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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    584

Thinkaman

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Weren't you just talking about how we shouldn't be discussing this here?
No one else here has trouble understanding the difference between the general design of a character (which will not change) and numerical details like damage, hitbox size, landing lag, ect.

Your shtick of posting rude, contrarian one-liners that contribute nothing to the discussion has run its course and ends moving forward.



The secondary charge of Failnaught might seem niche at a glance, but it means spot-dodging is a non-solution. (This is true for most charged-held projectiles, but would not normally be the case for one with a fixed release point.

At this point my biggest concerns are OoS and the lack of boost mobility--Belmonts at least enjoy d-tilt and dair, which they get a lot of mileage out of.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Apr 11, 2016
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1,681
Byleth as of the video seems like a slighty better Corrin. But. considering Ultimate Corrin right now that kinda feels like damning though faint praise.

My biggest concern is that they have to hard-commit for many of their notable normals of killing moves. Which is not really that good a thing in the current meta. I also may see a lack of good or safe approach. I see characters like :ultsnake::ultsonic::ultpacman:once they get the stock lead, they can choose to play defensive/lame or do they typical setup play and there is not much Byleth can do about if

But who knows.. they may have some really strong kill-setups or confirms that we did not see in the footage
 
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BitBitio

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Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
Byleth is interesting. It looks like he’s a campy character, IMO. He has very long reach, and solid, safe recovery. He has good edgeguarding and two framing options (Down-B and Side-B look like they hit below the ledge) as well as some juggle combos. I think the character will revolve around camping your opponent out with the bow and the big hitboxes, then capitalizing on offstage punishes.

As far as comparing him to the other 5 DLC fighters currently released... I have no clue.
 

KakuCP9

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I think they're dandy. That bow and up-b are pretty nice for forcing engagements they cover a large area really quickly while doing decent damage and their aerial side-b helps cover blind spots fair/bair have to round out their air game. Hopefully their nair is quick enough to act as a emergency OOS cause they're probably going to be ****ed over by CQC like the Robins. I think what's going to be developed is how the Bylethes can set up their up-b into the meteor finisher on the edge of the stage or the best ranges to use side-b cause that **** has MAD range or general ledge-trapping/ edge-guarding since they look like they're pretty good at it(I imagine tippet f-smash hits ledge hangs/2 frames and grounded side-b can hit ledge jumps)
 

Tri Knight

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Byleth as of the video seems like a slighty better Corrin.
Yeah, this was my take on Byleth as well but maybe not better. His kit looks like it lends itself to playing very defensively, using long range melee attacks to keep a defensive pressure on the opponent. I also think he's gonna be scary af offstage based on what I've seen him do in the direct.

If I had any concern about his weaknesses, I would say that he'll probably be weak to rushdown with his mobility and attack speed looking a bit slow while having to deal with high committal attacks to secure on-stage KO's. But he could have a ton of potential setups that weren't displayed or even a tilt that KO's at a decent percent like Link's Ftilt.
 
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PK Gaming

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Canada
Byleth as of the video seems like a slighty better Corrin. But. considering Ultimate Corrin right now that kinda feels like damning though faint praise.
There's literally no way you can make that call. We don't know how effective Byleth's combos are. Corrin's are disappointing.

We don't know how good at KOing Byleth is. Corrin is lackluster at it.

We don't know effective Byleth's recovery is beyond the superficial "they have a tether recovery"

Right now, there isn't a whole lot I can say about Byleth. Though since they've been working on the character for 2 months~ i'm sure they went through a ton of polish.
 

ARISTOS

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Weren't you just talking about how we shouldn't be discussing this here?
Have respect for one of the GOATs.

Byleth as shown doesn't inspire a ton of confidence given some key hitboxes are more linear than they should be. Side-B seems to be a fifth "aerial" and probably one of the most important ones given it's his main anti-air/air-to-air.

Byleth probably wants flats stages overall. The most important question is how fast Nair is, as without it as others have said they'll get bulldozed by rushdown
 
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ParanoidDrone

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My day, uh...*counts*...-12 thoughts on Byleth are that he seems to have a variety of decent-to-good individual tools which may or may not end up meshing well together as a whole on account of poor mobility/OOS/frame data. When I put it that way, he actually reminds me of Robin, in an abstract if-you-squint sort of way.

Also that up special is basically Ivy Lick from Soul Calibur and TBH that makes me a bit giddy.
 
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KakuCP9

What does it mean to be strong?
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Down-B's armor appears generous enough to find use cases in things like punishing Chrom/Ike recovery; is the armor aerial? If so that's way more relevant.
Can you imagine the biblical magnitudes of salt someone would feel if they are trying to pressure the Bylethes and they armour through it and hit them with aerial down- b? Granted it wouldn't make their negative state 'good', it would make it mad corny dealing with a fusion of Falcon punch/Rock smash (unless you're Boozer or something).
 

Tri Knight

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On the other hand, it could make trading with Byleth's Down B quite threatening if it's anywhere near as strong as Falcon Punch. It would be devastating if it gets armor in the air. I wonder what his weight will be.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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Feb 12, 2018
Messages
199
An important information aside from the Byleth's is that we will have character DLC until the end of 2021, that means atleast 2 more years of support and that could mean some patches and fixes, this is a great thing because ultimate will be supported for a long time and the devs can iron out some things like hitboxes, etc. I believe half steps is still the way to go, hopeful people become less impatient for buff or nerfs.
 

Rizen

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Wait, Maister's being held back by :ultgnw:? That's news to me; I know I'm going to sound condescending here, but that's one of the most puzzling things I've heard.

- That's like saying Dark Wizzy is being held back by :ultmario: because he's a Top 20 player instead of a Top 10 player, or that Light is being held back by :ultfox: because he's not a Top 5 player, or that MVD is being held back by:ultsnake: because he's not even PGR this season. Even then... Top 10 out of over a million Smash players? The way I see it, Maister's already on top of the world. To put things in perspective... he's currently seeded FIRST at Glitch 8. An A Tier event, above Tweek, above Light, above Dabuz, etc. You can argue whether or not that's right, but if anything, it shows that Maister doesn't need to aim for the big leagues: He's already there.

.
Not really because :ultmario:'s 9th on Orion Stats. :ultgnw: is 27th. Mario's a top tier and G&W isn't. I'm saying if you don't play a top tier you're held back. Like I said look at Samsora and Glutonny in SSB4 or Tweek with Bowser Jr. The sad truth is top tiers are there for a reason.

The problem is people aren't seeing Maester as an outlier. But no other G&Ws have had anywhere near his leave of success.
 

Lacrimosa

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On the other hand, it could make trading with Byleth's Down B quite threatening if it's anywhere near as strong as Falcon Punch. It would be devastating if it gets armor in the air. I wonder what his weight will be.
Isn't that basically Charizard's rock smash then?
Let's just hope it does. Otherwise this move would be nearly unusable because getting grabbed out of it is the way to go (slower that Falcon Punch!).

I'm not that impressed by Byleth, yet. Low mobility, laggy moves with some reach. we have to see how powerfel these are, but they look rather easy to circumvent and also no tool for enemies that are further away. Yes, the bow is powerful but it's nearly unusable on stages with platforms and loses straight up against any reflector (yay). Maybe it's fast enough so you can't react to it, but chars like Fox can hold their reflector. It looks like a worse version of Link's bow and it lacks stuff likes bombs and boomerangs that may lead to an arrow hit. Not playing Link, so I dunno how he actually uses his bow.
Recovery looks great, though. And it seems you have to be careful when trying to edgeguard Byleth since it seems like she can spike you.

Anyway, first impressions (are not that great) but the build was from November, so missing hitboxes (nAir) may be fixed by now. However, the general gameplan doesn't seem all that great.
 

Tri Knight

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Isn't that basically Charizard's rock smash then?
Let's just hope it does. Otherwise this move would be nearly unusable because getting grabbed out of it is the way to go (slower that Falcon Punch!).

I'm not that impressed by Byleth, yet. Low mobility, laggy moves with some reach. we have to see how powerfel these are, but they look rather easy to circumvent and also no tool for enemies that are further away. Yes, the bow is powerful but it's nearly unusable on stages with platforms and loses straight up against any reflector (yay). Maybe it's fast enough so you can't react to it, but chars like Fox can hold their reflector. It looks like a worse version of Link's bow and it lacks stuff likes bombs and boomerangs that may lead to an arrow hit. Not playing Link, so I dunno how he actually uses his bow.
Recovery looks great, though. And it seems you have to be careful when trying to edgeguard Byleth since it seems like she can spike you.

Anyway, first impressions (are not that great) but the build was from November, so missing hitboxes (nAir) may be fixed by now. However, the general gameplan doesn't seem all that great.
Yeah basically Charizard's rock smash. I guess I forgot how strong it was.

As for the bow, I only use Link's bow to try to snipe off stage. It's a great edge guarding tool as you can snipe or gimp with it safely from on stage. However, It has limited use on stage because it's fairly weak outside of a full charge whereas Young Link's arrows are great combo tools. Actually, same with Link's bombs vs Young Link's bombs, come to think of it... anyway, the point is, Byleth's can possibly be used as an edge guarding tool like Link's, which isn't a bad thing.

To be honest, I don't care much for the character but he looks like he's got potential with the right tweaking.
 
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BitBitio

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Jul 8, 2019
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Okay guys, 7.0.0 is rolling around soon. What are you all looking for, hoping for, what buffs and nerfs are in order?

:ultkirby:, as always, needs a functional fthrow.
:ultdk: needs less endlag on his tilts.

Multihits need to work properly so characters can’t just fall out. Characters who especially need help here include:
:ultduckhunt: Smash Attacks
:ultfalco: Up smash and Up tilt
:ulticeclimbers: Sometimes the first Climber knocks the opponent too far for the second Climber to hit
:ultlucario::ultlucas: both have jab issues
:ultmarth: Side-b
:ultmetaknight: Fair, Bair, Ftilt
:ultmewtwo: Up smash and Nair
:ultswordfighter: Dair
:ultpit::ultdarkpit: with Up air, Fair, Nair, and Up and Forward smash rarely
:ultken: Side-b
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: Up smash and Up air
:ultsimon::ultrichter: Nair
:ultzelda: Nair

Other than that, I think we’re in a decent position.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,198
Anyways to break the conversation away from Byleth (who I am not too impressed in terms of potential viability, though looks pretty fun), we got a few notable events coming this weekend.

Tampa Never Sleeps 8 (C Tier) ($1,000 pot bonus)
1. Salem:ultsnake::ulthero: (No clue why Salem is seeded higher than Samsora)
2. Samsora:ultpeach:
3. Goblin:ultroy:
4. ScAtt:ultmegaman::ultsnake:
5. MuteAce:ultpeach:
6. 8BitMan:ultrob:
7. Epic_Gabriel:ultrob:
8. Myran:ultolimar:
9. Morpheus:ultmegaman:
10. Vinny G:ultsnake:
11. ZekeTRP:ultyoshi:
12. Kobe:ultyounglink:
13. Uncivil ninja:ultshulk:
14. Tachyon:ultpichu:
17. ChocoTaco:ultlucas:
18. Rideae:ultpichu:
20. WonderBread:ultroy:
30. Dath:ultrobinf:
44. Mew2King:ultbowser:
46. Karna:ultjoker::ultlucina:

Smash Fest to the Sky (C Tier)
1. Chag:ultinkling::ultpalutena:
2. Meme:ultyoshi:
3. Sparg0:ultcloud::ultinklingboy:
4. Nair^:ultridley:
5. Javi:ultlucina::ultwolf:
6. Hyuga:ulttoonlink:
7. Bedgar:ultinklingboy:
8. Joker:ultsamus:
14. Bernie:ultlink:
15. Waymas:ultwario:
20. FuerzaDON:ultshulk:
23. LeSou:ultdk:

Glitch 8 - Missingno (A Tier)
1. Maister:ultgnw:
2. Ryuga:ultike: (No idea why he is seeded so high)
3. Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina:
4. Tweek:ultwario::ultjoker:
5. Light:ultfox:
6. ESAM:ultpikachu:
7. Dark Wizzy:ultmario:
8. MVD:ultsnake:
9. Cosmos:ultinkling:
10. Gen:ultpalutena:
11. Raffi-X:ultrob:
12. Sinji:ultpacman:
13. WaDi:ultrob:
14. Kola:ultroy::ultcloud:
15. LeoN:ultbowser:
16. Stroder:ultroy::ultgreninja::ultmario::ultjoker:
17. Jakal:ultwolf:
18. Fatality:ultfalcon:
19. Jw:ultgreninja:
20. Pelca:ultsnake:
21. Suarez:ultyoshi:
22. Rivers:ultchrom:
23. ZD:ultfox::ultwolf:
24. Toast:ultyounglink:
25. Mr E:ultlucina:
26. RFang:ultpichu:
27. LingLing:ultpeach:
28. BlazingPasta:ultpeach:
29. John Numbers:ultwiifittrainer:
30. Juice:ultfalco::ultzss:
31. Puppeh:ultpokemontrainerf:
32. Stocktaker69:ultwolf::ultpalutena:
33. Seagull Joe:ultpalutena::ultwolf:
36. Phantom:ultpalutena:
37. Dill:ultrob:
38. Blacktwins:ultpichu:
39. DM:ultpikachu:
40. Mekos:ultlucas:
41. Beast:ultpokemontrainer:
42. BONK!:ultmetaknight:
44. Dexter:ultwolf:
46. Sandstorm:ultken::ultryu:
47. 6WX:ultjoker::ultsonic:
49. Magister:ultincineroar:
51. Daybreak:ultwolf:
55. Mata-Door:ultwario:
56. Dingus Joe:ultgnw:
60. Pink Fresh:ultzss:
61. Yetey:ultpichu:
66. Shoe:ultzss:
68. Ralphie:ultjoker:
69. JeBB:ultzss::ultpalutena:
71. Parappa:ult_terry:
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,330
Anyways to break the conversation away from Byleth (who I am not too impressed in terms of potential viability, though looks pretty fun), we got a few notable events coming this weekend.

Glitch 8 - Missingno (A Tier)
1. Maister:ultgnw:
2. Ryuga:ultike: (No idea why he is seeded so high)
3. Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina:
4. Tweek:ultwario::ultjoker:
5. Light:ultfox:
6. ESAM:ultpikachu:
7. Dark Wizzy:ultmario:
8. MVD:ultsnake:
9. Cosmos:ultinkling:
10. Gen:ultpalutena:
11. Raffi-X:ultrob:
12. Sinji:ultpacman:
13. WaDi:ultrob:
14. Kola:ultroy::ultcloud:
15. LeoN:ultbowser:
16. Stroder:ultroy::ultgreninja::ultmario::ultjoker:
17. Jakal:ultwolf:
18. Fatality:ultfalcon:
19. Jw:ultgreninja:
20. Pelca:ultsnake:
21. Suarez:ultyoshi:
22. Rivers:ultchrom:
23. ZD:ultfox::ultwolf:
24. Toast:ultyounglink:
25. Mr E:ultlucina:
26. RFang:ultpichu:
27. LingLing:ultpeach:
28. BlazingPasta:ultpeach:
29. John Numbers:ultwiifittrainer:
30. Juice:ultfalco::ultzss:
31. Puppeh:ultpokemontrainerf:
32. Stocktaker69:ultwolf::ultpalutena:
33. Seagull Joe:ultpalutena::ultwolf:
36. Phantom:ultpalutena:
37. Dill:ultrob:
38. Blacktwins:ultpichu:
39. DM:ultpikachu:
40. Mekos:ultlucas:
41. Beast:ultpokemontrainer:
42. BONK!:ultmetaknight:
44. Dexter:ultwolf:
46. Sandstorm:ultken::ultryu:
47. 6WX:ultjoker::ultsonic:
49. Magister:ultincineroar:
51. Daybreak:ultwolf:
55. Mata-Door:ultwario:
56. Dingus Joe:ultgnw:
60. Pink Fresh:ultzss:
61. Yetey:ultpichu:
66. Shoe:ultzss:
68. Ralphie:ultjoker:
69. JeBB:ultzss::ultpalutena:
71. Parappa:ult_terry:
Ryuga is seeded so high because Glutonny was originally suppose to be there, but DQ'd early, and now the seeding's bugged.
 

FruitLoop

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
125
Okay guys, 7.0.0 is rolling around soon. What are you all looking for, hoping for, what buffs and nerfs are in order?

:ultkirby:, as always, needs a functional fthrow.
:ultdk: needs less endlag on his tilts.

Multihits need to work properly so characters can’t just fall out. Characters who especially need help here include:
:ultduckhunt: Smash Attacks
:ultfalco: Up smash and Up tilt
:ulticeclimbers: Sometimes the first Climber knocks the opponent too far for the second Climber to hit
:ultlucario::ultlucas: both have jab issues
:ultmarth: Side-b
:ultmetaknight: Fair, Bair, Ftilt
:ultmewtwo: Up smash and Nair
:ultswordfighter: Dair
:ultpit::ultdarkpit: with Up air, Fair, Nair, and Up and Forward smash rarely
:ultken: Side-b
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: Up smash and Up air
:ultsimon::ultrichter: Nair
:ultzelda: Nair

Other than that, I think we’re in a decent position.
Whatever buffs happen, just buff DDD. He's bottom 5 and sucks lol. Out of every other char that is usually seen as a character that needs a buff, DDD is the only one who has received NO buffs and especially since he only received nerfs throughout the game's lifespan. The Man deserves no random sourspots on his Up-Smash, an actually useable F-Smash with no Blindspots that worked like 3.0.0 where you cant just shield camp him anymore, and an ACTUAL working inhale with a working reverse windbox that doesn't have a 10 year long spit animation. Dude needs massive buffs and we never talk about how much he needs them because of wifi lol.
 

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
Okay guys, 7.0.0 is rolling around soon. What are you all looking for, hoping for, what buffs and nerfs are in order?

:ultkirby:, as always, needs a functional fthrow.
:ultdk: needs less endlag on his tilts.

Multihits need to work properly so characters can’t just fall out. Characters who especially need help here include:
:ultduckhunt: Smash Attacks
:ultfalco: Up smash and Up tilt
:ulticeclimbers: Sometimes the first Climber knocks the opponent too far for the second Climber to hit
:ultlucario::ultlucas: both have jab issues
:ultmarth: Side-b
:ultmetaknight: Fair, Bair, Ftilt
:ultmewtwo: Up smash and Nair
:ultswordfighter: Dair
:ultpit::ultdarkpit: with Up air, Fair, Nair, and Up and Forward smash rarely
:ultken: Side-b
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: Up smash and Up air
:ultsimon::ultrichter: Nair
:ultzelda: Nair

Other than that, I think we’re in a decent position.
Sonic needs some help with mulithits too.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
Not really because :ultmario:'s 9th on Orion Stats. :ultgnw: is 27th. Mario's a top tier and G&W isn't. I'm saying if you don't play a top tier you're held back. Like I said look at Samsora and Glutonny in SSB4 or Tweek with Bowser Jr. The sad truth is top tiers are there for a reason.

The problem is people aren't seeing Maester as an outlier. But no other G&Ws have had anywhere near his leave of success.
Funny enough, Ramin himself made a post addressing the idea of ev with low representation:

I honestly find myself agreeing with this viewpoint to a certain degree, and it sheds a lot of light on his tier list in that regard.
 
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Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
Funny enough, Ramin himself made a post addressing the idea of ev with low representation:

I honestly find myself agreeing with this viewpoint, and it sheds a lot of light on his tier list in that regard.
If one person is achieving major results consistently with a specific character then there's gotta be something special about both the player and the character they are using.

I'm a firm believer that there are some characters that just unfortunately have not been tapped into yet due to lack of notable representation from any high or top tier players.
 

Nah

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
2,163
“that one person shows the character’s potential though” is never an argument I bought, since if they really were that good, why is no one else able to replicate those results? Obviously it’s not that simple though, as it’d be silly to , for example, say that Joker isn’t a good character “because Leo is (arguably) the only person getting those results”. Especially when you narrow your sample size to the top 100 or so players, naturally most characters are gonna have only 1 or 2 people getting “enough” results.

not commenting on Byleth right now, I’m personally not terribly interested in talking about a character based on 2 month old reveal trailer footage. Would rather just have fun watching the unreasonably large amounts of salt this community likes to generate over this sort of thing, then speculate on the character once they’re actually available to us
 

Thinkaman

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Thinkaman
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Leo electing to play Joker over Ike says something about the capabilities of both.

But Leo electing to play Joker does not intrinsically make Ike a worse character. Nor does Joker become a worse character if Leo gets sick and his hands fall off.

Ike's results are "artificially" held down due to decisions Leo has made extrinsic to Ike, just as Ganon's are held down by Nairo's decisions. Or alternatively, G&W is "artifically" propped up by Maister's insistence on playing him, and Hero is boosted by Salem's insistence on employing him as a secondary.

Who people choose to play and the results they obtain are merely data samples, queries into an underlying truth--the existence of which is itself a matter of philosophical debate. ("If ICs is secretly the best character but no one has figured it out, are they 'the best'?") Strong players merely provide us with the strongest, highest-confidence samples, while not themselves being "truth" manifest.

None of this is to argue that Leo has an obligation to play Ike, or Nairo Ganon, ect. That's dumb. But any scientist has to recognize the rammifications of their sampling technique.
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
1,315
Location
Canada
Re: Patch 7.0

This is more of "what they should address" in the upcoming patch rather than some personal wishlist (which I know is against the rules). So with that said:

Mandatory

G&W in his current iteration is demonstrably overtuned. Get out of free jail card Up B, Up Smash, Nair/Uair (for damage) are beyond toxic leading to a character so polarizing that top players get washed by comparatively weaker players if they use a losing character, but don't really have a problem with him if they have a good matchup. He's a mess.

Very important

Nerfs to :ultjoker:, :ultpalutena:, :ultwario:

I very much agree with Das Koopa in regards to these characters being top 3, or at least problematic in a way that needs immediate addressing. It's not that these characters are choking the metagame, but they're a good step ahead of the rest of the roster, and need changing to bringing them in line with the rest of the meta imo. Wario's changes are easy; Waft. Mitigating Wario's ability to steal matches is better for the metagame since facing off against a Wario player and losing due to a confirm into Waft feels... bad. He doesn't need any other changes since I very much think he's a great character (with obvious drawbacks) as is. There are multiple ways of nerfing Joker, but I think weakening the meter gained from getting hit so that Arsene activates maybe... 15-20% later and slightly lowering the knockback of Arsene's aerials, would be enough. Arsene is difficult to balance in general, and I want to avoid a "bandaid solution" that renders a character weak and irrelevant. Palutena needs a nerf to her Nair (duh) and Back throw, imo, since its the secret sauce that ties her entire character together. Not a significant nerf mind you, but enough to where she can't wreck you at the ledge as much.

Important

:ultpeach:, :ultsnake:, :ultzss:

I have less to say about these characters since I don't think they need significant changes, but if the above characters do get adjusted I would also like to see some quality of meta changes made to the following characters as well, specifically to curb some of their more degenerate aspects (e.g Snake Nikita and Frame 1 grenade, Peach's absurd damage, zss kill power / down B).
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
With the discussion of 7.0.0, I'd like to discuss what kind of changes that I personally want to see to characters. Since I don't really think most of the cast needs any major changes since the game is fairly balanced, I'll just skip over listing them and move on to the characters I think need to be changed:

  • Slight Nerfs Maybe?
    • :ultjoker: Arsene is kind of ridiculous and the fact that it normally shows up at least once a stock (if not twice) to help Joker kill the opponent is kind of stupid since Arsene-less Joker still has some OK kill options anyways. The easiest way to solve this is to make Arsene show up less often.
    • Edit: :ultshulk: shouldn't be able to switch arts in hitstun, why is that even a thing?
    • :ultpalutena: needs her n-air nerfed. Giving it less endlag so it won't combo for nearly as long into itself would probably work fine.
    • :ultgnw: is in a pretty good place, but no up-b OOS should be as good as his is for escaping shield. Most other up-b's that are of similar speeds OOS don't travel nearly as far vertically meaning that you can get punished for whiffing it. I'd probably just increase the startup on his up-b by a few frames.
    • :ultzss: same thing applies here as applies to Game and Watch: no move should be as good for escaping disadvantage as ZSS down-b is. Increasing the end-lag or startup on this move would make it a bit less good in that regard.
    • Edit: Slightly increasing the time it takes :ultwario: to get waft may be a good nerf as well since there are times where he can get it multiple times per game.
    • :ultsnake::ultpeach::ultlucina::ultpikachu: could all use some minor nerfs to their damage output but nothing major. I think that over-nerfing these characters is easier than the other ones listed, so I wouldn't really say making a major change to these guys is a good idea.
  • Mix of buffs and nerfs
    • :ultswordfighter: may be a weird pick for this category since A. nobody uses him and B. everyone forgets he's in the game. However, the one notable thing he has: Gale Strike is a pretty ridiculous projectile with pretty good range and the fact that it leads into kill confirms is icing on the cake. Slow characters (like :ultganondorf: or :ultincineroar:) don't really have a good method of dealing with Gale Strike since it is so large and travels at a decent speed. I doubt this will happen, but I think giving this move more endlag but in turn speeding up the frame data and improving the hitboxes on some of swordfighters normal's would be pretty good for the character.
    • :ulthero: has very underwhelming normals. While some (such as b-air) still have some uses, most of them are lacking compared to the normals of other swordfighters. Shaving off a few frames off of b-air and f-air and well as giving up-smash a slightly more reliable hitbox would be nice. However, having a move that has a chance to KO at 0% is really unbalanced (even though the odds of it happening is small) so I'd rebalance the move to not be an OHKO until at least 50% and for the move to not be a guaranteed OHKO until 200%.
    • :ult_terry: make his recovery snap to ledge properly and reduce the range on the GO version of Power Geyser. That's it.
  • Characters who need a few specific things fixed to improve significantly (either buggy moves or simple/obvious improvements)
    • :ultbowserjr: make it so he gets the kart back automatically after being hit out of up-b and allow him to directionally air dodge out of it as well.
    • :ultdoc: increase his air speed (and air acceleration) and give his aerial up-b more travel distance. Maybe increase the height of his double jump.
    • :ultfalco: fix the inconsistant hitboxes of up-smash, side-b, and the hitbox of the reflector (not the actual reflector).
    • :ultmetaknight: make it so up-air and down-air stay out for slightly longer (1-2 frames more is probably enough).
    • :ultmewtwo: make his tail hitbox the same as Smash 4.
    • :ultolimar: fix his shield please.
    • :ultpit::ultdarkpit: fix inconsistant hitboxes on their normals.
    • :ultsimon::ultrichter: give their up-b slightly more horizontal travel distance.
    • :ultsheik: increase her weight a bit and increase the damage of f-air by 2%.
    • :ultmarth: slight increase of tipper hitboxes.
    • :ultkirby: make d-air a bit stronger with faster startup, fix f-throw.
    • Edit: Fix Up-smash and roll for :ultsamus::ultdarksamus:
    • Edit: :ultzelda: could benefit from some buffs, but I'm not a Zelda main and I don't know that much about her. My best guess for changes would be to increase her ground movement a bit and making Phantom move faster once it has come out but if a Zelda main wants to correct me, feel free to say something.
    • Edit: :ultkingdedede: needs some slight kill power buffs. The best moves to do this are most likely b-air, d-smash, up-smash.
  • Characters who are better than before their buffs, but wouldn't mind further buffs
    • :ultkrool: could use some slight buffs to the start-up and endlag on various moves. Up-air is probably the most in need of help.
    • :ultfalcon: make his initial dash similar to everyone else's, improve the hit detection of side-b, remove rock-crocking.
    • :ultdk: He needs some way to escape disadvantage easier and a buff to up-b's startup and improving it's vertical recovery wouldn't hurt either.
  • Characters who need quite a bit of help
    • :ultbayonetta: she either needs better frame-data, kill options, hitboxes, or some combination of the three.
    • :ultcorrin: needs more reward for landing her moves. Her combo game is OK, but it doesn't lead into kill moves. Her kill moves are OK, but she has trouble landing them. Her hitboxes are pretty good and disjointed, but they are kind of laggy. She really doesn't need too many major buffs, just a lot of minor ones to be honest.
    • :ultridley: needs some buffs to his weight and landing options. Allowing his recovery to be used at more angles would be a pretty good changes as well.
  • Characters who probably need a total rework whether they get buffed or not
    • :ultincineroar::ulticeclimbers::ultlucario::ultlittlemac::ultganondorf:
There's probably some characters I'm forgetting to talk about but I feel like most characters are in a pretty good spot. Most of the characters in the mix of buffs and nerfs section as well as the specific change section are also in a pretty good place, but just have some issues that stand out to me and other players that should be fixed.
 
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Megamang

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Lets talk Corrin positives!

Pin is still an amazing move. The kick isn't nearly as good, though getting damage from the stick is always a nice bonus and it knocks you into a disadvantage state.

But its pretty good in the air. With airdodge nerfs, this move is pretty scary still, only held back by Corrin's lackluster mobility.

But at the ledge! Holy cow, pin 2 frames are legit ridiculous with nearly no risk besides maybe giving them back the ledge. I can't even say if it is over or underrated because I don't see any Corrin, but last time I played corrin I clutched out the game with 3 pin 2 frames. Since you space it so the tipper is two framing, it destroys them reliably early.

I also like falling off the platform and pinning, or jump pin on platform. Not as safe, especially in ult where they are likely to be rushing under you... but its a good mixup to destroy something at a range.
 

BitBitio

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:ultcorrin::ultcorrinf:: We have one good tool!
Everyone else: Lol

Sometimes Corrin feels extremely underwhelming compared to the cast.
 

Thinkaman

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I want to revist this, because I agree and got distracted from writing a post 3 days ago about how I came to this conclusion.

:ultjoker: is played by the #1 player in the game, and also the secondary of the #2 + a third top 10 player. He is also, despite his modest technicality, the #2 most used character among OrionRank top 150 and probably PGR. He, at last, earned the #1 spot at the top of OrionStats character points. No matter how thin his margins in these categories continue to be, it's hard to dispute that he's the king.

:ultpalutena: is the #1 most used character among Orion Top 150, the only one more than Joker. She was #3 for OrionStats Phase 2. She is pure fundamentals, with no sign of slowing down. Simply learning the matchup isn't a solution to Palutena to the extent that it is other characters, even high/top tier ones. We're not seeing people move on once they find a "real main", like they largely did with Lucina.

The "worst" we can say against Palutena is that Dabuz and Nairo have been performing as "merely" top 10 and not top 5. But Peach and ZSS do not have the broader statistical support backing them up.

:ultwario: is only the 7th most played character in that population, and only managed 11th on said stats. But he is the only character mained by 2 top 5 players! In some ways, that's more impressive than Joker's peak respresentation.

And personally, all else being equal, I would expect Wario to have a naturally small player base. He's sort of hard in a weird way, takes a particular mindset (Lucario does too, for comparison) and just as a character is not attractive to most people. Wouldn't you agree? So being played by fewer players and having less results doesn't surprise me, that's my baseline expectation. Yet in that relatively small sample size we have both Tweek and Glutonny's performance.

Isn't it far easier to believe that Wario is a top character, and just held back in broader adoption by his character design, than to believe that both Tweek and Gluttony are flukes?

:ultpeach: is the 5th most used character, tied with Lucina. But unlike Lucina, who is SUPER easy to pick up, Peach is highly technical. This means that not only should we be more impressed by the number of top players who choose to play Peach, but we should see Samsora as disproportionately enlightening of what the character is capable of and also not #3 by fluke.

I feel like the top 4 are :ultjoker::ultpalutena::ultwario::ultpeach:, where the exact order depends on the nuances of how you phrase the question.

:ultpokemontrainer:and :ultsnake: are very popular characters, tied for 3rd in that top 150 usage. But they aren't the main of anyone higher than 18th or 25th on that list respectively. Their strong OrionStats points reflect their popularity, but no matter how many people play them, and no matter how many times top players have experiemented with them, they don't truely stick. Both are really solid characters, but at the absolute peak of play have weaknesses that those players have learned to deal with better than the aforementioned.

:ultwolf: is in a similar boat, but even less popular in the top 150 and carried to #2 in the stats (#1 until the end!) by persistent regional level performance. You have to go all the way down to 62 on OrionRank to find a Wolf main! (Larry) There are 33 characters mained by players higher than that! 33! Is Wolf just the new Ness and Yoshi???

:ultrob: and :ultzss: and :ultolimar: on the other hand do have convincing top 10 representation, but don't have the broader success of the above, even Wario! Yet none of these are historically unpopular or exotically difficult to pick up. I can buy them as top 10 atm, but can't regard them as breaking into that top 4.

Past those guys you end up looking at :ultinkling::ultmario::ultgreninja::ultfox::ultlucina:, who have solid numbers in every category but no claim to the top. Maybe :ultmegaman: and/or :ultpichu: gets to eat at their lunch table too. :ultpacman:/:ultgnw: have worse broad usage but higher peak placing, which imo we sort of expect. (like Wario)

But :ultpikachu: is all theory, we can no longer base expectations off a single player's peak performance. We've had a year, and NO ONE else is doing anything remarkable with the character outside of Captain L if we are being generous. The days of thinking Pikachu is #1 or top 3, while the #1 Pikachu isn't top 10 and the #2 Pikachu player is barely top 100, are past. We have to accept that these are amazing players playing a perfectly ordinary and respectable high tier character, and nothing more.

We see comparable real-world representation and results with :ultness::ultroy::ultshulk::ultyoshi::ultchrom::ultsonic::ultbowser::ultfalcon:! And I'm willing to agree that Pikachu's results are more impressive than that list due to the technicality of the character, but it's too much to leapfrog pika above the all the statistically-robust characters discussed previously.

I think the top 32 is rounded out by :ult_terry: and :ultlink:/:ultken:/:ultmarth:. I think Terry is underexplored (not an unusual opinion) and will always be underrepresented relative to his potential. The other 3 suffer from a substitution effect, in which top players will continue to use alternatives--but Lucina's existence doesn't inherently makes Marth worse, it just means no one plays him.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Thinkaman Thinkaman since you're doing this sort of analysis now: how do you figure Ike in these sorts of placements? We've seen what happens when a stupidly good player plays him but a lot of people have moved on. He's not super popular despite being reasonably simple outside of knowing when to use what recovery option in order to live, but potentially has some very important counter pick utility against G&W and Snake with generally not that bad of spread against the characters you have in your list for top 32. So a character that's dropped off a lot, but their peak has been higher than the majority of the characters you listed.
 

Thinkaman

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Thinkaman Thinkaman since you're doing this sort of analysis now: how do you figure Ike in these sorts of placements? We've seen what happens when a stupidly good player plays him but a lot of people have moved on. He's not super popular despite being reasonably simple outside of knowing when to use what recovery option in order to live, but potentially has some very important counter pick utility against G&W and Snake with generally not that bad of spread against the characters you have in your list for top 32. So a character that's dropped off a lot, but their peak has been higher than the majority of the characters you listed.
Ike is the most extreme case of this. He's like Pikachu, except with even worse general results and Leo-level peak results instead of ESAM-level peak results.

Leo is probably the #1 Joker, Lucina, Marth, Ike, and Link in the game, among probably others.

The 2nd best player of those characters?

:ultjoker: ...is the 2nd best player.
:ultlucina::ultmarth: ...is at worst Protobanham, #17 on OrionRank.
:ultlink: ...is likely T, #29.
:ultike: ...is... uh.... well............ Ryuga, at #101.

Unlike say Marth, it's implausible that Ike is amazing and yet EVERYONE is just choosing not to play him. In fact, take Ryuga away, and his results might not even make top 50.

Leo has moved on, and insisted that Ike is not that great. We initially took that as hubris, but he has put his money where his mouth is. (Or everyone else's money, rather.) If you are looking to Leo for valuable data/wisdom as the #1 player, it is inconsistent to consider his early meta results as greater evidence than his current character choices and his own expressed views.
 

Rizen

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I want to revist this, because I agree and got distracted from writing a post 3 days ago about how I came to this conclusion.

:ultjoker: is played by the #1 player in the game, and also the secondary of the #2 + a third top 10 player. He is also, despite his modest technicality, the #2 most used character among OrionRank top 150 and probably PGR. He, at last, earned the #1 spot at the top of OrionStats character points. No matter how thin his margins in these categories continue to be, it's hard to dispute that he's the king.

:ultpalutena: is the #1 most used character among Orion Top 150, the only one more than Joker. She was #3 for OrionStats Phase 2. She is pure fundamentals, with no sign of slowing down. Simply learning the matchup isn't a solution to Palutena to the extent that it is other characters, even high/top tier ones. We're not seeing people move on once they find a "real main", like they largely did with Lucina.

The "worst" we can say against Palutena is that Dabuz and Nairo have been performing as "merely" top 10 and not top 5. But Peach and ZSS do not have the broader statistical support backing them up.

:ultwario: is only the 7th most played character in that population, and only managed 11th on said stats. But he is the only character mained by 2 top 5 players! In some ways, that's more impressive than Joker's peak respresentation.

And personally, all else being equal, I would expect Wario to have a naturally small player base. He's sort of hard in a weird way, takes a particular mindset (Lucario does too, for comparison) and just as a character is not attractive to most people. Wouldn't you agree? So being played by fewer players and having less results doesn't surprise me, that's my baseline expectation. Yet in that relatively small sample size we have both Tweek and Glutonny's performance.

Isn't it far easier to believe that Wario is a top character, and just held back in broader adoption by his character design, than to believe that both Tweek and Gluttony are flukes?

:ultpeach: is the 5th most used character, tied with Lucina. But unlike Lucina, who is SUPER easy to pick up, Peach is highly technical. This means that not only should we be more impressed by the number of top players who choose to play Peach, but we should see Samsora as disproportionately enlightening of what the character is capable of and also not #3 by fluke.

I feel like the top 4 are :ultjoker::ultpalutena::ultwario::ultpeach:, where the exact order depends on the nuances of how you phrase the question.

:ultpokemontrainer:and :ultsnake: are very popular characters, tied for 3rd in that top 150 usage. But they aren't the main of anyone higher than 18th or 25th on that list respectively. Their strong OrionStats points reflect their popularity, but no matter how many people play them, and no matter how many times top players have experiemented with them, they don't truely stick. Both are really solid characters, but at the absolute peak of play have weaknesses that those players have learned to deal with better than the aforementioned.

:ultwolf: is in a similar boat, but even less popular in the top 150 and carried to #2 in the stats (#1 until the end!) by persistent regional level performance. You have to go all the way down to 62 on OrionRank to find a Wolf main! (Larry) There are 33 characters mained by players higher than that! 33! Is Wolf just the new Ness and Yoshi???

:ultrob: and :ultzss: and :ultolimar: on the other hand do have convincing top 10 representation, but don't have the broader success of the above, even Wario! Yet none of these are historically unpopular or exotically difficult to pick up. I can buy them as top 10 atm, but can't regard them as breaking into that top 4.

Past those guys you end up looking at :ultinkling::ultmario::ultgreninja::ultfox::ultlucina:, who have solid numbers in every category but no claim to the top. Maybe :ultmegaman: and/or :ultpichu: gets to eat at their lunch table too. :ultpacman:/:ultgnw: have worse broad usage but higher peak placing, which imo we sort of expect. (like Wario)

But :ultpikachu: is all theory, we can no longer base expectations off a single player's peak performance. We've had a year, and NO ONE else is doing anything remarkable with the character outside of Captain L if we are being generous. The days of thinking Pikachu is #1 or top 3, while the #1 Pikachu isn't top 10 and the #2 Pikachu player is barely top 100, are past. We have to accept that these are amazing players playing a perfectly ordinary and respectable high tier character, and nothing more.

We see comparable real-world representation and results with :ultness::ultroy::ultshulk::ultyoshi::ultchrom::ultsonic::ultbowser::ultfalcon:! And I'm willing to agree that Pikachu's results are more impressive than that list due to the technicality of the character, but it's too much to leapfrog pika above the all the statistically-robust characters discussed previously.

I think the top 32 is rounded out by :ult_terry: and :ultlink:/:ultken:/:ultmarth:. I think Terry is underexplored (not an unusual opinion) and will always be underrepresented relative to his potential. The other 3 suffer from a substitution effect, in which top players will continue to use alternatives--but Lucina's existence doesn't inherently makes Marth worse, it just means no one plays him.
Sometimes I want to quit the thread after seeing people want to nerf characters who can't get top 20 results (:ultgnw::ultpikachu: and less so :ultshulk:) but posts like this make me stay.
 

BitBitio

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1579241658600.png

Random but funny thing, how is Nintendo going to fit six more characters on this super packed banner? lol
 

Lacrimosa

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Edit: :ultzelda: could benefit from some buffs, but I'm not a Zelda main and I don't know that much about her. My best guess for changes would be to increase her ground movement a bit and making Phantom move faster once it has come out but if a Zelda main wants to correct me, feel free to say something.
-Phantom's sword has notable hitbox issues: It hits visibly but doesn't for some reason at the final stage
It's nearly useless against chars that approach from the air or stay in the air. I notice these flaws especially against Peach's float: It should hit but doesn't.
The hitbox somehow disappears right when the sword's top is about to be at the highest during the move. so, it's not surprise it doesn't work against Peach that well, but maybe this flaw is match-up specific.
-Nair hitbox (falling out of the move, the size of the hitboxes are great, it's very disjointed) and endlag (it has more endlag than fAir/bAir which is some bullsh*t)
-Maybe something with uSmash? It's outclassed by upTilt which is one of the better/best tilts in the game

It sounds pretty different than the other times I mentioned buffs for her. I frankly don't think she needs a buff to fAir/bAir's sweetspot hitbox for example. You can hit it fairly consistent and the move is fast per se.
Pivot grabbing with her is also great and makes up for her other grabs.

Other than that, I don't see anything major. Phantom makes up for her ground movement since it covers a lot of space in front of her and opponents are forced to jump (shielding/reflecting is a horrible idea, unless you have a disjointed reflector like Falco). It still could be better but I doubt it'll do much for her.
 
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VodkaHaze

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Sometimes I want to quit the thread after seeing people want to nerf characters who can't get top 20 results (:ultgnw::ultpikachu: and less so :ultshulk:) but posts like this make me stay.
It still baffles me how some people can say a character isn't in the top 10, yet still want them nerfed over top tiers solely because they're annoying to fight. If that were the case, we would have nerfed :ultness: into the ground.
View attachment 258278
Random but funny thing, how is Nintendo going to fit six more characters on this super packed banner? lol
I feel sorry for the artists. I can see them moving Zero Suit Samus just below Pac-man to add a new DLC character below Ganondorf.
 

Anomika

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Well... in Smash, some non top tiers do get nerfed because of the casual community. Notable examples are Smash 4 Little Mac :4littlemac:and Smash Ultimate King K. Rool :ultkrool:. Them giving nerfs to low tiers is not the best decision, I'll agree. But at least K. Rool got some useful buffs to compensate for some minor nerfs, and I'm fairly confident he'll get more buffs along the way. He just got his "casual cheese" stuff toned down, like with down throw (though I'll admit that pre-nerf down throw was really stupid with how many moves you could confirm from it), Propellerpack and Blunderbuss. As for those viable fighters that are not in the top, it's also debatable. I do think that several fighters do need to get some of their moves toned down, if it means rebalancing them to be just as viable but not make them notorious for some of their moves. Unfortunately, while I do think that they can "rebalance" some fighters to a certain extent, I seriously doubt we'll see them completely changing how some moves function, as in a complete redesign of something (like giving Little Mac better aerials or recovery while compensating for something else. It's just not going to happen, they want him to be amazing on the ground and they put a full stop there. The only real hope is waiting for the next game in the series to change them, but even then the chances are slim). They just don't seem to care about it / want to focus on DLC.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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I don’t think the idea that you can’t balance out some traits of weaker characters so they aren’t so polarizing is entirely a bad thing.

Ike for example who struggled in S4 got his Fair nerfed in exchange for his nair in ultimate and people have floated the idea around of nerfing his nair now to give him changes to his other moves so he isn’t so one dimensional in order to help him long term.

Personally I don’t think preventing Shulk from being able to change to shield in hitstun is unreasonable. The point of being in hitstun is to be in stun, a punishment for being hit. While you can for sure counterplay it I don’t see how it’s a bad idea to not let him do that. We already saw how quickly they changed the ability to item drop during hitstun when the game released, sure you could counterplay it and sure Diddy isn’t what he used to be but that would turn quick degenerate over time.

This isn’t something that’s foreign either. Ness another not top 20 character had down smash and up smash changed so that it couldn’t be charged for as long as normal and it loses its charging hitbox after 90 (iirc) frames so it doesn’t let him down/up smash at ledge as easily as he could before (he still can it just requires a bit more effort on the Ness players part to time the release better). Because no matter if Ness was top 1 or bottom 70 you can not deny that pre patch yo-yo (and for some unfortunate characters current yo-yo) wasn’t overtuned on a character that already has fantastic options to edge guard without it. They could completely remove his ability to two frame with the move in exchange for improving his ground/air speed and slight range increases on his aerials and he would be better overall for it.
 

Nobie

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Bringing together different conversations going on in here , I think Byleth is going to end up being a baaad matchup for G&W. If you look at all the characters that Maister thinks give G&W grief, one of the main themes is big disjoints. This is why he considers Ike more of a threat than many top tiers. And Byleth is a "distance demon" who's likely more than happy to play keep-away.

G&W is a lot about forcing his game plan onto others and preventing them from setting up theirs, and having a character who just comes in with 4 honking big weapons is not going to make G&W's life easy.
 

The_Bookworm

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Speaking of Byleth, opinions on him in terms of viability has been noticeably polar among top players.
Some players thinks that he may be good while others thinks that he may not be too great.

The most extreme example is Dabuz vs Leffen. Dabuz thinks that he may be really good, while Leffen thinks that he is a very lackluster character.

Then again, taking pre-footage to determine a character's viability, especially if it is 2 months old, is usually an inaccurate way of telling if the character is good or not.
Remember how a lot of people thought Hero was broken at release? Ends up being a not very good character (very fun, but not very practical at all).

We will see how he shakes up at launch.

Bringing together different conversations going on in here , I think Byleth is going to end up being a baaad matchup for G&W. If you look at all the characters that Maister thinks give G&W grief, one of the main themes is big disjoints. This is why he considers Ike more of a threat than many top tiers. And Byleth is a "distance demon" who's likely more than happy to play keep-away.

G&W is a lot about forcing his game plan onto others and preventing them from setting up theirs, and having a character who just comes in with 4 honking big weapons is not going to make G&W's life easy.
Fun fact: that is exactly what Samsora thought immediately after his reveal, that he may be the answer to his notorious G&W problem.

He has been training with the G&W discord (including Maister and Nairo's G&W) for the past week on how to fight G&W, although he probably did a better job telling G&W players how to fight Peach. lol

Also, Cosmos is looking forward to Byleth himself, probably due to him getting shades of SSB4 Corrin back (minus the stupid counter).
 

Hydreigonfan01

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They're not going to remove Shulk's ability to switch Monado Arts out of hitstun. That's his main gimmick. It's mentioned in his own tips section.
 
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