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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    584

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
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Jul 14, 2014
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1,339
If you separate the "Broken" category in Tweek's listing and take the conventions for what they are, I think there's a solid case to be made that every character listed in Top/High tier can succeed at being solo viable even with a few struggling MUs, so then if you view the mid-tier as a point where you're going to start needing a secondary to cover ubiquitous match ups, then Bowser's placement makes some sense, and is at least my generous guess as to why Tweek approximated Bowser as being on the borderline. He's stupid strong but a lot of LeoN's most impressive set wins or "almost" set wins with the character earlier in the year have started to renege into becoming stomps, most notably from Samsora's rematches. His recent set against Rivers was crushing, and at MSM#212, Cosmos actually forced LeoN to counterpick Mario going into Game 3. With characters like Peach and Chrom populating the upper echelon, he may have one too many hard counters working against him. That being said, being placed below Young Link, Sheik and even Diddy is eyebrow raising.

The more interesting placements are Olimar and ZSS. I'm interested why he thinks they're below the 5 characters above them, though I applaud the recognition for Mario actually being pretty saucy.
 
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NuzTheMonkey

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Messages
147
Seeing :ultmario: that high is a first-time thing (for me), but it's actually not too far off from his OrionStats ranking (#9, I believe?). I'm not sure if I can buy him being that high given that there hasn't been a single Mario that's been consistently phenomenal this season, but I don't think him being a top tier or even top 10 is outside the realm of reality if we're considering just how valuable his strengths are.
Wouldn’t Dark Wizzy fit that criteria?
 

KirbySquad101

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Wouldn’t Dark Wizzy fit that criteria?
DW definitely fits the bill the best, but even he's had a few hiccups, namely his performances at Port Priority 5 and EVO (I guess also Big House, but that one doesn't really count).

He's been on a very nice streak as of late, though, placing 5th at Thunder Smash 3 and being the the first Mario to ever win a PGR event (Mexico Gaming Championship). I think he'll perform even better once he gets better at last-stock-game-5-situations (or doesn't run into Salem again).
 

Ziodyne 21

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Tweek put Wario fairly low on his tier list since he is still standing on saying he is very overatted and clinging to the argument on how you can camp him out and loses to swords and whatever.
Yeah no. Tweek has proven himself Wario has no issue with Swords or most characters with better range partly due to how mobile he is. Plus stalling and camping Wario will actullay benefit him. It should be obvious, but playing campy and stalling gives him all the more time to charge Waft. .
The history of Gluttony and Raito's sets proved that you can control the neutral and make galaxy brain plays to keep him out. But make one error and give him an opening and you are dead at like 50 from a waft confrim, and then you are suddenly behind.

To me Wario's only "losing" MU's seem to be Palutena and ZSS. They both have correct combination of mobility, range and other tools to consistently box him out and make him stuggle in neutral and disadvantage.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
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Tweek put Wario fairly low on his tier list since he is still standing on saying he is very overatted and clinging to the argument on how you can camp him out and loses to swords and whatever.
Yeah no. Tweek has proven himself Wario has no issue with Swords or most characters with better range partly due to how mobile he is. Plus stalling and camping Wario will actullay benefit him. It should be obvious, but playing campy and stalling gives him all the more time to charge Waft. .
The history of Gluttony and Raito's sets proved that you can control the neutral and make galaxy brain plays to keep him out. But make one error and give him an opening and you are dead at like 50 from a waft confrim, and then you are suddenly behind.

To me Wario's only "losing" MU's seem to be Palutena and ZSS. They both have correct combination of mobility, range and other tools to consistently box him out and make him stuggle in neutral and disadvantage.
Speaking from a zoner's perspective, :ultwario:'s one of the harder characters to zone. Like you said he gets waft but he's also great at zone breaking because he's small, has great air speed and good fall speed. He can weave through projectiles well.
 

Molk

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 28, 2014
Messages
45
One more note about Yoshi's Island before it starts

Zenkai :ultmewtwo: and Freelancer Leo :ultmewtwo: are both going to be attending.

I noticed you guys were talking about Mewtwo's place in the meta before and this is probably going to be your best chance to see how he performs at a high level of play. Zenkai in particular has some great wins such as Mr.E, so it should be an interesting watch.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Jan 10, 2018
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In the event, we got a notable upset:

Mj:ultrob: 2-1 Suarez:ultyoshi:

Top 32 is also going to begin soon, and aside from Suarez in loser's, all the notable players that are expected to be in winner's are in winner's.
 
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Lacrimosa

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One more note about Yoshi's Island before it starts

Zenkai :ultmewtwo: and Freelancer Leo :ultmewtwo: are both going to be attending.

I noticed you guys were talking about Mewtwo's place in the meta before and this is probably going to be your best chance to see how he performs at a high level of play. Zenkai in particular has some great wins such as Mr.E, so it should be an interesting watch.
In these cases, I wonder how much it is about the character.
Zenkai plays Mr. E a lot at their NY locals, so isn't it a player match-up by that point?
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Jan 10, 2018
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Mj:ultrob: 2-1 Sinji:ultpacman: to eliminate him at 9th place.


Here is top 8 for the event:

Winner's
Tweek:ultjoker: vs Stocktaker69:ultwolf::ultvillager:
Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina: vs Venia:ultgreninja:

Loser's
Juuuuul:ultrobin: vs Mr E:ultlucina:
Mj:ultrob: vs Kofi:ultfalco:
 
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Cheryl~

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Mj:ultrob: 2-1 Sinji:ultpacman: to eliminate him at 9th place.


Here is top 8 for the event:

Winner's
Tweek:ultwario::ultpokemontrainerf: vs Stocktaker69:ultwolf::ultvillager:
Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina: vs Venia:ultgreninja:

Loser's
Juuuuul:ultrobin: vs Mr E:ultlucina:
Mj:ultrob: vs Kofi:ultfalco:
Tweek has actually been going solo :ultjoker: the entire event so far, no signs of PT or Wario yet on his sets that have been streamed.
 

Y2Kay

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Tweek has stated he’s going all Joker no matter what.

Venia out here tryna prove he’s the best Greninja in the world. Just beat Dabuz 3-2.

:150:
 

bc1910

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Venia :ultgreninja: 3-2 Dabuz :ultolimar: for one of the biggest upsets of the tournament. Venia now sitting in Winner's Finals and guaranteed third.

Venia's belief in his character in the face of an increasingly sceptical community and iffy run of top level results is honestly inspiring.

His playstyle allows him to make the most of everything that makes Greninja strong without letting his opponents abuse the bad OOS weakness. Of all the top Greninja players, his playstyle is looking the closest to what I believe is optimal Greninja play, even compared to Lea and iStudying (both of whom I think use shield too much). Note that whenever Venia did shield it was usually when he knew Dabuz was going to mash, thus he was even able to get some shieldgrab punishes.

The ability to play around weaknesses to the point where they become near-inconsequential is one of the hallmarks of a top tier. Sleep on the frog at your peril.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Jan 10, 2018
Messages
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Return to Yoshi's Island (B Tier)

1st: Tweek:ultjoker:
2nd: Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina:
3rd: Venia:ultgreninja:
4th: Stocktaker69:ultwolf::ultwiifittrainer:
5th: Jul:ultrobin:
5th: Mj:ultrob:
7th: Mr E:ultlucina:
7th: Kofi:ultfalco:
9th: Suarez:ultyoshi:
9th: Sinji:ultpacman:
9th: UtopianRay:ultpalutena::ultbanjokazooie:
9th: Soan:ultike:
13th: Raptor:ultyoshi:
13th: Frozen:ultpalutena:
13th: SoulArts:ultshulk:
13th: Zomba:ultrob::ultlink::ultroy:


Pretty nice showcase of Tweek's Joker. Something to note that someone in Twitch chat noted, is that Tweek has focused quite a bit of his gameplay on his guns, especially aerial guns. Definitely a different playstyle than Leo's Joker.
 

Rizen

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Tweek's a wild card. It's hard to tell if he's having one long character crisis or if he just gets bored with who he's playing. Either way this is good news for Joker's rankings.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Messages
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I had to say. Prodigy's Mario play at GameTyrant Expo was freaking incredible. He was taking almost any confirm kind of crazy combo as well as "stairway to heaven" ladder ones for days. .
Man. I never seen anyome sucessfully 2-f rame ledge recoveries as consistently
has he did thoughout the tournament.
 
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TennisBall

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Does anyone know when the PGRU Season 2 will be? It's weird not seeing Maister or Elegant on there. Escpically with the results the two have gotten.
 

Lacrimosa

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Really good Zelda performance from Ven at GTX earlier.
Taking of two games from Prodigy, the later winner, is quite impressive and als the loser's match vs. Dragoomba was a 3-2 and beating Dakpo's Diddy which is a horrendous MU for her. I think with that showing, she should still be considered somewhere around mid-tier
 

blackghost

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i do think the game is old enough to start to see why characters like joker, peach, pickachu ,pt, and a few others are able to distance themselves from even very good other characters like bowser,snake, roy and chrom (along with others) and its purely due to versatility and option. having options> not having options.

Leon is no longer running through people due to his often wild playstyle and sheer kb potential. higher level player sare forcing his bowser more constantly into the games state he doesn't want to be in.MK leo demonstrated vs a very good joker just how effective gun is on and offstage. it seems that the elite characters the top tiers continue to reach into the goodie bag and not only refine their gameplay/ gameplan but pull out new strategies and approaches altogether. mid and high tier may continue to shuffle, but i really am starting to think the top tiers are really set.

as for tweek's tier list: shiek is too high, bayo is too high, samus is too low, inkling is a little high,and wiif it may be a little low.
 

MrGameguycolor

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Tweek's tier list:
This is pretty good IMO.
It's not prefect, I can tell there's some role-filling picks like M2 and Lucas.

But I do agree with others like Mario, Diddy and Shiek, and the questionable picks at least have some reason behind them.
Good job Tweek.
 
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PK Gaming

Smash Lord
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Return to Yoshi's Island (B Tier)

1st: Tweek:ultjoker:
2nd: Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina:
3rd: Venia:ultgreninja:
4th: Stocktaker69:ultwolf::ultwiifittrainer:
5th: Jul:ultrobin:
5th: Mj:ultrob:
7th: Mr E:ultlucina:
7th: Kofi:ultfalco:
9th: Suarez:ultyoshi:
9th: Sinji:ultpacman:
9th: UtopianRay:ultpalutena::ultbanjokazooie:
9th: Soan:ultike:
13th: Raptor:ultyoshi:
13th: Frozen:ultpalutena:
13th: SoulArts:ultshulk:
13th: Zomba:ultrob::ultlink::ultroy:


Pretty nice showcase of Tweek's Joker. Something to note that someone in Twitch chat noted, is that Tweek has focused quite a bit of his gameplay on his guns, especially aerial guns. Definitely a different playstyle than Leo's Joker.
Tweek isn't ****ing around anymore and I respect it

If he wants to be the best he needs to pick the best
 

NairWizard

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In a somewhat ironic twist, Joker started out as the flashiest and most exciting character in the game and now may be its campiest and most defensive at top level. As Dabuz has noted, it's actually very hard to lose as Joker if you camp patiently until you get Arsene. MKleo has been trending toward this direction to clutch out sets in his last few tournaments; he's been subverting Samsora's attempt to bait and punish the Arsene approaches by just not approaching, and thus never getting baited. During game 5 vs. Maister at Summit, Leo took 0 risks in neutral the entire game. If he couldn't react to something, he would just stand there and not try to act at all.

The Joker counterplay we saw developing earlier in the year is now getting counter-counterplay, and it looks like everyone's favorite trickster is more of a zoner than anything.

Tweek is embracing Joker's evolving zoner archetype full on with extended gun zoning and dash attack whiff punishing. Tweek's finally found a character who can just let him react to things, instead of requiring educated guesses in neutral, and that suits his elite reaction speed very well--his reaction speed is even higher than Leo's, so if this trend continues I expect him to take over the #1 spot.

I personally was enjoying the "reaction speed doesn't matter as much in neutral" meta that we were shifting to, but it appears that we are heading back to the S4 ways, at least for this particular (very good) character's meta.
 
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bc1910

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Another string to Greninja’s bow is his effectiveness against Joker, particularly the playstyle that Tweek was displaying. Greninja is fast enough to catch Joker if he decides to camp and also fast enough to run away from Arsene for however long he needs to. The effectiveness of the “campy Joker” playstyle is due in part to several of Ultimate’s top tiers being slower than top tiers in previous instalments. Characters like Peach, Pokemon Trainer, Olimar and Snake have a hard time pinning Joker down while faster top tiers such as Inkling, Pikachu and Greninja fare much better against him.

Venia put in a much more impressive showing against Tweek than Dabuz, narrowly losing 3-2 due mostly to his tendency to fight Arsene head on (he got Dair Usmash’d about 4 times in the set) as opposed to Dabuz who looked pretty lost most of the time. Bear in mind that Greninja has better overall mobility than every top tier except arguably ZSS, who has her own issues in the Joker MU courtesy of her precise hitboxes and weaker ground game. Greninja’s hitboxes are deceptively good, by the way; pay attention to how many times Fair, Nair and Bair beat out opposing aerials next time you’re watching a Greninja play.
 

Rizen

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Tweek isn't ****ing around anymore and I respect it

If he wants to be the best he needs to pick the best
This will be interesting to see: if Tweek has greater success with Joker like Leo or no noteworthy improvements like Void.

TBT you do better with top tiers. If you want to win they're the straightest path. I don't blame tweek or anyone who goes this rout. There's a reason why they have so many more points on Orion Stats than lower characters.
 

PK Gaming

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In a somewhat ironic twist, Joker started out as the flashiest and most exciting character in the game and now may be its campiest and most defensive at top level. As Dabuz has noted, it's actually very hard to lose as Joker if you camp patiently until you get Arsene. MKleo has been trending toward this direction to clutch out sets in his last few tournaments; he's been subverting Samsora's attempt to bait and punish the Arsene approaches by just not approaching, and thus never getting baited. During game 5 vs. Maister at Summit, Leo took 0 risks in neutral the entire game. If he couldn't react to something, he would just stand there and not try to act at all.

The Joker counterplay we saw developing earlier in the year is now getting counter-counterplay, and it looks like everyone's favorite trickster is more of a zoner than anything.

Tweek is embracing Joker's evolving zoner archetype full on with extended gun zoning and dash attack whiff punishing. Tweek's finally found a character who can just let him react to things, instead of requiring educated guesses in neutral, and that suits his elite reaction speed very well--his reaction speed is even higher than Leo's, so if this trend continues I expect him to take over the #1 spot.

I personally was enjoying the "reaction speed doesn't matter as much in neutral" meta that we were shifting to, but it appears that we are heading back to the S4 ways, at least for this particular (very good) character's meta.
I agree with the first half of your post, but I think you're placing too much stock in reaction speed. Good reaction speed is undoubtedly ideal for fighting games, but it's not what top players rely on to react to things. Top players can react super quick because they're anticipating an option. M2K's reaction speed is far from elite but his he can dominate by reading their opponents and punishing accordingly.

And honestly, even above-average reaction speed (190ms) vs average (220ms) is imperceptible in most (if not all) cases. It's further complicated by the input buffer that makes reacting to things outright impossible. If there is a meta shift, it'll be more on whether a character can deal with Joker's camping rather than gatekeeping any particular player's ability to compete based on their reaction speed.

I don't see Tweek surpassing Mkleo onthe Joker front anytime. There's just no getting around Mkleo's borderline God level mental strength and general genius compared to Tweek who (occasionally) crumples under pressure.
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
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Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
[/QUOTE]
Really? I thought that most people would agree that Greninja is Top 15 at worst and is a
Tweek's tier list:
I think this is good but I have some issues with it:
  • I don't like how High Tier and Top Tier are kind of combined as this calls into question where each tier begins and ends. However, the reason that it seems to be that way is becuase Top Tier has been replaced with 'Broken' tier. I'm a firm believer that no character in Ultimate is 'broken' and that this game is balanced enough to the point where no character is that good. 'Broken' is where we should keep characters like :4bayonetta::4cloud::rosalina::4sonic::metaknight::popo: not :ultpikachu::ultjoker::ultmario::ultpeach::ultinkling:.
  • The ordering of Tweek's tier list in general is questionable as well.
  • :ultinkling:is too high. While not everyone seems to be overrating her anymore, her strengths are not as good as the other characters near her and her weaknesses and MU spreads are both worse than everyone around her.
  • :ultmario: is a bit too high, but I'm glad that someone else realizes that he's just as good (if not better) than :4mario:.
  • While I would argue that :ultsheik: is a lower high tier, Tweek's tier list is organized in a way that makes me think she should be lower.
  • :ultduckhunt: and :ultsonic: should both be lower.
  • The entire top row of mid tier except :ultrosalina: and maybe :ultmarth: all are debatably high tiers.
  • :ultness: and :ultlink: seem kind of low and also could probably be in high tier.
  • Not a critique, but I'm just going to mention that I'm surprised that :ultpit:/ :ultdarkpit:are as high as they are but I 100% agree with where they are.
  • Is :ultjigglypuff:really as bad as :ultkirby::ultlittlemac::ultkrool:? Probably not.
  • :ultkingdedede: and :ultswordfighter: worse than :ultganondorf:? Um... no.
 
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NairWizard

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I agree with the first half of your post, but I think you're placing too much stock in reaction speed. Good reaction speed is undoubtedly ideal for fighting games, but it's not what top players rely on to react to things. Top players can react super quick because they're anticipating an option. M2K's reaction speed is far from elite but his he can dominate by reading their opponents and punishing accordingly.

And honestly, even above-average reaction speed (190ms) vs average (220ms) is imperceptible in most (if not all) cases. It's further complicated by the input buffer that makes reacting to things outright impossible. If there is a meta shift, it'll be more on whether a character can deal with Joker's camping rather than gatekeeping any particular player's ability to compete based on their reaction speed.
I've seen many people undersell the value of reaction speed in these games, and I've heard the word anticipation before. But I think it's important to clarify that what you're reacting to in this game is not always the animation itself--actually no one is able to consistently react to a frame 4 Snake f-tilt. What you're reacting to when you anticipate is the setup for the animation; once you've played the game enough, you start to visualize hitboxes moving around and you have a good idea of what option your opponent wants to go for in a given situation, so you can just put yourself in position and then react to your opponent being in position. What you call "anticipation" is in fact game knowledge + reaction rather than pure "prediction." Reaction is a big part of anticipation--at least 50% if not more.

Actually most of the reacting that happens in this game happens long before a hitbox pops out--top players are constantly spacing around each other by reacting to the other player's movement options and positioning.

Brawl and S4 were hallmark examples of reaction speed being absolutely king in all ways at a top level. ZeRo's ledgetrapping with Diddy that he was so famous for hinged almost entirely on his ability to snap-react to almost everything that you could do at ledge--you just can't get that kind of consistency on correctly guessing/reads. Tweek and ZeRo both played S4 in such a way that they could always react to 3/4 of the options that an opponent was likely to choose in a given situation. If they couldn't, they would back off, re-space, and try again. Their gameplans centered on finding such reactable situations in all game states.

Then we have Ultimate, where two things changed: 1) the increased input delay and lower overall lag (e.g., 3 frame jumpsquats) makes it much harder to react to raw animations, and 2) the neutral is based on dashing, and there are unreactable midrange dashing options. Do you remember MVD complaining that he didn't know what to do about Inkling neutral because dash attack was too fast to react to? Half of the time that Tweek complains about Ultimate, he's specifically complaining about how there are options that he can't react to; he calls Ultimate neutral full of "risky guesses," and that's why he says that he hates the game.

Don't get me wrong, reaction still matters a lot--Samsora's bait and punish style, ESAM and Light's aggression, etc., are all possible because of their extreme reaction times. Light has claimed before that he won't do anything if it isn't a reaction; ESAM similarly says that he bases most of his play on reactions and if he can't react (e.g., in an online setting), he can't consistently get the win.

When Nairo gets your ledge option 7 times in a row and ledgetraps you for 80%, do you think he's reading/predicting, or do you think he's putting himself in a position where he can punish 3/4 of your options and then reacting to the animation for which option you picked? It's the latter, hands down, and these top players will be the very first to tell you that.

m2k's reaction time is decidedly not average; I don't know who spread that myth (probably m2k himself said something like that way back in the AIM days), but he has far above-average reaction time.

Having a super fast reaction time vs. having an average one feels like playing the game in slow motion. if you combine that natural physical strength with game knowledge, that's when you get a top player, and that's when you get the skill known commonly as anticipation. But! And this is important to say, I think that Ultimate is the best game in the series so far for limiting the power of reaction. This Tweek example is the one exception so far.

I think Leo's Joker will remain #1 for a while, if only because I have faith in aggressive Joker being strong (he has unreactable mixups in so many situations), but the more defensive Joker gets, the more I think Tweek's nautral reaction advantage will shine.
 
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Rizen

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it's not what top players rely on to react to things. Top players can react super quick because they're anticipating an option.
^This.

I tried to play the game reactive and got punished for trying to punish. The 6f input lag puts a much higher value on good reads than reactions.
  • :ultness: and :ultlink: seem kind of low and also could probably be in high tier.
[/QUOTE]
Is Tweek underestimating Ness too? The character's 17 on Orion Stats, better than Pikachu. The problem is no one notices how good a character is until they sweep top players *coughPaultenacough*.
 

Ziodyne 21

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^This.

I tried to play the game reactive and got punished for trying to punish. The 6f input lag puts a much higher value on good reads than reactions.


  • :ultness: and :ultlink: seem kind of low and also could probably be in high tier.
Is Tweek underestimating Ness too? The character's 17 on Orion Stats, better than Pikachu. The problem is no one notices how good a character is until they sweep top players *coughPaultenacough*.[/QUOTE]



If your talking about Palutena. Its not that she was ever ignored or not considered very good . Pre-Mainstage she was considered top -tier albeit around the lower end of i. But then Nario won Mainstage and she was suddenly top 5 in every players tier list.

I mean even for Wolf no one thougt he was good until Zackray started wrecking in Japan with him. ZSS was considered mid-tier outside of Japan until Marss success with her, and now she is basically invading the meta in the place that always comsidered her top-tier..
 

PK Gaming

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What you call "anticipation" is in fact game knowledge + reaction rather than pure "prediction." Reaction is a big part of anticipation--at least 50% if not more.

Actually most of the reacting that happens in this game happens long before a hitbox pops out--top players are constantly spacing around each other by reacting to the other player's movement options and positioning.
But as I pointed out earlier, it's impossible to react to anything slower than 19 frames in Ultimate (average reaction speed is 13 frames + 7 frames of input lag). So for most of the attacks in the game, pure anticipation is the only way of dealing with attacks from your opponent. Elite reaction is roughly 30-40 milliseconds faster than the average which I believe was 1-3 frames shaved off (don't quote me on that). The difference matters of course, but not to a particularly significant degree imo. The reason why fighting game players don't really harp on pure reaction time is due to the following concept:



Top players are amazing at compartmentalizing options against their opponents. How players handle the "stack" and not necessarily pure reaction time is what truly defines the difference between top players and everyone below them.

Brawl and S4 were hallmark examples of reaction speed being absolutely king in all ways at a top level. ZeRo's ledgetrapping with Diddy that he was so famous for hinged almost entirely on his ability to snap-react to almost everything that you could do at ledge--you just can't get that kind of consistency on correctly guessing/reads. Tweek and ZeRo both played S4 in such a way that they could always react to 3/4 of the options that an opponent was likely to choose in a given situation. If they couldn't, they would back off, re-space, and try again. Their gameplans centered on finding such reactable situations in all game states.

Then we have Ultimate, where two things changed: 1) the increased input delay and lower overall lag (e.g., 3 frame jumpsquats) makes it much harder to react to raw animations, and 2) the neutral is based on dashing, and there are unreactable midrange dashing options. Do you remember MVD complaining that he didn't know what to do about Inkling neutral because dash attack was too fast to react to? Half of the time that Tweek complains about Ultimate, he's specifically complaining about how there are options that he can't react to; he calls Ultimate neutral full of "risky guesses," and that's why he says that he hates the game.
I'm sure their reactions have to do with it, but I think it's a matter of how fast they handle information and the speed at which they input that gives the edge. Even Daigo's infamous Evo moment 30 wasn't purely on reaction. If you watch his Ken, he's shuffling back and forth before Justin even uses his super. Speaking of Daigo, he outlined the 6 main things you need to succeed as a fighting game player.

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He specifically highlights thought speed over pure reaction, because how we process information is literally the most fundamental skill in fighting games.

m2k's reaction time is decidedly not average; I don't know who spread that myth (probably m2k himself said something like that way back in the AIM days), but he has far above-average reaction time.
M2K himself admitted as much in this [post]. He comes across as pretty fastidious so I don't think he's lying here.

Having a super fast reaction time vs. having an average one feels like playing the game in slow motion. if you combine that natural physical strength with game knowledge, that's when you get a top player, and that's when you get the skill known commonly as anticipation.
I genuinely feel like this is an extreme overreaction. Both from a practical perspective (as I outlined above), but also mindset. I'm not trying to be overly optimistic because I truly think top players have talents that set them apart from normal players but... it doesn't entirely come down to reaction speed.
 
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Megamang

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Being able to spindash and then shield if you didn't get the reaction you wanted really ruined some characters. I wouldn't say his final build was broken, but when he was Pseudo- Ness Bthrowing you it really REALLY oppressed the slower characters. He didn't crush top tiers but tons of slower mid tiers had to repeatedly guess against someone that wasn't guessing at all.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Being able to spindash and then shield if you didn't get the reaction you wanted really ruined some characters. I wouldn't say his final build was broken, but when he was Pseudo- Ness Bthrowing you it really REALLY oppressed the slower characters. He didn't crush top tiers but tons of slower mid tiers had to repeatedly guess against someone that wasn't guessing at all.

Keep in kind that Smash 4 Sonic also nerfs thought the life of the game . Yeah the shield cancelable spindash was pretty annoying but that was also combined a near Ness level b-throw and and Up and Forward smash that could kill at like 80%.

Well at least wasnt anything close pre-patched Diddy's hoo-hah
 
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NairWizard

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I'm sure their reactions have to do with it
There are many "anticipation" moments that actually aren't feasible without a fast reaction time in smash 4. Diddy Kong is a treasure trove of examples: Diddy d-tilting your shield and the followup response to it, the entire ZSS matchup and Nairo's ability to get grabs in that MU when no other ZSS could, and Diddy's ledgeplay with banana are extreme examples of reaction time roleplaying as the monarch of smash 4.


M2K himself admitted as much in this [post]. He comes across as pretty fastidious so I don't think he's lying here.
I think the online tests that he used only tested raw reaction speed rather than reaction speed in specific contexts (like modern reaction tests that test for reaction speed in a fighting game context). According to his most recent tests, his reaction speed falls between 9-14 frames currently, with a full 10 years of age and half the daily grind. I'm almost sure that he was faster back then, regardless of what this post says, and even much faster than that when he's in a familiar smash bros environment.


But as I pointed out earlier, it's impossible to react to anything slower than 19 frames in Ultimate (average reaction speed is 13 frames + 7 frames of input lag). So for most of the attacks in the game, pure anticipation is the only way of dealing with attacks from your opponent.
That (in combination with jumpsquat and other features) is why I said that Ultimate is generally not a reactive game. It's the first smash game (discounting Melee; I have no Melee knowledge or experience at all) in which I think I could possibly be a top player with the time investment, because my reaction speed doesn't matter as much as it would in 4 or Brawl. In this game, I can actually feel the ability to take down top players consistently lurking somewhere; when I play someone of that level I am actually just thinking, I haven't put enough time in, instead of, I'm just slower.

I agree with you that Ultimate, specifically, is not a reaction-based game, and I like it a lot for that reason.

I disagree with anyone who thinks that the previous 2 smash games weren't dominated by highly reactive play. I've had this debate more times than I can count, but, to your point, there are plenty of high-level players who believe that reaction time doesn't hold them back, so you're certainly not alone in this line of thinking.
 

Diddy Kong

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I actually do think Tweek is mostly right with his Tier List. But yes, Lucina, Wolf and Fox definitely need to be included in the Top Tier. Otherwise it's a great list.

Diddy seems high yes, but I don't think he's worse than the others where he's tiered amongst. It's just that nobody outside of Dakpo really wants to make him work. Maybe Tweek's High Tier is just.. a bit too big? Upper Mid Tier is definitely a Tier that exists in Ultimate and it fits characters like Diddy, Sheik, Young Link and Falco really well.
 

Ziodyne 21

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So..I have not seen many Tweeks ZSS placement. Does anyone think it was too low. I think she has proven to be top-tier
 

Rizen

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^I agree :ultzss: is top tier although on the lower end.
I actually do think Tweek is mostly right with his Tier List. But yes, Lucina, Wolf and Fox definitely need to be included in the Top Tier. Otherwise it's a great list.

Diddy seems high yes, but I don't think he's worse than the others where he's tiered amongst. It's just that nobody outside of Dakpo really wants to make him work. Maybe Tweek's High Tier is just.. a bit too big? Upper Mid Tier is definitely a Tier that exists in Ultimate and it fits characters like Diddy, Sheik, Young Link and Falco really well.
Yeah I've played a good :ultdiddy: and he's not a bad character. He fits into the 'neutral monster but weak kill power' catagory so many lower high tiers/upper mid tiers are in (:ultyounglink::ultsheik::ultduckhunt: and less so :ultpacman:). Pac can kill at good %s but it depends on how well the player can ready and use bonus fruit setups, specifically the flan (bell). Diddy with a banana is in a great position, similar to Pac with a bell.

The problem with any non top tier character is: why play them when you can have an easier time using a top tier? Because this they tend to have one top play rep at best like Raito or Tea and a few good but not top talented players.

TBH I've been training my secondaries :ultwolf::ultlink: because :ultyounglink: just doesn't cut it for tournaments :ohwell:
 
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