Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[NotLiquid]

Zelda is NOT like Mac in the air. She’s got the best spike in the game in dair

Debatable if Zelda's spike is even top 3 if we're being honest

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Debatable if Zelda's spike is even top 3 if we're being honest

Spikes are yet another thing that cannot be looked though in a Vacum. I mean spike would be top-3 worthy if he was not so slow in the air and many of his moves have considerable endlag. To point where most characters have already recovered before he had a chance to use it

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here are the results for the notable tournaments this weekend. Some rankings have changed since the last I mentioned this, such as Just Roll With It! 12 now becoming a B tier event instead of a C tier, and EGS Cup, previously unranked, getting the A tier ranking.


Overclocked Ultimate IV (C Tier)

Spoiler

1st: Marss
2nd: Light
3rd: Raffi-X
4th: Sinji
5th: Laid
5th: Jakal
7th: Juice
7th: Nuggetz
9th: Mr E
9th: DM
9th: Kuma
9th: Kiwi
13th: Sharp
13th: LingLing
13th: LeoN
13th: Hero

Karisuma SP 7 (C Tier)

Spoiler

1st: Abadango
2nd: Lv. 1
3rd: DIO
4th: Raito
5th: Compact
5th: U-NO
7th: Masha
7th: Sidarezakura
9th: Tsumusuto
9th: Kie
9th: Kome
9th: Kikuzakari

Kurobra 19 (C Tier)

Spoiler

1st: JILL
2nd: Kuroitsu
3rd: Ke-ya
4th: yuzu
5th: nao
5th: Tamushika
7th: Anchor
7th: Take

Just Roll With It! 12 (B Tier)

Spoiler

1st: Wrath
2nd: Toast
3rd: Kola
4th: RFang
5th: Iota
5th: Peabnut
7th: Mekos
7th: Adachi
9th: Kresent
9th: MINTOS
9th: Bully
9th: Donquavious
13th: Dietsoda
13th: Vendetta
13th: Wasabi
13th: JeBB

GatorLAN Spring 2020 (B Tier)

Spoiler

1st: Epic_Gabriel
2nd: Goblin
3rd: ZekeTRP
4th: Vinny G
5th: Kobe
5th: Rideae
7th: Tachyon
7th: Uncivil ninja

Valhalla III (B Tier)

Spoiler

1st: Glutonny
2nd: quiK
3rd: Lancelot
4th: Space
5th: Mr R
5th: S1
7th: Elexiao
7th: CurryGovernor
9th: Tru4
9th: Meru
9th: Peli
9th: Flow
13th: Rage
13th: Supahsemmie
13th: iStudying
13th: Azrael
17th: Tarik
17th: Yetey
17th: Whoophee
17th: cyve
17th: Streakz
17th: Manda
17th: Sirjon
17th: Leon

EGS Cup 3 (A Tier) *The biggest event of the weekend.

Spoiler

1st: Zackray
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Shuton
4th: ProtoBanham
5th: takera
5th: Etsuji
7th: Kirihara
7th: Paseriman
9th: Shogun
9th: Eim
9th: Nietono
9th: T
13th: Kameme
13th: Gackt
13th: KEN
13th: VoiD
17th: supa
17th: Aiba
17th: HIKARU
17th: Tsu
17th: Some
17th: Choco
17th: Rotsuku
17th: Umeki
25th: shky
25th: Atelier
25th: YOC
25th: Kuro
25th: Ganon
25th: Halo
25th: Aiyu
25th: Raito

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Biggest takeaways judging from this weekend:
Is still indeed performing very well to warrant a high tier position, with Wrath's victory at Just Roll With It! 12. KEN's 13th at EGS Cup 3, while nothing spectacular, is still pretty solid.
Kirihara's recent rampage at the Japan scene continues, with a very good 7th at EGS Cup 3. The character is recently seeing an upbringing, and this event seems to solidify it.
After our conversation earlier about Lucina's recent lack of big name results, Lucina starts strong at season 3. While Mr E's 9th at Overclocked Ultimate IV and Leon's 17th at Valhalla III is decent but nothing really noteworthy, the magic happens at EGS Cup 3, with ProtoBanham and Etsuji getting 4th and 5th, respectively, at the event.
After Toast's 13th at Let's Make Big Moves, the momentum for Young Link seems to start off very well at the start of season 3. Various good placements have occurred during this weekend, such as Toast's 2nd at Just Roll with It! 12, Kobe's 5th at GatorLAN Spring 2020, and Supahsemmie's 13th at Valhalla III. Definitely a nice upbringing for Young Link after opinions on him dropped off a cliff during season 2.
Something to note: and especially did well this weekend as well, with Lvl. 1's 2nd at Karisuma SP 7 for the former, and various good placements with the latter, with the crowning gem being T's 9th at EGS Cup 3, arguably the best peak of the Links this weekend.
While his placements is not as spectacular as Young Link's, he still scored some pretty nice placements this weekend, especially for a character some people think is dropping off and irrelevant. We have MINTOS and Dietsoda getting 9th and 13th, respectively, at Just Roll With It! 12 (as well as Kola placing 3rd using him as a secondary), YOC's 25th at EGS Cup 3 alongside Joker, and, biggest of all, CurryGovernor's 7th at Valhalla III.
One of the biggest surprises of the weekend is Peli's 9th at Valhalla 3, with a character that was seen as starving-for-results towards the end of season 2. Pretty nice placement for the king.

Debatable if Zelda's spike is even top 3 if we're being honest

10 active frames (sweetspot on the first two active frames), decently large hitbox, spikes on literally every single hitbox (and frame) of the move, and true combos on grounded opponents at low percents (and puts opponents in a bad position in higher percents).

The only real thing holding this dumb down air back is 14 frames of startup, but it not particularly bad either relative to the rest of spiking down airs (R.O.B.'s is frame 20, but we all know dumb of a spiking move it is).

Edit: Ivysaur's is probably the best in the game, especially its pre-patch version.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Also I notable is continues to get very strong results.

Epic-Garbriel getting 1st at GatorLan
Raffi-X getting 3rd at Overclocked
Zackray 1st at EGS 3 altough using many other characters

Despite his big-ass body hurtbox R.O.B has some utterly ridiculous tools at his disposal. I would say he is potentially top 15 level.

Also getting strong results outside of Nairo. Although not listed and I do not think it was Ranked. Gen won Xenosaga XXXI notable for placing over Dabuz
There is little doubt she is not top 5 at least

 

[The_Bookworm]

Just an update, according to this tweet, the OrionStats for season 3 hasn't been created yet, so for now there is no need to be frantically looking so it.

Anyways:

Rankings are coming!

The Fall 2019 #PGRU reveal starts with 50-41 on Jaunary 13, and ends on January 23!

The #MPGR2019 reveal starts with 100-91 on January 13, and ends on January 24! pic.twitter.com/lKoFr2GDMM

— PGstats.com (@pgstats) January 7, 2020

Stayed tune for #50-41 today (and maybe area 51 as well).

 

[Tri Knight]

After Toast's 13th at Let's Make Big Moves, the momentum for Young Link seems to start off very well at the start of season 3. Various good placements have occurred during this weekend, such as Toast's 2nd at Just Roll with It! 12, Kobe's 5th at GatorLAN Spring 2020, and Supahsemmie's 13th at Valhalla III. Definitely a nice upbringing for Young Link after opinions on him dropped off a cliff during season 2.
Something to note: and especially did well this weekend as well, with Lvl. 1's 2nd at Karisuma SP 7 for the former, and various good placements with the latter, with the crowning gem being T's 9th at EGS Cup 3, arguably the best peak of the Links this weekend.

T is making things happen with Adult Link that I didn't even think would be possible this far in.

 

[VodkaHaze]

Seeing quiK play showed that she isn't as bad as initially thought. She actually has some crisp movement, her zoning tools are great thanks to the addition of jumping out of Charge Shot, and a frame 4 OoS option is nothing to laugh at.

Do I think she's top tier material? No, she still has some issues such as her jab which probably won't get fixed since it's a tip in the game. But if she's Top 30 then she's better than her Melee iteration.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Zelda is NOT like Mac in the air. She’s got the best spike in the game in dair, two scary kill moves that do tons of damage and fair and bair, a decently big and rewarding nair, and a disjointed killing up air. Slow startup, small sweet spots, or not, her aerials are better than Mac’s tenfold. Mac has teeny hitboxes, disproportionate lag, low power, and add it to unfavorable air mobility, he’s waaaay worse in air than Zelda. Or any other character, for that matter.

I disagree with Dabuz, Zelda may have a high learning curve, but without a doubt her kill setups, combos, and neutral can do more than many characters in this game.

I don't agree with the start-up. They are frame 6 aerials.

Or maybe that's slow and I'm just oblivious, however I don't feel like they're that slow. Or maybe they're slow for the small size the sweetspot is.

 

[BitBitio]

I don't agree with the start-up. They are frame 6 aerials.

Or maybe that's slow and I'm just oblivious, however I don't feel like they're that slow. Or maybe they're slow for the small size the sweetspot is.

No, fair and bair are fast. I was referring to nair, up air, and dair for slow startup, while I was referring to fair, bair, and kinda nair for small sweet spots.
Zelda’s fair and bair are scary as heck.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I remember mentioning this a while back, but 's huge body and weak disadvantage are only major issues if the character fighting him can actually reliably close out stocks against him. There are many good examples of this, particularly Raffi's set against Raito at LMBM; Raffi was able to consistently live up to percents near 200%, and while a good chunk of that can be chalked up to 's lack of kill power, it also highlights that major percent deficits don't mean much against R.O.B., and can even end up benefiting him in some ways (i.e. rage).

I feel like characters like and look like they don't have top tier match-up spreads on paper due to some primary flaw they have (Wario lacking range, R.O.B.'s issues in disadvantage), but things like Waft and Arm Rotor are such volatile comeback factors that it's something you have to consider when evaluating their match-ups. And THAT'S when discussing their MUs can get very messy.

Oh yeah, and something about Area 51 being revealed:

Spoiler: Area 51

A51: Myran
A51: Leffen |
A51: yeti
A51: Wrath
A51: Eim

AFAIK top tier is now Pika, Falcon, Fox... maybe im dumb but I thought Kirby had fallen fairly recently being outmanuevered by the rat.

Huh... you might be right; I thought Kirby was more popular, but it seems like Pika and Yoshi have taken over.

Goes to show how well I've been following the Smash 64 meta lol.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Oh yeah, and something about Area 51 being revealed:

Spoiler: Area 51

A51: Myran
A51: Leffen |
A51: yeti
A51: Wrath

You forgot Eim.

People on Twitter is already mad that Leffen is relegated to only area 51, but considering how incredibly infrequent his attendance is, I am not too surprised.
Same thing with Wrath.

 

[Rizen]

's issue with aerials is lack of versatility. All her aerials except Nair are kill moves and Bair/Fair are identical. F/Bair are good in a certain situation but don't give Zelda anything to poke or juggle with. As a counterpoint, Wolf's Fair is an excellent juggle tool and his Bair kills; this gives Wolf a lot more options.

 

[The_Bookworm]

#41-50 are here.

Season 2 of the #PGRU begins with the 50 best Super Smash Bros. Ultimate competitors including familiar names and some brand new ones.

In partnership with @redbullgaming, we are proud to present to you the 50-41.

Read & Watch:https://t.co/Aap1hJYtUQ

— PGstats.com (@pgstats) January 13, 2020

41st: HIKARU() New
42nd: Goblin() -3
43rd: BestNess() New
44th: Mr R() -8
45th: RFang() New
46th: Kola() New
47th: Riddles() New
48th: Kirihara New
49th: Big D() New
50th: Ron() New
A51: yeti -17
A51: Wrath() New
A51: Myran -38
A51: Leffen New
A51: Eim New

 

[Lacrimosa]

I'd be really happy when they start making a America-only PGR list.
Pretty sure someone like Ron isn't that well travelled in the US and fights many players on the PGR.

Just wish there was a Japanese, European ans American PGR. Would be much more descriptive of what each region can accomplish.

Or have something like OrionStats:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yOUnrhyjsCV6yn1HAvTcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=0
Dunno if that's perfect but it illustrates what players compete with who and don't just throw everyone into one giant pot.

 

[blackghost]

I'd be really happy when they start making a America-only PGR list.
Pretty sure someone like Ron isn't that well travelled in the US and fights many players on the PGR.

Just wish there was a Japanese, European ans American PGR. Would be much more descriptive of what each region can accomplish.

Or have something like OrionStats:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yOUnrhyjsCV6yn1HAvTcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=0
Dunno if that's perfect but it illustrates what players compete with who and don't just throw everyone into one giant pot.

smash is a global game probably third most played at a high level worldwide behind tekken and street fighter. an america only PR is not really needed smaller regions often have thier best players ignored or underestimated but north america this really isnt that common.
and im of the belief you cannot travel to the big events then, unfortunately, you cannot expect to be highly ranked or epect to get the bennefit of the doubt.
players like Ron and Awestin are great and they are part of the reason north america is so competitive but awestin doesnt travel and ron doesnt travel so it holds them back. as esports and sponsorships become more prevalent maybe region hidden bosses will get their chance to shine.

as for the topic at hand: zelda isn't versatile on the ground OR the air personally i think having the same bair and fair is and would be a huge detriment for most characters (unless you had palutena bair on both sides). after the initial zelda hype way died post launch, there were plenty of calls for her to get new moves. zelda brawl minus is essentially about has fun as this current moveset can get.

 

[FruitLoop]

smash is a global game probably third most played at a high level worldwide behind tekken and street fighter. an america only PR is not really needed smaller regions often have thier best players ignored or underestimated but north america this really isnt that common.
and im of the belief you cannot travel to the big events then, unfortunately, you cannot expect to be highly ranked or epect to get the bennefit of the doubt.
players like Ron and Awestin are great and they are part of the reason north america is so competitive but awestin doesnt travel and ron doesnt travel so it holds them back. as esports and sponsorships become more prevalent maybe region hidden bosses will get their chance to shine.

as for the topic at hand: zelda isn't versatile on the ground OR the air personally i think having the same bair and fair is and would be a huge detriment for most characters (unless you had palutena bair on both sides). after the initial zelda hype way died post launch, there were plenty of calls for her to get new moves. zelda brawl minus is essentially about has fun as this current moveset can get.

I think you've never heard of SSF2 Beta Zelda, arguably one of the best characters in the current meta of that game despite having the same exact moveset and still having awful mobility and retaining the same flaws + a recovery that doesn't work. She just needs a completely safe on shield jab that can lead into a grab to become overpowered to be honest. That and working multihits and probably a double shorthop lightning Kick Back-Air if we're being REAL honest. Those 3 changes alone would just completely break the meta from how good she'd be lmao. No other special mechanics needed to make her good.

This is also why Zelda should NEVER be made High Tier or anything above that unless y'all were fine with PM 3.02 Zelda.

 

[Minordeth]

Zelda would be a better character if she had more safety on the entirety of her kit. Unsurprisingly, she is a notoriously better character online - where she has more safety on her kit.

As it stands, she just requires too much commitment to execute her gameplan, which leaves her vulnerable to whiff punishing, or getting rushed down. She doesn’t have a quick Charge Shot to dissuade approaches. She can’t keep her mobility while setting up her zone, like DHD, Megaman, or YL/TL.

There’s not much she can do to stop a Fox, ZSS, or Chroy from baiting out her options or running all over her as she tries to set up. As it stands, she has a ceiling that’s going to take more than a great player to bust through.

 

[Megamang]

As mentioned, having the same effective bair and fair is pretty annoying. Most characters can choose to position forward or backward to get an aerial for different situations... Zelda, not really. Think Yoshi... even the similar bairs like Lucina have pretty different purposes.

If she had Palu fair she'd be feeling better. Or Peach Dtilt, no reason that move should be so much better on a better character except Zelda's specials are noob slayers.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ladies and gentlemen, it's almost time.

 

[BitBitio]

True that lacks in aerial versatility but keep in mind that she has among the strongest of each kind with additional benefits like dair’s sourspot and up air’s massive disjoint. Nair is admittedly lackluster but has niche combo purposes. If a character were stuck with two of the same fair and bair, you can’t get much better than Zelda’s. However, I will admit that she has flexibility issues.

 

[VodkaHaze]

True that lacks in aerial versatility but keep in mind that she has among the strongest of each kind with additional benefits like dair’s sourspot and up air’s massive disjoint. Nair is admittedly lackluster but has niche combo purposes. If a character were stuck with two of the same fair and bair, you can’t get much better than Zelda’s. However, I will admit that she has flexibility issues.

Call me crazy, but even though and both have similar fairs and bairs, I think those moves are better than Zelda's fair and bair. They are a lot more flexible in what you can do, such as zoning, edgeguarding and even killing with the strong hit of it.

 

[DunnoBro]

Most zoners/trappers have linear/committal aerial coverage. Snake, Rob, Pacman, etc. I really don't think those are the issue. They're pretty in-line with her archetype and fit well with her current kit.

I think the main issue is Zelda's mid-range game lacks a decent, non-committal option.

Her long-range and general approach-forcing game is great. Her CQC range is also functional, due to her oos options, nayru invincibility, and good spotdodge cancel punishes. Nothing great but definitely threatening and safe enough that you gotta at least bait stuff out.

But watching her fight mario, pikachu, sheik, etc. Characters who just have this privilege to throw out a move covering one option, and still have the mobility to pressure/punish one of her committal CQC options she'd take.

I really think she just needs a dash attack buff. But not much. Either safety, reward(better angle for trapping) or more range. It works wonders for Snake, and Pacman. ROB has Gyro charge + release mix-ups. But Zeldas I always see just having to give up stage control for Fade Back > Knight.

Which can work fine for actual coverage. But if she guesses wrong, she loses stage control and can't do it again. And even if she guesses right, her potential reward is lowered since she can't use knight to trap them while in disadvantage.

 

[BitBitio]

Yeah a midrange burst helps a lot in zoning coverage. This is part of why I like Belmont. He’s got excellent midrange capability thanks to ftilt, dash attack, Holy Water, and dtilt.

 

[Megamang]

Its just weak in a quick game like ult. Like you can reliably approach from that angle and as long as you mix up your timing and space well, you aren't getting sweetspot fair'd. So when she does hit the sour fair, you take nothing and I believe you are in frame advantage... at least effectively, because she is really slow shes not gonna jab you etc. I'll be honest, I haven't played a good Zelda offline so maybe she has more options than I realize but it just seems like a massive weakpoint. If she could space you like Palu fair, then turn around and threaten the sweetspot bair kill, she'd be scarier. I mean the only upside to two repeat moves is ambiguity but like, if you're in front whats gonna happen besides fair? And I guess if you stale the sour fair you can bair to get a non-staled bonus but that pales to having another tool.

I agree a dash attack would be good, but I think those zoners also have a bit more. Snake has grenades to stuff similar approaches, and if you don't have a sword utilt is an amazing anti-air that is really hard to not trade with. Grenades force your movement more than anything Zelda has. Even Pac's fair is better in these early damage neutral situations, it can get some confirms and due to his physics he can nair right after it, hell his nair works for this purpose well too. Rob does have a bit of a blind spot but his nairs and stuff and general gameplan is to keep you from taking that angle, which he succeeds at considerably more. Megaman has more consistent zoning and his fair is pretty damn good now (OMG best QoL buff )...


Yea, maybe i'm kinda just stating the obvious right now because of course she lacks options outside her archetype vs stronger characters... idk. A better dash attack would be awesome. It just seems a bit weird because I think I would trade any of those moves with Zelda's, and its supposed to be a give and take. she has power but I'd think attack cancel bair would cover that option well enough that she could use another piece of her toolkit. I mean for speed-power it is falco level, perhaps im undervaluing that, but at mid-high percents you can play around it.


I love all the phantom swings and it does wonders for her pressure, mixup, edgeguards, etc. I could see this move being a problem if she could also swat you away like Palu, so maybe it has to be that way. Dash attack wouldn't cause that problem so much.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Its just weak in a quick game like ult. Like you can reliably approach from that angle and as long as you mix up your timing and space well, you aren't getting sweetspot fair'd. So when she does hit the sour fair, you take nothing and I believe you are in frame advantage... at least effectively, because she is really slow shes not gonna jab you etc. I'll be honest, I haven't played a good Zelda offline so maybe she has more options than I realize but it just seems like a massive weakpoint. If she could space you like Palu fair, then turn around and threaten the sweetspot bair kill, she'd be scarier. I mean the only upside to two repeat moves is ambiguity but like, if you're in front whats gonna happen besides fair? And I guess if you stale the sour fair you can bair to get a non-staled bonus but that pales to having another tool.

I agree a dash attack would be good, but I think those zoners also have a bit more. Snake has grenades to stuff similar approaches, and if you don't have a sword utilt is an amazing anti-air that is really hard to not trade with. Grenades force your movement more than anything Zelda has. Even Pac's fair is better in these early damage neutral situations, it can get some confirms and due to his physics he can nair right after it, hell his nair works for this purpose well too. Rob does have a bit of a blind spot but his nairs and stuff and general gameplan is to keep you from taking that angle, which he succeeds at considerably more. Megaman has more consistent zoning and his fair is pretty damn good now (OMG best QoL buff )...


Yea, maybe i'm kinda just stating the obvious right now because of course she lacks options outside her archetype vs stronger characters... idk. A better dash attack would be awesome. It just seems a bit weird because I think I would trade any of those moves with Zelda's, and its supposed to be a give and take. she has power but I'd think attack cancel bair would cover that option well enough that she could use another piece of her toolkit. I mean for speed-power it is falco level, perhaps im undervaluing that, but at mid-high percents you can play around it.


I love all the phantom swings and it does wonders for her pressure, mixup, edgeguards, etc. I could see this move being a problem if she could also swat you away like Palu, so maybe it has to be that way. Dash attack wouldn't cause that problem so much.

But why would a Zelda approach with fAir? Yes, you can throw out two in a full hop but the endlag is pretty high.
However, you can use the move to intercept characters and their spacing aerials. It has a frame 6 startup (and is therefore slower than Palu's fAir). It's not a tool for aggressive play at all. The sweetspot is also reliably because, I feel like I repeat this now for the 11th time, it has a visual indicator. Nair can also be used for that. It's a good reason why Mario (even MU btw.) can't really stuff her completely out.

Other than that, Phantom covers a lot of space and you can't approach Zelda from the front and depending on the stage of the Phantom also not from above (the stage where it makes an overhead swing). Reflectors are bad for dealing with Phantom, unless you're Falco.

She has her issues, like the lack of a good poking tool. I heard that Zelda's jab in SSF2 is pretty decent for that. I don't know how it works there but apparantly it's safe on shield. The jab is still better than in Sm4sh because of the faster startup.
That would be great since all of her approach options are unsafe on shield (except maybe a perfectly spaced fAir but even then)

 

[The_Bookworm]

I heard that Zelda's jab in SSF2 is pretty decent for that. I don't know how it works there but apparantly it's safe on shield. The jab is still better than in Sm4sh because of the faster startup.
That would be great since all of her approach options are unsafe on shield (except maybe a perfectly spaced fAir but even then)

Her jab in SSF2, as far as I can tell, has the combo and safety on shield of SSB4 Zelda jab, but the speed of Ultimate Zelda jab.

While Ultimate Zelda is, imo, a solid character, SSF2 Zelda is an entirely different beast.

Huge sweetspots and minimal landing lag on all of her aerials. At least in Ultimate, she has some landing lag on forward and back airs so she cannot abuse them as devious spacing tools (although she can from time to time), but in SSF2, the lag is almost not there. She can also do landing n-airs, and it can lead into a lot of attacks (such as into Lightning Kicks).
Also, her dash attack sends opponents upwards and has some devastating 50/50 mixups, akin to pre-patch SSB4 Sheik. Din's Fire also has a surprising amount of control over its trajectory, although its hitbox is admittedly small.

The engine of SSF2 also generally favors her as well. Among over things like its metagame, due to how stun works in SSF2, her combo capabilities is enhanced due to how much stun her moves do. I might be wrong, but I think her up smash can combo at low percents on certain characters because of that.

So yeah, SSF2 Zelda is kind of nuts. Considered top 5 in that game.
Additionally, Sheik is considered to be the best character in that game, AND they have access to Transform (SSF2 Sheik has Bouncing Fish as her side special).

 

[Anomika]

Would I be wrong if I said that Zelda's Din Fire is terrible? If it was more solid... maybe she would be more relevant, with her edge guarding and ledge trapping being improved (but I don't expect it to ever reach Snake's level)

 

[L9999]

This is also why Zelda should NEVER be made High Tier or anything above that unless y'all were fine with PM 3.02 Zelda.

Or redesign her so she can be functional yet not degenerate. Then again we got Palutena, who was trash in Smash 4 and remained with mostly the same moveset in Ultimate.

 

[Megamang]

But why would a Zelda approach with fAir? Yes, you can throw out two in a full hop but the endlag is pretty high.
However, you can use the move to intercept characters and their spacing aerials. It has a frame 6 startup (and is therefore slower than Palu's fAir). It's not a tool for aggressive play at all. The sweetspot is also reliably because, I feel like I repeat this now for the 11th time, it has a visual indicator. Nair can also be used for that. It's a good reason why Mario (even MU btw.) can't really stuff her completely out.

Other than that, Phantom covers a lot of space and you can't approach Zelda from the front and depending on the stage of the Phantom also not from above (the stage where it makes an overhead swing). Reflectors are bad for dealing with Phantom, unless you're Falco.

She has her issues, like the lack of a good poking tool. I heard that Zelda's jab in SSF2 is pretty decent for that. I don't know how it works there but apparantly it's safe on shield. The jab is still better than in Sm4sh because of the faster startup.
That would be great since all of her approach options are unsafe on shield (except maybe a perfectly spaced fAir but even then)

Its a typo, I omitted her. Read as 'you can reliably approach her'.

I know she shouldn't be approaching. But if she has too it gets bad, and her reflector is laggy enough that a lot of characters can put her in this situation.

 

[Thinkaman]

Broadly speaking, the balance is close enough that it doesn't take much to swing the needle.

Palutena is a great example. She was legitimately towards the bottom in Smash 4, with less serious flaws than some but simply poor numbers all over her moveset. When you look at what changed for Ultimate, the answer is... relatively little. The larger numerical changes are to things like tilts and Explosive Flame, which (while welcome) are not the reason she was played more than any other character in the OrionStats top 150. It's really 3 primary things:

1. Enjoying 100% of the global changes that narrowed the game between the weaker/slower and stronger/faster characters.
2. Higher base knockback + bigger hitboxes on nair being extremely favorable.
3. Large endlag reduction on dash attack.

Palutena was one-and-a-half moves away from being a top tier, and only needed minor numerical tweaks to get there. This is imo evidence arguing in favor of smaller changes, because I would see severe swings like this as a bad thing to have happening every patch.



Also, at what point do we accept that the truism of Mac being self-evidentally-the-worst is Fake News? Asking for a friend.

 

[FruitLoop]

Her jab in SSF2, as far as I can tell, has the combo and safety on shield of SSB4 Zelda jab, but the speed of Ultimate Zelda jab.

While Ultimate Zelda is, imo, a solid character, SSF2 Zelda is an entirely different beast.

Huge sweetspots and minimal landing lag on all of her aerials. At least in Ultimate, she has some landing lag on forward and back airs so she cannot abuse them as devious spacing tools (although she can from time to time), but in SSF2, the lag is almost not there. She can also do landing n-airs, and it can lead into a lot of attacks (such as into Lightning Kicks).
Also, her dash attack sends opponents upwards and has some devastating 50/50 mixups, akin to pre-patch SSB4 Sheik. Din's Fire also has a surprising amount of control over its trajectory, although its hitbox is admittedly small.

The engine of SSF2 also generally favors her as well. Among over things like its metagame, due to how stun works in SSF2, her combo capabilities is enhanced due to how much stun her moves do. I might be wrong, but I think her up smash can combo at low percents on certain characters because of that.

So yeah, SSF2 Zelda is kind of nuts. Considered top 5 in that game.
Additionally, Sheik is considered to be the best character in that game, AND they have access to Transform (SSF2 Sheik has Bouncing Fish as her side special).

SSF2 Zelda is actually broken for completely different reasons even if those reasons do sort of attribute with that.

SSF2 Zelda's Jab wasn't just safe on shield where you could not challenge it, it was flat out +5-7 on Shield in a 30fps game (That's literally overall safer on shield than Plant's Ptooie projectile, i'm not joking. AND THAT'S ON AN EVEN QUICKER MOVE WITH EVEN LESS ENDLAG ON WHIFF WITH HUGE DISJOINTS.) meaning that if you attempted to shield it you were guaranteed to get grabbed no matter what and given how Zelda had actual throw combos + down-throw chaingrabbing meta relevant characters like Falco, Ichigo, and Link. She actually could spam jab since it had no lag and it was absurdly disjointed. The main other big property was how the meta in SSF2 mostly revolved around fully approaching without drift your fastest aerial due to how shorthopping with full momentum allowed you to travel from half of the stage if you mained a semi-fast character meaning that almost every fast character had by default a super safe burst option. Zelda's jab was the antithesis towards this idea as it made it so you could never just throw out aerials from across the stage to maintain pressure which was how characters like Sheik rose to dominance.

Sheik + Zelda combination was actually banned in most official FCR (Basically SSF2's Power Ranking System) Tournaments due to the fact that since you could force change characters with completely different gameplans that were equally as prevalent, you could actually do some real degenerative moves where you could try to force the opponent to let's say counterpick your Sheik with Pac-Man, but then swap to Zelda to abuse that specific matchup. It was things like this that caused Sheilda to be viewed as unhealthy and at minimum it was required for you to specify if you were playing both characters. Also Zelda could not transform into Sheik midcombo like Pokemon Trainer here since her Down-B was way too slow. Also Sheik bouncing fish is actually worse in ssf2 than it is in Ultimate outside of slightly better kill power so eh.

The main thing about Zelda wasn't so much that her particular projectile zoning was any good, in fact moves like Din's fire were considered to be mediocre at best and Nayru's love was only a situational option in disadvantage since she could psuedo-float with it since reflectors don't work properly in ssf2. She was just way too good at abusing the fact that shieldgrab was absurdly good in ssf2 since everyone had a suprisingly disjointed grab range and the shield knockback was quite low + the shield stun was also quite low so you could just grab out of shield with any non-Tether Grab character. This meant that Zelda wasn't required to interact at all for the entirety of SSF2 while having a busted close and midrange option in the form of Jab where you couldn't even go for drift out tomahawk shield or grabs since her Jab just flat out beated everything. Fullhops were really inconsistent and seen as unoptimal neutral options in ssf2 since a lot of characters weren't designed to have very good cohesive gameplans regarding fullhops unless they wanted to camp so they could not just win neutral by trying to attack Zelda's blindspots either.

Zelda was just purely flat out brutal and borderline unwinnable at the midrange for a lot of characters and that + the fact that she actually had safe on shield everything since even back-air was safe for no reason due to the fact that you could do 2 IN A SHORTHOP and it true comboed into eachother at low %, you practically had to just run back and pray you had a good disjointed burst option like Ichigo Dash Attack and other broken moves of the like.

Nair does not confirm into anything super reliable and Up-Tilt is infamous for being super laggy so really the main string was actually just going for nairs then going for either down-tilt or dash attack and from there you'd get your 50/50s but Nair was not the issue.

She also beated out many characters that was relevant in SSF2's meta where she only really arguably lost to possibly Peach due to the fact that her Turnips basically go across 2/3rds of FD so Peach doesn't need to interact to win and may or may not lose to Pikachu and she might go even with like the meta relevant swordies (Ichigo, Link, Lloyd, etc.) and some of the other top tiers. However she won against basically anything else that breath'd or wanted to challenge her with anything.

Also did I mention that Zelda Uncharged Down-Smash unironically kills midweights at 40-50 with DI on FD? Yea Zelda was broken, she was probably more than just top 5, she was a clear top 3 character with some top level players even arguing that she was by far the best character in the game, and while I wouldn't go that far I think it's for more than justified reasons.

If we were to apply this in Ultimate. Of course we all know that SSF2 Zelda has individually better normals compared to Ultimate Zelda where the only issue with her in comparison is the lack of phantom, likely worse on shield F-Smash that kills a little later, no kill throw, a Din's fire that doesnt work on plats, a slower Nayru's love, and most notably a dysfunctional recovery that works like it did in melee for some reason with Up-B OoS not being a thing. However all of these downsides in comparisons to just the very fact that SSF2 Zelda had a formidable mid-range and good ways to get off of rushdown characters from the sole fact that she had safe moves + some jank (mostly the former). I think if we were to be buffing Zelda, having slightly better midrange options or just ways to get rushdown characters to not constantly harass her where she cannot use her phantom and other zoning method gimmicks would definitely be a big buff. However, I think the changes done to Zelda should be very minor just for the safety of Ultimate's Meta lmao.

I actually did used to follow SSF2's Top Level Play Competitive Scene so that's why I know all of this lol. We should lowkey have a board dedicated to SSF2's competitive scene smh

 

[Arthur97]

I'm hesitant to call out any as the absolute best or worst, but in the end, someone has to be worst. I'm also not saying that's Mac. Seems like one of those things people will just say and most will accept it, but barring that, it begs the question of which fighter is worst. Much like with best, I'm not sure we can truly say at the moment.

Though, I do disagree with the notion that he should either be scrapped or completely reworked in the future. Definitely no to the scrapping, but even still, his moveset is really fun casually, and it's a nice concept. If anything, they might need to double down on his ground game, but then he runs the risk of being super over powering in casual play. Unless they can find ways to improve his ground game that wouldn't affect casual play too much.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, the idea that Mac should be tossed in the bin is Reddit/Twitter nonsense. Mac is super fun! One of my favorite to play.

I don't think anyone in Ultimate is a truely flawed design, now that Ice Climbers/Sonic/Zelda have been fixed. (For all the debate of Zelda's shortcomings, the fact that we're even saying things like "all she does is fall back and Phantom" is evidence of how flawed Zelda was when Phantom wasn't useable.)

We just have some questionable hitboxes and a few undertuned numbers here and there. Coming from the Melee and Brawl days, this is paradise.

 

[BitBitio]

Yeah, the idea that Mac should be tossed in the bin is Reddit/Twitter nonsense. Mac is super fun! One of my favorite to play.

I don't think anyone in Ultimate is a truely flawed design, now that Ice Climbers/Sonic/Zelda have been fixed. (For all the debate of Zelda's shortcomings, the fact that we're even saying things like "all she does is fall back and Phantom" is evidence of how flawed Zelda was when Phantom wasn't useable.)

We just have some questionable hitboxes and a few undertuned numbers here and there. Coming from the Melee and Brawl days, this is paradise.

*CoughKirby’sinhaleshieldfthrowstonedairCough*

 

[SwagGuy99]

Also, at what point do we accept that the truism of Mac being self-evidentally-the-worst is Fake News? Asking for a friend.

I mean, there aren't a lot of other choices for worst in the game and they all have a better argument for being a bit better than Mac is when just looking at their strengths compared to his. I won't go over or since I don't really believe they are comparable to these characters in terms of how bad they are.

• is bad, but even if he's still bottom 5, he has enough at this point for him not to be the worst. He has some semblance of a camping game, he deals a lot of damage, solid range, and has a decent(ish) recovery.
• has Villager's f-air and b-air and a good recovery. That alone makes her not the worst.
• has surprisingly good edgeguarding, great kill moves, really good OOS, a good grab game, a really good projectile, really good frame data, and a really good combo game.
• has good range, serviceable frame data, OK OOS options, many strong kill options, some decent edgeguarding options, and can rack up a lot of damage sometimes.
• has OK edgeguarding, a pretty good recovery, and a really strong combo game on fast fallers and larger characters.
• has solid edgeguarding, a pretty good combo game against fast fallers, good frame data, decent ground mobility, good juggling options, a far reaching (but edgeguardable) recovery, and a good grab game.
• has decent frame data, decent range, a decent(ish) recovery, and Revenge.
• has good disjoints, decent juggling options, an OK recovery, Pin, and an OK projectile.
• has solid ground mobility, OK OOS options, some really good grounded moves, and solid frame data.

Looking at Little Mac's strengths compared to everyone else's, they don't stand out that much. He doesn't have a niche at all against any specific type of character, and there are significantly better characters who share similar strengths () without having nearly as many weaknesses meaning that if is better than what we all think, we probably won't find out since nobody has a reason to use him.


I'm not saying he might not be the worst but until we get a ruleset that doesn't have so many stages that are bad for him in it, some major buffs for him in a patch, or someone figures out some godlike tech that makes him work a bit more cohesively, he still is probably going to be most people's prime candidate for the worst.

Here's hoping he gets some not-game-breaking but helpful buffs in patch 7.0.0 along with the other low tiers as well.

TLDR: While most characters seem to have some sort of niche due to their strengths, Little Mac really doesn't. He may not be the worst, but I doubt we'll ever find that out anytime soon since there's no reason to ever use him.

 

[Arthur97]

You say no one has reason to use him, but isn't he used a fair bit in Japan? At least, more than over here in the States.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I'm hesitant to call out any as the absolute best or worst, but in the end, someone has to be worst. I'm also not saying that's Mac. Seems like one of those things people will just say and most will accept it, but barring that, it begs the question of which fighter is worst. Much like with best, I'm not sure we can truly say at the moment.

Though, I do disagree with the notion that he should either be scrapped or completely reworked in the future. Definitely no to the scrapping, but even still, his moveset is really fun casually, and it's a nice concept. If anything, they might need to double down on his ground game, but then he runs the risk of being super over powering in casual play. Unless they can find ways to improve his ground game that wouldn't affect casual play too much.

According to Mr. R, Ganon deserves his own tier:

My updated tier list. I obviously still lack a lot of experience against many of these characters and there's still not enough data to place everyone accurately, but this is what I think for now! pic.twitter.com/TyGrerXYUk

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) January 14, 2020

Yeah, yeah, tier lists are clickbaity, blub blub.
Also he didn't put Mac in the D-tier as well.
One huge reason for that is the fact that Mac does very well in Japan resultwise and I can absolutely see that.
Yes, he gets gimped easily but his ground game is still fairly solid. He may have a very poor MU spread but unlike, for example Ganon, he can get it and mess the opponent up really hard. I don't think it's fair calling him the worst character in this game.

 

[VodkaHaze]

Something to note is apparently has dropped to #39 on the OrionStats 2020. I don't know how much characters fluctuate on the OrionStats, but I remember yesterday Pikachu was #23. Which probably tells us one of four things:

1. OrionStats isn't the most reliable source for determining character placement due to huge shifts in character placement. Can use it as a proxy, but won't give highly accurate readings on who's the best char
2. Pikachu is about as popular as smallpox, probably because Pokemon fans rooted for Team Rocket, which is why no one plays this character.
3. Pikachu isn't actually as good as people think, and if Pikachu truly were the menace people make it out to be, we would expect to see it in the Top 10 at least, yet it isn't even Top 20.
4. Pikachu is still good, but is very difficult to play, which is why people stay clear of it.

According to Mr. R, Ganon deserves his own tier:

My updated tier list. I obviously still lack a lot of experience against many of these characters and there's still not enough data to place everyone accurately, but this is what I think for now! pic.twitter.com/TyGrerXYUk

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) January 14, 2020

Yeah, yeah, tier lists are clickbaity, blub blub.
Also he didn't put Mac in the D-tier as well.
One huge reason for that is the fact that Mac does very well in Japan resultwise and I can absolutely see that.
Yes, he gets gimped easily but his ground game is still fairly solid. He may have a very poor MU spread but unlike, for example Ganon, he can get it and mess the opponent up really hard. I don't think it's fair calling him the worst character in this game.

I agree that is the worst superheavy in the game. Because the five other popular contenders () have that little bit extra which makes them avoid being the worst.

 

[Game7a1]

Something to note is apparently has dropped to #39 on the OrionStats 2020. I don't know how much characters fluctuate on the OrionStats, but I remember yesterday Pikachu was #23. Which probably tells us one of four things:

1. OrionStats isn't the most reliable source for determining character placement due to huge shifts in character placement. Can use it as a proxy, but won't give highly accurate readings on who's the best char
2. Pikachu is about as popular as smallpox, probably because Pokemon fans rooted for Team Rocket, which is why no one plays this character.
3. Pikachu isn't actually as good as people think, and if Pikachu truly were the menace people make it out to be, we would expect to see it in the Top 10 at least, yet it isn't even Top 20.
4. Pikachu is still good, but is very difficult to play, which is why people stay clear of it.

OrionStats resets the scores of every character upon a new season. Otherwise, every character from Banjo to Sonic in the previous season would have needed at most 100.5 points to surpass Pikachu (assuming Pikachu gained no points), and that's incredibly unlikely to happen in a 4-week span.

The start of a season usually doesn't give enough information on each character, so it would be best to come back a few weeks later to revisit OrionStats when more events have happened.

 

[VodkaHaze]

OrionStats resets the scores of every character upon a new season. Otherwise, every character from Banjo to Sonic in the previous season would have neededat most 100.5 points to surpass Pikachu (assuming Pikachu gained no points), and that's incredibly unlikely to happen in a 4-week span.

The start of a season usually doesn't give enough information on each character, so it would be best to come back a few weeks later to revisit OrionStats when more events have happened.

Thanks for explaining why the third season fluctuates so much. However, even looking at seasons 1 and 2, Pikachu isn't in the Top 20 of both those seasons. And maybe part of the reason why Pikachu had a poor showing in those seasons was Pichu, but unless season 3 comes and makes the character the threat that everyone says it is, I'll still maintain that it isn't popular, and it opens the possibility that it just isn't that good in the current metagame.