Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Cracke]

Can we take a second to look at how varied the meta is right now? Even in the top eight, we have zero copying, and if we do have copying it's in secondaries. I love how balanced our roster is.

and we got greninja at top eight at an S-tier lets goooooooo.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Lucina's results seem rather lackluster lately. ProtoBanham got 25th at Kongo Saga, 257th (!) at Umebura SP 7, and three 5th places in a row at Umebura 6, 5, and EVO 2019 (which is very good!). Mr. E got 33rd at Kongo Saga, 13th at DreamHack Atlanta, 65th at The Big House, 25th Shine, 33rd Super Smash Con, 129th EVO. Is Lucina doing worse because people are figuring her out and she's not as good as people originally think? Are the top Lucina players just not playing well enough? Or is there some other reason for her somewhat lackluster results lately?

I imagine things would be very different if MkLeo still mained Lucina, though I wonder if he would've been as dominant as he is with Joker. Personally, I'm inclined to believe Joker is a better character and that he's one of the reasons (though obviously not the only reason) MkLeo is doing so well.

 

[bc1910]

Lea becomes the first Greninja player to get top 8 at an S-tier. Good stuff.

Greninja is solidly top 10 in both Orionstats and the European rankings posted a few pages back. The character’s results lulled after the initial hype over him but are back in force now. Detractors can’t even say he lacks results at top level since they are clearly there between Lea’s performance, European results (mainly Elexiao) and Venia’s strong performances at B/C-tiers. Venia also displays total dominance at local level in one of the strongest regions in the US. He won Xenosaga again this week and I can’t remember the last time he dropped a tournament, let alone a set, to anyone besides certified top players, NickC (who is making strides toward the PGR and is probably the best Falcon in the world right now) and a random loss to Vivi’s Lucario this week whom he then double eliminated in Grands.

Greninja is curiously absent from most discussion surrounding top tiers, perhaps because he’s not a common character, but I have seen some begin to stir from their lengthy sleeps. Zackray putting him 12th is significantly higher than many other top players have placed him lately. The character is, and always has been, ludicrous with the right pilot.

From a MU perspective only Snake has been able to consistently gatekeep Greninja at top level and even he is getting easier to handle (Elexaio beat Mr R’s Snake 2-1 at VCA, forcing him onto Chrom). Having potentially one losing MU with a couple of question marks like ROB and Fox is close to a Pikachu tier MU spread. Whilst MU theory is largely too subjective for my tastes, it’s hard to ignore the lack of non-Snake characters who have a solidly positive record against Greninja at this point.

Is Greninja a top 10 character? Probably.

Is Greninja a top tier character? Easily.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I'll never get how people and players put Sheik above Zelda when one of the best Sm4sh Sheiks with VoiD still can't get her to work after like one year.

is just extremely hard to play in this game. She has all of the tools that she needs to be a decent character, it's just that she needs to win more neutral interactions than most other characters in order to take a stock and she does have a notable lack of kill moves onstage. I think that the optimal way to play in this game is with a much heavier focus on edgeguarding against most of the cast because there are a lot of characters that can do well against her onstage that can't do much of anything once they are offstage due to her pressure with f-air, n-air, b-air, needles, up-b, and even her grenade.

In terms of matchups against relevant characters, I can see possibly being decent as she can combo him hard and exploit his recovery well. I can also see being OK since his disadvantage is probably the worst out of any high tier and he can't survive as long as characters like and due to his lighter weight.

I personally don't see as bad (probably bordering on high tier but could be mid tier), but you kind of have to wonder why you'd ever play her when there are other characters who share similar strengths and weaknesses but are less polarizing.

 

[|RK|]

I said it before, I'll say it again. ZeRo's needle usage in S4 set him apart from the rest by a lot.

VoiD and Mr. R didn't use needles nearly as much, and I still don't get why.

Example, vs Gackt.

 

[blackghost]

. Whilst MU theory is largely too subjective for my tastes, it’s hard to ignore the lack of non-Snake characters who have a solidly positive record against Greninja at this point.

.

i need clarification on this. are you saying a bunch of character have good records vs greninja or few characters have winning records vs greninja?

 

[Lacrimosa]

Lucina's results seem rather lackluster lately. ProtoBanham got 25th at Kongo Saga, 257th (!) at Umebura SP 7, and three 5th places in a row at Umebura 6, 5, and EVO 2019 (which is very good!). Mr. E got 33rd at Kongo Saga, 13th at DreamHack Atlanta, 65th at The Big House, 25th Shine, 33rd Super Smash Con, 129th EVO. Is Lucina doing worse because people are figuring her out and she's not as good as people originally think? Are the top Lucina players just not playing well enough? Or is there some other reason for her somewhat lackluster results lately?

I imagine things would be very different if MkLeo still mained Lucina, though I wonder if he would've been as dominant as he is with Joker. Personally, I'm inclined to believe Joker is a better character and that he's one of the reasons (though obviously not the only reason) MkLeo is doing so well.

Maybe it has something to do with adaptation to Lucina (I for example do much better against Lucinas now than at the beginning and I'm a total scrub at Smash, so you can bet that top-players adapt much better) and her linear gameplan, whatever that may be. You cqan only do so much with Lucina but you will hit a ceiling pretty fast. Is it reached yet? Probably not but it gets harder to push her meta further and with the first reason in place people will catch up to her and they seemingly did after one year.
She's still a very good character but maybe a tad too fundamental than for example Joker. I saw Leo extending combos much better and getting more percents with stray bullet hits at Kongo Saga, something I don't think he was doing during EVO.

 

[Minordeth]

Protobanham went entirely Inkling in his 0-2 loss to Big D, so his placement isn’t squarely Lucina’s shoulders.

To add an additional wrinkle, in his 257th placing at Umebura SP 7, he lost to Daiki, who plays - get this - Ice Climbers.

 

[BitBitio]

I watched the set, and yeah, ICs were all over Proto. I think that they might be good enough under optimal play to be high tier.

As for , I think her perception will drop as the metagame progresses because her combos are soooo tight and her damage output is sooooo low. For example, a short string from Mario going from an ftilt to jab lock to fsmash does more than a long Sheik combo starting with a RAR bair, then 2 ftilts, then a fair to an up air. Like, ouch. I can't emphasize enough how poor her damage is. Other characters will get their combo trees and setups innovated over time, and Sheik may too, but her combos are way tougher to pull off and she has only one top player, who can't even get that good of results with her. It was only 65th at Kongo Saga, guys.

 

[Minordeth]

Now that we’ve had T make a strong return to the States, it’s about time the community gets its act together and brings Sigma over here.

Beyond that, apparently KEN had experienced or was experiencing some personal trials as the tournament was underway. Watching his sets, in retrospect, gives some clarity to some very uncharacteristic play from a guy who regularly goes toe-to-toe with Zackray and other elite players.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I said it before, I'll say it again. ZeRo's needle usage in S4 set him apart from the rest by a lot.

VoiD and Mr. R didn't use needles nearly as much, and I still don't get why.

Example, vs Gackt.

That is because Sheik retains her SSB4 post-nerf Needle range, which means that Sheik players cannot camp with the move like ZeRo did back in the day.
This is also combined with the general faster speed of the roster.
Back in the SSB4 days prior to 1.1.5, certain characters was simply invalidated by not being able to catch up with a Sheik camping with Needles. really hated dealing with Sheik needles, which is reflected in ZeRo's sets against FOW back then. The range nerf from about the entirely of FD to only about half of FD, helped out the matchup quite a bit.
The set, in the end, ended in Gackt's favor, but Ness vs Pichu also sounds like a painful matchup to deal with, so VoiD was kind of trapped.

 

[ARISTOS]

I will just say that Game & Watch seems to invalidate a ton of characters. That, or everyone's playstyle vs the char is totally wrong.

I don't think invalidates anyone at all.

Rather, the character is a huge vibe check to the SH air approaches that dominate this game. G&W essentially forces games to slowdown/stalemate until an advantage can be made by either party, then the other has to take risks.

Like Snake, I think you have to play reallly slow until you can figure out the G&W's patterns and get a lead, after which his bad approach options show itself more. But I think the character is more an exercise in tedium than anything else.

That is because Sheik retains her SSB4 post-nerf Needle range, which means that Sheik players cannot camp with the move like ZeRo did back in the day.
This is also combined with the general faster speed of the roster.
Back in the SSB4 days prior to 1.1.5, certain characters was simply invalidated by not being able to catch up with a Sheik camping with Needles. really hated dealing with Sheik needles, which is reflected in ZeRo's sets against FOW back then. The range nerf from about the entirely of FD to only about half of FD, helped out the matchup quite a bit.
The set, in the end, ended in Gackt's favor, but Ness vs Pichu also sounds like a painful matchup to deal with, so VoiD was kind of trapped.

Sheik should still be able to needle characters like Ness to death, and I think that particular playstyle should get better with time as neutral improves.

 

[Rizen]

is kind of an anti-meta character. He doesn't invalidate anyone but his tools in bucket and upB (particularly OoS) force certain characters like Snake to rework their game plans. He's a strong defensive character who can destroy aggressive styles if you let him play his game. Being super light hurts however and he doesn't have a strong enough kit to really shutdown characters.

Maester's G&W invalidates characters; he's so damn good with him. I don't think any other G&W is near his level.

 

[|RK|]

That is because Sheik retains her SSB4 post-nerf Needle range, which means that Sheik players cannot camp with the move like ZeRo did back in the day.
This is also combined with the general faster speed of the roster.
Back in the SSB4 days prior to 1.1.5, certain characters was simply invalidated by not being able to catch up with a Sheik camping with Needles. really hated dealing with Sheik needles, which is reflected in ZeRo's sets against FOW back then. While the range nerf did help out quite a bit, Ness can still have some issues approaching against Needles, which is why VoiD was using it more often against Gackt in Kongo Saga.
The set, in the end, ended in Gackt's favor, but Ness vs Pichu also sounds like a painful matchup to deal with, so VoiD was kind of trapped.

Even with that worse needle range, it's a highly effective projectile that works perfectly with Sheik's gameplan. I generally didn't see VoiD use it onstage as much - and it's particularly useful in all the situations where your opponent has rage and you need to approach, thanks to the pop up.

I don't think invalidates anyone at all.

Rather, the character is a huge vibe check to the SH air approaches that dominate this game. G&W essentially forces games to slowdown/stalemate until an advantage can be made by either party, then the other has to take risks.

Like Snake, I think you have to play reallly slow until you can figure out the G&W's patterns and get a lead, after which his bad approach options show itself more. But I think the character is more an exercise in tedium than anything else.

The approach options are poor, yes, but the conversions and overall "advantage state" are obnoxious. So what happens is you're playing a tedious game where he messes up and is generally fine (especially at early percents), but if you mess up, you may eat 50/get checked by RNG and have to approach. And the main way to avoid the part where you mess up is having some tool that lets you completely outdo him in neutral whether you're approaching or not. Typically some sort of range. Otherwise, the MU is probably way too swing-y... plus, again, his greater reward.

 

[TennisBall]

Now that we’ve had T make a strong return to the States, it’s about time the community gets its act together and brings Sigma over here.

Beyond that, apparently KEN had experienced or was experiencing some personal trials as the tournament was underway. Watching his sets, in retrospect, gives some clarity to some very uncharacteristic play from a guy who regularly goes toe-to-toe with Zackray and other elite players.

T is showing this character off, I personally think Link is very strong, a high up there high tier, and in my opinion the best Link.

KEN is saying that his next big tournament will be EVO 2020, we'll have to see how he performs by than.

 

[Game7a1]

I don't think invalidates anyone at all.

Rather, the character is a huge vibe check to the SH air approaches that dominate this game. G&W essentially forces games to slowdown/stalemate until an advantage can be made by either party, then the other has to take risks.

Like Snake, I think you have to play reallly slow until you can figure out the G&W's patterns and get a lead, after which his bad approach options show itself more. But I think the character is more an exercise in tedium than anything else.

I just want to piggyback off of this (I think I am?) and say watch Shogun vs Maister. Shogun played the MU correctly (and the most optimal I have seen), and while he still lost, Maister had to make key adjustments that were necessary to win to deal with Snake's great normals (such as mixing up D-air timing, how to hit a landing Shogun, and only committing with the right spacing).

The 4 games (not counting the time Shogun went Fox) themselves were slow, usually a tug-of-war of who would make the first action. Whoever won neutral had the immense advantage, and, like you said, G&W doesn't really have stellar approach options. Shogun already had an idea of what Maister would do, and his reward was sealing stocks and playing passive and patient. He repeatedly used the same options (D-Tilt, Dash Attack, Up-Tilt, and the like), and they worked. It was only on game 5 (as game 3 was pretty close) that Maister figured out what to do, and once he had a noticeable lead, he did the same that Shogun did to him: capitalize and score huge amounts of percent.

Maister vs Tweek's Wario is also another key set to watch. Despite Maister raking up so much damage, G&W struggles to KO at a certain percent range thanks to his moves not really linking well (beyond Up-Air and D-Smash), and Tweek was able to win games at death percents. Even when Tweek was behind in percent, he still pulled ahead thanks to Wario's KO power and waiting things out. He may had to play cat and mouse or very slow against with Maister, but it still worked out. Tweek full well knew mistakes at those percents would be costly, but playing it slow meant giving him ample room to punish. G&W isn't exactly the greatest at holding a lead in these situations (same stock count, percent lead at highish percents) as his runaway options are also limited (Chef, F-air, D-air, Fire, and B-air can only do so much), so he either makes a good read (say a Tilt or Smash attack) or does chip damage for something to give.

 

[KirbySquad101]

To chime in on the GnW: I also don't really agree with the notion that invalidates anyone; in fact, I really don't think there's any "invalidating" match-ups in general. Sure, there's some.... REALLY hard match-ups (i.e. - match-up, -, or the match-up /- match-up), but I don't think there's anyone bad enough to warrant truly unwinnable match-ups. THAT said, I do find it rather interesting that is the one character that's forcing people the most to switch to their secondaries; he's forced it out of Samsora, ESAM, Light, Salem, Tweek, T, and Shogun (though, tbf, Shogun made a really bad decision when he did that). And while I don't think any of those match-up are impossible without a secondary, I can kiiiiinnddddd of see why some players like Light and Samsora make the switch. Based off of the matches I've seen, if you don't:

A. Have disjoints to keep GnW at bay with his NAir,
B. Have a really fast and strong burst option to punish his landings with, or
C. Have REALLY good air movement,

It starts becoming really easy for GnW to suffocate the opponent's space and options, and pretty much creates a game of cat and mouse where the opponent is trying to work their way towards finding an opening in a mess of disjointed hitboxes, generous frame data, and really choppy animations that can make it extremely hard to tell when GnW is actually open for an attack (all of his ground attacks and his ledge get-up options are notorious in this category). What's worse is that if you're even so much as an inch off or a frame too late, then comes the Up B spam. Fighting GnW most (most, this part is important) of the time is a game of when to look for an opening but doing so can be both hard AND frustrating if you don't have good enough options available to you. A lot of what about to say is based off of what I've seen at Kongo Saga and to a lesser extent, Summit:

and to a lesser extent, have it fairly bad in this regard: All three characters thrive off wanting to use their very strong aerial options in neutral, but the problem is that none of them have good enough air speed and/or range to safely bait GnW with said aerials, and most of the time what happens is either A: GnW shield and punishes with Up B and gets 20% damage off of it, or B: GnW NAirs them out of their jump-ins and gets around 40~50% for their opponent's troubles. Their dash attacks definitely help in punishing GnW's approach, but outside of R.O.B., the other three are lacking in range, mostly because they come to a complete halt when they use their dash attack, ESPECIALLY Pikachu.

are able to handle GnW better in comparison because they have both the range and the burst options to call out GnW's approach easier. Wolf has a nice meaty dash attack that goes far, has a really strong air speed, and a fairly disjointed Fair, which makes it harder for him to be caught by GnW's attacks in comparison to the four mentioned above. Light did make the good choice by switching off the Fox for Wolf in the match-up. Snake doesn't have it quite as privileged in comparison, and in that regard, it's why I still think the match-up is a slight win for GnW (only slight win, though). But the thing is, even without his Grenades, Snake sports a F6 DTilt that has the range of a sword attack and deals 15%, but more importantly, a NOTORIOUSLY long-distanced dash attack that (for some forsaken reason) is partially intangible, frame 5, and possibly even safe if you cross it up on a shield. Those two moves alone force GnW to be more careful about throwing out his aerials all wily nilly moreso than the likes of Peach or Fox. For reference, Shogun fought Maister for the Top 16 qualifier at Kongo Saga, and he plays the match-up BEAUTIFULLY. His movement is so evasive and patient, knows when Maister's going to attack so he can punish him with a well-timed DTilt/Dash Attack, and even if Maister won, he did NOT make the victory easy for him (well, he did when he made that "WTF" decision to go Fox game 4). On a side note, I'm convinced that Shogun is EASILY the best Snake in the world currently and if anyone's going to take up the mantle left by Ally, it'll be him:

is another character that I feel can handle GnW a little better in comparison. It's true that most of GnW's buttons will beat Wario's, which makes things tricky for Wario, but again, thanks to his phenomenal air movement, it can actually be fairly hard for GnW to land the kill move he needs against Wario, especially if he's spending most of his time hanging out in the air (keep in mind, GnW's only really practical kill options in the air are FAir and BAir, the former of which is delayed, and the latter of which is honestly kinda weak sauce for a kill move). It requires GnW to be more precise on where to land his smash attacks, where to land his BAirs, and where to land his FAirs. On top of that, Wario's got the Waft on deck, so it's not like you can snooze or play sub optimally, either; I used to think the match-up was a slight win for GnW, but I am starting to veer a bit towards it being even based off of how air campy Wario can be and how devastating his Wario Waft is. I think Tweek understood what to do and how to play the match-up after his got bodied pretty badly.

I think and to a lesser extent, and , not only have one/two of the three things above, but are arguably the best at said things out of any character; those 3 characters tend to be universally regarded as Game and Watch's worst match-ups. Ike and Shulk are pretty self explanatory: Their disjoints make it very tricky for GnW in terms of where to actually catch their aerial options, and both characters are not shy of having swingy kill options either, which makes things more so difficult for GnW. ZSS, on top of having superior air movement and ground movement, not only has moves that can challenge his disjoints, but more importantly, can escape GnW's pressure so easily, and I think you know why. Flip Jump can make it fairly easy for ZSS to start air-camping and laming out GnW, then at that point, it's GnW who's trying to get the drop on ZSS. And I think that's why I can see those three characters being the hardest for GnW: They are the three characters that force GnW to stop playing his game, and start playing theirs. There's others that can do it as well (namely and ), but I don't think anyone does it better than those three. And because of that, you can see where ESAM and Samsora are coming from in terms of their counterpicks.

As for .... Yeah, T played that match-up pretty badly. I don't want to say he gave up or anything, but he did so many things with Link that he could normally get away with against anyone else (i.e NAir spam, Boomerang in neutral), but you really can't do such things against GnW, especially if said GnW is being piloted by Maister. Switching to barely made a difference, and at that point, I think that match can sorely just be chalked up to T's inexperience. I feel like if T had enough knowledge in the match-up, I don't think he would've needed to make the switch: While Link isn't as bad for GnW as other swordies mainly due to his slower frame data, poor movement, and not quite the best coverage of a sword character, he still has massively disjointed hitboxes and hits like a freaking truck, and I think that alone should keep GnW a little more on his toes compared to what happened in that set (for the record, I think the match-up is probably even). I don't blame T at all for this though, Japan isn't exactly brimming with top level GnW mains besides Notty.

What I think the biggest reason why players are so intent on counter picking against IS because while playing the match-up is certainly doable with someone like , it's hard, it's stressful, and it's just borderline not fun to a point that you might as well switch to another character. Why play and play like you're trying to diffuse a ticking bomb when you can just pick and laugh in his face while you dance away from him for the umpteenth time? I think this is where the frustration lies in many players that have had really bad experiences against him, particularly players like MuteAce. Based off what I've seen, I can possibly see being the bottom of top tier but ONLY because he has a lot of relevant match-ups currently, particularly against and (and maybe ?). I'm still hesitant on calling him an outright top tier because I REALLY just need to see another GnW out there that is strong enough that he doesn't need to be carried by Maister alone for me to be completely swayed. Not going to lie, though, Maister is making it harder for me to keep remaining pessimistic about the character. I honestly won't be surprised if he proves me wrong yet again.


Speaking of which, can we just say kudos to Maister? He singlehandedly carried the meta of a character that nearly everyone called a gimmicky low tier, became a top 15 player with said character, etched him into the spotlight as a high-tier-at-worst, and has pretty much made him the most despised character in all of Smash Ultimate.

Also, secret hot take: handles the match-up pretty well too

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm, talking about G&W what do you think pokemon trainer's MU against him is like? The example above me stated that tweek's got nailed bad and it would seem all three pokemon hate G&W's combination of air speed, frame data, and a get-out-of-jail free upB.
However G&W also has to be wary of squirtles air speed and ivysaur's and charizard's meaty hitboxes on their anti-air attacks.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

All this talk about G&W reminds that several months ago I was lurking in that character's thread and several mains where lamenting how bad he is in this game, which didn't seem right to me. Some were even wishing he had is Melee Nair back which doesn't make sense to me, and others were lambasting the new Fair saying how inferior it was to the old one, which I can partly see how, but I don't think the new Fair is necessarily worse or better, just different.

I think this was before Maister was making waves with the character, but I never saw him as a bad fighter. So what was up with that pessimistic perception? It seemed too inaccurate.

 

[Cheryl~]

All this talk about G&W reminds that several months ago I was lurking in that character's thread and several mains where lamenting how bad he is in this game, which didn't seem right to me. Some were even wishing he had is Melee Nair back which doesn't make sense to me, and others were lambasting the new Fair saying how inferior it was to the old one, which I can partly see how, but I don't think the new Fair is necessarily worse or better, just different.

I think this was before Maister was making waves with the character, but I never saw him as a bad fighter. So what was up with that pessimistic perception? It seemed too inaccurate.

You actually got the point right there, that Game and Watch's negative perception early on was because he was just plain different. So many of his moves from Smash 4 were overhauled or changed completely (Up-Air, Up-Tilt, Down-Tilt, and F-Air to name a few) and a lot of his old players were originally very mixed or negative on these changes. They didn't initially recognize the insane juggling capabilities that the new Up-Air has and instead whined about how their old kill confirm of Down-Throw to Up-Air (the Toot-Toot) was gone, and as we all know the new F-Air isn't perfect, but it's been proven by Maister's play to have it's own set of advantages that can make it a deadly move in this game. Maister's early results before Combo Breaker weren't nearly as amazing or consistent as his results right now so there wasn't much G&W footage to look at, so a lot of players took the negative perception from other G&Ws and their own bias and called G&W bad. This caused that period of time where G&W was considered very bad, Bottom 2 even, by a large part of the community. And then as we all know Maister turns the hell up and starts destroying top players and making amazing results with the character, forcing many players off their mains and turning G&W into high-tier Satan for the Ultimate community. So yeah, G&W was considered not good at first but it was because there wasn't anyone pushing his meta and showing his crazy buffs that he got from 4 as well as Maister has been doing these past few months.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

You actually got the point right there, that Game and Watch's negative perception early on was because he was just plain different. So many of his moves from Smash 4 were overhauled or changed completely (Up-Air, Up-Tilt, Down-Tilt, and F-Air to name a few) and a lot of his old players were originally very mixed or negative on these changes. They didn't initially recognize the insane juggling capabilities that the new Up-Air has and instead whined about how their old kill confirm of Down-Throw to Up-Air (the Toot-Toot) was gone, and as we all know the new F-Air isn't perfect, but it's been proven by Maister's play to have it's own set of advantages that can make it a deadly move in this game. Maister's early results before Combo Breaker weren't nearly as amazing or consistent as his results right now so there wasn't much G&W footage to look at, so a lot of players took the negative perception from other G&Ws and their own bias and called G&W bad. This caused that period of time where G&W was considered very bad, Bottom 2 even, by a large part of the community. And then as we all know Maister turns the hell up and starts destroying top players and making amazing results with the character, forcing many players off their mains and turning G&W into high-tier Satan for the Ultimate community. So yeah, G&W was considered not good at first but it was because there wasn't anyone pushing his meta and showing his crazy buffs that he got from 4 as well as Maister has been doing these past few months.

I think this shows that we also should be a little critical not just of the characters but of our way of thinking about them. Another problem is that the sentiment starts echoing among most people so they believe it and nobody tries to improve their performance with the fighter until an outlier like Maister comes along. This is why I think that nothing good comes out of excessive whining.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think this shows that we also should be a little critical not just of the characters but of our way of thinking about them. Another problem is that the sentiment starts echoing among most people so they believe it and nobody tries to improve their performance with the fighter until an outlier like Maister comes along. This is why I think that nothing good comes out of excessive whining.

All had pretty much the same reception off of their E3 builds, being slammed (a little less for Mario but still) for losing easy-bake combo tools despite gaining a lot in other areas.

 

[SwagGuy99]

T is showing this character off, I personally think Link is very strong, a high up there high tier, and in my opinion the best Link.

I know that the conversation of who is the best Link has been discussed a lot at this point, but I find it interesting that all three of them are still being brought up as being the best one by different people.

To chime in on the GnW: I also don't really agree with the notion that invalidates anyone; in fact, I really don't think there's any "invalidating" match-ups in general. Sure, there's some.... REALLY hard match-ups (i.e. - match-up, -, or the match-up /- match-up), but I don't think there's anyone bad enough to warrant truly unwinnable match-ups.

I agree. There are very few (if any) unwinnable matchups in this game with the only ones that I'd be truly willing to consider for that being / and / (maybe not post patch?). And the fact that there are only 2 matchups I'd consider to be anywhere near truly unwinnable in this game speaks a lot for the balance of this game.

Edit: I'm going to go slightly more indepth on the / matchup as I think it's one of the most interesting matchups in the game in terms of how one-sided it is and because not everyone will understand why I think it's nearly unwinnable for .

• A lot of things about this matchup carry over from Smash 4, but it's even worse here due to being buffed and being nerfed in the transition from 4 to Ultimate.
• The game's mechanics also don't help here as has better landing options than before and his aerials are better for comboing and juggling as well while is even more defenseless in disadvantage.
• Despite 's trampoline coming out 9 frames slower (frame 1 -> frame 10) it is still able to serve a similar purpose in the matchup to what it did in Smash 4: forcing to pick an option if he wants to approach (which is had to at some point in order to win). He can either A. jump over the trampoline. B. Run across the trampoline. None of these options are good. These are both bad ideas as in the air is automatically in disadvantage so every option is bad here.
• has a lot of trouble getting through a combination of Hydrant and projectiles that can throw at him. He can't jump to avoid them and it hinders his approach even more than it already was with just up-b.
• A lot of 's moves are surprisingly disjointed for a character without a sword and his combo game is good meaning that he is able to rack up damage efficiently on even when he's not at far range.
• can't hope to do anything to 's recovery even from onstage because of how far it travels while having a lot of options to mix it up with.
• 's grab is good for intercepting trying to run at from the front.
• 's recovery pretty much unusable against a character with projectiles and strong disjoints and is the exact definition of those two things.

Summary: gets screwed by for a lot of reasons and this may be the only truly unwinnable matchup in Ultimate.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

I want to give a very general gameplan for handling mr gw because I don't believe this character should be having quite the success he has, even if it's from just one person.

Neutral. What's his objective? He doesn't want to keep you away. His projectile isn't a neutral tool. It's too easy to wait out or jump over. Bair is quite disjoint. However, its frame data is lacking. It has to be heavily spaced to be safe. That's unrewarding. It already deals low damage. Spacing bair makes it hard to even attempt to cover your response to getting hit by it or blocking it. He needs to get in on you.

How does a character normally get in? Horizontal burst mobility is one option. What does mr gw use for that? Nothing, really. Dash attack doesn't go very far. It isn't terribly large either. You'll usually get hit by the late hit. This doesn't launch you very far. You should be able to jump away if you get hit. Mr gw doesn't have an aerial that will consistently catch you jumping backwards. What else could be used as burst mobility? Pivot canceled sliding ftilt? That requires a dash, so add some extra startup. It's quite negative on block. He'd have to space it. That's unlikely since he's sliding forward with it. Some characters are fast enough for simply running to be a good burst option. Not mr gw. His ground speeds are decisively average. That also limits his dash grab. Mr gw's lack of burst mobility makes it easy for you to stay outside of his threat bubble.

How else does a character get in? They can go forward slowly. That requires a lot of shielding. A shielding is typically your chance to strike. It limits the opponent's movement. You know exactly where to aim your next attack if your opponent is shielding. But this is no ordinary shield! Mr gw's shield is special. You don't touch mr gw's shield the same way you touch other characters'. Remember his objective? He wants to get in. Touching his shield improperly means he's in. He has an up b, a real frame 3 up b that consistently begins a juggle. It's very easy to touch mr gw's shield improperly. So how do you touch it properly? If your move is an aerial, drift backwards as it hits his shield. If it's a grounded move, space it to the MAXIMUM. There exist a very small handful of moves in the game that can touch mr gw's shield without following one of these two instructions. I assure you, the move you chose is not one of them.

But wait, who said you have to touch his shield anyway? You can shoot something at mr gw instead. Now his shield is no different from anyone else's. But, you aren't quite safe yet. Choose your projectile carefully. If you throw the wrong one, he may bucket it. It's not an immediate threat. It is something that can come back to bite you in the form of death at 40% if you keep doing it, though. You'll need to test out in the training room which projectiles will get you killed at 40 and which ones will just make you eat 20%. This also doesn't mean to never use these types projectiles. Just be extra cautious. Bucket also can reflect some projectiles. Don't let this discourage you. It's a bad reflector. It has a multiplier of 1. The projectiles return to you without any extra power or speed. It doesn't start reflecting/absorbing until frame 6. Mr gw will most times have to make some read to use bucket.

So mr gw wants to get in on you. He most often achieves this goal by having you touch his shield improperly or by slowly making his way into your space. When he is in from you improperly touching his shield, he gets instantly rewarded by up b. But what does he want when he gets in the slow way? He wants a nair or grab. The nair is for when you're not on the ground. The grab is for when you are. It's important to note that the nair is a commitment. If you block it, you can punish him. It takes 17 frames for the nair's horizontal hits to come out. If the first hit of nair whiffed, you have him right in front of you in lag. Hit him. In general, when mr gw commits, he commits ALL the way. A blocked up b means he now needs to land. What are his landing options? There are 2: dair, and then everything else. Dair falls to shield. Everything else can be intercepted with an attack of your choice. You already know how to punish a whiffed grab.

Oh no! You did a bad jump! Mr gw landed nair. Why did this nair land? Either mr gw went for a read by overshooting his nair to catch you attempting to drift backwards, or you failed to drift backwards and got anti-aired the regular way. You will now eat at least 30% and be in a juggle. This is quite unfortunate for you, but it's a fact of fighting mr gw. There is little you can do to consistently escape this juggle with minimal damage. You can't attack your way through the up air. You will always fail. If you somehow are close to mr gw during the juggle, his nair will eat every attack and launch you back up. You can try a well timed airdodge. You can try character specific options. You can try drifting to the ledge. This is also an issue, however. Chef will force an option out of you after a specific amount of time in a manner similar to a thunder jolt. Getup attack will easily be outspaced by chef. Regular getup has a good chance of being eaten by chef, as does roll. Release and then double jump onto the stage definitely will be eaten. Ledge jump may not, but then you need to land again. It's a tough spot. There likely won't be a clear cut option to pick. Not only that but mr gw can edgeguard you HARD. Bair lingers and launches at a nice angle while also having quite low cooldown. Since it's a completely horizontal hitbox, he'll try to start the move at an angle above you and then descend with it onto you. Make sure you don't use your double jump here. It will be caught. Then there's the up b. When used in the air, it launches horizontally. It WILL beat every attack you throw out. Do NOT challenge it. He has to be diagonally below you to land the up b. It may be possible to get past unscathed with a well timed directional airdodge.

Oh no! You got grabbed! Why did you get grabbed? Sometimes we expect an attack and hold shield right when our opponent is ready for it. Maybe you were drifting forward. The pivot grab is quite generous, after all. Whatever the reason, you will eat heavy damage, probably at least 40. If the grab combo ended with an up air, you will be in a juggle. If it ended with an up b, you most likely will be high in the air offstage. You could possibly drift back on stage with an airdodge. The only move to watch out for is the up b. If you get past it, now you have the stage control.

Let's talk about mr gw landing the kill. There is no kill confirm to be concerned about. The grab will not yield a kill. You will not die from the up air. Bair is exceptionally weak. He needs either an edgeguard or a grounded attack. The most dangerous move is the down smash. If you receive the sweetspot on the ground, you die at 70. You won't mash out. If you receive it in the air, you'll die around 100%. If it's the sour spot, you go offstage at a disgusting angle. It's frame 12. It's quite disjoint. The hitboxes are larger than what the hammers suggest. It's possible to hit below the ledge with this move. When spaced, it may not be punishable. This is the best down smash in the game. Respect it. There will be times when you should opt to stay back instead of putting yourself in danger of this move. Then there is up smash. It's a very slow smash attack, so slow that more often than not mr gw simply won't be able to hit you with it. You'll instead block it. You can't punish this move on shield. If it hits your shield, disengage. Jump away, jump over, or roll. If he charges this move out of range to hit you, stop moving. Let it go. You won't punish it. Taunt and then continue the match. There exists fsmash, his longest ranged ground move. Treat it how you would treat a Mario fsmash. When spaced, let it go. There is dash attack. It's rather weak. He needs the strong hit to kill at all with it. Avoid this by having a hitbox in front of you as you drift away from him. Then there are ftilt and dtilt. Dtilt will never hit you in the air. It's also wildly unsafe on shield. It's hardly a concern. Ftilt can hit you in the air, but it's hardly an issue. The hitbox is exactly what the chair is. Shield will save you from both, as will jumping. In fact, this is true of all these grounded kill moves.

Where is fair in all this? Quite frankly, I don't think it belongs at all. It's super safe on shield, it kills, and.... that's it. The fact that it can be disabled by any attack makes it incredibly easy for you to deal with. Whenever mr gw is in the air facing you and isnt below you, there is no mixup. Dair will miss. Nair is too slow. There is only fair. And how do you respond to fair? Hit him. Use anything at all. If you don't want to hit him for some unfathomable reason, fine. Move out of the way. Just, whatever you do, don't give him free shield pressure. This fair is also the main reason why you can opt to disengage from mr gw in neutral so freely. He has nothing to threaten the air space in front of him. It's basically free to back up from him in neutral. Make him overcommit. Play the long game.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

All had pretty much the same reception off of their E3 builds, being slammed (a little less for Mario but still) for losing easy-bake combo tools despite gaining a lot in other areas.

During Smash 4 pre-release, one guy here who was very analytical for the most part made a thread called "I want Mario to be good" were he pretty much ranted why he thought Smash 4 Mario was going to be bad and what he needed to be better. It was kind of cringy in restrospective because of how that character turned out and because the thread also felt like ego pandering, like it screamed "I am being overly pessimistic and I desperately want to be right about this" as he was refuting everyone else without budging. I never understand why some people want to be right about the worst possible outcome.

 

[|RK|]

Disclaimer: Ben Gold is awesome and this is not just a "K. Rool" win but a "Ben Gold" win as well.

That said, can we finally start acknowledging that K. Rool is NOT the worst heavy? Data has to matter at some point. https://t.co/z7vvk8CIhB

— Vermanubis 🎹 (@Vermanubis) December 10, 2019

So, Ganon. Keeping my thoughts short and sweet, I agree with Iota's response in the comments. Ganon very much feels like the type of character where you're just playing neutral against him, more than every other superheavy.

I believe that means that his potential may moreso lie on representation from a SUPER strong player (no real gimmick to cover weaknesses), but we've seen how that plays out historically. At the top level there was originally hope with Nairo, but even before, he had 0 faith in the character, and his ability to use the char on other top players hasn't been repeated.

I think there's definitely an argument there for worst superheavy.

And yes, I see OrionStats.

 

[Lacrimosa]

And yes, I see OrionStats.

OrionStats are an invalid argument (imo) because most tournaments have been held before the Rool buffs.
Not sure if you're actually using them as an argument, but yeah.

It'd be more interesting to see how K. Rool did in comparison to Ganon (or any other Heavy) after the buffs.


Also it seems a Bowser Jr. is rocking the JP Wifi-Ladder:

Sumamate (JP wifi ladder) current standings
1 Mutama (Bowser Jr)
2 Ron (Yoshi)
3 Shuton (Richter)
4 Munekin (Terry)
4 Hero (Bowser)
6 Beji (Pac-Man)
7 YB (Samus)
8 Nao (Mario)
9 Soraneko (Robin)
10 Tachibana (PT)

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) December 10, 2019

 

[SwagGuy99]

Disclaimer: Ben Gold is awesome and this is not just a "K. Rool" win but a "Ben Gold" win as well.

That said, can we finally start acknowledging that K. Rool is NOT the worst heavy? Data has to matter at some point. https://t.co/z7vvk8CIhB

— Vermanubis 🎹 (@Vermanubis) December 10, 2019

OK. Unpopular opinion time. is not the worst super-heavy. is not the worst super-heavy. is still not the worst super-heavy.

It's . is the worst one and is bottom 3 in the game (maybe bottom 2?). He sucks so bad and I can say why he's worse than these characters that people commonly think is the worst one.

• is slower than the other 3 and has worse range and kill power (without revenge).
• Incineroar relies heavily on his close range game but his move speed prevents him from getting in.
• He gets camped out a lot because of his speed.
• Struggles to land as his best option (n-air) is still punishable.
• Recovery is mediocre but not horrible (still not a positive).
• For a character who relies on grabs, he struggles to land one a lot.
• Struggles to edgeguard safely because of his poor speed and volatile recovery.
• Struggles to do much in disadvantage.

This kind of reminds me of a slower Little Mac who isn't nearly as helpless in the air and offstage but still isn't very good.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ganondorf and Incineroar are similar in style, but have different and comparable strengths and weaknesses. Ganondorf is bit better at zone-breaking with his Wizard's Foot and faster command grab, Incineroar handles pressure better with faster frame data and useful OOS moves. Ganondorf is stronger on the offensive with consistently powerful, meaty attacks, Incineroar is more defensive and survivable with better recovery and Revenge. That move alone gives him some defence in disadvantage, and often means you cannot merely camp him to win. Sooner or later one will have to brave him up close to put him in a position where he can't just absorb or dodge your shots, to say nothing of the mental impact.

 

[Gérard Majax]

OK. Unpopular opinion time. is not the worst super-heavy. is not the worst super-heavy. is still not the worst super-heavy.

It's . is the worst one and is bottom 3 in the game (maybe bottom 2?). He sucks so bad and I can say why he's worse than these characters that people commonly think is the worst one.

• is slower than the other 3 and has worse range and kill power (without revenge).
• Incineroar relies heavily on his close range game but his move speed prevents him from getting in.
• He gets camped out a lot because of his speed.
• Struggles to land as his best option (n-air) is still punishable.
• Recovery is mediocre but not horrible (still not a positive).
• For a character who relies on grabs, he struggles to land one a lot.
• Struggles to edgeguard safely because of his poor speed and volatile recovery.
• Struggles to do much in disadvantage.

This kind of reminds me of a slower Little Mac who isn't nearly as helpless in the air and offstage but still isn't very good.

Yeah I'm not really buying that tbh. A lot of the points you made (speed, camped, recovery, and I think you listed speed 3 times) apply to ganon as well, and even then I feel like he has an edge over him in some of these?

- Recovery is miles better, no rockrocking, no free fall after side b, armored up b, up b covers more height, way better at recovering high because better at landing + possible up b mixups. It's not an *amazing* recovery but it's decent (and in comparison ganon just dies to everyone offstage it's not even funny).
- A good jump and scary aerials (and better buttons!) make him better at applying pressure once he cornered the opponents.
- Revenge is a frame 3 counter which makes camping and overextending combos somehow dangerous (or at least not trivial).
Also incineroar offstage game is actually decent, he has enough recovery to commit a bit and drop down nair/fair/dariat, which can beat some recoveries + he has dtilt 2 frames (which confirm into ftilt and kills quite early lol). Dtilt in general is a really dumb move.

Ganon has the edge in burst range, overall range (usmash on platforms is noice I'll admit), and potential to kill when you have the sauce over your opponent because doriyah/side b shenanigans, but his disadvantage is just so bad (worst in the game? him or mac imo). Incineroar isn't exactly a great character (can be hard to get in against disjoints playing lame lol), but I feel like he is a way more complete character (thx revenge, best counter design in the game tbh). with more tools than ganon "I get reads or I die horribly" will ever have.

 

[Rizen]

Yeah I'm not really buying that tbh. A lot of the points you made (speed, camped, recovery, and I think you listed speed 3 times) apply to ganon as well, and even then I feel like he has an edge over him in some of these?

- Recovery is miles better, no rockrocking, no free fall after side b, armored up b, up b covers more height, way better at recovering high because better at landing + possible up b mixups. It's not an *amazing* recovery but it's decent (and in comparison ganon just dies to everyone offstage it's not even funny).
- A good jump and scary aerials (and better buttons!) make him better at applying pressure once he cornered the opponents.
- Revenge is a frame 3 counter which makes camping and overextending combos somehow dangerous (or at least not trivial).
Also incineroar offstage game is actually decent, he has enough recovery to commit a bit and drop down nair/fair/dariat, which can beat some recoveries + he has dtilt 2 frames (which confirm into ftilt and kills quite early lol). Dtilt in general is a really dumb move.

Ganon has the edge in burst range, overall range (usmash on platforms is noice I'll admit), and potential to kill when you have the sauce over your opponent because doriyah/side b shenanigans, but his disadvantage is just so bad (worst in the game? him or mac imo). Incineroar isn't exactly a great character (can be hard to get in against disjoints playing lame lol), but I feel like he is a way more complete character (thx revenge, best counter design in the game tbh). with more tools than ganon "I get reads or I die horribly" will ever have.

Revenge and his command grab tie the character together. Without these key tools he'd be trash. I agree with most of this^ except Ganon is terrifying offstage. One thing he does much better than Roar is control space with large hitboxes. He can plow through recoveries and his aerials hit like smash attacks.

 

[TennisBall]

I know that the conversation of who is the best Link has been discussed a lot at this point, but I find it interesting that all three of them are still being brought up as being the best one by different people.

Here's my hot take on the matter

Super duper hot take: is bottom high. While I think that is the worst Link I still think very very highly of him. Toon Link seemed to have syndrome in that opinions are rapidly less positive because of an extreme lack of results, and this is what it was at first. While Toon Link has a very good campy game, and can overwhelm the opponent, was just better at it, with Flame Arrow, being overall faster, and able to keep up with fast, rushdown characters more solidly, and thus Toon Link went into a quick and rapid decline for a while. Until in Japan, when the character had a massive spike in usage. Japan has a much more friendly environment for more campy characters examples including Raito(), Tea(), and Brood() being just a few examples. While Toon Link may not have giant arrow strings, Up-Tilt does quite a bit of damage but more importantly, Toon Link seems to have a lot easier of a time killing. While Young Link may have a lot of confirms, landing them is tricky and Toon Link has more otions that can just kill the the opponent as well as some kill confirms with Up-B, F-Air, Back Throw, etc. Toon Link also has his weird new F-Smash which I personally think is a great sidegrade to his old F-Smash, being able to effectively cover several ledge options with much less commitment.

was at the beginning of the game considered extremely good and by far the best Link at now....kinda?
Young Link has an extremely good camping game, he is extremely fast while still having a useable disjoint and can also get in and do a lot of burst damage, he can effectively play a camping and boxing game and is able to switch between the two very quickly and effectively. So he's easy top high right? Well....he has a big problem killing, and other bigger disjoints stuff him out, along with his less than stellar disadvantage and his landing options being limited to fast fall N-Air and Down Air, which are good but not great in terms of when it's fairly easy to react to, and they aren't too hard to punish. T had some good results but seems to have switch mainly to Adult Link. I'd place him the lower half of High.

seems to be doing incredibly well as of late. He's slower than the other two and has a more difficult time camping, and has a worse disadvantage, but man does he have some trade offs for it. He's much stronger and hits like a truck, thanks to Bomb his recovery is actually better even without the Tether, not having a Tether is great for some follow-ups off of Grab, and we've made it clear that any hit counts. Nair is great, and while Young Link's Nair is great too, Link's bigger hitbox and overall size and the power of it make it even better on him. And of course the Bomb infinite, along with Link's bomb just being better overall. I'd place Link at the upper half high tier.

 

[KakuCP9]

I don't think struggles with disjoints due to sheer fact that his buttons are of equivalent range (ie dtilt, fair, etc) allowing him to compete with sword-characters in footsies. He struggles with characters that operate at range where someone is too close to simply Revenge recklessly and too far for his buttons to reach since he doesn't have good zone breaking tools. Swordies don't do the latter, but characters like Wolf and Greninja do both since they don't bluntly camp people, they just operate slllightly out of the opponent's range, pelting them with projectiles and then come busting through with silly burst options when they sense overextending.

 

[Thinkaman]

I said it before, I'll say it again. ZeRo's needle usage in S4 set him apart from the rest by a lot.

I always felt like the common element of ZeRo's play across games/characters was peerlessly tight exploitation of overtuned options. He took Diddy d-throw/d-tilt + Sheik Needles/fair to limits no one else was able to achieve--most people who used such tools so much did so as more of a crutch.

• Despite 's trampoline coming out 9 frames slower (frame 1 -> frame 10) it is still able to serve a similar purpose in the matchup to what it did in Smash 4: forcing to pick an option if he wants to approach (which is had to at some point in order to win). He can either A. jump over the trampoline. B. Run across the trampoline. None of these options are good. These are both bad ideas as in the air is automatically in disadvantage so every option is bad here.

Can't Mac just attack the trampoline in Ultimate? It seems like that one aspect of the matchup would be vastly improved for him.

OK. Unpopular opinion time. is not the worst super-heavy. is not the worst super-heavy. is still not the worst super-heavy.

It's . is the worst one and is bottom 3 in the game (maybe bottom 2?). He sucks so bad and I can say why he's worse than these characters that people commonly think is the worst one.

• is slower than the other 3 and has worse range and kill power (without revenge).
• Incineroar relies heavily on his close range game but his move speed prevents him from getting in.
• He gets camped out a lot because of his speed.
• Struggles to land as his best option (n-air) is still punishable.
• Recovery is mediocre but not horrible (still not a positive).
• For a character who relies on grabs, he struggles to land one a lot.
• Struggles to edgeguard safely because of his poor speed and volatile recovery.
• Struggles to do much in disadvantage.

I'm gonna disagree pretty hard on this.

I would argue that Incineroar is the worst character in the game without Revenge, pointing to all of the above points as supporting evidence. He's basically Brawl/Smash 4 Ganon with a functional recovery, much-needed get-off-me button, and some better combos. Which is all great, but in the context of Ultimate's roster would still put him in last place.

But then Revenge shows up. Revenge is not just one of the best moves in the game full-stop (it would be broken on anyone else), but it specifically addresses Incineroar's primary problems, all the things that marginalized Ganon for the previous decade:

• Projectile zoning? Revenge.
• Safe aerial spam? Revenge.
• Brain-dead edgeguarding abuse? Revenge.
• Easy to juggle with non-true pseudo-combos? Revenge.

And once you have Revenge, some of Ganon Incineroar's other neutral problems are vastly improved:

• Your attacks are unsafe on shield? Not anymore!
• Opponents are happy to just use their superior speed/range aerials instead of risking grabs? Tough, now they need a grab.

I think Incineroar is one of the most underplayed characters, similar to other characters like Duck Hunt that require heavy optimization of a given move. There's little point to playing Incineroar unless you are good with Revenge, and that means good at both getting and exploiting it. (There's no reward for being good at one and not the other!) This emphasis on both types of strong reads is an extreme "taste", which inevitably results in an underplayed and underdeveloped character.

Take a look at Magister. When you watch his sets, I would describe Magister as a gloabl-top-200 level player. He's super impressive and clever, but isn't showing the superhuman reactions, reads, and execution we expect from top 50 or higher tiers of players. Like most players of his level, it's easy to point out mistakes and errors on the VODs; unfortunate whiffs, unforced recovery errors, parry mistakes, the occasional missed tech, ect. He's really good, but I think it would be unfair to describe him as a top 50 player artifically held back by a bad character. (If such a top 50 player played Incineroar, or Magister advanced to that elite level of general gameplay consistency, it's easy to see room for higher Incineroar performance.)

A large part of this is Revenge optimization. Even Magister, naturally one of the best users of Revenge, is too conservative with it. He's been using it more over time, but go watch his recent Youmacon VODs (like against Ksev) and make a note of the missed opportunities.



All of this contrasts with say, Ben Gold's performance this past weekend. I watch those vids and don't see nearly as many obvious opportunities for improvement. So much of what he does is (harshly) punishing outright mistakes, rather than the sort of hard-but-honest reads Incineroar is based on. I felt like the set vs. Samsora most clearly showcased this nature of K. Rool.


Here is Magister's matchup chart. It's quite old, but this means it also does not account for the major Incineroar buffs.

Just by matchup spread, Magister seemed to believe his character was mid-tier when making this chart. While this is hardly proof of that, it at least speaks that he does not view himself as a martyr held back by a bad character.

Incidentally, if I might add my personal 2 cents, I think compared to Magister's old chart:

• Snake is better (for Incineroar than listed).
• Corrin is better.
• Simon is better.
• Olimar is better.
• Bowser is worse.
• DK is worse.
• Shulk is worse.
• Wario is worse.
• Kirby is probably worse now.
• Pikachu is worse, probably worst matchup?

He struggles with characters that operate at range where someone is too close to simply Revenge recklessly and too far for his buttons to reach since he doesn't have good zone breaking tools.

This is correct. Incineroar has to avoid the spatial window where successful Revenge gets grabbed.

This is why the patch was so big, because both the +range and -FAF dramatically shrunk that specific window.

Fun note: If the opponent is one frame too late from a grab punish on Revenge, you have lots of fun options. Not only can you spot-dodge into lots of things that do tons of damage and are safe-on-block, but due to its animation it is just as effective frame-wise vs. grabs to directly d-smash.

 

[Nobie]

Observing Maister's G&W this weekend, the one thing I noticed most is just how hard it is to approach G&W from the air. That Up B beats out so much and is so quick that it neutralized a lot of Mega Man's approaches from above. Even tomahawking seemed often impractical because G&W could just hedge his bets and trampoline out.

Updated G&W MU Chart, after a BUNCH of traveling I think my opinions and thoughts on MUs are clearer now (: G&W is probably around top 15 if played right. Won't be answering questions since it's always a mess lol have fun in the comments. pic.twitter.com/HXwuIJJZzM

— LG | Maister (@Maister_SSB) November 12, 2019

His most recent matchup chart is interesting. Putting aside its bullishness (only a few slightly losing matchups), it's interesting to see who Maister considers a decent challenge to G&W: mostly swordsmen/high disjoint characters and extremely slippery opponents like Sonic and Yoshi. Palutena is a notable threat because she combines disjoints, excellent air mobility, and an invincible back air that won't lose to Trampoline. Overall, though, the recurring theme seems to be anyone with decent air mobility who can keep G&W from setting up shop. I mean, it's pretty wild that the main of an off-stage specialist like G&W would consider Simon/Richter an even matchup, as it implies that getting them off stage in the first place is a far greater challenge for G&W compared to most other top characters.

 

[KirbySquad101]

For anyone who wants to see some really good gameplay of , I'd definitely recommend watching Skyjay; while he could use Revenge a little more, he's very solid on knowing when to go on the aggressive with his quick and disjointed aerials, how to plow through projectiles, and knowing how to stop players from overcommitting their aggression with a well-timed Darkest Lariat or Revenge. Here's a vod of his most recent endeavor at a local called Smash at the Rocks: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/515857373 He has some tight games against Chag and Maister that I'd recommend watching to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

Skyjay vs. Chag 1: 3:24:11
Skyjay vs. Maister 1: 4:26:03
Skyjay vs. Chag 2: 4:51:41
Skyjay vs. Maister 2: 5:11:29

I want to give a very general gameplan for handling mr gw because I don't believe this character should be having quite the success he has, even if it's from just one person.

Neutral. What's his objective? He doesn't want to keep you away. His projectile isn't a neutral tool. It's too easy to wait out or jump over. Bair is quite disjoint. However, its frame data is lacking. It has to be heavily spaced to be safe. That's unrewarding. It already deals low damage. Spacing bair makes it hard to even attempt to cover your response to getting hit by it or blocking it. He needs to get in on you.

How does a character normally get in? Horizontal burst mobility is one option. What does mr gw use for that? Nothing, really. Dash attack doesn't go very far. It isn't terribly large either. You'll usually get hit by the late hit. This doesn't launch you very far. You should be able to jump away if you get hit. Mr gw doesn't have an aerial that will consistently catch you jumping backwards. What else could be used as burst mobility? Pivot canceled sliding ftilt? That requires a dash, so add some extra startup. It's quite negative on block. He'd have to space it. That's unlikely since he's sliding forward with it. Some characters are fast enough for simply running to be a good burst option. Not mr gw. His ground speeds are decisively average. That also limits his dash grab. Mr gw's lack of burst mobility makes it easy for you to stay outside of his threat bubble.

How else does a character get in? They can go forward slowly. That requires a lot of shielding. A shielding is typically your chance to strike. It limits the opponent's movement. You know exactly where to aim your next attack if your opponent is shielding. But this is no ordinary shield! Mr gw's shield is special. You don't touch mr gw's shield the same way you touch other characters'. Remember his objective? He wants to get in. Touching his shield improperly means he's in. He has an up b, a real frame 3 up b that consistently begins a juggle. It's very easy to touch mr gw's shield improperly. So how do you touch it properly? If your move is an aerial, drift backwards as it hits his shield. If it's a grounded move, space it to the MAXIMUM. There exist a very small handful of moves in the game that can touch mr gw's shield without following one of these two instructions. I assure you, the move you chose is not one of them.

But wait, who said you have to touch his shield anyway? You can shoot something at mr gw instead. Now his shield is no different from anyone else's. But, you aren't quite safe yet. Choose your projectile carefully. If you throw the wrong one, he may bucket it. It's not an immediate threat. It is something that can come back to bite you in the form of death at 40% if you keep doing it, though. You'll need to test out in the training room which projectiles will get you killed at 40 and which ones will just make you eat 20%. This also doesn't mean to never use these types projectiles. Just be extra cautious. Bucket also can reflect some projectiles. Don't let this discourage you. It's a bad reflector. It has a multiplier of 1. The projectiles return to you without any extra power or speed. It doesn't start reflecting/absorbing until frame 6. Mr gw will most times have to make some read to use bucket.

So mr gw wants to get in on you. He most often achieves this goal by having you touch his shield improperly or by slowly making his way into your space. When he is in from you improperly touching his shield, he gets instantly rewarded by up b. But what does he want when he gets in the slow way? He wants a nair or grab. The nair is for when you're not on the ground. The grab is for when you are. It's important to note that the nair is a commitment. If you block it, you can punish him. It takes 17 frames for the nair's horizontal hits to come out. If the first hit of nair whiffed, you have him right in front of you in lag. Hit him. In general, when mr gw commits, he commits ALL the way. A blocked up b means he now needs to land. What are his landing options? There are 2: dair, and then everything else. Dair falls to shield. Everything else can be intercepted with an attack of your choice. You already know how to punish a whiffed grab.

Oh no! You did a bad jump! Mr gw landed nair. Why did this nair land? Either mr gw went for a read by overshooting his nair to catch you attempting to drift backwards, or you failed to drift backwards and got anti-aired the regular way. You will now eat at least 30% and be in a juggle. This is quite unfortunate for you, but it's a fact of fighting mr gw. There is little you can do to consistently escape this juggle with minimal damage. You can't attack your way through the up air. You will always fail. If you somehow are close to mr gw during the juggle, his nair will eat every attack and launch you back up. You can try a well timed airdodge. You can try character specific options. You can try drifting to the ledge. This is also an issue, however. Chef will force an option out of you after a specific amount of time in a manner similar to a thunder jolt. Getup attack will easily be outspaced by chef. Regular getup has a good chance of being eaten by chef, as does roll. Release and then double jump onto the stage definitely will be eaten. Ledge jump may not, but then you need to land again. It's a tough spot. There likely won't be a clear cut option to pick. Not only that but mr gw can edgeguard you HARD. Bair lingers and launches at a nice angle while also having quite low cooldown. Since it's a completely horizontal hitbox, he'll try to start the move at an angle above you and then descend with it onto you. Make sure you don't use your double jump here. It will be caught. Then there's the up b. When used in the air, it launches horizontally. It WILL beat every attack you throw out. Do NOT challenge it. He has to be diagonally below you to land the up b. It may be possible to get past unscathed with a well timed directional airdodge.

Oh no! You got grabbed! Why did you get grabbed? Sometimes we expect an attack and hold shield right when our opponent is ready for it. Maybe you were drifting forward. The pivot grab is quite generous, after all. Whatever the reason, you will eat heavy damage, probably at least 40. If the grab combo ended with an up air, you will be in a juggle. If it ended with an up b, you most likely will be high in the air offstage. You could possibly drift back on stage with an airdodge. The only move to watch out for is the up b. If you get past it, now you have the stage control.

Let's talk about mr gw landing the kill. There is no kill confirm to be concerned about. The grab will not yield a kill. You will not die from the up air. Bair is exceptionally weak. He needs either an edgeguard or a grounded attack. The most dangerous move is the down smash. If you receive the sweetspot on the ground, you die at 70. You won't mash out. If you receive it in the air, you'll die around 100%. If it's the sour spot, you go offstage at a disgusting angle. It's frame 12. It's quite disjoint. The hitboxes are larger than what the hammers suggest. It's possible to hit below the ledge with this move. When spaced, it may not be punishable. This is the best down smash in the game. Respect it. There will be times when you should opt to stay back instead of putting yourself in danger of this move. Then there is up smash. It's a very slow smash attack, so slow that more often than not mr gw simply won't be able to hit you with it. You'll instead block it. You can't punish this move on shield. If it hits your shield, disengage. Jump away, jump over, or roll. If he charges this move out of range to hit you, stop moving. Let it go. You won't punish it. Taunt and then continue the match. There exists fsmash, his longest ranged ground move. Treat it how you would treat a Mario fsmash. When spaced, let it go. There is dash attack. It's rather weak. He needs the strong hit to kill at all with it. Avoid this by having a hitbox in front of you as you drift away from him. Then there are ftilt and dtilt. Dtilt will never hit you in the air. It's also wildly unsafe on shield. It's hardly a concern. Ftilt can hit you in the air, but it's hardly an issue. The hitbox is exactly what the chair is. Shield will save you from both, as will jumping. In fact, this is true of all these grounded kill moves.

Where is fair in all this? Quite frankly, I don't think it belongs at all. It's super safe on shield, it kills, and.... that's it. The fact that it can be disabled by any attack makes it incredibly easy for you to deal with. Whenever mr gw is in the air facing you and isnt below you, there is no mixup. Dair will miss. Nair is too slow. There is only fair. And how do you respond to fair? Hit him. Use anything at all. If you don't want to hit him for some unfathomable reason, fine. Move out of the way. Just, whatever you do, don't give him free shield pressure. This fair is also the main reason why you can opt to disengage from mr gw in neutral so freely. He has nothing to threaten the air space in front of him. It's basically free to back up from him in neutral. Make him overcommit. Play the long game.

I feel like the problem isn't necessarily that people don't know the counterplay (barring a few exceptions like T or Cosmos), it's that even with the counterplay in mind, there's still two things to be aware of:

1. How well you can implement your counterplay against largely varies across the roster and their own loveseats. Making him overcommit may not be too much of an issue for a character like or , but what about someone like who doesn't have access to Guns or ZAirs? This is pretty much the TL:DR version of my previous post.

2. The more important point of the two in my opinion, but Maister gave a really good point in an interview after his success at Nightmare on Smashville: "If you guys learn the match-up over here... I'm still gonna know how to deal with it, I've got to adapt to it."

And oh boy, Maister wasn't kidding when he said that; he's had his fair share of shaking things up against people who know the match-up, but two biggest instances I can think of that apply to this are against Shogun at Kongo Saga and MKLeo's Marth at Summit:

- MKLeo got him to overcommit quite often and knew exactly how to punish Maister's forced jump-ins: With a well time tippered FTilt; it worked very well the first two games against Maister; Maister caught on fairly quick afterwards, and when he did, he took almost took out his jump-ins completely out of his gameplan; instead he caught on to MKLeo's punishes and reacted accordingly with well-timed burst dash attacks and dash grabs. And while he didn't end up winning the set, he had very close wins against MKLeo games 3 and 4 and even forced the Joker switch out of him.

- Shogun's set is a more poignant example: like Game7a1 mentioned, he knew exactly how to handle the match-up, wait for Maister to get too forceful with his NAir approaches, and punish accordingly with a well-time DTilt and/or Dash Attack that allowed to give him so much control of neutral. This snowballed for quite a bit up until game 3, and at that point, Maister needed to figure out how to deal with it. And well, he did: He noticed Shogun needed to space himself first before being able to land his down tilts like he wanted to, and when he did, he just kept dash attacking him to put him into a bad situation. And when Shogun had to bounce back from a dash attack, or get baited into using a DTilt too early, Maister would get such a massive reward off of it, allowing him to get the reversal on him.
Pretty much the point I'm getting at is that the counterplay when going into a match starts to become less and less effective against - or anyone for that matter - when you have to consider what the opposing side is doing about said counterplay. Baiting an NAir, FAir, or Dash Attack in neutral CAN work, and it probably will for the first 1-2 games or if the opponent doesn't do anything about it. I've noticed Maister plays at his worst when he start becoming really predictable as to what he'll throw out (i.e. constant rushing, constant DAir spam from above, the latter usually costs him the most). But in most instances, it will only work for a while before said Game and Watch starts mixing up when to burst with dash attack, where to land with NAir, when he actually wants to start throwing bombs out of a full hop instead of DAir-ing, FF NAiring, DAiring, or even just doing nothing. Now, we haven't seen some of these options used before, but I feel like once the opponent catches onto the precautions the player took against them, then it starts becoming a game of who can outplay each other with the tools they have.

Now, this isn't to say that counterplay is ALWAYS useless against Game and Watch: There's always the basic stuff players shouldn't be doing against him, like don't jump too much against him, don't try to attack him after shielding his USmash, always DI upward to break out of his NAIr combos, etc. And when opponents do the exact opposite of the stuff above, you have swift 3-0/3 stock situations like what happens to Gluttony at Smash Factor 8 which makes Game and Watch look like a Top 3 character. In that regard, I agree that Game and Watch shouldn't be steamrolling players so easily. But outside of that, I honestly can't really see Maister or GnW falling out of favor anytime soon, both because of the way Maister has been playing lately, and how varied characters' options can be against GnW. I could be overly optimistic, but those are my thoughts overall on the subject; also, I've been talking about GnW a lot lol.

seems to be doing incredibly well as of late. He's slower than the other two and has a more difficult time camping, and has a worse disadvantage, but man does he have some trade offs for it. He's much stronger and hits like a truck, thanks to Bomb his recovery is actually better even without the Tether, not having a Tether is great for some follow-ups off of Grab, and we've made it clear that any hit counts. Nair is great, and while Young Link's Nair is great too, Link's bigger hitbox and overall size and the power of it make it even better on him. And of course the Bomb infinite, along with Link's bomb just being better overall. I'd place Link at the upper half high tier.

It's interesting to see where Link's meta is heading, at least T's recent take with the character. He's been a phenomenal player this past couple of weeks, placing top 8 at both Umebura SP7 and Kongo Saga back-to-back, but despite people saying he has the most room to grow, T's sort of taking a backseat to that: Outside of a few instances, he's completely taken Remote Bomb out of his gameplan altogether, and really only goes for it as a recovery option, instead for opting the more traditional/simplistic approach most Link players use. With the way T plays him, he sort of plays like a swordie, but unlike swordies like or who use their pseudo-disjoints to set up a wall, the defense T sets up depends much more on Link's long-lasting hitboxes like NAir and Boomerang, and a very hard to touch shield that can cost you your stock given how insanely powerful Spin Attack is for an OoS option.

Given T's success with the character, this may be the direction Link'll continue to head towards in the future. That said, I am glad T was able to travel overseas to show off what the character is capable of outside of Japan. Also, congratulations to him for getting the best placement out of Link to date, even outplacing Salem's best feats with the character.

 

[Thinkaman]

Here's a vod of his most recent endeavor at a local called Smash at the Rocks: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/515857373 He has some really good games against Chag and Maister that I'd recommend watching to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

Skyjay vs. Chag 1: 3:24:11
Skyjay vs. Maister 1: 4:26:03
Skyjay vs. Chag 2: 4:51:41
Skyjay vs. Maister 2: 5:11:29.

There's some prime examples here.

At 3:28:10, Inkling does a conservative bomb setup that would be a safe/great choice against 90% of the cast--but he's too close and Incineroar can Revenge it. He continues to get abused by Inkling in the air a bit, but it doesn't matter--on the ground Inkling immediately commits to the greedy dashgrab, and takes 53% for it.

At 3:29:45, history repeats itself. Look how afraid Inkling is (rightfully so) when he has Revenge up!

And at 3:30, he does an aerial Revenge where Inkling is totally able to do an aerial punish, but nothing else. Is it worth it? He takes a meaty 19% damage, on top of the 6% he still takes from the bomb itself. He later lands a Lariat dealing 30% total. That's only about 10% more than a fresh Lariat would do to begin with, so it wasn't worth it, right?

WRONG, this is the point of Revenge. Without Revenge, that Lariat would have been just another risky guess. If the guess was wrong and Inkling blocked, he'd have been punished next to the ledge and possibly lost the game. But a sufficiently Revenged Lariat is not just safe on block, it's a gauranteed lock/poke. He "paid" 25% not to maybe deal an extra 10%, but to give himself a 30% option that couldn't lose.

Against Maister, several of these fairs and uairs are Revengeable on reaction--fair can be spaced to a punish window in select cases, but Maister is leaning into them hard. There's also several post-up-b safe aerials (that G&W loves to do) that would have been easy Revenge reads.

At 4:58:40, there's a good example of a landing application. It's just like Little Mac down-b--it turns what would be a 100% screwed situation into a 50:50. (Except Incineroar gets a reward, while Mac merely gets to live.)

There's some missed opportunities for Revenge in his later games against Chag--Chag starts getting comfortable with his (effective) ledge guarding, which Revenge could get through or at least force a habit change. Skylar also gets an easy anti-juggle Revenge, but instead of going aggressive with it sits in shield on a platform and gets grabbed. (Honestly, both players were playing noticably worse by the end of their second set.)

Against Maister again, there are so many fairs that should have been gauranteed Revenges. (Again, Maister loves safe-on-block fair-to-fair/nair, and rarely does retreating fairs that expose him to rushdown.) When Skylar finally does (correctly) grab a Revenge off Chef, he misplays it and goes for a fair; a Revenge that small is still a ~1.3x boost, but that's not enough to make aerials safe on block. 5:16:40 has a cute Revenge off of trampoline. He loses game 3 to another fair he should have Revenged. At 5:28:00, he finally Revenges safe fair, and immediately converts it to a 39% Lariat--he could have been doing that the whole set!

Fantastic play though, almost taking down someone certain to be a single-digit PGR player.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Don't want to cut all the interesting discussions right now, but this is a friendly reminder to make sure to tune in into the Game Awards tomorrow.

Considering that it has been a month since Terry's release, and Joker was revealed there last year, there is a pretty good chance that the next DLC character will be unveiled there.

 

[|RK|]

lots of stuff I agree with

One other thing I still never ever see is parry into counter. On a lot of chars (like Joker can do it with Tetrakarn), but ESPECIALLY with Incineroar, since it's maybe the safest way to confirm a Revenge without putting yourself at heavy risk.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Can't Mac just attack the trampoline in Ultimate? It seems like that one aspect of the matchup would be vastly improved for him.

He can't. I was thinking of the E3 Demo for whatever reason. I fixed it at some point last night after I realized lol.