Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Frihetsanka]

Do people still think Hero's bad? I still think he's top or high tier, despite his poor frame data the character has so much silly stuff going for him from his specials.

 

[boysilver400]

I think is Mid tier at best. He definitely has crazy stuff, but so far he really just has Port Priority 5 for results. We’ve also seen that he can get roughed up hard by Rushdown characters and his lack of mobility and poor frame data has an impact. This could change, though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think is Mid tier at best. He definitely has crazy stuff, but so far he really just has Port Priority 5 for results. We’ve also seen that he can get roughed up hard by Rushdown characters and his lack of mobility and poor frame data has an impact. This could change, though.

Salem also mostly used Snake throughout the event, only using Hero against BestNess and yeti (at least in terms of notable players).
Salem tried to solo Hero in the past, realized that it wouldn't work, so he decided to use him alongside Snake instead.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Ya, I don't actually think Hero's solo viable, but definitely worth having as a pocket.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So I think its safe to say can be considered a legit high-tier character at the moment. His placings and success right no is something most-superheavies could only dream of in the past without dependign on anything like Ding-Dong.

Bowser still basically has all they typical traits and disadvantages superheavies are usaully burdened with. So what makes him seemingly sp much better and sucessful than the rest of his weight-class. It has to go for having a slightly better disadvsntage state with having a legitametly good Oos that even some top-high tiers lack (i.e ) and tough guy armor that will stop any rapid jabs

 

[DungeonMaster]

I feel bad for Konga, I really enjoyed watching his sets in 4. To reiterate the obvious: DK is bad in ultimate. He used to be my secondary in Brawl, and his hitboxes have degraded over the itterations and his hurtbox with all these combos is too much of a liability in this engine vs the grab reward. It's that risk/reward balance that's off kilter.

I think why they did what they did to DK is specifically because of global mechanics changes. He has 3 spiking aerials, the fair, the slap and the foot. So in principle, because ground spikes in ultimate cannot be teched and lead to true combos, in principle he has a 3 layered combo tree of damage and kill confirms from the strong and weak spikes. And then there's always headbutt of course for kill confirm. Problem is it just doesn't add up to an actual lower % kill confirm from grab.

And shield, his shield might as well not exist. Samus matchup might be 9-1, I can count on one hand the number of losses I've had to DK in all the months of ultimate. You tap his shield with practically any move and short hop up-air will shield poke and then you're looking at 30-40 damage, juggles, and kills. It's target practice.

 

[ARISTOS]

I feel bad for Konga, I really enjoyed watching his sets in 4. To reiterate the obvious: DK is bad in ultimate. He used to be my secondary in Brawl, and his hitboxes have degraded over the itterations and his hurtbox with all these combos is too much of a liability in this engine vs the grab reward. It's that risk/reward balance that's off kilter.

I think why they did what they did to DK is specifically because of global mechanics changes. He has 3 spiking aerials, the fair, the slap and the foot. So in principle, because ground spikes in ultimate cannot be teched and lead to true combos, in principle he has a 3 layered combo tree of damage and kill confirms from the strong and weak spikes. And then there's always headbutt of course for kill confirm. Problem is it just doesn't add up to an actual lower % kill confirm from grab.

And shield, his shield might as well not exist. Samus matchup might be 9-1, I can count on one hand the number of losses I've had to DK in all the months of ultimate. You tap his shield with practically any move and short hop up-air will shield poke and then you're looking at 30-40 damage, juggles, and kills. It's target practice.

I think DK still kills pretty early and succeeds at being an offensive powerhouse, which seemed to be the gameplan-when DK touches you you definitely take a ton of damage. The issue is that everyone deals quite a bit of damage.

The defensive changes, more than anything, are the biggest detriment to the character. Because everyone outputs so much damage, being able to escape from bad situations on shield and avoid juggles is so crucial, and DK can't do anything in those situations apart from reset to ledge and try again. The only characters he does well against are those whose defense is almost as bad as his () where one good hit means he can continue rolling you to death. The issue is that they also get to do the same.

The lack of a good forward facing aerial is also a huge liability, and it has been for several games now. It significantly weakens both his approach and air-to-air game and leaves him prone to getting jumped in on easily.

______________________________________________________________________

I want to talk about , because while the character is unpopular I think when Luma is active her offensive and neutral control is among the strongest in the game-the only real issue being that Luma is now very often inactive unless Rosa is winning handily.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I always felt like Rosalina was underrated; even without Dabuz, Kirihara has had some pretty consistent success with the character in Japan, even if he isn't quite that active XD

Her ledge-trapping with Luma is looking to be one of the scariest in the game so far, which is an absolute deal breaker in certain match-ups against characters like and (two characters Dabuz ended up wining against); even without that, she's got really good mid-range poking with Luma's Jab and her Star Bits attack, which does such a good job of walling out characters with linear approaches.

She does kind of look like a helpless waif without Luma, though; particularly, without his defense, she starts undergoing 's "Big Body-Light Weight" syndrome and can blow up quite easily because of it (i.e. what happened in the Dabuz-Nicko match). That said, I noticed she can mitigate this a ton thanks to both her NAir (which is fast, covers a lot of area, and prevents characters from steam-rolling her), and stalling via her above average grab (courtesy of the grab buff she received thanks to patch updates).

 

[Rizen]

's proven to be high tier and he works well with the game's engine where everything is safe and strong reads are important. I do think the gap between him and DK is being exaggerated by LeoN's skill at making reads and spacing and Konga's character crisis. DK's problems in disadvantage are shared by Bowser and you can really see it in game 2 where Umeki 3 stocks LeoN in a short time. Bowser has a lot of obstacles in high and top tier to work around. DK with the right players behind him could make waves too.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

's proven to be high tier and he works well with the game's engine where everything is safe and strong reads are important. I do think the gap between him and DK is being exaggerated by LeoN's skill at making reads and spacing and Konga's character crisis. DK's problems in disadvantage are shared by Bowser and you can really see it in game 2 where Umeki 3 stocks LeoN in a short time. Bowser has a lot of obstacles in high and top tier to work around. DK with the right players behind him could make waves too.

Bowser has an actual effective Oos option an "decent " recovery, Better airiel approch options. Overall safer grond buttons and a lot more . He is likely the easiest character to edgeguard thats not Little Mac

It was mentioed before but the overall Buff/Nerf ratio of both Bowser and DK is quite surpisingly went in Bowsers favor.
I mean all the notable DK players from Smash 4 have either abaonded him or are no longer active. Basically its looking like another case of Ultimate Bayo

 

[Spinosaurus]

DK also has a crippling issue where a lot of his normals can end up being unsafe on hit at lower percents for whatever reason.

 

[Rizen]

Unsafe normals at low %s is hardly a crippling issue. SSB4 Diddy's Dtilt was unsafe at low %s and it was one of the best moves in the game. You simply use other moves until you tack on a little damage.

Bowser has an actual effective Oos option an "decent " recovery, Better airiel approch options. Overall safer grond buttons and a lot more . He is likely the easiest character to edgeguard thats not Little Mac

It was mentioed before but the overall Buff/Nerf ratio of both Bowser and DK is quite surpisingly went in Bowsers favor.
I mean all the notable DK players from Smash 4 have either abaonded him or are no longer active. Basically its looking like another case of Ultimate Bayo

I'd argue DK's Bair is a better aerial approach option although not having a good Fair does hurt him. DK does have things in his favor. Better air speed although their mobility is practically tied. Better frame data is a big one; this allows DK to do things like chain Uairs/Bairs that bowser can't. DK offstage is scary and he can carry you far offstage with aerials. A better grab game. Better ground burst options. Better boxing. An armored headbutt that buries.

I'm not saying DK's a better character but it's not like Bowser beats him in every area.

 

[Cheryl~]

Unsafe normals at low %s is hardly a crippling issue. SSB4 Diddy's Dtilt was unsafe at low %s and it was one of the best moves in the game. You simply use other moves until you tack on a little damage.

I'd argue DK's Bair is a better aerial approach option although not having a good Fair does hurt him. DK does have things in his favor. Better air speed although their mobility is practically tied. Better frame data is a big one; this allows DK to do things like chain Uairs/Bairs that bowser can't. DK offstage is scary and he can carry you far offstage with aerials. A better grab game. Better ground burst options. Better boxing. An armored headbutt that buries.

I'm not saying DK's a better character but it's not like Bowser beats him in every area.

Diddy's Down-Tilt being unsafe at low percents in Smash 4 isn't even comparable to DK's issue here where all of his tilts (especially F-Tilt and Up-Tilt, both very useful tools for spacing and anti-airing respectively) are unsafe at low percent, meaning that even if the DK tries to space you out he can and will still get punished, and with DK's disadvantage state being so bad it can lead to a ton of damage being racked up on DK. Combine that with DK's tilts having weirdly low kill power in this game compared to Smash 4 and you have a character that has pretty bad grounded options despite having all of the traits that could constitute good grounded options, namely range. This causes DK to have a very linear neutral where he has to approach you with B-Air or risky Dash Attacks, both of which can get punished. I think it's pretty telling that DK's in a pretty bad spot when his top mains from Smash 4 have either left him for greater success (Hikaru) or have quit the game altogether (Konga). The only top rep DK has now is DKWill (very good player, but doesn't travel all too often and his results are merely above average) and that's about it, although there are some other pretty decent DKs in YMCA from SoCal and Dr. A.Ness from Australia still making him work.

 

[Rizen]

Diddy's Down-Tilt being unsafe at low percents in Smash 4 isn't even comparable to DK's issue here where all of his tilts (especially F-Tilt and Up-Tilt, both very useful tools for spacing and anti-airing respectively) are unsafe at low percent, meaning that even if the DK tries to space you out he can and will still get punished, and with DK's disadvantage state being so bad it can lead to a ton of damage being racked up on DK. Combine that with DK's tilts having weirdly low kill power in this game compared to Smash 4 and you have a character that has pretty bad grounded options despite having all of the traits that could constitute good grounded options, namely range. This causes DK to have a very linear neutral where he has to approach you with B-Air or risky Dash Attacks, both of which can get punished. I think it's pretty telling that DK's in a pretty bad spot when his top mains from Smash 4 have either left him for greater success (Hikaru) or have quit the game altogether (Konga). The only top rep DK has now is DKWill (very good player, but doesn't travel all too often and his results are merely above average) and that's about it, although there are some other pretty decent DKs in YMCA from SoCal and Dr. A.Ness from Australia still making him work.

It's so easy to deal damage in this game you're hardly ever at low %s. This is being blow out of proportion. IDK why you're bringing up DK's disadvantage; no one is saying it's anything but terrible. DK got other kill moves like spinning kong and cargo throw. Not all moves have to be kill moves. You know who else lost all their mains? and what Bowser mains stuck around from SSB4? I haven't heard anything about Lord Mix.

 

[Megamang]

You're at low percents at the start of every game. having to win neutral a few times is a disadvantage against a character that gets in and does all their damage and even sets up a kill with a neutral win. Its frustrating to be playing the safe neutral game, call them out, then get rolled because your tilt didn't open them up, it opened you up.


There are ways to work around it, but lets not pretend it isn't a disadvantage.

 

[Rizen]

You're at low percents at the start of every game. having to win neutral a few times is a disadvantage against a character that gets in and does all their damage and even sets up a kill with a neutral win. Its frustrating to be playing the safe neutral game, call them out, then get rolled because your tilt didn't open them up, it opened you up.


There are ways to work around it, but lets not pretend it isn't a disadvantage.

...so don't tilt at the start of the game. Jab, grab, DA, Bair... it's not hard to work around. And honestly this issue has been blow way out of proportion since SSB4 when people were saying Diddy's Dtilt is bad. It's practically a non issue.

YL can't combo Fair1/Nair into Dtilt at low %s so I just don't go for it. It's a minor inconvenience as long as you are aware of the issue.

I'm done talking about this.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah guys, don’t use half your grounded moveset at the start of each opponent stock. Who cares if that leaves a character that already has an iffy neutral with about four usable neutral tools, which are now even more predictable than they already were? It’s your fault for using your attacks when you know they’re unsafe on hit. Man, DK mains are so unreasonable.

Sarcasm aside, you can’t cherrypick moves like YL Fair 1 or Diddy Dtilt and say being negative on hit is fine, when those moves are on characters with a rich neutral and a plethora of other options to poke or start combos at low percents. It’s not as the same as a character like DK having half his grounded moveset essentially removed when his neutral is extremely basic as is. Does it kill the character by itself? No, but that doesn’t mean it’s not still a significant issue. It deserves to be fixed.

Jab can be unsafe on hit too by the way.

 

[SwagGuy99]

's proven to be high tier and he works well with the game's engine where everything is safe and strong reads are important. I do think the gap between him and DK is being exaggerated by LeoN's skill at making reads and spacing and Konga's character crisis. DK's problems in disadvantage are shared by Bowser and you can really see it in game 2 where Umeki 3 stocks LeoN in a short time. Bowser has a lot of obstacles in high and top tier to work around. DK with the right players behind him could make waves too.

As someone who used to think that DK was capable of being a top tier back in Dec./Jan. I have to say that DK's disadvantage is much worse than Bowser's for three reasons: 1. Lack of a good OOS option meaning that he can be pressured in shield much easier 2. DK's fall speed (in comparison to the rest of the cast) is much less than it has been in other Smash games while Bowser's falling speed is much faster allowing him to land easier and 3. DK's up-b is a horrible recovery compared to the rest of the super-heavies with the exception on Ganondorf's.

DK just doesn't have the tools to do well in this game which is sad because he has some good moves in his arsenal and was fun to play in previous Smash games. Now, the most fun part about playing DK is seeing how well your opponent exploits how mediocre of a character you are.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Bowser's disadvantage still has a few good landing mix ups to. You'll notice LeoN uses Dair fairly often to keep his opponents from getting to comfortable. Nair isn't really safe on shield or anything but it hits below him and has amazing reward. Neither are really safe but they command a lot of respect.

Don't get me wrong though, he still gets juggled really hard, especially by swordies who have huge disjointed Uairs and aren't as afraid of his aerials.


And while I know it's everyone gang up on DK day, I think it's worth giving the Kong credit where credit is due. That Bair is really dang good not just as an approaching tool, but as a defensive spacing tool as well. He may not be able to play as hyper aggressive as Bowser but he can sort of wall opponents out until a punish opportunity arises. I don't think it'd take too much to fix his neutral, nor do I think the character is completely hopeless as is.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

It's so easy to deal damage in this game you're hardly ever at low %s. This is being blow out of proportion. IDK why you're bringing up DK's disadvantage; no one is saying it's anything but terrible. DK got other kill moves like spinning kong and cargo throw. Not all moves have to be kill moves. You know who else lost all their mains? and what Bowser mains stuck around from SSB4? I haven't heard anything about Lord Mix.

In all fairness. You cannot really compare Dropped Bowsers to Clouds in Ultiaimate. Smash 4 Cloud was the most commonly mained characters in comand character in the competive seen and everyone and their second-cousins, great-aunt's mailman had him as a pocket.
For Bowser, I could likely count notable Bowser mains on my fingers. For Smash 4 Bowser mains of note Umm. I think there is still DeluxeMenu

 

[Locke 06]

If you don't have a good oos option, or good mobility, you are susceptible to some awful matchups in ultimate.

Characters that can land in your shield and bully the back of your shield safely makes you unable to play the game. Before, if Diddy (or Rob or Pika) dtilted your shield, you could drop shield, turn around, shield the next dtilt, and shield grab. Now, you have no options but to try and parry, roll, or jump. None of these are things anyone wants to do.

Numbers-wise, it should be very obvious how disadvantaged/privileged some characters are in this game. At tournament level, people who want consistent results cannot have a consistent flaw that they cannot overcome. DK's lack of oos, recovery mixups (#buffask), ledge options, and neutral options at low percent are consistent flaws. Note: this is also why Isabelle is bad (outside of neutral options at low percent).

 

[TTTTTsd]

Out of shield is a very weird concept too because truthfully to have PASSABLE OoS all you need is a Frame 9 at slowest option for the front, and an option for behind you that hits low to the ground. Banjo (and a good chunk of other characters) have this, whether its Up+B (Mario), Bair for behind and USmash for front (Banjo), but I think the other thing to note is that you're going to see shields bullied at least once anyways for a couple of reasons:
- The game's base input lag (dissected enough on its own already)
- The, honestly, REALLY low amount of time the game pauses when you hit a shield. Call it shieldfreeze or w/e? Its very brief, momentary, and not very easy to react to, which is why you can still say, pressure Mario's shield, because he'll never perfectly react every time unless he is fully anticipating a move.

This is why stuff like Banjo Ftilt can go unpunished on block despite being like -12. Its over so fast that by the time you're priming an OoS option they're already safe.

This is also how MKLeo gets away with so many rising aerials on block here and there, its just the speed and nature of how the game works. Almost every character operates on pressure that's "minus", but since the option tree is so huge and the interaction is so brief, you can slip a lot of things by.

That being said if you don't have a forward facing OoS at all you are factually in a lot worse of a position.

Like as an example, Chrom's Fair on block is, if you hit it 1 frame before you land, -4. Usually this isn't happening so its actually usually around -6/-7 in practice (and this is discounting move staling on block which also plays a part) but even when poorly spaced he can get away with it because the window is so small and you have to actively anticipate it happening.

Abuse the mechanics!

Oh and one more thing because I can. The other important thing about all of these aerials being as minus as they are is that while they might be "safe", depending on the character they are only safe if the character backs off and/or doesn't press a button again, or spotdodges/shields, all of which come with their own answers and decision trees. It's complicated! Hence, you can operate even with PASSABLE OoS because of how nebulous frame advantage is in this game.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

If you retire because your favorite character isn't good, then you never were really competing at the game, this isn't a callout to konga he probably doesn't enjoy the game enough to get a new main, so that tweet is like closing a chapter and inform friends or fans who probably still has expectations in him in this game that he can't fulfill these expectations and he wants to meve on, I will say you will see more of this in the future probably at the end of the year.

 

[|RK|]

If you retire because your favorite character isn't good, then you never were really competing at the game, this isn't a callout to konga he probably doesn't enjoy the game enough to get a new main, so that tweet is like closing a chapter and inform friends or fans who probably still has expectations in him in this game that he can't fulfill these expectations and he wants to meve on, I will say you will see more of this in the future probably at the end of the year.

It's Smash, dude. Many people view the game through the lens of their favorite character or characters.

That's one reason you'll find many players in a character crisis, no matter how good they are.

 

[Rizen]

Sarcasm aside, you can’t cherrypick moves like YL Fair 1 or Diddy Dtilt and say being negative on hit is fine, when those moves are on characters with a rich neutral and a plethora of other options to poke or start combos at low percents. It’s not as the same as a character like DK having half his grounded moveset essentially removed when his neutral is extremely basic as is. Does it kill the character by itself? No, but that doesn’t mean it’s not still a significant issue. It deserves to be fixed.

Jab can be unsafe on hit too by the way.

DK's not supposed to have a "rich neutral" like YL or Diddy. He's a super heavy who wins few interactions but gets a lot out of it. That's his archetype. And it's not hard to deal a little damage in this game by DK or anyone. There's a reason we use 3 stocks; games go by fast. Watch any DK video. The first one I found on youtube has Masta Mario at 68% in 15 seconds.

DK's real issue is his disadvantage.

And while I know it's everyone gang up on DK day, I think it's worth giving the Kong credit where credit is due. That Bair is really dang good not just as an approaching tool, but as a defensive spacing tool as well. He may not be able to play as hyper aggressive as Bowser but he can sort of wall opponents out until a punish opportunity arises. I don't think it'd take too much to fix his neutral, nor do I think the character is completely hopeless as is.

Thank you for being reasonable. Konga complains while having a character crisis and suddenly everyone's on board the DK sucks train. DK definitely has things going for him.

But you know what? I don't blame Konga at all. I've had a character crisis with YL and he's high tier (IMO). It's easy to have a character crisis in this game, there are so many MUs and varying play styles within them. If you don't play a top tier it's hard to keep your head above water. Even lower ranked characters can be a struggle. I played a really good Lucas recently who walled me with big hitbubbles and didn't know what to do and got 3 stocked. I brought it back to a last stock high % situation the next game. You really can't sleep on anyone.

 

[|RK|]

DK has been meh before Konga said. Bowser is pretty head and shoulders above DK.

It's not just disadvantage (but that's key when his recovery is worse than Bowser's and his OOS is lacking), but he also doesn't pose enough of a threat in neutral.

His bair is good, but that's one move. His combos are okay, and his kill confirms are situational.

DK needs a lot of something more... He doesn't have it yet, though.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I always felt like Rosalina was underrated; even without Dabuz, Kirihara has had some pretty consistent success with the character in Japan, even if he isn't quite that active XD

Don't forget Homika, a French Rosa player who can snatch some games from Glutonny and forcing him to go Wario instead of his secondaries. I think he's also up there but with Glutonny (and Meru) as competition, it's hard to actually shine.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Out of shield is a very weird concept too because truthfully to have PASSABLE OoS all you need is a Frame 9 at slowest option for the front, and an option for behind you that hits low to the ground. Banjo (and a good chunk of other characters) have this, whether its Up+B (Mario), Bair for behind and USmash for front (Banjo), but I think the other thing to note is that you're going to see shields bullied at least once anyways for a couple of reasons:
- The game's base input lag (dissected enough on its own already)
- The, honestly, REALLY low amount of time the game pauses when you hit a shield. Call it shieldfreeze or w/e? Its very brief, momentary, and not very easy to react to, which is why you can still say, pressure Mario's shield, because he'll never perfectly react every time unless he is fully anticipating a move.

This is why stuff like Banjo Ftilt can go unpunished on block despite being like -12. Its over so fast that by the time you're priming an OoS option they're already safe.

This is also how MKLeo gets away with so many rising aerials on block here and there, its just the speed and nature of how the game works. Almost every character operates on pressure that's "minus", but since the option tree is so huge and the interaction is so brief, you can slip a lot of things by.

That being said if you don't have a forward facing OoS at all you are factually in a lot worse of a position.

Like as an example, Chrom's Fair on block is, if you hit it 1 frame before you land, -4. Usually this isn't happening so its actually usually around -6/-7 in practice (and this is discounting move staling on block which also plays a part) but even when poorly spaced he can get away with it because the window is so small and you have to actively anticipate it happening.

Abuse the mechanics!

Oh and one more thing because I can. The other important thing about all of these aerials being as minus as they are is that while they might be "safe", depending on the character they are only safe if the character backs off and/or doesn't press a button again, or spotdodges/shields, all of which come with their own answers and decision trees. It's complicated! Hence, you can operate even with PASSABLE OoS because of how nebulous frame advantage is in this game.

One thing that about these "safe on shield" moves that needs to be iterated is staling. Staling can completely change up the move's safety and ability if it is used too frequently. Automatically speaking, every move becomes -1 worse after hitting with a fresh move...so say Banjo's -12 F-Tilt becomes -13, or Chrom's F-Air now becomes -5 (spotdodge/roll potential now for everyone). It can make or break a move and you/your opponent's options just as much as a move staling too much to KO, it's just that with how fast-paced the match can be, it is admittedly difficult to track sometimes.

I always felt like Rosalina was underrated; even without Dabuz, Kirihara has had some pretty consistent success with the character in Japan, even if he isn't quite that active XD

The thing about Rosalina is that she's one of the few characters in the game that have input-reliant tech that pushes her and Luma to the next level. I'm mainly talking about Dash Attack - Attack Cancel. With how Luma soldiers on and does a Dash Attack from nearly half the stage away, and how Dabuz can even create a conversion with a Lunar Landing, it is pivotal knowing how to play maestro with Luma.

She has things going against her moreso than 4: namely she's even more vulnerable without Luma, and getting KOs and mileage off of a singular opening is a little tougher, and that her grabs yield generally less reward [still good grab range], but a lot of her attributes have been upgraded or sidegraded. Good OoS options (F8 U-Smash and B-Air w/ Luma support), functioning tilts that are able to do what they need to do (F6 Dash Attack is still great, F7 long F-Tilt that grants stage control, F5 D-Tilt that is a quick whiff punish option, and Luma helps, and that F7 U-Tilt that is an anti-air of anti-airs), ridiculous edgeguarding and ledgeguarding thanks to being floaty and Luma, respectively, her ability to control stage with Luma being more of a trooper and go-getter thanks to how he behaves and ACs, and the ability to disengage projectiles at pointswith Luma, Star Bits, or Gravitational Pull. Rosalina is going to be very interesting to watch as the meta progresses, especially with MUs.

 

[Minordeth]

Two huge, tier-disparity-illuminating differences between DK and Bowser that have been somewhat touched on:

1.) You don’t want to miss-space an aerial or poke on Bowser’s shield. Whirling fortress is frame 6, does a decent amount of damage, and he can move around while using it. In addition, he can do Flying Slam OoS and catch a decent portion of the cast, or an aerial approach.

DK has Bair. And Nair. And Grab. All are okay, but they aren’t going to make you dance around his shield nearly as hard as Bowser. If you hit Bowser’s shield past 100%, there’s a real possibility you will die.

2.) Bowser can force uncertainty in committing to an option. As mentioned before, Bowser can always fake a Fair and go for Flying Slam. But it goes deeper than this. Say you have Bowser in a juggle situation.

He can attempt to do the normal landing options (FF Airdodge, DAD, etc) or, he can use Dair aggressively. Or! He can condition you to shield with Dair, and use Bowser Bomb.

Yeah, Bowser can get punished for all these options. But, literally more than any other character in the game, Bowser can deal with being punished.

Ultimately, Bowser has much more powerful options to condition his opponent, even when he is in disadvantage. And that versatility in conditioning, in neutral, advantage, and disadvantage is what makes Bowser a better character than DK, even though DK’s advantage state is quite good.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I think what we can easily say with most of these posts is something most Smash players have already known for a long time:

A predictable fighter is a beaten fighter.
​

Being predictable in a game where reads are not just a suggestion, they're the rule means that having a predictable gameplan means you're going to lose, badly. Even top tiers with a single go-to tool have different situations they can use them in so as not to be as predictable. Unpredictability has a quality all it's own, that's why low-tiers often have linear and predictable moves that can only be used in specific situations while the high and top tiers are more versatile.

 

[Planty]

I think DK still kills pretty early and succeeds at being an offensive powerhouse, which seemed to be the gameplan-when DK touches you you definitely take a ton of damage. The issue is that everyone deals quite a bit of damage.

The defensive changes, more than anything, are the biggest detriment to the character. Because everyone outputs so much damage, being able to escape from bad situations on shield and avoid juggles is so crucial, and DK can't do anything in those situations apart from reset to ledge and try again. The only characters he does well against are those whose defense is almost as bad as his () where one good hit means he can continue rolling you to death. The issue is that they also get to do the same.

The lack of a good forward facing aerial is also a huge liability, and it has been for several games now. It significantly weakens both his approach and air-to-air game and leaves him prone to getting jumped in on easily.

______________________________________________________________________

I want to talk about , because while the character is unpopular I think when Luma is active her offensive and neutral control is among the strongest in the game-the only real issue being that Luma is now very often inactive unless Rosa is winning handily.

has a lot of good stuff like her juggling and edgeguarding but struggles greatly in a lot of other things. She's an interesting case in that she does fairly well against most of the cast, but loses to nearly the entirety of top and high tier, for one reason or another. Personally, I wouldn't say that's too good of a character.

She's struggled with swords ever since Smash 4 and although the hype around them has died down, sword fighters are still popular. Swords just have the ability to safely dispatch Luma and they force Rosa to play a bait and punish game that she'll often lose.

Projectiles, despite common perception, are very good against Rosa. Luma meat shield is unreliable at best and if Luma gets hit, he'll usually go into tumble, forcing Rosa to back off for a second or two until he recovers. Since he tumbles so easily, Rosalina can't even shield projectiles because Luma can't actually block anything, so he takes damage and knockback. This forces Rosa to either weave around projectiles (big floaty body and weaving around projectiles don't mix very well) or she has to use gravitational pull, which is amazingly overrated. It's a bandage for her inability to block projectiles (super good against items though because she'll automatically grab them. If they're explosive like Snake grenade, it evens adds a second to the explosion timer.)

Rosalina also struggles from her inability to kill. Despite being known for janky low percent kills in Smash 4, it's not uncommon for opponents to live upwards of 150% because it's just so hard to land a kill move, especially with Luma sometimes not being available to add some extra punch.

OoS game is also poor, despite what was posted a little earlier by SapphSabre777 . Frame 9 U-smash is mediocre at best and only hits in front. Rising Bair whiffs on most of the cast, especially when Luma is knocked away (which happens very often when your shield is hit.) Frame 6 grab helps alleviate the OoS issues, but ultimately she's limited in that department by her lack of solid aerial options OoS.

Her viability with a dead Luma is well understood as being very poor, so I won't speak too much on that. If Solo Rosalina was her own character, she would be the absolute worst character in the game with not a single matchup that wasn't losing.

You may see Rosalina as being a dominant neutral force, and she often does have an advantage there in many matchups. However, against most of top and high tier, she just can't keep up and will often get out-neutralled too. She loses to Joker, Snake, the Rats, Pokemon Trainer, Peach, Wolf, Palutena, Olimar, Wario, ZSS, and all the swords, among others. Despite doing well against most of mid and low tier, is undoubtedly a low tier herself.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

DK has been meh before Konga said. Bowser is pretty head and shoulders above DK.

It's not just disadvantage (but that's key when his recovery is worse than Bowser's and his OOS is lacking), but he also doesn't pose enough of a threat in neutral.

His bair is good, but that's one move. His combos are okay, and his kill confirms are situational.

DK needs a lot of something more... He doesn't have it yet, though.

I'm perfectly happy if DK remains bad. The way he's designed in this game is pretty silly, I'm not sure I want to live in a world where we have that character + less situational confirms and a good neutral.

 

[SwagGuy99]

You may see Rosalina as being a dominant neutral force, and she often does have an advantage there in many matchups. However, against most of top and high tier, she just can't keep up and will often get out-neutralled too. She loses to Joker, Snake, the Rats, Pokemon Trainer, Peach, Wolf, Palutena, Olimar, Wario, ZSS, and all the swords, among others. Despite doing well against most of mid and low tier, is undoubtedly a low tier herself.

I will point out that she probably goes even with or wins against Mario due to her attack range (and Luma) being good enough to stop his approach and it makes it hard for him to land a hit sometimes.

Also, do you think she loses to Greninja and Fox as well? I was curious since they weren't listed there in your list and I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning for them if you do think they lose.

 

[bc1910]

I will point out that she probably goes even with or wins against Mario due to her attack range (and Luma) being good enough to stop his approach and it makes it hard for him to land a hit sometimes.

Also, do you think she loses to Greninja and Fox as well? I was curious since they weren't listed there in your list and I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning for them if you do think they lose.

I’m not the OP, but Gren/Rosa is pretty bad for her in my experience. Everything Gren wants do aggressively on the ground sweeps Luma away from Rosa. Her oos is poor as others have touched upon so crossup dash attack is very safe on Rosa, allowing Gren safe pressure between this and his aerials. Shurikens are annoying for Rosa to deal with due to her size and floaty hops, and they aren’t really worth GP-ing unless you know he’s going to spam them since they recover quick enough for him to run and punish the endlag of GP from most distances.

Bear in mind it was probably even by the end of Smash 4, Gren has been buffed, Rosa has been nerfed and Ult’s mechanics suit Gren infinitely better than Rosa. I’m too lazy to get the link but the House of 3000 YouTube channel has a recent match between Venia and Dabuz’s Rosa that you might be interested in.

I would think Fox is pretty bad for Rosa for similar reasons in terms of dealing with his (arguably even better) offensive game. However, Rosa at least outranges Fox and he has fewer recovery mixups than Gren so he can be more readily edgeguarded. Whilst my gut instinct would say Rosa still loses, this seems closer to even on paper.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Rosalina has the same syndrome as DH this game. She has amazing tools to control neutral and spacr. But just does not have the ability to take stock quickly or consistently enough. You can do big galaxy brain tactics and techniques to control and dominate the pace of the match...unt your Opponent is almost at 200% and your still having problems finishing the stock. Then go from controlling the match to playing catch-up once they get the right opening or read.

A lot of top-tier characters have the ability to both crazy fast damage with just one or two confirms and have tools that have moves/setups that can kill at pretty early or at least consistent precents i.e . Playing such charactere as Rosa must be like trying to climb a mountian.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

The game has been out for months, and I still love
He's got to be one of the best edge-guarders in this game. Two spikes, PK Freeze, and PK Thunder. Hell, PK Thunder can gimp like 70% of the roster's recoveries if you angle it right but it works especially well on heavyweights, the Belmonts, main FE swordies, and Little Mac.

 

[Planty]

I will point out that she probably goes even with or wins against Mario due to her attack range (and Luma) being good enough to stop his approach and it makes it hard for him to land a hit sometimes.

Also, do you think she loses to Greninja and Fox as well? I was curious since they weren't listed there in your list and I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning for them if you do think they lose.

bc1910 Already gave a good response on the matchup between Rosa and Greninja, so I'll respond to the Fox bit.

It actually plays pretty similarly to the MU in Smash 4 (where it was slightly winning for Rosa). Rosa plays very very patient and tries to keep some distance to Fox as she attempts to call out jump ins or dash attacks. Conversely, Fox is trying to bait a reaction with his mobility and capitalizing.

Once either one wins neutral, the other just explodes. They both murder each other in advantage and with the light weight, they both die early.

As a whole, it's probably in Fox's favour, but it's volatile enough that a few good calls from Rosa and she'll take the game.

 

[SwagGuy99]

The game has been out for months, and I still love
He's got to be one of the best edge-guarders in this game. Two spikes, PK Freeze, and PK Thunder. Hell, PK Thunder can gimp like 70% of the roster's recoveries if you angle it right but it works especially well on heavyweights, the Belmonts, main FE swordies, and Little Mac.

Yeah, Lucas is one of those relatively unexplored characters that can really go places under the proper circumstances. If a top player were to pick him up, I feel like others would follow.

His hitboxes are really good and are really only outranged by characters with a larger hurtbox (Snake, DK) or characters with a Melee weapon (Belmonts, Marcina, DDD).

PK Fire is still the all-around good move it was in Smash 4.

His edgeguarding might be the best in the game. Z-air, f-air, b-air (sweetspotted or sour-spotted), d-air, n-air, PSI Magnet, PK Thunder, PK Freeze, and PK Fire are all great edgeguarding options and allow Lucas to edgeguard safely from a distance while still having good options to edgeguard at close range as well.

Lucas's recovery (while not nearly as notable as his edgeguarding) is still good. PK Thunder is significantly better than Ness's due to it's distance, ability to pass through opponents, and damage output (if it hits). Z-air, double jump, and air dodge give Lucas some good mix-ups when recovering a bit closer to the stage as well.

Z-air chains across the stage are dumb but effective.

Lucas probably has the best set of kill throws in the game with back-throw and f-throw killing below 150% at the ledge and up-throw killing below 200% as well if I'm not mistaken.

Lucas's combo game (while still being nerfed from Smash 4) is still decent with his aerials and grounded moves chaining into one another quite easily.

If Lucas had more range and speed, he'd be a much scarier character but as it stands, I think that Lucas has a place in the meta, someone just needs to pick him up to make people more aware of where that place is.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Yeah, Lucas is one of those relatively unexplored characters that can really go places under the proper circumstances. If a top player were to pick him up, I feel like others would follow.

His hitboxes are really good and are really only outranged by characters with a larger hurtbox (Snake, DK) or characters with a Melee weapon (Belmonts, Marcina, DDD).

PK Fire is still the all-around good move it was in Smash 4.

His edgeguarding might be the best in the game. Z-air, f-air, b-air (sweetspotted or sour-spotted), d-air, n-air, PSI Magnet, PK Thunder, PK Freeze, and PK Fire are all great edgeguarding options and allow Lucas to edgeguard safely from a distance while still having good options to edgeguard at close range as well.

Lucas's recovery (while not nearly as notable as his edgeguarding) is still good. PK Thunder is significantly better than Ness's due to it's distance, ability to pass through opponents, and damage output (if it hits). Z-air, double jump, and air dodge give Lucas some good mix-ups when recovering a bit closer to the stage as well.

Z-air chains across the stage are dumb but effective.

Lucas probably has the best set of kill throws in the game with back-throw and f-throw killing below 150% at the ledge and up-throw killing below 200% as well if I'm not mistaken.

Lucas's combo game (while still being nerfed from Smash 4) is still decent with his aerials and grounded moves chaining into one another quite easily.

If Lucas had more range and speed, he'd be a much scarier character but as it stands, I think that Lucas has a place in the meta, someone just needs to pick him up to make people more aware of where that place is.

I completely agree. I will say that Lucas is far from being top-tier. Some of his hitboxes are really small which makes his tilts very situational compared to someone like Mewtwo who can use tilts regularly to attack, and Lucas does have some questionable frame data. But aside from these weaknesses, it's amazing that 90% of his moveset can be effective for edge-guarding, combined with his floatiness and great recovery which doesn't make edge-guarding risky at all.

I feel like most people don't like Lucas because he's stereotyped as a worse version of Ness, and the logic typically goes "why play Lucas when Ness is in the game?" But the thing is, Lucas has strengths that Ness lacks and that makes his character completely separate and viable. You can easily gimp Ness' recovery by going in front of it because he can't pass through his opponents, so wherever he hits an opponent, the recovery stops and he freefalls. Also, Ness lacks Rope Snake, and a tether recovery is one of Lucas' best aspects in my opinion.

I will say that yes, since Ness' playstyle is typically more aggressive and combo-inducing, he'd probably fair better in tournaments than Lucas. But that doesn't mean Lucas is bottom like most tier lists place him. I feel like the majority of the Smash community is just ignorant when it comes to Lucas. There's no way a character with so many creative options would be bottom tier, but that's just my opinion. Perhaps I'm biased.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Rosalina has the same syndrome as DH this game. She has amazing tools to control neutral and spacr. But just does not have the ability to take stock quickly or consistently enough. You can do big galaxy brain tactics and techniques to control and dominate the pace of the match...unt your Opponent is almost at 200% and your still having problems finishing the stock. Then go from controlling the match to playing catch-up once they get the right opening or read.

A lot of top-tier characters have the ability to both crazy fast damage with just one or two confirms and have tools that have moves/setups that can kill at pretty early or at least consistent precents i.e . Playing such charactere as Rosa must be like trying to climb a mountian.

OTOH in my (admittedly limited) experience, Rosalina has a pretty good edgeguarding game. And by edgeguarding, I don't just mean standing at ledge trying to 2-frame or some sort of milquetoast runoff aerial, but full-fledged jump-off-the-stage air-to-air edgeguarding. She has 3 useful aerials for the purpose (fair, bair, dair) and is floaty AF so she can actually sort of linger offstage a lot longer than, say, Joker can. And her recovery is hella long-ranged so she can go pretty deep and still make it back without too much worry.

Edgeguarding in general is one of those aspects of the game that I believe is underdeveloped (or maybe just underappreciated?) right now. Some recoveries are too massive to get away with anything less than knocking them into the blast zone, but others only need to be hit away just far enough that they can't reach the ledge.