Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[TennisBall]

Also I’d love to see what you’ve experienced if you believe G&W-Ness is “practically unwinnable”. Characters with so many bad matchups simply don’t consistently make good placements in tournaments as often as Ness does compared to other characters with a similar amount of losing MUs as Ness is claimed to have.

I admit I may have over exaggerated a little with , but to me, G&W is his only truly awful match-up, and I still stand by everything I said on the matter, but I feel like every other character is doable, even characters like and . I would love to say I went though a Vietnam War with a pro Game and Watch and lost 6'0'd, but I rarely see him online and much less with Ness, and in terms of tournament, Game and Watch is not as common as someone like Wolf.
That being said, I'm not saying that BestNess is going to lose to some 7 year-old who accidently picked G&W when they really meant to pick Mario, but I do believe Ness has a difficult time against G&W.
You could say it's a bad time.

 

[Rizen]

So, anything interesting happen in the last 9 days?
I was on vacation.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Mainstage, the most recent S Tier event, happened on September 20th;

Spoiler: Outcome of the event

it's also the first S Tier a has won in Ultimate so far (Nairo).

Outside of that, things have been generally slow for the most part. There's been a lot of tier lists churned out recently by high level players (Dabuz, Samsora, Leffen), but not much else beyond that.

On the subject of , even if his recovery's mediocre, I've seen people die like as low as 50% from not being able to intercept it properly. While it's not hard to interrupt, Ness' recovery is easily the most punishing on the opponent if they screw up their edgeguard.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

And as per usual when a character wins an big tournament they suddenly end up in the top 3 character according to of pro players tier lists. But Palu has always beem considered top 10ish anyway so not too big a shocker.
Honestly it looks like Nairo has been stepping up his game as of late.

 

[The_Bookworm]

And as per usual when a character wins an big tournament they suddenly end up in the top 3 character according to of pro players tier lists. But Palu has always beem considered top 10ish anyway so not too big a shocker.
Honestly it looks like Nairo has been stepping up his game as of late.

For the longest time, Nairo was basically playing flow-chart Palutena, just to a stronger degree than everyone else. That is why everyone was like "She doesn't fit you Nairo.", because she seemingly played basic and non-hyper aggressive, unlike SSB4 ZSS (and how he played Brawl MK).

However, Nairo in the last few weeks, have implemented his more aggressive playstyle into his Palutena. One thing he noted that needs improvement was him respecting his opponents a little too much. He has since corrected that flaw.

As such, that is where Nairo began to show bigger, more consistent results, ultimately leading into his Mainstage victory.

 

[KirbySquad101]

On a side note, Umebura SP5 is happening right now; and it's looking quuuuiiitttteeee stacked:

Notable players:

Tea
Kameme
ProtoBanham
Etsuji
Eim
RAIN
T
kept
Raito
KEN
DIO
Masashi ()
Umeki
Kirihara
zackray
Abadango ()
Ke-Ya
Mr R ()
Kome
Gackt
Shky
Lea
ZAKI
Sigma
Some
Suinoko
YOC ()
AIR
Nietono
akasa

EDIT: Some upsets going around already:

Mr. R and AIR are in in Losers after losing their respective sets in the 2nd round of pools.

Masashi lost his first round and then lost to AIR in the Losers, eliminating him at 193rd place, his worst placement at a tournament yet.

 

[TennisBall]

On a side note, Umebura SP5 is happening right now; and it's looking quuuuiiitttteeee stacked:

Notable players:

Tea
Kameme
ProtoBanham
Etsuji
Eim
RAIN
T
kept
Raito
KEN
DIO
Masashi ()
Umeki
Kirihara
zackray
Abadango ()
Ke-Ya
Mr R ()
Kome
Gackt
Shky
Lea
ZAKI
Sigma
Some
Suinoko
YOC ()
AIR

Let's go Kept!

 

[Planty]

If we're sharing ridiculous hitboxes, look at dash attack:

There is a little sparkle effect in front of her face to show that the hitbox is super disjointed, but even with that little visual effect, the second hit of dash attack extends WAY past what you expect (and the range has saved me more times than I care to admit).

In the case of Rosalina, it's understandable that she's given obscenely large hitboxes, because if they were smaller, Luma would knock opponents too far away for Rosa's hits to properly connect *cough* fair *cough*

 

[KirbySquad101]

I think her having huge hitboxes is also a pretty good trade off for being giant herself while also being lightweight (kind of reminds me of in that regard).

Speaking of Rosalina, I’m not sure how I continue to be surprised by Japan’s diversity, but they really have their A game in terms of pushing character’s metas:

Top 8 at Umebura SP5:

Winner’s Side:

Kameme vs zackray ()
ProtoBanham () vs shuton ()

Loser’s Side:

kept vs Kirihara
DIO vs Choco

 

[blackghost]

I admit I may have over exaggerated a little with , but to me, G&W is his only truly awful match-up, and I still stand by everything I said on the matter, but I feel like every other character is doable, even characters like and . I would love to say I went though a Vietnam War with a pro Game and Watch and lost 6'0'd, but I rarely see him online and much less with Ness, and in terms of tournament, Game and Watch is not as common as someone like Wolf.
That being said, I'm not saying that BestNess is going to lose to some 7 year-old who accidently picked G&W when they really meant to pick Mario, but I do believe Ness has a difficult time against G&W.
You could say it's a bad time.

i dont think you exaggerated regarding villager vs game and watch. That MU should be unwinnable if players are of equal skill for villager. game and watch bucket is just crippling for villager to deal with. the best way for villager to deal with it is to fill the bucket with lloid rockets so game and watch loses his reflect then zone him out. So he has to literally play with fire.

 

[$.A.F.]

i dont think you exaggerated regarding villager vs game and watch. That MU should be unwinnable if players are of equal skill for villager. game and watch bucket is just crippling for villager to deal with. the best way for villager to deal with it is to fill the bucket with lloid rockets so game and watch loses his reflect then zone him out. So he has to literally play with fire.

I think he’s talking about Ness vs G&W

 

[TennisBall]

I think he’s talking about Ness vs G&W

Yeah I was, but that's a good pointer to know.
Game and Watch takes another of my mains to the underworld.
is a fun character though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Umebura SP 5 (A Tier)


1st: Shuton
2nd: Zackray
3rd: Choco
4th: Kirihara
5th: ProtoBanham
5th: kameme
7th: kept
7th: DIO
9th: Kome
9th: Jagaimo
9th: Tea
9th: Etsuji
13th: Rotsuku
13th: Nietono (Yes, he is back to Pichu)
13th: Lea
13th: Tsu

 

[KirbySquad101]

If anyone's curious, the rest of top 32:

17th: Umeki
17th: KEN
17th: Raito
17th: Eim
17th: Abadango
17th: RAIN
17th: Gackt
17th: Hayato
25th: T
25th: Yamanyon
25th: Some
25th: Somo
25th: Sigma
25th: Harasen
25th: Kare
25th: Zuzuba

Notable players out earlier:

Mr R (out at 65th)
Masashi (out at 193rd)
YOC (out at 65th)
akasa (out at 65th)
ZAKI (out at 33rd)
Shogun (out at 65th)

Some notes:

- From what I've seen, the only Japan players to perform consistently strong at a top level (or even locals) are Kameme, ProtoBanham, and to a lesser extent, Tea. I think the biggest reason for this is the exact reason Mr R performed so poorly at this tournament: Compared to the US, Japan is filled with far more character specialists, specialists for characters that Mr. R probably hasn't encountered even once (for reference, he lost to a in Pools with , then he lost to Somo in Losers with /). In this case, he has zilch experience against Pac-Man, and he ended up paying dearly for that. On a side note, he seems to have put on the back burner for now in favor of using as his prime secondary. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

- There's not much point in dancing around the big major thing from this tournament: A in top 4 at an A Tier event. While Kirihara had a slightly less impressive performance compared to Brood's breakout, he had a very strong run in Loser's, taking out KEN, then kept, and then even ProtoBanham in some really close games. To be fair, I was familiar with Kirihara beforehand, and he has done very well in the past with the character (got 9th at Umebura Japan Major), so while his placement isn't as surprising as the player's, it doesn't make it any less phenomenal. I'm hoping to see more from him soon, he's done a great job of showing off Roslina's strengths, and it's good to see that Rosalina doesn't need to rely on Dabuz to carry her (can we talk about how Luma is pretty much a Shield Art for Rosalina? The amount of times he cheated Rosalina's butt from death was surprisingly a lot from what I've seen).

- We got to see the return of some old mains: Nietono seems to have returned back to the , and zackray actually busted out the on a few occasions, with being held back for most of the tournament. I'm curious as to what changed for Nietono to make the switch back to Pichu, but regardless, it's good to see that he's performing well again with the character. Also, a trio of Joker/Wolf/R.O.B. sounds incredibly scary.

- It feels like every week, Abadango is deciding on which character he uses to be his new main. First, , then it was , then it was , now it's ? I know it's probably a coincidence, but I can't help but feel that his decision to go full Palutena this tournament was influenced by Nairo's victory at MainStage.

That's all I have to talk about for now.

 

[Zinith]

Rotsuko wasn't considered a "notable player" earlier and yet there he is at 13th

 

[NotLiquid]

- It feels like every week, Abadango is deciding on which character he uses to be his new main. First, , then it was , then it was , now it's ? I know it's probably a coincidence, but I can't help but feel that his decision to go full Palutena this tournament was influenced by Nairo's victory at MainStage.

Abadango being extremely swayed by the current trends is kind of his thing by now. He conveniently switched back to Wario after Tweek/Glutonny got results.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I was actually hoping somebody would pick up Pichu once again in Ultimate. I missed seeing this character. He had such great combos and a very rewarding advantage state, despite dying to nearly anything. It's great to know he's getting exposure again, as I think a character like Pichu is actually healthy for the current Ultimate meta.

 

[Megamang]

I totally get the character crisis. While I have somewhat settled, I often get a twinge of 'can this character really give me the results I want'. Such a balanced game can give you this kind of crisis, you get blown up and wonder if your character can actually deal with the issues. Generally they can (though its easy for me to say this when I main high and top tiers). It feels nice when your character is clearly on the upper end of the cast / gets some extra privilege vs everyone... but there isn't SO much of that this game. There is still tiering, of course, but you have to respect the enemy and you probably don't have a simple flowchart that annihilates their options. This can lead to character crisis, or at least has for me.


Then you see someone do amazing with a character you dabbled with, they do some new stuff or even some stuff you knew about works on a PGR player... suddenly they look pretty appealing.

Kinda like the Joker resurgence when Leo showed us how many ways he can combo and confirm into kills. We're all looking for direction, and while we appreciate people who plow their own way into the meta, its always nice to know what is possible at high level and what to try and emulate. Its a big reason I think stream culture has really really boosted the meta. I'm better at this game than any before, yet my best placements were generally in Brawl. I wasn't that good, I had one practice partner, but people didn't just know things. When I see something new at a tournament, its common knowledge by the end of the day. Which is great for the meta and our advancement!

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I was actually hoping somebody would pick up Pichu once again in Ultimate. I missed seeing this character. He had such great combos and a very rewarding advantage state, despite dying to nearly anything. It's great to know he's getting exposure again, as I think a character like Pichu is actually healthy for the current Ultimate meta.

Coincidentally, I feel the same about after seeing Dakpo's performance with him.
After the nerfs and buffs, he's a super fun character to watch and root for, hope we get to see even more of him.

 

[VodkaHaze]

Something is telling me that with kept getting consistent results with , the character isn't as garbage as people make him out to be. Not saying I think he'll be top tier, but so many people make Villager look to be one inch away from bottom tier. kept has shown Villager has some decent zoning potential, so hopefully he isn't the only noteworthy Villager.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Something is telling me that with kept getting consistent results with , the character isn't as garbage as people make him out to be. Not saying I think he'll be top tier, but so many people make Villager look to be one inch away from bottom tier. kept has shown Villager has some decent zoning potential, so hopefully he isn't the only noteworthy Villager.

Everything about him that was good in Smash 4 is still good here, some things even more so.

The game's faster pace is what actually makes him worse as he doesn't have a lot of fast options most of the time and isn't a fast character in terms of mobility either.

 

[$.A.F.]

Something is telling me that with kept getting consistent results with , the character isn't as garbage as people make him out to be. Not saying I think he'll be top tier, but so many people make Villager look to be one inch away from bottom tier. kept has shown Villager has some decent zoning potential, so hopefully he isn't the only noteworthy Villager.

I feel like in Ultimate there are a lot of characters that just get written off for no good reason. to name a few are characters that just get slept on no matter what results they get. every character here has done something or has something way too good to be just relegated to low tier with no reasoning behind it IMO.

 

[TennisBall]

have been shown again and again and again to be a threat in the meta thanks to insane desync combos that do 50% off of a single grab, and it's getting advanced by the day.
Unfortunately, results seems to dictate opinions way more than they should, I understand that results can be used to an extent but putting characters in low tier just because of lack of results is common and I'm not a big fan of it.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

have been shown again and again and again to be a threat in the meta thanks to insane desync combos that do 50% off of a single grab, and it's getting advanced by the day.
Unfortunately, results seems to dictate opinions way more than they should, I understand that results can be used to an extent but putting characters in low tier just because of lack of results is common and I'm not a big fan of it.

IC biggest issue is Nana's AI, even after the buff that "improved it" she still sometimes compeltely bungles things up. It unfotunatley makes the character somewhat inconsistent

 

[ZephyrZ]

It's not just AI holding the Icies back, its their terrible approach as well. They have terrible run speed, terrible air speed and a terrible initial dash. Good air acceleration but that's about it. They have decent enough range, but they aren't going to be able to wall or suffocate you the way Lucina and Ike can.

Their neutral b is often compared to DDD's gordos, but I'd argue they're much worse since they move in a much more predictable pattern, making them far easier to reflect or jump over.

All these things combined makes it very hard for Icies to deal with camping. While the duo can be very explosive and win off of a couple neutral wins, getting those neutral victories can be hell of them and a character with a decent projectile.

Their aerials are really good on shield at least. Nair Bair are + on shield when synched while Bair is -0, which is really good. So they've got that going for them at least.

I'm honestly kind of glad they're so never played though. They're so deadly up close that you're kind of forced to camp versus them, and that's not really fun. At least Ken moves fast enough that trying to camp him at least feels suspenseful, but spamming Razor Leaf and Flamethrower vs Icies just feels kind of lame.

 

[Arthur97]

I feel like in Ultimate there are a lot of characters that just get written off for no good reason. to name a few are characters that just get slept on no matter what results they get. every character here has done something or has something way too good to be just relegated to low tier with no reasoning behind it IMO.

In the cases of Cloud and Meta Knight (maybe IC too), they are likely suffering from too much success...in previous games. Even if they are good now, they aren't broken, so therefore, they look bad in comparison.

 

[Nebunera]

Do you guys think should be buffed? If so how?

 

[Rizen]

Do you guys think should be buffed? If so how?

The Pits are fairly good and their main problem is being too honest. No ridiculous hitboxes, insane combos or crazy kill moves. As such, giving their attacks a little more kick here and there would be the best way to go about it without making them obnoxious. Unfortunately that wouldn't get people to play them *coughcough*.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

It's not just AI holding the Icies back, its their terrible approach as well. They have terrible run speed, terrible air speed and a terrible initial dash. Good air acceleration but that's about it. They have decent enough range, but they aren't going to be able to wall or suffocate you the way Lucina and Ike can.

Their neutral b is often compared to DDD's gordos, but I'd argue they're much worse since they move in a much more predictable pattern, making them far easier to reflect or jump over.

All these things combined makes it very hard for Icies to deal with camping. While the duo can be very explosive and win off of a couple neutral wins, getting those neutral victories can be hell of them and a character with a decent projectile.

Their aerials are really good on shield at least. Nair Bair are + on shield when synched while Bair is -0, which is really good. So they've got that going for them at least.

I'm honestly kind of glad they're so never played though. They're so deadly up close that you're kind of forced to camp versus them, and that's not really fun. At least Ken moves fast enough that trying to camp him at least feels suspenseful, but spamming Razor Leaf and Flamethrower vs Icies just feels kind of lame.

So basically the IC's are a somewhat imferior version of .Who also very scary uo close and can take stocks by winning neutral once or twice. But actullay getting in can be difficult vs characters with good mobiltiy and/or camping ability.

The Pits are fairly good and their main problem is being too honest. No ridiculous hitboxes, insane combos or crazy kill moves.

So the identical issue they had in Smash 4. Even though there is a lot less "jank" in Ultimate they still just dont have what it takes to be notabally good.

 

[JayEmDubya]

Something is telling me that with kept getting consistent results with , the character isn't as garbage as people make him out to be. Not saying I think he'll be top tier, but so many people make Villager look to be one inch away from bottom tier. kept has shown Villager has some decent zoning potential, so hopefully he isn't the only noteworthy Villager.

Everything about him that was good in Smash 4 is still good here, some things even more so.

The game's faster pace is what actually makes him worse as he doesn't have a lot of fast options most of the time and isn't a fast character in terms of mobility either.

Nah, as a main in Sm4sh, I still think is kind of trash in this game.

The main problem with compared to 4 is that every single one of his kill options was gutted.

-Jab now has a finisher, so jab to axe no longer works.
-Pivot grabs in general had their ranges greatly reduced, so Villager's pivot grab is now borderline useless, ever with the endlag being greatly reduced. (To add insult to injury, his grab range was reduced all around, to the extent where it doesn't even match the animation.)
-Dair used to be a great edgeguarding tool, but now it comes out around frame 18 instead of frame 8, so it's much less useful in that regard.
-Up tilt now kills about 20% later than in Smash 4 for some reason. This also makes ledge traps in Ultimate much less effective.
-Bowling ball is still OK (and actually got buffed mostly by the physics changes in Ultimate), but it's still a frame 19 move with no confirms. Also, opponents can now airdodge to the edge to avoid getting two framed.
-Ultimate's physics make going for raw axe chops much more risky.

Villager basically has to pray to hit a raw point blank slingshot offstage or a bowling ball in order to kill before 200%. Add to that the fact that most top or high tier characters either greatly outrange you, are able to jump over Lloids and rip your face off, or are able to outcamp you, and you have a low mid/low high tier.

Kept is a very, very good player, but the only other person doing anything with Villager is PandaBair. Every other promenant Villager main from Sm4sh is either retired (Ranai, Aarvark, CaptAwesum) or switched to a higher tier character (Skillager/Skilly, MJG, SS).

I feel like in Ultimate there are a lot of characters that just get written off for no good reason. to name a few are characters that just get slept on no matter what results they get. every character here has done something or has something way too good to be just relegated to low tier with no reasoning behind it IMO.

Most of those characters aren't terrible, but none of them have the frame data and/or mobility to do hard rushdown, which is pretty much a necessity unless you have something insanely safe and jank that kills sub 120% consistently ( blue upthrow, uptilt/Nikita offstage, side b offstage, etc...). They just don't fit the Ultimate meta, which heavily favors rushdown and offensive play.

The unfortunate reality is that there are about 25-30 or so characters that are viable at high level of play and are able to get decent results without a massive skill level gap. For the other 45-50 characters, you're playing them because you either really like their playstyle to the extent you're willing to risk good results to play them or think there's a small chance they have hidden potential and are actually viable. The characters you listed, along with most "mid tiers" in this game, just aren't good enough to be a practical main if you're 100% focused on winning.

 

[$.A.F.]

Nah, as a main in Sm4sh, I still think is kind of trash in this game.

The main problem with compared to 4 is that every single one of his kill options was gutted.

-Jab now has a finisher, so jab to axe no longer works.
-Pivot grabs in general had their ranges greatly reduced, so Villager's pivot grab is now borderline useless, ever with the endlag being greatly reduced. (To add insult to injury, his grab range was reduced all around, to the extent where it doesn't even match the animation.)
-Dair used to be a great edgeguarding tool, but now it comes out around frame 18 instead of frame 8, so it's much less useful in that regard.
-Up tilt now kills about 20% later than in Smash 4 for some reason. This also makes ledge traps in Ultimate much less effective.
-Bowling ball is still OK (and actually got buffed mostly by the physics changes in Ultimate), but it's still a frame 19 move with no confirms. Also, opponents can now airdodge to the edge to avoid getting two framed.
-Ultimate's physics make going for raw axe chops much more risky.

Villager basically has to pray to hit a raw point blank slingshot offstage or a bowling ball in order to kill before 200%. Add to that the fact that most top or high tier characters either greatly outrange you, are able to jump over Lloids and rip your face off, or are able to outcamp you, and you have a low mid/low high tier.

Kept is a very, very good player, but the only other person doing anything with Villager is PandaBair. Every other promenant Villager main from Sm4sh is either retired (Ranai, Aarvark, CaptAwesum) or switched to a higher tier character (Skillager/Skilly, MJG, SS).



Most of those characters aren't terrible, but none of them have the frame data and/or mobility to do hard rushdown, which is pretty much a necessity unless you have something insanely safe and jank that kills sub 120% consistently ( blue upthrow, uptilt/Nikita offstage, side b offstage, etc...). They just don't fit the Ultimate meta, which heavily favors rushdown and offensive play.

The unfortunate reality is that there are about 25-30 or so characters that are viable at high level of play and are able to get decent results without a massive skill level gap. For the other 45-50 characters, you're playing them because you either really like their playstyle to the extent you're willing to risk good results to play them or think there's a small chance they have hidden potential and are actually viable. The characters you listed, along with most "mid tiers" in this game, just aren't good enough to be a practical main if you're 100% focused on winning.

I heavily disagree personally. Plant has a top level main, Villager has a top level main, K. Rool has won a major, Rosa has a top level co main, the arguable best player in Japan plays Sonic, a Little Mac has top 16’d two majors in a row that he attended, 3 separate Toon Link players hit top 8 at SEPARATE majors some multiple times, a Zelda player has beaten Esam handily, etc. etc. I will stand by the statement that no character is unviable in Ultimate as of now. Even bottom 10 characters are still viable.

 

[Lacrimosa]

ESAM did self-destruct multiple times during that set versus Ven's Zelda, though.
Tea vs. Mystearica is a more proper set to evaluate and is by no means a good MU for because a properly set-up hydrant will stuff out her approach options. Still, Zelda has a reflector that Pac-Man has to be aware off since most of his approaches are done with projectiles. It's not as lopsided as vs. Zelda (Captain L murdered Ven at SnS5) but I also think Tea has underestimated her upB because he got hit by a lot of them.
Still, I think that Zelda is in a really weird spot where most of the European smashers have very little experience fighting her and that's visible in nearly every tier-list from an European player (Armada most notably) and also in the US she depends on Mystearica and Ven to do well and they haven't entered any big tournament during September. At least Myst won a tournament where Darkshad () and sinnyboo (, a really bad MU) participated but I think it doesn't count for OrionStats, sadly.

You can do well with her and the other mentioned characters but you need a blessed day if you want to go anywhere with them. Like, praying that your Pikachu-playing opponent self-destructs a lot.

 

[Daisycakes]

Do you guys think should be buffed? If so how?

No. They are fine. I would even go and say that they are straight upgrades over someone like Lucina (and maybe Inkling too), with next to no hard counters against them.

 

[$.A.F.]

have been shown again and again and again to be a threat in the meta thanks to insane desync combos that do 50% off of a single grab, and it's getting advanced by the day.
Unfortunately, results seems to dictate opinions way more than they should, I understand that results can be used to an extent but putting characters in low tier just because of lack of results is common and I'm not a big fan of it.

What makes things worse is that they DO have a top level rep and still get slept on. Big D has won a major with this character and nobody batted an eye.

 

[blackghost]

im sorry but having combos isnt the make or break for a character. icies arent being slept on but until they prove themselves to be a mnore consistent threat there is no logical reason to say they are slept on.
villager is fighting ultimate's engine. the broad reason of why he isnt that good.
there ARE unviable characters in ultimate.how many thier are is up for debate but there at least 3 to 5 characters that are not competitive due to MU spreads, consistency issues, or not having the tools to adapt to an unusual playstyle.

like with plant winning one event or having one player do well is not indicative of a character being good. kept's results dont make an argument for villager it makes an argument that kept is crazy good.

 

[$.A.F.]

im sorry but having combos isnt the make or break for a character. icies arent being slept on but until they prove themselves to be a mnore consistent threat there is no logical reason to say they are slept on.
villager is fighting ultimate's engine. the broad reason of why he isnt that good.
there ARE unviable characters in ultimate.how many thier are is up for debate but there at least 3 to 5 characters that are not competitive due to MU spreads, consistency issues, or not having the tools to adapt to an unusual playstyle.

like with plant winning one event or having one player do well is not indicative of a character being good. kept's results dont make an argument for villager it makes an argument that kept is crazy good.

So a player getting top level results with a character doesn’t prove that character is at the very least viable? The entire meaning of a character being viable is being able to get results. If that character is capable getting results they are viable by logic. It doesn’t mean top tier but it means viable. You can argue just how viable they are but there isn’t a debate. This is bad what you’re saying.

Viable=Able to get results and do well at top level play

Character: gets results at top level play

Result: Viable.

Like I said there is merit in discussions about HOW viable a character is, but you cannot argue that a character can’t ever get results as a retort to the character getting results.

 

[Repli.Cant]

Do you guys think should be buffed? If so how?

Generally I think they're fine. Of course they lack that "x-factor" other characters have like Inkling Ink or Joker's Arsene, but I think they don't need it. New Pit bair is a really good spacing disjoint that also kills now. Maybe fthrow killing a bit earlier, maybe usmash being a bit stronger. All I think he needs is maybe better hitboxes on nair and fair. They're both some of his most used moves by far but watching the blades fly through an opponent's head is just bad.

Spoiler: Fair hitbox

Spoiler: Nair hitbox

Also Pit nair sometimes has an issue connecting but I feel like that's commonplace in Ultimate.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Coincidentally, I feel the same about after seeing Dakpo's performance with him.
After the nerfs and buffs, he's a super fun character to watch and root for, hope we get to see even more of him.

Same here. Nobody playing Diddy had seriously hurt my gameplay a bit, cause Brawl and Smash 4 had lots of dedicated top players so it was easier to copy some stuff. It forced me to be creative, and that's why 95% of my posts here prior the buffs where that Diddy was underrated. Which I still kind of think honestly, but at least Dakpo is taking him places. The barrel shenanigans are lots of fun, and you really can't allow yourself to stay open against Diddy for too long because of it.

However, after all the nerfs (and later buffs) Smash 4 Diddy wasn't all that toxic at all anymore. He was quite a balanced top tier, where even characters way lower than him sometimes had a even matchup against him. That's something Bayonetta and Cloud didn't have, they just about ruined everything by simply existing.

Anyway, there's hope that they buff Diddy a little more. He could do with more range (especially on F Air), air speed and overall better recovery. That would take away a lot of his defensive weaknesses he suddenly got in Ultimate.

 

[blackghost]

So a player getting top level results with a character doesn’t prove that character is at the very least viable? The entire meaning of a character being viable is being able to get results. If that character is capable getting results they are viable by logic. It doesn’t mean top tier but it means viable. You can argue just how viable they are but there isn’t a debate. This is bad what you’re saying.

Viable=Able to get results and do well at top level play

Character: gets results at top level play

Result: Viable.

Like I said there is merit in discussions about HOW viable a character is, but you cannot argue that a character can’t ever get results as a retort to the character getting results.

one player isnt enough. when you have one user of a character in a sea of other characters that are frequently represented many more times in terms of results in ultimate it isnt a strong basis to say the one is stronger than the many.

We saw this with plant recently. long term viability includes multiple phases 1. character introduced 2. character is grown by its community and has practical usage in midlevel to high-level matches 3. character gets initial results 4. players adapt to the new character after MU unfamiliarity period ends. 5. even with adaptation players still see results in multiple players.
this isn't officialor anything but there are characters that have come close or are in the process of doing this model. i.e. pac man, ken, bowser, MAYBE icies. each of these characters, in my opinion, have at least reached step 4. ken and pac man are step 5.

Players often think the process ends at step 3. they run here or on twitter and post how they were right all along. there are still multiple steps left. one result from one player isnt enough. its like looking at stock market data, the best options have sustained success or growth.

 

[$.A.F.]

one player isnt enough. when you have one user of a character in a sea of other characters that are frequently represented many more times in terms of results in ultimate it isnt a strong basis to say the one is stronger than the many.

We saw this with plant recently. long term viability includes multiple phases 1. character introduced 2. character is grown by its community and has practical usage in midlevel to high-level matches 3. character gets initial results 4. players adapt to the new character after MU unfamiliarity period ends. 5. even with adaptation players still see results in multiple players.
this isn't officialor anything but there are characters that have come close or are in the process of doing this model. i.e. pac man, ken, bowser, MAYBE icies. each of these characters, in my opinion, have at least reached step 4. ken and pac man are step 5.

Players often think the process ends at step 3. they run here or on twitter and post how they were right all along. there are still multiple steps left. one result from one player isnt enough. its like looking at stock market data, the best options have sustained success or growth.

one player isnt enough. when you have one user of a character in a sea of other characters that are frequently represented many more times in terms of results in ultimate it isnt a strong basis to say the one is stronger than the many.

We saw this with plant recently. long term viability includes multiple phases 1. character introduced 2. character is grown by its community and has practical usage in midlevel to high-level matches 3. character gets initial results 4. players adapt to the new character after MU unfamiliarity period ends. 5. even with adaptation players still see results in multiple players.
this isn't officialor anything but there are characters that have come close or are in the process of doing this model. i.e. pac man, ken, bowser, MAYBE icies. each of these characters, in my opinion, have at least reached step 4. ken and pac man are step 5.

Players often think the process ends at step 3. they run here or on twitter and post how they were right all along. there are still multiple steps left. one result from one player isnt enough. its like looking at stock market data, the best options have sustained success or growth.

EDIT:
Except kept has been top 8ing majors since late May. Brood has 2-0d players like Ken before this and 2-0d Proto-fricking-Banham after Umebura SP 4 https://youtu.be/OvfAeqKtd3U. And with Panda Bair and DiZ/Greward/Lucky respectively that qualifies by your standards as well as viable. Same with Big D since you have Kie who has top 8 multiple major tournaments with icies. This all sounds very viable to me