Belmont kit.

The character needs SERIOUS buffs. He's probably bottom 5. He can be improved, with more active frames, better kill power, better damage, it's not all lost but as of 7.0, he's probably bottom 5.
Couple nitpicks with an otherwise great post. For one, you mention that Pichu, Pikachu and Squirtle can run right under ftilt. I tested it and wasn't able to get any of them to, not with their initial dash or their run animations. Pichu can't even crouch under it. Pikachu can crouch and crawl forwards under it and Squirtle can crouch under it but if he crawls while the hitbox is out, it hits him. There might be some specific frames of animation where ftilt would miss, like the frames of Inkling's dash where they're in the ground. I am sure pancaking is absolutely an issue for the move though.

For dtilt, you mention the hurtbox being exposed past the hitbox. Perhaps my understanding is wrong or maybe the site is incorrect but unless I'm mistaken, the foot doesn't actually have a hurtbox tied to it.
Dtilt1 Hurtbox.png

Dtilt1 Hurtbox2.png
The grey bubbles should be their hurtbox, yeah? And for the Belmonts, it doesn't cover the foot, with the grey bubbles at the bottom of the leg being partly inside the red bubbles which are the hitboxes. I won't deny that it's still unimpressive and could easily lose to aerials or any grounded move that beats out it's measly 5%. Granted, dtilt is a 2 part move and the second portion of the move does have the issue you mentioned.
Dtilt2 Hurtbox1.png

Dtilt2 Hurtbox2.png
First image being the first frame that dtilt 2 is active and some of the hurtbox does extend past the hitbox with the second image being the last frame of the initial hitbox before the late hit comes out, showing that it eventually overlaps with the hurtbox aside from the knee hurtbox still sticking out.

With Holy Water, this isn't so much a nitpick but rather an interesting observation. With that clip that shows the bottle for Holy Water hitting Mii Gunner as it goes offstage and then getting caught right after, that appears to be a unique issue with the move as far as item based moves go. Most other character produced items will either bounce off an opponent after hitting them (Link bombs, Gyro, Banana Peel, Turnips etc) or will disappear upon contact (Yink/Tink bombs, Banjo Grenade Egg). The only items I can think of that don't bounce off or disappear after landing are Mega Man's Metal Blade which has a hitbox every 6 frames and some of Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit which have enough hitstun to them that the opponent can't simply catch them after being hit. That clip was on Yoshi's Island Brawl as well which has incredibly steep slants at the edges so I wouldn't be surprised if setting up Holy Water at ledge on that stage is incredibly difficult, if not impossible.

Dair does more clearly show that hurtbox issue compared to dtilt, especially since it's present throughout the entire move
Early Dair Hurtbox.png

Late Dair Hurtbox.png
Even the larger late hit doesn't fully cover the hurtbox. That being said, I'm curious and perhaps you'd know the answer to this but how come despite this hurtbox poking out, Belmont dair is able to bounce off projectiles so seamlessly? There's the well known case of it bouncing off a Pikmin but I've also seen it bounce off a Link arrow and another projectile that I can't recall. Is it just a case of the hitbox on the projectiles not being large enough to hit the hurtbox before making contact with the dair hitbox?

Lastly with the comment on the axe, I was actually surprised from testing how many moves are able to beat it. I first tested Chrom's full hop uair since he's my main and I could easily see him being vulnerable to an axe hit while recovering and even it was enough to beat out the axe, being a 7.6% aerial against a 15% projectile. The axe only beating moves that deal less than 7% is definitely a big deal, especially since if you're hit offstage, you don't suffer from the short hop multiplier at all. Only a couple uairs like Pika's, MK's and late Isabelle's can't beat it along with multihits. Staling would likely also affect some moves.

I do agree with your post overall that Belmonts are incredibly mediocre and potentially bottom 5. Just gotta hope they get buffed despite how annoying they can be online, similar to Zelda and Samus.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
IMO, :ultsimon::ultrichter: are fine. They aren't great and are definitely in the lower half of the roster, but they are nowhere near as underwhelming as the low tiers like :ultganondorf: and :ultincineroar:.

They do have issues, and I'm not going to ignore that. They have poor movement stats (low running speed, poor initial dash, poor walking speed, horrible traction, below average air speed, awful air acceleration, high fall speed, average gravity, high fast fall speed, high weight, and are able to crawl). Their stats are pretty comparable to characters like :ultkrool: and :ultlink: (Belmonts are probably worse to be honest) which leads to their disadvantage state being pretty bad. They also have one of the worst recoveries in the game with only a short distanced up-b and limited tether based moves to recover with. Finally, the Belmonts can struggle a lot against characters with reflectors (:ultfalco::ultzelda: and :ultwolf: come to mind) and rushdown characters that can quickly move through their wall of projectiles and ranged moves to reach them (:ultroy::ultpikachu::ultchrom: and :ultfox: are pretty good examples of this).


However, the Belmonts do have a lot going for them that I think is worth mentioning. Most of their moves (projectiles and whip attacks) deal quite a bit of damage and come out decently fast, giving them a great zoning game and allow them to set up a strong wall that is hard for a lot of characters to get through. Despite their keep away game and long ranged options being good, their close and mid range options aren't too bad either. N-air, f-tilt, d-smash, and jab all have decent range and come out decently fast, meaning that they can sometimes force an opponent out of their face if they manage to get in. Their ledgetrapping is amazing as well, something that is definitely worth mentioning. Down-b, downward angled f-smash and f-air, side-b, and neutral-b can all cover the ledge incredibly well, forcing the opponent to make an option which can be punished by an f-smash, up-smash, or f-air. Their juggling game is also passable thanks to up-air and neutral-b. They do have some combos using n-air, d-air, f-air, and their projectiles, but that really isn't the focus of their gameplan. Finally, d-tilt is a good burst option that can knock the opponent offstage to set up for an edgeguard or ledgetrap.

In terms of matchup spread, they also feel like mid tiers to me (but probably some of the most inconsistent ones).

They do pretty good against :ultluigi::ultpeach::ulticeclimbers::ultolimar::ult_terry:, but there are some characters that can negate a lot of their tools (:ultroy::ultjoker::ultpalutena::ultchrom::ultfox::ultfalco::ultwolf::ultzss:), along with a few more volatile matchups that are heavily momentum based (:ultmario::ultlucina::ultzelda::ultbayonetta::ultgnw::ultbowser:), even if they aren't definitely losing or winning. Finally, there's :ultpikachu: and :ultpichu:who are small enough to the point where they are nearly impossible for the Belmonts to hit and can easily punish the Belmonts for mistiming or misjudging anything they do. They also can edgeguard the Belmont's fairly easily and are hard for Belmonts to kill due to being able to low-profile moves like f-air.

IMO, the Belmonts are incredibly polarizing, but they have enough decent MUs in the current meta and strong enough tools in their kit to be really effective counterpicks, especially if :ultluigi: and :ultgnw: keep getting strong results and become more common as time goes on. And even if they are facing a losing MU, I think they always have the tools to make a comeback, even if it's an uphill battle. There are more effective zoners to play, but I think their incredible ledgetrapping and their solid mid/close range options give players a reason to use them over other zoners/trappers like :ultlink:.
 
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BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
IMO, :ultsimon::ultrichter: are fine. They aren't great and are definitely in the lower half of the roster, but they are nowhere near as underwhelming as the low tiers like :ultganondorf: and :ultincineroar:.

They do have issues, and I'm not going to ignore that. They have poor movement stats (low running speed, poor initial dash, poor walking speed, horrible traction, below average air speed, awful air acceleration, high fall speed, average gravity, high fast fall speed, high weight, and are able to crawl). Their stats are pretty comparable to characters like :ultkrool: and :ultlink: (Belmonts are probably worse to be honest) which leads to their disadvantage state being pretty bad. They also have one of the worst recoveries in the game with only a short distanced up-b and limited tether based moves to recover with. Finally, the Belmonts can struggle a lot against characters with reflectors (:ultfalco::ultzelda: and :ultwolf: come to mind) and rushdown characters that can quickly move through their wall of projectiles and ranged moves to reach them (:ultroy::ultpikachu::ultchrom: and :ultfox: are pretty good examples of this).


However, the Belmonts do have a lot going for them that I think is worth mentioning. Most of their moves (projectiles and whip attacks) deal quite a bit of damage and come out decently fast, giving them a great zoning game and allow them to set up a strong wall that is hard for a lot of characters to get through. Despite their keep away game and long ranged options being good, their close and mid range options aren't too bad either. N-air, f-tilt, d-smash, and jab all have decent range and come out decently fast, meaning that they can sometimes force an opponent out of their face if they manage to get in. Their ledgetrapping is amazing as well, something that is definitely worth mentioning. Down-b, downward angled f-smash and f-air, side-b, and neutral-b can all cover the ledge incredibly well, forcing the opponent to make an option which can be punished by an f-smash, up-smash, or f-air. Their juggling game is also passable thanks to up-air and neutral-b. They do have some combos using n-air, d-air, f-air, and their projectiles, but that really isn't the focus of their gameplan. Finally, d-tilt is a good burst option that can knock the opponent offstage to set up for an edgeguard or ledgetrap.

In terms of matchup spread, they also feel like mid tiers to me (but probably some of the most inconsistent ones).

They do pretty good against :ultluigi::ultpeach::ulticeclimbers::ultolimar::ult_terry:, but there are some characters that can negate a lot of their tools (:ultroy::ultjoker::ultpalutena::ultchrom::ultfox::ultfalco::ultwolf::ultzss:), along with a few more volatile matchups that are heavily momentum based (:ultmario::ultlucina::ultzelda::ultbayonetta::ultgnw::ultbowser:), even if they aren't definitely losing or winning. Finally, there's :ultpikachu: and :ultpichu:who are small enough to the point where they are nearly impossible for the Belmonts to hit and can easily punish the Belmonts for mistiming or misjudging anything they do. They also can edgeguard the Belmont's fairly easily and are hard for Belmonts to kill due to being able to low-profile moves like f-air.

IMO, the Belmonts are incredibly polarizing, but they have enough decent MUs in the current meta and strong enough tools in their kit to be really effective counterpicks, especially if :ultluigi: and :ultgnw: keep getting strong results and become more common as time goes on. And even if they are facing a losing MU, I think they always have the tools to make a comeback, even if it's an uphill battle. There are more effective zoners to play, but I think their incredible ledgetrapping and their solid mid/close range options give players a reason to use them over other zoners/trappers like :ultlink:.
I agree with all of that. One thing I will say is that some of the best zoners like :ultrob::ultpacman::ultmegaman: are not only better but way more fun, attractive to play characters and will always take away from Belmont’s results. Unless they’re nerfed
 

Emblem Lord

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So it's been nearly a year since I was first ranting about how bad the Belmonts are and so it's worth an update, and to explain to those who just look at his paper stats and say "looks great", because trust me and the others who know better, it's really quite bad.
It's NOT random that Belmont has completely fallen off a cliff in the meta.

I'll go over your above quoted points and then add some important stuff.

F-air/Bair these moves have problems due to the very thin hitboxes. They are not *really* zoning tools, they are more like hard read tools. A simple example that I use is is Lucina, omnipresent tournament and online. Scenario: Lucina runs towards Belmont. Belmont chooses to do a rising f-air/b-air. Because Lucina crouches during her run animation so a rising standard fair will miss. A rising up-angled fair will miss. Only a rising down angled f-air will hit. Now lucina chooses to short hop n-air. A rising down angled f-air will miss. Only a straight or angled up f-air will hit. If you miss, then they are in. Her run is fast enough and her reach sufficient that you can definitely be hit (even grabbed).
So the aerial whip is distinctly NOT like throwing out a projectile to cover an approach option and then reacting to the opponent trying to circumvent it. It is NOT like say duck hunt's can as an extreme example of strong space denial tool. The aerial whip is a commitment, it's a read, it can go well and feel oppressive if you read their movement, or fail miserably if they read your own option selections. As for the "reward" for getting whip reads, it feels literally like a wet noodle after a few hits and opponents routinely live to 160+ because the kill power is soooo low even when tippered (Marth f-smash, this is not).
It also does diddle squat to shield, and despite the long thin hitbox, rarely if ever shield pokes. If you get parried, a universal mechanic, bad times. Run-up-shield is trivial counterplay. Tethers grab characters can run-up-shield and shield-grab you, straight out of shield.
F-air is active 1 frame, only 1, and B-air has 2. It's also 14 frame startup. It is not zoning, it's guessing.

F-tilt - this is a good move, even a great move, except that some characters are essentially immune to it, and problems... The Rats and squirtle can literally run under it, right at you, no joke, they literally don't care. But that's not where the problems stop, because there are tons of crouches and pancaking animations from landing aerials that slide right the f-under it. It's active 2 frames. You can work around *some* of this, eventually, with a lot of matchup knowledge and painful losses. When it works, it's great, when it doesn't work and you die from it, you want to throw your controller into the screen. Trust me.

D-tilt exposes hurtbox first. Look at the move on ultimateframedata.com his entire foot is hurtbox sticking out with the hitbox trailing the leg. D-tilt will outright lose to literally any hitbox in front of it, categorically anything. It doesn't trade, doesn't clank, Belmont loses outright.

Holy water. OMG holy water. At game launch what a move. Half a year in things got worse. A full year in and holy water is... bad. Really bad.
You don't need to take my word for it, here's how bad the holy water ledge-trap has become: T3Dome, one of the few remaining Belmonts just posted a ledge trapping guide and holy water is so bad at ledge trapping we're down to using the damn cross to cover its deficiencies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3-l51XaZq8
That is literally the conclusion - if the opponent knows the matchup, it's garbage. It does not work past a certain level and skill, flat out. The timing gaps are too large.
If the opponent knows the matchup holy water is unsafe on shield, if they shield they can jump out and grab the holy water and then use it against you.
It's unsafe on approaching aerials: https://youtu.be/hB3DXFH4h-E
It's even unsafe on HIT with certain animations, they can literally regrab it and kill you: https://youtu.be/Aj-spXI3cqg
It has literally none of the good properties of the other "fire" moves like arc-fire or pk-fire and tons and tons of downsides. It's an awful move.

Down-smash is his FASTEST smash attack at frame 14. This means he cannot under any circumstances kill punish with a smash attack unless the opponent is in nearly a 1/4 second of lag. It's awful. People can do all sorts of seemingly stupid stuff, which literally would never work on a character who's tilts can kill at reasonable percents or have fast enough smash attacks. But Belmont is often just "well I guess I'm going to have to f-tilt him away..." It's infuriating, people can play recklessly and you can't hard punish them. Mid level players don't know this, but good players do. They know that at worst it's a neutral reset, they are not going to die for their arrogance.
Up-smash is borderline useless, you'll never hit anything in the air with it, super slow, super thin, it's basically only used as a holy water punish mid-stage and for idiots who get hit by returning cross.
F-smash extends hurtbox in fact all of his attacks do. So his "range" is actually not that great, there's a price to pay if there's invincibility frames or anything like a counter: https://youtu.be/I7uQT2wTo0M and https://youtu.be/A0fgQK91lQY

I can get you clips of little mac aerials beating out Simon's nair. It's hilarious. It's sad. The little circles don't protect him very well at all. https://youtu.be/fp2ZWv5Pwk8
D-air, like d-tilt look at ultimate frame data, the foot is completely exposed. Hurtbox goes first, loses to literally everything under the sun. There is literally no upwards hitbox in the entire game that d-air will beat. You CANNOT land. Forget about it.

And finally we come to cross and axe. Axe in neutral is literally a meme on the Belmont discord. Forget about it, full second endlag.
Do you know what really competent players do to weak slow projectiles? Here's what they do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kQuagB17hg#t=691
Timestamped.
They swat them out of the damn air. The % damage these things do is pathetic. The outright LOSE to piles of moves. 32% damage charge shot is not a part of the Belmont kit.

The character needs SERIOUS buffs. He's probably bottom 5. He can be improved, with more active frames, better kill power, better damage, it's not all lost but as of 7.0, he's probably bottom 5.
You cannot buff Belmont without them invalidating heavies which they borderline do already.

Then again I am a fan of a counter-pick meta.

Meh. Go for it Nintendo.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,198
OrionStats got updated: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=1982478003

We got some... odd changes.

:ultrob: got ranked 1st before, but now has a notable point lead ahead of everyone else. It currently has 296 points (almost broke the 300 point threshold), while Wolf, who is still 2nd, has 274.5 points.
:ultpalutena: is now ranked above :ultjoker: to be 4th in the rankings.
:ultpeach::ultzss: have now entered the realm of at least 200 points.
:ultfox: has now outranked :ultgreninja: to break into the top 10.
:ultroy: has dropped below :ultmario:, now being 1 spot above :ultlucina: like he was two weekends ago.
:ultchrom: has risen even further to be tied with :ultolimar: for 17th. He is now only 4 spots below Roy (but still has about 50 points differing them).
:ultyounglink: has risen to 22nd in the rankings thanks to his recent good placements in events, even if the events themselves aren't all that big.
This in-turn, makes him place over 10 spots higher than the second highest Link, which is BotW Link at 34th.
:ultshulk::ultpichu: have both taken a notable drop this weekend, with Shulk now being 25th and Pichu at a very notable 27th. Pichu is now only 3 drops ahead of Pikachu, who is currently at 30th. The rats aren't doing very well this season so far relative to their reception.
:ulthero:, for some reason, has risen to 48th. Not sure who placed well with Hero to make him rise that high, but ok then.
:ultrobin:, likely due to his mains not being very active lately, has dropped to 50th.
:ultcorrinf: for some reason, points currently remain at 13.5, but yet is ranked above :ultbrawler::ultvillager::ultmewtwo: who is displayed to have more points than her, which in turn rises her placement to 61st.
This may be an error in the point counter, but considering that Corrin's results hasn't changed since Glitch 8-ish, and there was no notable Corrin placements in the PGR events this weekend, this may a placing error.
Not sure about this one, so I will have to wait and see until the error is corrected.


DLC Rankings (3/10/20):
:ultjoker:(5th) > :ult_terry:(39th) > :ultbyleth:(45th) > :ulthero:(48th) > :ultbanjokazooie:(54th) > :ultpiranha:(71st)

Not too much has changed. Joker and Byleth each dropped by 1 spot, and Hero rose by a few spots.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,895
Location
Colorado
I agree Belmont's mid tier but don't have anything to add that hasn't been said.
DLC Rankings (3/10/20):
:ultjoker:(5th) > :ult_terry:(39th) > :ultbyleth:(45th) > :ulthero:(48th) > :ultbanjokazooie:(54th) > :ultpiranha:(71st)

Not too much has changed. Joker and Byleth each dropped by 1 spot, and Hero rose by a few spots.
It's interesting :ultbanjokazooie: isn't doing very well. I considered him the 3rd best DLC character after Joker and Terry; although Byleth probably got a boost for being a shiny new toy. Banjo can be a challenging character to deal with at first, in large part due to the wonder wing move. WW breaks through all zoning and forces you to play a game of not commiting to stratedgies that are safe vs everyone else. Although Charizard's flare blits does this too. At first I lost 3-0 to Banjo but have taken the latest 2 sets. Banjo is somewhat of a gimicky character who's not as strong as I first thought. That doesn't mean he's bad however. He's a solid zoner and WW really ties his game together in a similar way that revenge does for Incineroar. WW gives Banjo the option to not only be a zoner but a dangerous zone breaker at mid range. 5 WWs per stock is plenty; it mainly keeps him from being spammy with it. Overall I think Banjo can preform better but falls into the obscurity pit of being good but there are better choices so he doesn't get a lot of attention. He can say hi to Ike while he's down there.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,198
It's interesting :ultbanjokazooie: isn't doing very well. I considered him the 3rd best DLC character after Joker and Terry; although Byleth probably got a boost for being a shiny new toy. Banjo can be a challenging character to deal with at first, in large part due to the wonder wing move. WW breaks through all zoning and forces you to play a game of not commiting to stratedgies that are safe vs everyone else. Although Charizard's flare blits does this too. At first I lost 3-0 to Banjo but have taken the latest 2 sets. Banjo is somewhat of a gimicky character who's not as strong as I first thought. That doesn't mean he's bad however. He's a solid zoner and WW really ties his game together in a similar way that revenge does for Incineroar. WW gives Banjo the option to not only be a zoner but a dangerous zone breaker at mid range. 5 WWs per stock is plenty; it mainly keeps him from being spammy with it. Overall I think Banjo can preform better but falls into the obscurity pit of being good but there are better choices so he doesn't get a lot of attention. He can say hi to Ike while he's down there.
I do think he is better than :ulthero:, as well as being a mid tier character, but whether he is better than :ultbyleth: or not is sort of disputable (I think the two right now are around the same position tiering wise).

:ultbanjokazooie: sort of has the :ultpit: syndrome of being not too interesting moveset wise, and having stats across the board that are merely ok but not great.
Decent, but not great range; ok, but not game-breaking damage output; some issues KO'ing at times when you don't land that one move just right.

Wonderwing is the main wow factor of the character, and while it is a very useful tool, with matchup experience it isn't the most overwhelming thing to deal with. It leaves Banjo very vulnerable if it whiffs are if shielded. It is also his main wow factor, outside of niche Egg Grenade setups that are rarely going to happen.

Also, :ultsnake: and :ultsamus: exists, the former basically has better versions of what pretty much everything Banjo brings to the table (aside from Wonderwing, but Snake's dash attack is a more consistent tool overall), while the latter basically pulls off Banjo's playstyle much more effectively.

Banjo is definitely not a bad character, but as a whole isn't very interesting of a character, a contrast to all the hype around him being in the game.
Why pick him when :ultsnake::ultpacman::ultsamus::ultyounglink: exists in their current states. Even :ultduckhunt: has pulled off more results overall.
 

KirbySquad101

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Messages
927
EDIT: Considering what's been going on lately, this doesn't feel very appropriate to keep around anymore.

OrionStats got updated: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=1982478003

We got some... odd changes.

:ultrob: got ranked 1st before, but now has a notable point lead ahead of everyone else. It currently has 296 points (almost broke the 300 point threshold), while Wolf, who is still 2nd, has 274.5 points.
:ultpalutena: is now ranked above :ultjoker: to be 4th in the rankings.
:ultpeach::ultzss: have now entered the realm of at least 200 points.
:ultfox: has now outranked :ultgreninja: to break into the top 10.
:ultroy: has dropped below :ultmario:, now being 1 spot above :ultlucina: like he was two weekends ago.
:ultchrom: has risen even further to be tied with :ultolimar: for 17th. He is now only 4 spots below Roy (but still has about 50 points differing them).
:ultyounglink: has risen to 22nd in the rankings thanks to his recent good placements in events, even if the events themselves aren't all that big.
This in-turn, makes him place over 10 spots higher than the second highest Link, which is BotW Link at 34th.
:ultshulk::ultpichu: have both taken a notable drop this weekend, with Shulk now being 25th and Pichu at a very notable 27th. Pichu is now only 3 drops ahead of Pikachu, who is currently at 30th. The rats aren't doing very well this season so far relative to their reception.
:ulthero:, for some reason, has risen to 48th. Not sure who placed well with Hero to make him rise that high, but ok then.
:ultrobin:, likely due to his mains not being very active lately, has dropped to 50th.
:ultcorrinf: for some reason, points currently remain at 13.5, but yet is ranked above :ultbrawler::ultvillager::ultmewtwo: who is displayed to have more points than her, which in turn rises her placement to 61st.
This may be an error in the point counter, but considering that Corrin's results hasn't changed since Glitch 8-ish, and there was no notable Corrin placements in the PGR events this weekend, this may a placing error.
Not sure about this one, so I will have to wait and see until the error is corrected.


DLC Rankings (3/10/20):
:ultjoker:(5th) > :ult_terry:(39th) > :ultbyleth:(45th) > :ulthero:(48th) > :ultbanjokazooie:(54th) > :ultpiranha:(71st)

Not too much has changed. Joker and Byleth each dropped by 1 spot, and Hero rose by a few spots.
Not sure if he got from anywhere else, but Hero has a LOT of players in Mexico; there was two :ulthero: in Top 8 at Smash on the Rocks tournament (listed as a Category 2 tournament). Aside from that, NAir^ has a really good Hero secondary that he used at the tournament, and while he didn't participate, Javi's got a strong Hero secondary himself alongside his other secondaries.
 
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KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
Doth my eyes deceive me? A seeded solo-Zard main in bracket?

How have I not heard of this player before? They could be a very interesting player to study.
Oops, my bad, for some reason I thought he only used Zard ^^; I did look through some recent vods of his, and he does use all 3 in gameplay.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Seems like Ven won't compete for both Dreamland and Final Saga this month.
Still no 7.0 showings (besides Frostbite) for her since her most prominent player is more or less inactive currently (still hoping for Final Saga but he said it's very unlikely to happen).
 

DungeonMaster

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Nov 22, 2014
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Dalaeck
Krysco Krysco yeah I asked around and dug a bit and tested some but I can't seems to figure out why Belmont d-air does not get hit when the projectile would clearly otherwise hit his hurtbox. I'm thinking it may be a special detection hitbox that isn't listed. Like G&W bucket, he has a reflect hitbox and a giant overlapping absorb hitbox. It has to be something particular like that, specifically searching for projectiles within some range of his feet, it's not the damage dealing hitbox visible on ultimate frame data.
And yes, I meant d-tilt 2, although the hurtbox is criminally close to hitbox on dtilt 1 it also loses to everything under the sun.
The rats can run under the f-tilt, I'm not sure what specific frames but they definitely can.

Emblem Lord Emblem Lord Mostly true, it's more even at top level then Belmonts would care to state. See the Tea vs T3dome match linked above, it's not a complete blowout for DK.
Something I often see is how "good" Belmont is vs. other zoners, the answer is no, he's not that good. Here's a couple of matches vs Banjo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4oZp5GqPRc

Anyhow, I've said my peace for the moment about my ill fated smashballot pick. I've had Ken as my secondary for a half year and it's night and day. Rest in peace Simon.
 
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NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,339
The only real thing that's holding Banjo away from having a chance at breaking into high tier is lacking a proper kill move (and I'm eating crow on that one because when he came out I thought opposite and that his damage output was the bigger issue).

On a good day Banjo is one of the characters who I'd rank among the likes of Sonic and Snake as patience testing to go up against. He's an atypical all-rounder who unlike most characters with that distinction (Mario, Pit, etc.) prefers to play passively rather than actively, mostly because of his lack of a combo game. That's fine enough in theory; all his buttons are solid enough, he has one or two really esoteric confirms (Breegull Blaster into Up Tilt), his tilts are low-key stupid as hell which coupled with his eggs give him decent approach options, and his vertical coverage is kind of obnoxious to contend with since he can reliably mix up his fast-falls. Grenade Eggs aren't Snake Grenades, but they're still the character's equivalent of a spanner in the works. Point being at the end of the day; he can throw out attacks, and those attacks hurt.

But Wonder Wing is pretty much the crutch this character is forced to lean on when it comes to finishing his meal, and it's only really adequate at best. The limited amount he has to work with doesn't just work toward the detriment of his on-stage KO capacity (even setting aside some of its surface weaknesses like end-lag and tether vulnerability) but it nerfs his offstage game, making edgeguarding beyond the ledge a risky proposition for the character and not the most conducive way to score KOs. His down throw bury is somehow weaker than K. Rool's, making it a mixup kill option at best (depending on mash speed) until very high kill percents. His up-tilt has the power but its hitboxes are impractical. Up Smash is really close to cinching it but those horizontal hitboxes don't entirely offset that it's not the best OoS/whiff punish tool at F9 with some generous lag, which still makes it pretty alright. However, while I wouldn't call FAir a "great" kill move I would say that's the one KO move that does exactly what it needs to do and is tuned well around Banjo's strengths; some startup, decent KO power, good damage and ability to shorthop autocancel complements the fact that the character will be jumping around... a lot.

I don't think changing or buffing Wonder Wing is that much of an option. That move is limited for a good reason despite its weaknesses; it's undeniable that it actually puts Banjo's horizontal recovery at a Bayonetta-level of "impossible to edgeguard", and beyond that if he did have an infinite number of wings to go around it would turn his general game plan linear. If you want to buff Banjo, the best option I see is making one of his grounded KO options slightly stronger. A roundabout way would be to decrease the landing lag on BAir so that drag downs are possible but in general this character spends so much time in the air that I feel if you want to make him more interesting you need to look at ways to make the character stronger in areas he's not already decent in, which I'd say means to at least make one of his smash moves less laggy.
 
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Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
:ultrob: has popularity and is very common in competivevplay. Every PGR ranked tournament you see at least one?or two ROB players doing reasonabally well at minimum. I guess people finally see how good he is

:ultpikachu: low results likey were not helped due to ESAM not participating at Frostbite , the biggest tourament of the season.:ultpichu:is still more commonly seen but really lacks top-tier player rep outside of VoiD, who is no focusing on primarly :ultsheik: over Pichu now only now. Nietono did do well at Frostbite thought getting 9th place

:ultshulk: has gotten some really strong results thanks to Kome (most notabally placing 2nd at EVO Japan) However recently he has not been able to be quite as consistient

:ulthero: yeah I got nothing. His rise is as random as his playstyle is
 
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Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,336
:ulthero: yeah I got nothing. His rise is as random as his playstyle is
I know some pretty good Hero players and I'm frankly surprised it's taken this long for people to realize his potential. Despite his relatively slow frame data, he's got some insane priority on his sword attacks and pretty much all his spells are broken AF (except the obvious ones like Hocus Pocus, etc.) He's basically a faster Ganondorf with a sword and projectiles. Side B has stupid coverage and damage (25% Zapple), Neutral B does 34-37% damage fully charged and kills at around 70%, Up B has tons of utility and his plethora of broken Down B specials like Kaboom, Sizzle, Bounce, Heal, Accelerate, Zoom etc. give him potentially any tool he needs for a given match-up. The trick is being able to read and choose options in a fraction of a second. For those that can, he's busted as all ****. And don't even get me started on those ****ing crit smashes or Whack deletions at 25%. *shudder* I just hope he never gains too much prevalence or I'm gonna have to slit my wrists.
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
I recall Salem vs Light there was a brief period I was fearing Hero meta. The upB OoS is insanely good if you have a platform to land on, and it is also monstrous offstage. I remember seeing light saying something and looking rather frustrated or discouraged, and then Salem shushing him, the clear read to me was 'don't tell anyone but this character is actually broken'.


On the other hand, Salem tends to see the light in characters that may or may not actually have the sauce. Salem himself is broken so when you shellack most players it probably feels like you have found the secret. I mean all the characters in this game really feel good when you are doing well, especially if they don't know the most abusable weaknesses of your character. But then, you play someone at your level that knows the MU and all those weaknesses come screaming back... Which is how this set ended up looking, it was on the brink but Light really figured out Hero pretty hard it seemed like. As always its hard to determine how much was the player matchup and Light getting tons of momentum and also figuring out Salem's habits, but Hero went from looking broken to looking kinda solved in the span of one (long) set.


Unrelated, but to me it seems like traction isn't as a big a deal in this game with shieldgrab being weakened and usually if you want a solid OoS punish, you want a parry which I believe negates all sliding. Also aerials are generally safer, so its less like 'That is safe specifically on luigi because he goes sliding away' and more 'that is safe unless I parry anyways', so it doesn't feel as distinctive. Thoughts? I also believe everyone was brought much closer to parity on traction anyways, so the slidey characters are more of a 'his traction is actually lower' than 'Luigis shoes are actually ice blocks'.

I think the biggest difference is when you want an Usmash OoS and whether you get it in fringe situations. Charizard has always had that great OoS usmash and him not sliding much at all from strong moves is certainly a part of that... but I think the speed and hitboxes seem to matter more.
 
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blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
i remember at banjo launch arguing that making wonderwing a limited resource was a poor decision that would hurt the character long term and its definitely a factor.
i think if his grenades went forward that alone would do a lot in improving the character. overall he lacks the mechanics and unnique moveset dlc characters tend to have.
 
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