Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Spoiler: Media

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— Minik (@Mini_k250) July 31, 2019

Whelp.
This broke a whole shield and fSmash killed at 0%.
This Ganon obviously isn't good, but the fact it gets rid of a full shield is kinda obnoxious.

Keep in mind that this was incredibly lucky. Psych Up isn't that uncommon, but the insta-shield break relied on both it and a Mega Mushroom from Hocus Pocus (Which is decently rare). That and he got a critical hit, and Thwak got an insta-kill at a low percent which I'd imagine is also pretty rare.

Well that's not what I wanted to hear. Though I appreciate the answers.

Just another bit of worry added to the concern I already had about Megaman's future.

It doesn't mean the matchup is a total wash though. If you can keep the pressure on Hero then he will have a tough time getting anything from Command Selection let alone Bounce specifically. And also, one matchup isn't going to ruin a character.

 

[$.A.F.]

So um.......Kazap kills fox at ledge at 15 with no di and like 20 something I’m assuming with it. Can we talk about that?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So um.......Kazap kills fox at ledge at 15 with no di and like 20 something I’m assuming with it. Can we talk about that?

Yeah, If you manage to land Kazap it will probably kill. It does waste quite a lot of MP on a whiff so you really have to know it will hit. I can still see it being a problem though considering its humongous hitbox.

 

[$.A.F.]

Yeah, If you manage to land Kazap it will probably kill. It does waste quite a lot of MP on a whiff so you really have to know it will hit. I can still see it being a problem though considering its humongous hitbox.

It’s like Roy side b on crack steroids and anything else you can find. If it weren’t slow it would inarguably be the best move in the game without question. As it is now, it’s jank, but there’s far worse imo. Still....15

 

[The_Bookworm]

So about the Pit buffs...

Back air previously had 11 frames of landing lag. It now has 8 frames of landing lag (one frame less landing lag than Ike's nair).
Oh and he now has a frame 4 jab instead of a frame 5 jab.

Yeah... I am liking these buffs.

 

[Thinkaman]

Mega Man can also still grab Hero + there's always usmash, and the uptime on Bounce is being overstated.

Only Sonic can run over Isabelle's trap now, as God intended.

All the buffs matter a decent amount, more than many previous sets of buffs, except maybe Ridley. All those fixes are welcome, but skeptical it moves his needle.

I don't have time to deconstruct bad takes about RNG being the devil so I won't.

Hero is a delight, a wonderful character prone to inducing grins and testing new skills.

Too bad he kinda sucks. Bad disadvantage/recovery, bad aerial neutral, bad oos, and just a lot of bad tools.

He's not hopeless though. People are right that neutral-b is key, but I feel like side-b is overlooked. It's not mp efficient given the other things he wants to do, but that's a lot of damage on great range and workable speed.

Bounce is great but overrated. It cannot be used on reaction or even a read, and this is so much of the value of other reflectors. Projectile characters are free to harass you 100% while it's not up--unlike every other special reflector in the game.

Accelerightweight is where it's at. It fixes his problems besides OoS. Listen to Emblem Lord.

Magic Smart Bomb is a good tool but being viewed in a vacuum and being highly overrated. It disables all of Hero's good moves and makes his recovery the worst in the game.

Hocus Pocus is hilarious but not worth discussing. It's a very bad move, as it should be.

 

[ON-2]

Well that's not what I wanted to hear. Though I appreciate the answers.

Just another bit of worry added to the concern I already had about Megaman's future.

I'll admit this is all theorycrafting on my end but even if Hero gets Bounce it's not all over for Megaman. You can see him select the move for starters so you have time to prepare. Once he gets bounce Megaman can try cheesing him out with Rush shenanigans and just staying away from him. Finally if Hero has bounce up this means that the Megaman doesn't have to worry about his other specials until Hero changes. Gotta watch out for flame spell still though.

When Hero doesn't have Bounce available Megaman will have an easier time I feel. Megaman doesn't have to go into range of Hero's sword and can harass him from a distance.

I haven't gotten a chance to play this match up though so I might be very wrong. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Anomika]

Someone asked for Hero's frame data, and KuroganeHammer actually got the majority of the info for that character: http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Hero

It seems like that the disadvantage of his aerials on shield seem pretty alright, if spaced well.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I absolutely adore the Hero, I don't think he's LEL BUSTED OP PLZ NERF but I don't think he can be considered mid tier either. His jank factor is absurdly high, and he's a threat to your stock literally all the time. You're never safe from this monster's RNG chicanery, and despite his bad frame data and eh disadvantage I don't think he'll have trouble carving out a spot in at least high tier or above once optimized and developed. He's an absolute blast to play, though, his playstyle alone has made me stop paying attention to Street Fighter for a bit to focus on Smash again, I love this character to death and they are so much fun to play in all manner of settings.

Mewtwo's changes seem like a big deal. The tail hurtbox being made smaller on top of the other buffs seems like it'll be hard to consider the Shadow Cat lower than high tier now, Mewtwo has quite a bit going for him.. though he's still too flawed for the top of the tier list overall.

PT got some nerfs that I could see hurting them a little, but not a ton.

Overall, besides the Hero and Mewtwo's buffs / PT's nerfs, nothing big and meta defining dropped this patch imo.

 

[Nate1080]

Moves seem pretty unsafe on shield, especially aerials. Most hits on shield are free grabs onto Hero from my experience, or even free stocks for some characters (Bowser, DK).

His forward smash on shield does have a lot of shield push though.

 

[VodkaHaze]

I think my eureka moment of the day is we've been asking the wrong question about Hero.
The question shouldn't be "Is Hero broken?" nor should it be "should we allow any RNG?"
The question should be "Is Hero's RNG significant in determining the outcome of matches?"

 

[Lacrimosa]

I think my eureka moment of the day is we've been asking the wrong question about Hero.
The question shouldn't be "Is Hero broken?" nor should it be "should we allow any RNG?"
The question should be "Is Hero's RNG significant in determining the outcome of matches?"

We won't know this until Smash Con.

 

[Nate1080]

Hero feels like Ike to me, with a shorter sword range, faster ground speed, and magic.

Therefore, people calling Hero bad, almost feels like people calling Ike bad to me. And I don’t think Ike is a bad character, and I think people can agree with that. I think people expected more and are disappointed that he isn’t crazy busted out the gate.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Regardless on how good the Hero ends up being. Facing him kinda feels like going vs only suddenly having full Waft available at random instead of a 90 sec charge. You are just... kind on edge knowing make a mistake Hero can just kill you at like 40% or possibly lower.


The MU is going to be utterly nuts. Pichu has all the tools to totally harass and overwhelm Hero, but things like Crit Smashes and many of his Down-B specials will kill her digustingly early if Hero gets good RNG

 

[$.A.F.]

Hero feels like Ike to me, with a shorter sword range, faster ground speed, and magic.

Therefore, people calling Hero bad, almost feels like people calling Ike bad to me. And I don’t think Ike is a bad character, and I think people can agree with that. I think people expected more and are disappointed that he isn’t crazy busted out the gate.

He doesn’t play like Ike whatsoever. Even without magic they have overall two even slightly similar aerials which only one of you want to use in neutral and that one is a staple of sword fighters as a whole being fair. The spike Dair is similar but nowhere close to a staple in the play style of either. Up air Nair and Bair along with tilts are very different for each character respectively. This especially is prevalent with Nair not being nearly as good for the Hero. Up air is also significantly worse along with his tilt bar up tilt.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Hero is top tier, his specials are so good and some of the down-B specials are pretty busted, his Smash attacks can crit and kill stupidly early, and aside from that his normals don't seem terrible, with many good kill moves aside from. Zoom means edgeguarding him will always be risky since he could get lucky and Zoom and then edgeguard/ledgetrap you for the trouble, many of the buffs are incredibly strong and they stack, some of his down-B moves are really situationally strong too, and his neutral-B and side-B seem strong as well. I guess he could be high tier but I'm thinking top tier if mastered, hard to play optimally though since you need to be good at adapting with down-B.

 

[Nate1080]

He doesn’t play like Ike whatsoever. Even without magic they have overall two even slightly similar aerials which only one of you want to use in neutral and that one is a staple of sword fighters as a whole being fair. The spike Dair is similar but nowhere close to a staple in the play style of either. Up air Nair and Bair along with tilts are very different for each character respectively. This especially is prevalent with Nair not being nearly as good for the Hero. Up air is also significantly worse along with his tilt bar up tilt.

You missed my point entirely.

He’s a laggy swordsman like Ike. His aerials and smashes feel heavy and laggy like Ike’s.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I think Hero is top tier, his specials are so good and some of the down-B specials are pretty busted, his Smash attacks can crit and kill stupidly early, and aside from that his normals don't seem terrible, with many good kill moves aside from. Zoom means edgeguarding him will always be risky since he could get lucky and Zoom and then edgeguard/ledgetrap you for the trouble, many of the buffs are incredibly strong and they stack, some of his down-B moves are really situationally strong too, and his neutral-B and side-B seem strong as well. I guess he could be high tier but I'm thinking top tier if mastered, hard to play optimally though since you need to be good at adapting with down-B.

His F-Smash seems pretty good and is looking to be his go-to punish option. Its not really fast but it has a lot of range, covers a good angle above him if you an read a jump in and LORD is it powerful even without getting a crit. Its almost like Roy's F-Smash without a sourspot. lol

 

[$.A.F.]

You missed my point entirely.

He’s a laggy swordsman like Ike. His aerials and smashes feel heavy and laggy like Ike’s.

Your point was that they play similarly when they don’t. You said that for all intents and purposes they played the same aside from specials. I explained why that wasn’t true. Ike has grab combos and his godly Nair without specials which are enough to make him better alone. Not to mention his great juggling with his far better up air and better grounded buttons. Hero doesn’t have that and a lot of moves are very different. You’re basically comparing apples to red oranges. This is like saying Marth is about as good as Roy because they’re fast swordies with similar moves

 

[Thinkaman]

Alpha Ike over here doing nairs to literally anything all day while beta Hero can sometimes convert his microscopic uair into something else.

Every other swordsman is embarrassed on behalf of Hero's normals. They aren't why you play the character. It's like comparing Samus to Mario.

 

[B_Burg]

It doesn't mean the matchup is a total wash though. If you can keep the pressure on Hero then he will have a tough time getting anything from Command Selection let alone Bounce specifically. And also, one matchup isn't going to ruin a character.

I'm aware that bounce alone isn't enough to completely dictate the matchup, but it's so specifically strong against Mega compared to other projectile users it's something I think will be potentially troubling. I also know that one matchup won't ruin the character, but as I said, it's just another thing that could potentially be adding to a list of concerns I already have.

Not that I know everything about the character to begin with, my concerns may not amount to much by the end of the balance updates either way.

Mega Man can also still grab Hero + there's always usmash, and the uptime on Bounce is being overstated.

Sure, he can also down smash. But that doesn't really mean he is going to have great options in any given situation. Especially since keeping people guessing is, at least in my estimation, a really important part of Megaman's gameplan, which is a lot harder to do when your options get so limited.

One thing I've been thinking about keeping Hero on his toes though, is using leaf shield to get a few quick scratches in and tossing it away for the last hit, though that would be pretty situational and could easily get you punished as well.

All that said, maybe I should be concerning myself more with Hero's other properties rather than some situational Bounce. It's all just theory crafting at this stage anyway, so I'll try to keep from talking about it too much more outside of this post until a bit more time has passed. For now I'll have to hop into some matches and see how things go.

I'll admit this is all theorycrafting on my end but even if Hero gets Bounce it's not all over for Megaman. You can see him select the move for starters so you have time to prepare. Once he gets bounce Megaman can try cheesing him out with Rush shenanigans and just staying away from him. Finally if Hero has bounce up this means that the Megaman doesn't have to worry about his other specials until Hero changes. Gotta watch out for flame spell still though.

When Hero doesn't have Bounce available Megaman will have an easier time I feel. Megaman doesn't have to go into range of Hero's sword and can harass him from a distance.

I haven't gotten a chance to play this match up though so I might be very wrong. Take it with a grain of salt.

I'm hopeful Megaman has the advantage in the matchup without Bounce, otherwise it would really be a nightmare fight.

Running away might work from the sound of Hero's speed. I'm also hoping Megaman's ledge guarding options can help swing things in his favor. Even with bounce up, back air can situational be a good guarding tool, though of course hard knuckle and metal blade are out.

 

[DelugeFGC]

The Hero still has his shield, which does interfere with Megaman's ability to output chip damage in neutral. Not to a significant degree, no, but I feel it's not worth completely discounting either. Even without Bounce, the passive shield effect is still in play.

 

[Lacrimosa]

The Hero still has his shield, which does interfere with Megaman's ability to output chip damage in neutral. Not to a significant degree, no, but I feel it's not worth completely discounting either. Even without Bounce, the passive shield effect is still in play.

Does the shield actually effect the Link vs. MegaMan MU really that much?

 

[DelugeFGC]

Does the shield actually effect the Link vs. MegaMan MU really that much?

I don't know, but it's another factor on top of Bounce.

MM isn't used that often, even as a counterpick against characters he does well against, so it's hard to say.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I don't know, but it's another factor on top of Bounce.

MM isn't used that often, even as a counterpick against characters he does well against, so it's hard to say.

What is all this about MM not being used that often coming from? MM is still fairly popular in the casual and competitive scene. With players like Kameme,, Yeti Peanbut and ScaTT even if he uses Snake more often now.

dont forget Kameme won Umebura Major 2019 using mostly MM, The , well one of the Blue Bombers in this game is still very relevant pick

 

[ON-2]

Does the shield actually effect the Link vs. MegaMan MU really that much?

From my experience nah. It's kinda annoying but Link to stay still or move slowly for the shield to work. With all the projectiles MM has it isn't a big deal.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I tried playing Hero earlier. It is, right now, taking some time getting use to his moveset. The timing of his side special is weird, I must read all the command menus quickly, and his moves (especially aerials) feel so slow.

It is going to hard getting to the trend of the character. I want to say that he is probably mid tier right now, but I guess time will tell.

Still, people are going all K. Rool and Belmonts with the character right now in terms of early viewpoints. lol

 

[Thinkaman]

Mega Man is also one of the few characters who imo is advantageous against all three PT Pokemon, which is an increasingly relevant rarity.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I really don’t see Bounce being that oppressive to most projectile heavy characters unless you can stack them. Does it stack? If not there is plenty of down time between when Hero can safely cast bounce provided he isn’t getting lucky to roll it each then he pulls the menu up. Take Link for example, if you are actively throwing boomerangs, firing arrows and positioning yourself in a general vicinity of Hero he’s not going to have the time needed to not only look at his menu (commands are always a random order so you have to take your eyes off the opponent even for a moment to look) but also try to keep track of the boomerang on its way back coming from behind you as well as Link himself in a distance he can hit you for leaving yourself open trying to navigate the menu.

These situations can occur fairly often enough that without good RNG I don’t see Hero being able to find time to actually fish for Bounce against most projectile characters. He can look for it when he’s launched his opponent but then he’s taking time away he could be using to press advantage or setup a ledge guard to look for Bounce.

I imagine Hero is going to love larger stages such as Town and City or Kalos so he has platforms and space to work with so he can reliably cast bounces against those characters. Granted if he is able to get his bounces off projectile characters are going to have a rough time some worse than others.

 

[B_Burg]

To all those asking about how the shield is in Megaman's matchup, in the limited time I spent against the character the shield is actually more effective than Link's at dealing with Metal Blade. Against Link, the blade would clank and then continue to pass through and hit him. Against Hero, the shield seems to deflect it upwards to avoid letting it actually punch through. That in itself is a pretty significant difference, unless they changed Link's shield to behave the same way in the update and I haven't experienced it yet.

Bounce really is as oppressive as I feared. I mean, the character just came out, but it was already a huge nuisance for me when my opponent realized how restrictive it was to Megaman's playstyle and actively searched it out every opportunity they got. Hopefully I just need to learn the matchup more. From what I've played so far only one actually tried to go for it where as everyone else was just using whatever popped up.

What is all this about MM not being used that often coming from? MM is still fairly popular in the casual and competitive scene. With players like Kameme,, Yeti Peanbut and ScaTT even if he uses Snake more often now.

dont forget Kameme won Umebura Major 2019 using mostly MM, The , well one of the Blue Bombers in this game is still very relevant pick

What makes you say the character is popular in the casual scene? Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spots, but I almost never find people using him online, which is a shame as I like the ditto. Do you mean casual like small local tournaments? Because if so I have absolutely no idea about that besides a few that get mentioned here, so I'd have to take your word on that.

Also, all the players you listed used Megaman in Smash 4, and as you said, Scatt uses Snake more often now. There's nothing wrong with that, and I've seen at least a few names playing Megaman that I've never seen before at tournaments, but not very many. The character's scene doesn't seem to have grown too terribly much, potentially hampered by things like his significant early nerfs and of course his high skill floor.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the character is the least popular or relevant. Yeti's movement with the character is amazing and Kameme can still use him quite well too, like you said. But the list of concerns I mentioned having earlier haven't been alleviated by any of the updates the game has seen so far.

Which I said I was going to try and not talk about but here I am rambling anyway.

 

[Rizen]

The question should be "Is Hero's RNG significant in determining the outcome of matches?"

RNG is huge for Hero. Hero players will need to be skilled of course but also lucky to win. A crit is the difference between killing stupidly early or not. Woosh is completely luck based and can save Hero's life. Several spells, most notably magic burst, are purely luck instant kills. A lucky bounce spell completely changes neutral vs someone like Megaman. Hero is RNG the character. He literally lives or dies by it.

Does the shield actually effect the Link vs. MegaMan MU really that much?

No. The only time I use it is vs Fsmash so Link's bubble shield doesn't take reduction.

I wonder how he'll do versus reflector characters (like mine ).
Looks like a lot of his stuff relies on projectiles and given his poor aerial speed and acceleration he doesn't seem to be able to bait you into it that easily as other characters.
We'll see. I haven't fought one yet (because I didn't play yet) but I feel any reflector character will give him a hard time, especially Fox with his overall speed advantage.

I played Wolf vs Hero and Hero's spells are all slow. Reflectors invalidate a large part of his game and can be done on reaction. I think Wolf has a strong MU vs Hero.


Here's the patch notes btw:
https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/47012

 

[Nabbitnator]

How does bounce nullify MM? Hero has to hope it shows up in his spell list right?

 

[ON-2]

How does bounce nullify MM? Hero has to hope it shows up in his spell list right?

Bounce will reflect like 80% of Megaman's moves right back at him.

That being said I'm taking a wait and see approach. Hero just came out while Megaman has been around for years now so its gonna take some time to see how Megaman players start dealing with him.

 

[VodkaHaze]

How does bounce nullify MM? Hero has to hope it shows up in his spell list right?

I'll make a list of moves Megaman CAN use which won't be reflected, and I'll let you see if you think it nullifies MM or not:
Fair; Bair; utilt; dtilt; usmash; dsmash; up-B (does no damage though); down-B (before MM sends it out though); grab (as well as dash and pivot grab).

 

[NotLiquid]

As far as the Mega Man matchup is concerned, let's think about it this way.

Bringing up the menu is basically frame one. Accounting for the margin of error in human reaction times and canceling on a bad roll, Hero essentially gets 1 second of time to hope RNG works in his favor to bring out one attempt at Bounce, and that's merely for estimating how long it would take to retry a roll, and not accounting for the fact that ability to cancel/act out of the menu begins at around 20 frames, giving Hero a ~25 frame window at earliest where he's allowed to shield or spot-dodge if he's being aggro'd.

Nonetheless, one second is not an insignificant amount to pull out the move raw in neutral, assuming that's what Hero decides to do on instinct - and frankly I don't see there being a lot of moments necessitating Hero to pull out the move outside of advantage when Hero can already contest Mega Man's mid-range with Frizz and Zap. It doesn't take much for Hero to just hit someone off-stage. That's where he gets his opening - especially if he's already self-buffed with other commands like Acceleratle. Hero doesn't really need to worry about covering his coefficient in an unsafe situation unless he attempts to go for a desperation play. The moment the opponent is in any off-stage situation no matter how small, that's when he rolls the dice.

The raw numbers don't suggest that Mega Man is going to be able to out-camp Hero either. Despite Hero having a pretty mediocre aerial speed, his ground speed beats Mega Man's pretty handily (1.84 > 1.602), so realistically, Hero has ample opportunity to not only give himself room to pray to the RNGods, but also force aggression on Mega Man who possesses very few mid-range utility moves that aren't projectiles. Mega Man does possess air superiority, but I wouldn't hedge my bets on that against Hero's ability to trap landings.

Logistically speaking, Bounce should not be hard to dig out, and I don't think that's a discussion that needs to be had. However, that's not to say Mega Man is without options despite that. He still has a good set of aerials - something Hero kinda lacks - in the form of BAir and FAir. If Hero decides to not approach though, those moves aren't gonna be of much use. Everything Mega Man does that isn't a projectile is usually committal or low-range, with those aerials being an exception.

What I suspect Mega Man is really going to want to counterplay against Hero is his MP bar. Even though it's a tough proposition, finding an opening through his resources is going to heavily determine whether or not Mega Man is allowed to approach. I don't think it's unwinnable, but this is a match up that screams power creep.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I've played with Zard versus a multitude of heroes on tourney mode. Correct me if I'm wrong but here's what I found.

Zard's disadvantage state isn't much of a problem versus hero. Unless hero has acceleratle then Zard being combo food is a non issue.

Zard's flamethrower is hero's worst nightmare, able to interrupt whatever hero is doing whenever hero gets underneath zard.

Trying to go into the air against zard is a no-go. Zard's USmash levels hero and if that doesn't work Zard can go for an UpB, that's if zard doesn't decide to exchange with his buffed NAir.

Hero has zard beat on the ground, his sizzle spells and projectiles easily wall zard out and if he gets magic burst and buffs himself with oomph, acceleratle and psyche up? Forget it, best to take to the air in that case.

Zard actually CAN approach on the ground since his dashes are faster than heroes but if the stage is large horizontally Hero can activate one of his commands for free before Zard can reach him.

Zard's DAir is a pain for hero offstage, because Whoosh has no hitbox above it Zard can jump up and go for a DAir spike.

TL;DR Zard has no problems with hero in the air or offstage but get hero on the ground and it becomes a problem.

 

[Click5]

I'll make a list of moves Megaman CAN use which won't be reflected, and I'll let you see if you think it nullifies MM or not:
Fair; Bair; utilt; dtilt; usmash; dsmash; up-B (does no damage though); down-B (before MM sends it out though); grab (as well as dash and pivot grab).

Also, dash attack, and any close hitbox on his nair or ftilt. Mega Man has been playing around reflectors since day 1. I'm sure with enough match up practice, you'll see Mega Man pelleting Hero's down B on reaction

In regards to "Despite Hero having a pretty mediocre aerial speed, his ground speed beats Mega Man's pretty handily (1.84 > 1.602)"

A good Mega Man should never be running, his dash is significantly better, one of the best in the game at 1.958

 

[Arthur97]

So, have MP shortages even come up much for any of you? When I fight Heroes, MP doesn't seem to be much of an issue for them.

 

[Rizen]

So, have MP shortages even come up much for any of you? When I fight Heroes, MP doesn't seem to be much of an issue for them.

All MP really means is you can't be spammy with magic. Hero's MP refills fairly fast and even faster if he's fighting and hits the opponent. Unless you just used magic burst it shouldn't be a problem for recovering. He needs to portion spells, especially fire and thunder charged, out but can use them throughout the entire game.

 

[san.]

I'm still catching up on reading this, but I am glad that the combo counter seems to be competent now. With the inclusion of hero, that may be giving a bit of a skewed perception of his combo game since now it's more "correct" for everyone.

Concerning Hero's recovery, the second version of his upB, swoosh I believe, has much more horizontal distance and also covers more of his body, up to his head. With projectiles, a fast up air, and the ability to alter the timing of his recovery due to charging, I think his recovery is overall at least average. Compared to other sword characters, I think that's a bit of a step up for most of them.

Other than zap, I think people are generally underrating his other uncharged projectiles. Woosh still deals an OK amount of damage for a good out of shield option that covers both sides. Frizz moves slowly, deals good damage for its frame data, and pops the opponent upwards.