Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rizen]

Speaking of Kongo Saga kickoff, Quik's making look high tier, beating Samsora 2-0.

Samus is a little like ROB in this game with surprisingly good frame data for a projectile character but held back by a large hurtbox. She has things like a f3 jab, f4 OoS upB, and f6 Fair that has good range. Charge shot is really good and so is her recovery. Why don't we see more of this character?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Samus had a great matchup Vs Peach since Melee I remember. Just more prominent and important now because Peach is high tier.

DK is also not looking as bottom tier since Kongo Saga honestly. Plenty of DKs did well against high and Top Tiers.

In general, Kongo Saga was great for the DKC cast. K.Rool also did quite well. As did Diddy of course. Hope it helps people value these characters better.

 

[TennisBall]

Speaking of Kongo Saga kickoff, Quik's making look high tier, beating Samsora 2-0.

Samus is a little like ROB in this game with surprisingly good frame data for a projectile character but held back by a large hurtbox. She has things like a f3 jab, f4 OoS upB, and f6 Fair that has good range. Charge shot is really good and so is her recovery. Why don't we see more of this character?

A Frame 3 Jab? That's a really good get-off-me tool, is what I would say if it wasn't minus on hit, and that you can actually shield the second hit......
Samus may be good but damn she just doesn't work sometimes....

 

[Anomika]

Sadly, the jab 2 not being true until high percentages is actually a "feature", it's mentioned in the tips, and it's going to remain that way. The tips mention about the player running after hitting the jab 1... At least it has low endlag, but it's far from being useful for sending the opponent away from you

 

[Minordeth]

Samus jab 1 is an amazing tool that works as it should: as a mixup tool on shield. It functions as a traditional poke and forms part of the basis of her strong close range game.

Samus’ goal is to start a combo which she can do through her throw or through various CS charges. Jab 1 is extremely valuable as it can allow the Samus player to gain further information on the opponent’s habits.

Do they try to punish? Do they stay in shield? Do they jump? Do they roll away?

At close range, Samus is extremely adaptable, and forces the opponent into a guessing game.

If she begins charging CS, will she cancel it into grab?

Call her bluff and attack before she can!

Wait, what if she cancels it into shield to stuff a dash-in?

Dash grab!

Wait, what if she cancels CS into jab 1 to stuff the dash grab?

Aerial attack!

Wait, no, she will CS cancel into Fair to stuff you.

What if you empty hop to bait her fair?

CS cancel to Zair.

Well, if you sit in shield, you can react to her grab!

Oh, she just jab 1’d your shield.

It’s a bait!

Aaaand she crouch canceled jab 1 into grab and now you are getting comboed. Whoops.

 

[NairWizard]

Although I'm not sure that I actually believe this, it's worth donating the notion to the public mind: Game and Watch has a strong case for being the best character in the game, held back only by representation. He loses a handful of matchups against massive/safe disjoints (Palutena, ZSS, Lucina, maybe Ike or Shulk), but what character doesn't lose a handful of matchups? Joker and Pikachu, seen often in the discourse about top 2-3, have several losing MUs themselves.

Three major points in his favor:

1. In the matchups that he does lose, he still has winning tools/neutral situations. Game and Watch dash attack is extremely strong against Lucina, for example. This means that Game and Watch never loses a matchup more than -1. This is very different from a character like ROB who crumbles completely against his losing matchups, or even the likes of Joker and Pikachu in their bad MUs (Joker looks fairly helpless against Pichu; Pikachu struggles hard vs. Game and Watch himself).
2. His hurtbox, disadvantage state, and mobility/weaving are overall very good, despite a few subpar specs, so there's nothing universally exploitable in his kit, meaning that you can't just learn to play against Game and Watch in general, you have to learn the details of your specific character's MU against him.
3. He himself is a hard loss MU for several other prominent top characters, such as Pikachu, Peach, and Fox. Other top-tier contenders like Palutena have very strong MUs against the lower half of the cast, but face even matchups in the upper tiers. Game and Watch crushes most low tiers, most mid tiers, half the high tiers, and some top tiers. His winning matchups are almost entirely tier-agnostic.

I have a hard time seeing this character lower than #5 or #6, but given time to develop the ZSS and Palutena matchups, a #1 spot is not out of the question.

 

[Alicorn]

I think Pit needs more reputation, he is the most balanced character and is very entertaining to watch when played well. Though people tend to sleep on him. Why is that?

 

[KakuCP9]

Although I'm not sure that I actually believe this, it's worth donating the notion to the public mind: Game and Watch has a strong case for being the best character in the game, held back only by representation. He loses a handful of matchups against massive/safe disjoints (Palutena, ZSS, Lucina, maybe Ike or Shulk), but what character doesn't lose a handful of matchups? Joker and Pikachu, seen often in the discourse about top 2-3, have several losing MUs themselves.

Three major points in his favor:

1. In the matchups that he does lose, he still has winning tools/neutral situations. Game and Watch dash attack is extremely strong against Lucina, for example. This means that Game and Watch never loses a matchup more than -1. This is very different from a character like ROB who crumbles completely against his losing matchups, or even the likes of Joker and Pikachu in their bad MUs (Joker looks fairly helpless against Pichu; Pikachu struggles hard vs. Game and Watch himself).
2. His hurtbox, disadvantage state, and mobility/weaving are overall very good, despite a few subpar specs, so there's nothing universally exploitable in his kit, meaning that you can't just learn to play against Game and Watch in general, you have to learn the details of your specific character's MU against him.
3. He himself is a hard loss MU for several other prominent top characters, such as Pikachu, Peach, and Fox. Other top-tier contenders like Palutena have very strong MUs against the lower half of the cast, but face even matchups in the upper tiers. Game and Watch crushes most low tiers, most mid tiers, half the high tiers, and some top tiers. His winning matchups are almost entirely tier-agnostic.

I have a hard time seeing this character lower than #5 or #6, but given time to develop the ZSS and Palutena matchups, a #1 spot is not out of the question.

I can see Gdubs being top tier, though I'm not sure if he's number one. I feel Joker's combination of guns in neutral to force/shut down approaches and general Aresene malarkey makes him more likely to be #1 while Game and Watch isn't as good at forcing the opponent's hand if they don't need to approach outside maaybe bullying bad air mobility characters with chef ( which is much better as ledge-trapping tool). He has good tools to break down zones, but they all come with certain risks (dash attack is super unsafe on block and doesn't cross-over like Snake's DA, fair has a blind spot due to the time based detonation of the bomb, bair's landing lag, nair isn't good at hitting grounded opponents etc). I can see him being better than characters like Palu and Pkmn trainer who cover their weakness with skewed risk-reward, though I think Joker's ability to take initiative or force the opponent to do so outshines Gdubs ATM (plus Pika/ Pichu are way less common than Lucina/Palu).

 

[Frihetsanka]

He loses a handful of matchups against massive/safe disjoints (Palutena, ZSS, Lucina, maybe Ike or Shulk), but what character doesn't lose a handful of matchups?

The Lucina matchup isn't even guaranteed to be losing, Maister and MkLeo both think it's even, and I think you could make a reasonable case for it being even.

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

GNW is probably Marcina's most un-interactive MU. I personally think it's +1/slightly winning/55-45/etc for Marcina.
We swing, he up Bs OoS, and then resets neutral if we do something unsafe, He comes offstage at kill percents to edge guard us somewhat well or trade if we go low, or trys to bury us via d smash >f smash/tilt. Foward Air will still get us smacked by up b a lot of the time (N-air CAN be safe at max distance). ronically, SH D-air is probably the safest aerial we have on GNW shield. At the same time what holds GNW back the most in the MU (and imo what prevents it from really being even) is he can't really punish you for not approaching and doesn't have amazing tools to get through our grounded Anti-Air tools in F-Tilt, U-Tilt, SH F-air. Counter also kinda bullies any landing options GNW tries to do after Up-B and crouch > Up-Tilt/Smash on plat stages if he dairs (trying to hit him on the way down will just get us hit) unless he runs back to the ledge if we don't jump after them.
Just some thoughts on the MU since it was mentioned, for those that may not know much on it

 

[SwagGuy99]

I think Pit needs more reputation, he is the most balanced character and is very entertaining to watch when played well. Though people tend to sleep on him. Why is that?

It's mostly that he doesn't doesn't stick out in a cast of 80 characters, almost all of which have at least one really good trait that makes them notable in some way.

With (and ) they don't really have anything that stands out at all.

Recovery is fine, combos are fine, range is actually pretty good (but people fall out of his moves at times and the hitboxes can be deceivingly small at times), kill power is not that great (for , has Electroshock Arm which can cheese stocks somewhat early), neutral is fine, juggling is fine, disadvantage isn't the worse, nothing about Pit stands out except his edgeguarding IMO, which (while pretty good) still isn't that notable since there are other top and high tiers that are easy to play that can edgeguard better ( for example).

There's pretty much no reason for a top player to play him when they can just play a character who does some of the same things that Pit does but significantly better.

 

[TennisBall]

I think Pit needs more reputation, he is the most balanced character and is very entertaining to watch when played well. Though people tend to sleep on him. Why is that?

The problem with Pit is that...
A)He is very underrepresented and generally is barely played.
B)A fair amount of his hitboxes don't work correctly. that poor poor Nair.
C)Combined with some average tools in a game where having good tools and bad tools is better than having average tools, it makes Pit look not the best.

 

[Arthur97]

It's mostly that he doesn't doesn't stick out in a cast of 80 characters, almost all of which have at least one really good trait that makes them notable in some way.

With (and ) they don't really have anything that stands out at all.

Recovery is fine, combos are fine, range is actually pretty good (but people fall out of his moves at times and the hitboxes can be deceivingly small at times), kill power is not that great (for , has Electroshock Arm which can cheese stocks somewhat early), neutral is fine, juggling is fine, disadvantage isn't the worse, nothing about Pit stands out except his edgeguarding IMO, which (while pretty good) still isn't that notable since there are other top and high tiers that are easy to play that can edgeguard better ( for example).

There's pretty much no reason for a top player to play him when they can just play a character who does some of the same things that Pit does but significantly better.

You think Pac-Man is easy to play?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Speaking of Samus, shameless plug for my latest guide

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjtH-G7wdfs

This isn't new tech, it's fairly old although many players still don't know how or when to use it. You can see YB using it way back in prime saga. Enjoy! Merry Xmas!

 

[Anomika]

It sounds more like that they have more options to edgeguard, and thus it's easier for them to go offstage and do it? I know that these four characters have great edgeguarding potential, but I wouldn't count Pits out either. In a few cases a simple arrow is enough to gimp the opponent too...

 

[williamsga555]

The Pits are blessed with a few very appealing characteristics. They have access to numerous "solid" options for nearly any gamestate, on top of having some of the best burst-range pokes in terms of startup→space covered. In general they have an excellent range:startup ratio across their entire kit, and have decent enough mobility options to deal with most of what this game will throw at them.

But, much as it was in Smash 4, having such a generous helping of options leads to a few conundrums for the player: in the land of numerous good options, where are the great ones?
Frankly, the Pits are one of the few characters in the cast who seem to have nothing that others would consider "oppressive." They can't abuse anything in particular to frustrate the opponent or bend their options towards a particular gamestate.

For example, looking at the matchup against D3 (a character who clearly has deficiencies against a number of different gameplans), what exactly do they do to prevent him from playing his game?

• They can poke with arrows, but the reward for doing so is trivial, and they lack good enough mobility to truly circle-camp with them
• They can play a mid-range, hit-and-run style neutral with reliance on burst range options (arrows, dash attack, RAR bair [granted, not exactly "burst," but the space it covers in such a short time is solid]...), but again they lack the reward to truly commit to this for long enough to take down someone as hefty as D3
• They can play a more defensive, reactionary neutral with reliance on superior OOS and air-to-air options, but then they run the risk of D3's superior grab reward (until high percents, anyway)
• They can play aggressively, focusing on horizontal pressure and edgeguarding, but then they run the risk of trading (which D3 should always win) or overextending

There may be more strategies than this, naturally, and there's something to be said about their ability to play adaptively and switch on-the-fly as needed. It's also not my intention to paint these as necessarily bad options either...rather, it's to show that there's no significant risk-reward swing in their favor for any of them. There's always sufficient counterplay or notable risk involved at all points, despite D3's shortcomings.

Compare that with, say, D3's matchup against G&W. If G&W wants to abuse chef against D3, what exactly does D3 do about it? He has to really go out of his way to get G&W to stop, but most of those options play right into G&W's most optimal situations (juggling, punishing landings, or getting a grab).

The point is that the Pits are a lot like Banjo, minus Wonderwing; numerous good options, but nothing scary enough to really force your opponent to respect it.

...

(for the record, I think this makes the Pits very entertaining to watch, and I'm anxiously awaiting the day Earth comes back to us)

 

[Anomika]

Pits are definitely fun to play and interesting to watch (at least for me), but somewhat lackluster representation hurts, it would help me if there were more players so I could have more VoDs to watch. Also about Earth... How long do they need to wait to play Smash again? Also I read the comments on Twitch that they had retired from competitive (it could be possible that someone misunderstood that)?

 

[Lacrimosa]

Glutonny's tier-list:

My 6.1 Tier List

-Mii's are not rankable cause they change according to there specials but they globaly are mid +

-Counterpicks = They have 10-0 matchups but have free win matchups too so i prefer to put them separatly

-Solo Viable = A+ or more

-TRIED to order

-Zelda>Sheik pic.twitter.com/AlAMKQPM1b

— SLY | Glutonny (@GlutonnySSB) December 24, 2019

 

[The_Bookworm]

Glutonny's tier-list:

My 6.1 Tier List

-Mii's are not rankable cause they change according to there specials but they globaly are mid +

-Counterpicks = They have 10-0 matchups but have free win matchups too so i prefer to put them separatly

-Solo Viable = A+ or more

-TRIED to order

-Zelda>Sheik pic.twitter.com/AlAMKQPM1b

— SLY | Glutonny (@GlutonnySSB) December 24, 2019

Solid list overall.
Still confused why some top players, especially from Japan, are rating so high when he has done barely anything so far in tournaments, especially in comparison to the other characters ranked near him in those lists.

I don't know any notable European Lucas players, let alone one that does so well that would convince him to rank him this high.

 

[boysilver400]

So can someone explain why isn’t commonly considered top 5? Because I have a hard time believing she’s anywhere below that at this point yet no top player outside of Gluto seems to think she is because “ZSS sux lul

 

[Alicorn]

I think its because they nerfed ZZS's kit in Ultimate, remembering Forglory many ZZS mains I fought would up air string you into the blastzone with up B as a finisher, you don't see the combo much in Ultimate because they nerfed it. So ZZS mains try to go for the down B burial to up B string its not nearly as reliable as it was previous game.

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, ZSS has to overcome the stigma of losing some of what made her great in 4 even if she's still amazing. Plus, have we not determined how unreliable going off pro tier lists can be?

 

[PK Gaming]

Gluto's tier list is good and unique in the sense that he doesn't subscribe to boring template character placements. Like placing Pikachu at 11th and citing actual reasons for why its flawed (killing, light, and poor range).

I think Pit needs more reputation, he is the most balanced character and is very entertaining to watch when played well. Though people tend to sleep on him. Why is that?

This myth needs to die. Pit is deficient in key areas (KOing, airspeed, aerials, pressure) which is why he's widely regarded as one of the worst characters in this game.

 

[SwagGuy99]

You think Pac-Man is easy to play?

I guess that's not what I meant. I kind of meant that he has better edgeguarding than Pit, but I should have been more clear about that.

 

[Bobert]

There seems to be a misconception going around that Pit is some perfectly balanced character, and this has stuck around since Smash 4. Pit is incredibly basic, but he isn't balanced. He's fairly underwhelming in most areas compared to the rest of the roster, and he is borderline broken in this game.

His hitboxes on certain moves make no sense and are noticably much smaller than the animations for said moves. Nair and Fair are huge offenders of this and are supposed to be his main moves. You can completely fall out of these moves and punish him on hit sometimes as well, even at a high %. The same thing can happen with fsmash. Nobody should ever be able to punish you for landing a huge commitment move like an f-smash.

The arms specials are supposed to have super armor but it seems like it doesn't work half of the time. It doesnt help that upperdash arm is pathetically weak for how unsafe it is. Electroshock is better since it can kill decently at the ledge but still has the super armor problem.

Having broken, poorly designed hitboxes doesn't help that he has virtually no good kill moves, low damage, horrible airspeed, low jumps, and shockingly short disjoints for a character with swordie frame data.

(Also, sorry if some of my writing and grammar is off also. I typed all of that on my phone's keyboard.)

 

[Anomika]

It's true that he has inconsistent multi-hits all over the board... It's more like he would be "completely honest" if every move worked as it should. I do think that getting stronger side specials would make them a tiny bit less honest, but for how laggy that move is, it's not a big deal. I'm still surprised how non-disjointed moves can beat Pit's nair and fair and it honestly makes me sad. I understand that I need to put good work to dish out damage and kill, but having inconsistent moves definitely hurts him a lot. They buffed him one time, maybe they will do it again, hopefully sooner than later.

My main gripes with this game is shield poking in certain MUs and inconsistent multihits...

 

[Daisycakes]

There seems to be a misconception going around that Pit is some perfectly balanced character, and this has stuck around since Smash 4. Pit is incredibly basic, but he isn't balanced. He's fairly underwhelming in most areas compared to the rest of the roster, and he is borderline broken in this game.

His hitboxes on certain moves make no sense and are noticably much smaller than the animations for said moves. Nair and Fair are huge offenders of this and are supposed to be his main moves. You can completely fall out of these moves and punish him on hit sometimes as well, even at a high %. The same thing can happen with fsmash. Nobody should ever be able to punish you for landing a huge commitment move like an f-smash.

The arms specials are supposed to have super armor but it seems like it doesn't work half of the time. It doesnt help that upperdash arm is pathetically weak for how unsafe it is. Electroshock is better since it can kill decently at the ledge but still has the super armor problem.

Having broken, poorly designed hitboxes doesn't help that he has virtually no good kill moves, low damage, horrible airspeed, low jumps, and shockingly short disjoints for a character with swordie frame data.

(Also, sorry if some of my writing and grammar is off also. I typed all of that on my phone's keyboard.)

The Pits have better framedata than some other swordies (cough Marcina cough Chroy cough). Their jab for example, is frame 4. F smash is frame 10. Their back air is near lagless when landing, it’s an Inkling back air that can kill quicker than a Lucina back air.

Give the Pits better hitboxes and they would be better than most characters.

 

[Vyrnx]

The Pits have better framedata than some other swordies (cough Marcina cough Chroy cough). Their jab for example, is frame 4. F smash is frame 10. Their back air is near lagless when landing, it’s an Inkling back air that can kill quicker than a Lucina back air.

Give the Pits better hitboxes and they would be better than most characters.

Unfortunately for Pit's jab, it's one of the moves that received a pretty significant range nerf between games (along with Samus' ftilt, a much worse nerf, and PIt's fsmash for that matter), it went from a pretty interesting midranged option (same range as Marth's jab in Smash 4 iirc--another move that got a range nerf) to whatever it is now. At the very least it had its startup buffed.

It's definitely not all bad for the Pits. They're retained or improved on several strengths between games, three notable examples being juggling, grab game and already mentioned range/frame data ratio on some moves. Nair is a really good move and I'm always surprised to see it first mentioned in Pit's issues because of the animation. this move does almost everything--beats jumps, beats spot dodge, more than safe on shield because of its extremely generous auto cancel window five frames after the final hit, frame 4 oos option on all sides of Pit, free platform pressure from a short hop, and combos into other moves. It also literally never fails to connect, unless maybe you're fast falling with it off stage like it's Palu's nair. As is it's one of the best nairs in the game--I think either with the improved range often suggested or by increasing Pit's air speed it would become pretty obnoxious, in the first case as an oos option and in the second since it would turn true the nearly existent cross stage nair drag combos (and off of an easy to land move). It isn't personally the direction I would choose for Pit buffs.

Besides that he has a great grab game off of an excellent dash grab. Down throw combos were buffed in this game--the dthrow dair nair combo had its window widened and it's even easier than before, dthrow nair fair dash attack (or regrab mixup) into juggle situation is a thing now, dthrow bair is sometimes a thing at later percents, etc. He also has a high damaging throw that puts you in a juggle (uthrow) as well as a kill throw. And as far as juggling he's still great, disjointed multihit uair for keeping a juggle, fast disjointed usmash for kills, and dash attack for catching landings (and if not stale then you can definitely net kills with it in this game).

Some of his moves are pretty weird and the issues mostly lie with his hurtboxes rather than hitboxes, but in some cases it's a combination of both. A lot of Pit's animations involve lunging his arms in the direction of the move while performing it, one of the worst cases being usmash. On the first two hits of usmash Pit swings his arms above his head, which already isn't ideal since there are hurtboxes attached, but on the last hit he actually throws his entire body upwards and extends his arm up just before the hitbox becomes active. This leads to a lot of unexpected trades, which on multihit moves are pretty unfortunate. Another example is on fair, where again Pit throws his arm out, extending his hurtbox, and the actual hitbox is pretty small and only active for a total of three frames, one frame for each hit. Other bad hurtbox offenders here would be ftilt, bair, and fsmash.

But anyway--Pit's most significant issue is that he doesn't have any way to compete with midrange bait and punish. He can make do when he lands hits, his advantage state as I already described is good, his kill power isn't fantastic, but I think it's sufficient. He can kind of force approaches (especially Dark Pit), his nair is amazing--but midranged bait and punish is where he loses.

Think about it like this--if you're playing a midranged bait and punish game against Pit, what can he really do? Let's say that "midrange" here means just outside of Pit's dash, so that you've done your best to remove the possibility of getting naired or dash grabbed, probably his two best moves. Now what does he have left? His aerial options are basically limited to fair and bair, where both are fairly slow on startup and have relatively small hitboxes (and in the case of bair a pretty bad sourspot...), and both of these moves are locked behind one of the slowest air speeds in the game. As for ground options, he has dash attack, but neutral isn't usually the situation where you'd want to use it, especially vs any bait and punish character. Then you have dtilt and ftilt. Ftilt is almost an interesting move especially in a game where you can tilt out of dash, good range, good active frames, but it has too much startup and endlag. Then dtilt is okay, a significantly improved move since Smash 4, but here's the point where you have to acknowledge that midrange bait and punish is Ultimate's meta right now and an okay dtilt isn't enough for him.

This scenario I just described may not be possible for some characters--not all characters can successfully play a midranged bait and punish game. They may lack the right air speed, the right aerials, etc (and this group includes Pit himself). But a lot of characters can (Peach, Mario, Joker, Wario, Wolf, ZSS, pretty much every other one of the best characters in the game). Or in some cases a character has some way of disrupting this gameplan (like charge shot). But Pit doesn't have either of these, and so he's a bad character. Buffing startup on his bair was a good first step, but it will take much more.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Give the Pits better hitboxes and they would be better than most characters.

Honestly I don't believe most of these "The Pits are some of the worst characters" comments will last.
Not just because there are weaker characters then them (EX: ), but also since this cycle of "Oh this one niche character is actually terrible." happens all the time.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pit was honestly never really used much competitively, only Earth from Japan played this character intensively.

But I do think K.Rool, Ganondorf and Dr.Mario are better characters than the Pits.

 

[epicnights]

The arms specials are supposed to have super armor but it seems like it doesn't work half of the time. It doesnt help that upperdash arm is pathetically weak for how unsafe it is. Electroshock is better since it can kill decently at the ledge but still has the super armor problem.

The main issue with Pit’s side-b is in the frame data of the side-b. The side-b has super armor starting frame 11 to frame 26, or until the hurtbox detector recognizes a hurtbox, activating the swing. There are two connected issues, however: the hurtbox detectors are pathetically small, and the swing itself loses the super armor before a hitbox is out. This leads to moves that linger like fox n-air activating the detector hitbox on one frame, then connecting with Pit’s hurtbox next frame, leading to the Pit player potentially getting punished for calling out an option with a move designed for calling out attacks. It’s rough out there for Pit mains.

 

[Rizen]

In Pit's defense, multi-hit attacks in general are inconsistent in this game. I've complained about YL's FSmash and upB before and seen things like Olimar fall out of ZSS' Boost kick. Any time you have multiple hits there's a freak chance that the opponent will fall out due to positioning, DI or just jank.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So, I looked into a bit more to see if I was undervaluing him as a character or not.

So, I looked at his hitboxes, stats, frame data, etc. and I came to the conclusion that he's less of a rushdown character (like I was viewing him as before) and more of a glass cannon. His hitboxes on his normals are crap, he's very easy to combo, he isn't too hard to juggle, he's not too heavy, his grab game is somewhat lackluster at times and he can be camped out by some characters. However, he also has some strong KO moves (especially depending on the special moves he is using), his edgeguarding with shot-put is decent, his combo game is surprisingly good, his frame-data is solid, and he is actually really fast as well.

So, while he isn't as bad as I thought he was, I still think of the notable glass cannons of Ultimate () he's still probably the worst of them although he's probably a low mid tier as opposed to a low or bottom tier like I thought before.

Honestly I don't believe most of these "The Pits are some of the worst characters" comments will last.
Not just because there are weaker characters then them (EX: ), but also since this cycle of "Oh this one niche character is actually terrible." happens all the time.

This is true. I don't think / are terrible, it's just that they don't have anyone notable pioneering their meta in a direction that makes them more appealing to play than any other character. Also, while they aren't trash, the are still probably lower mid tier at best which doesn't help either.

 

[Nebunera]

I think just feels way too underwhelming compared to other brawlers ( ), which to me is what holds him back a lot.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Pit was honestly never really used much competitively, only Earth from Japan played this character intensively.

It has been that way since Brawl.

However, despite this, Earth managed to be a consistent top 30 (even top 20) player with solo Pit in both Brawl and the first half of SSB4.
However, when he became less active / metagame advanced, his results became less consistent as well, and him picking up Corrin did very little to help.

Still makes me wonder how hard he can push the character in Ultimate if he is actually allowed to play the game competitively.
Same thing with Ranai with and 9B with [insert technical character].

 

[SwagGuy99]

I think just feels way too underwhelming compared to other brawlers ( ), which to me is what holds him back a lot.

I still think he is held back in a lot of ways compared to some of the others. His hitboxes are not great, and his combo game isn't nearly as good as some of the better brawlers which does hold him back a lot. He's still probably bottom 20 IMO, but I can see him being able to cheese some matchups against better characters like or if he can start a combo.

 

[Nobie]

I posted this earlier in the thread, but here's some Earth Pit footage from September. I think it was just some friendly matches with a Brawl veteran named Kaito, but judge for yourself what Pit can do in the hands of an experienced main:

 

[KirbySquad101]

10char delete

 

[Lacrimosa]

They really gutted Pichu's killpower into oblivion, didn't they.
Just played after a long time a Pichu online (in the most ridiculous lag btw. and this char became ultra rare) and nothing killed. Pichu still a ton of damage, though.

So, how'S the general perception of this character? I still see him in high-tier, where he probably belongs to, but I don't really think he scratches the top-tier region by a long shot.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

They really gutted Pichu's killpower into oblivion, didn't they.
Just played after a long time a Pichu online (in the most ridiculous lag btw. and this char became ultra rare) and nothing killed. Pichu still a ton of damage, though.

So, how'S the general perception of this character? I still see him in high-tier, where he probably belongs to, but I don't really think he scratches the top-tier region by a long shot.

Sounds like they didn't nail up-throw Thunder.

Character is still high tier, they just have weakness that matter more then the top tiers.