Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Tri Knight]

How does Hero make Link obsolete...

 

[VodkaHaze]

robin yes. shulk no. i can also make an argument for link.
also RIP robin. there's no reason to play her now.


we've had this since melee. peach, game and watch have been doing this for 20 years. why is this an issue now?

Game & Watch players rarely, if ever, go for Judge. The move can be difficult to land and some results are quite punishable. It's high-risk, high-reward. Though with Peach, if we could remove the randomness of her turnips, we would.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Peach and G&W’s RNG aren’t comparable to an entire slew of options and situations Hero’s spells open up though. Peach still has use out of her weakest Turnip and there isn’t a “bad” one for her to pull. G&W’s Judge on the other hand is usually beneficial to land but it’s not a move he’d miss without it.

Hero is designed with all these specials in mind so RNG definitely matters a lot more to him than Peach or G&W. If Hero needs to roll Zoom or he’s dead and he doesn’t that matters, if Peach rolls her standard turnip when she wants a Stitch she’s fine she still has use out of that turnip.

RNG talk aside I am interested in how the language barrier will play out. I think it’s disingenuous to dismiss concerns over it because you can memorize each word. Of course you can that’s not an issue. What is a issue is actually recognizing what your looking at in the middle of an active match when the menu is only open for a very brief period of time. I do not speak Japanese, I know nearly nothing about it. When your presented with four words in a language you do not understand you need more than a brief moment to recognize what your looking at without actual knowledge of the language itself. I think there is room for valid concern here and I doubt I am the only one who feels this way. (Not that this would likely ever apply to me personally but I used myself as an example).

iirc the brain doesn’t even read a word first it looks at the first and last letters of a word and fills the blanks in before you actually read the word itself. Don’t remember where I heard this from or if it’s true but I thought I’d share.

 

[Lacrimosa]

According to Dabuz, Hero's framedata is really bad, especially his aerials.
So we'll see how this balances things out but that means he can't really approach (yeah, he's a zoner but apparently you can jump over the electric and fire attack. Recovery doesn't look that great as well.

So, I'm looking forward to him.

 

[PK Gaming]

There isn't a single character that renders another, non-echo/clone character obsolete

Cmon now

 

[Galgatha]

There isn't a single character that renders another, non-echo/clone character obsolote

Cmon now

The argument sounds similar to how people claimed back in Sm4sh that Cloud made Ike obsolete.

 

[VodkaHaze]

According to Dabuz, Hero's framedata is really bad, especially his aerials.
So we'll see how this balances things out but that means he can't really approach (yeah, he's a zoner but apparently you can jump over the electric and fire attack. Recovery doesn't look that great as well.

So, I'm looking forward to him.

I hope he has some noticeable weaknesses, otherwise the character would break the game (which is true of every character).
But what caught my eye is the language barrier. If you're in a tournament in a foreign country, and they have set to their native language which you don't speak, you're screwed unless you learnt the words prior to the match.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There isn't a single character that renders another, non-echo/clone character obsolote

Cmon now

Why play Sheik when you can play Greninja or Joker?

Serious question. What is her niche that one of those two can't touch while still being significant? (Example: I wouldn't call her having a teleport recovery significant.)

 

[Avokha]

I'm sorry, but I have to ask; How exactly does the hero make Robin utterly obsolete like so many of you are surmising? So far not a single soul has given any good reasons for why that is

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Oh dear.
People here are still using the "There's no reason to play (X character) because (Y reason)." logic...

Why am I not surprised...

 

[VodkaHaze]

I'm sorry, but I have to ask; How exactly does the hero make Robin utterly obsolete like so many of you are surmising? So far not a single soul has given any good reasons for why that is

What would make these statements funny is if Robin gets noticeable buffs in 4.0.

 

[PK Gaming]

Why play Sheik when you can play Greninja or Joker?

Serious question. What is her niche that one of those two can't touch while still being significant? (Example: I wouldn't call her having a teleport recovery significant.)

That's more on Sheik being mediocre(?) than those 2 straight up rendering her invalid as a character. There are dozens of characters in this game that outclass others (ex: 0 reason to play Corrin over Ike) but not to a degree where you are objectively hindering yourself by playing them.

Regardless, claims like Robin being rendered obsolete by Hero are completely unfounded.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Guys, Hero makes Mario, ZSS, and Duck Hunt utterly obsolete

 

[Gérard Majax]

About RNG :

I can't remember when I read something about it (maybe something by a MtG designer? idk), but randomness isn't necessary bad for a game, even a competitive one. There are arguably "good" and "bad" RNG however (in the context of a competitive game, I'm not saying that D&D would be more fun without dice rolls lol).

"Good" RNG tests your decision making by throwing you in unpredictable situations, and seeing what you can do with them. Hero's down b would arguably be simpler to use if you could pick the spell you want everytime, as the question becomes "What is the best spell in this situation?". Over the time, Hero players would learn which spells are the best for each matchup in each situation, and follow a flowchart. In its current iteration though, the question is "What is the best spell available to me for this situation?", which is way more complicated. "Is it worth picking one, or should I wait for a better roll?" is an other interesting question raised (probabilities yay, this question happens a lot in poker/autochess/roguelikes). It also makes sure that the worse spells get to see some play sometimes: you can't balance them all and some of them will be outclassed by the other... unless the best option isn't available right now. Also you are likely to use down b a bunch of time each game, which helps in regard to randomness.

I'm definitely not saying that a "pick your spell at will", or even a rotating deterministic spell system would be inherently less skilled, but RNG has its merits sometimes. Even peach turnip raises interesting situations, as it leads to new game states (neutral is different when peach has a stitch face in hand. or if mr saturn is on the stage).

"Bad RNG" tests your.. not much, and randomly rewards you according to a dice roll. G&W Judge is the worst offender here, because games can literally be decided by luck (I just watched Maister vs leo, at least one of the game was decided by Judge RNG). But at least you can argue that choosing between Judge and a nair is a decision in itself? Situations like "I need Zoom or I die here" also go in this category but well, you are bound to have cases like this (it's pretty much Pavel babbling book lol).

And then you have Hero crits, which have absolutely nothing to do in a competitive game. But yay, flavor!

Why play Sheik when you can play Greninja or Joker?

Here is a list of common points between Greninja and Sheik playstyles:
- They move fast.
- They have to kill the opponent 3 times to win.

That's all I can think of. It's like you said "why play Lucas when you can play Ness?".

 

[Tri Knight]

Hero's framedata is really bad, especially his aerials.

I had a feeling this was gonna be how they offset his plethora of abilities. Not being able to approach will hurt him. Hope it's not the case.

As it stands there's no way in hell he can make any character he MAY have slight similarities to, obsolete. And even if he does end up being really good, people are blowing his similarities to other characters way out of proportion.

Also, I may have been mistaken. It seems his up, side, and neutral special will always be the same and can all charged for maximum effects. It's the down-b that selects the randomized menu as well as its use. Initially I thought the menu makes all 4 specials randomized based on the menu. That's a relief and sounds a lot better imo.

 

[Arthur97]

robin yes. shulk no. i can also make an argument for link.
also RIP robin. there's no reason to play her now.


we've had this since melee. peach, game and watch have been doing this for 20 years. why is this an issue now?

Them. I mean, they had it bad enough, now the Heroes show up and take their gimmick. Course, doesn't help I'm not a fan of them (or the artstyle with only one of them that I actually like their look). Oh, and the excessive use of gimmicks since 4. Or really powerful ones, especially for third party DLC (4 Limit, Arsene).

That said, looking at it a bit more objectively, they may end up making Marth look consistent, and that's not a good thing. At the very least when using the Robins, you don't have to hope you get lucky when using resources.

The argument sounds similar to how people claimed back in Sm4sh that Cloud made Ike obsolete.

To be fair, Cloud kind of did that to most fighters.

 

[ZephyrZ]

One thing I'm not seeing people talking about is Hero's recovery. It seems kind of exploitable.

The MP cost for Woosh and Swoosh (5 and 9) don't seem absolutely terrible considering the rate at which they recover at, but there's nothing to indicate that Hero has a hitbox or armor or something to protect him on the way up. It seems to move pretty quickly though.

 

[Tri Knight]

One thing I'm not seeing people talking about is Hero's recovery. It seems kind of exploitable.

The MP cost for Woosh and Swoosh (5 and 9) don't seem absolutely terrible considering the rate at which they recover at, but there's nothing to indicate that Hero has a hitbox or armor or something to protect him on the way up. It seems to move pretty quickly though.

It could be but as you said he goes up pretty fast. It's also chargeable and slows him down in the air which could potentially mix up his recovery. It's a very vertical recovery but it looks like his free movement with it is pretty good so he can at least get a bit of distance horizontally. Definitely not as bad as I though it'd be.

 

[VodkaHaze]

About RNG :

I can't remember when I read something about it (maybe something by a MtG designer? idk), but randomness isn't necessary bad for a game, even a competitive one. There are arguably "good" and "bad" RNG however (in the context of a competitive game, I'm not saying that D&D would be more fun without dice rolls lol).

"Good" RNG tests your decision making by throwing you in unpredictable situations, and seeing what you can do with them. Hero's down b would arguably be simpler to use if you could pick the spell you want everytime, as the question becomes "What is the best spell in this situation?". Over the time, Hero players would learn which spells are the best for each matchup in each situation, and follow a flowchart. In its current iteration though, the question is "What is the best spell available to me for this situation?", which is way more complicated. "Is it worth picking one, or should I wait for a better roll?" is an other interesting question raised (probabilities yay, this question happens a lot in poker/autochess/roguelikes). It also makes sure that the worse spells get to see some play sometimes: you can't balance them all and some of them will be outclassed by the other... unless the best option isn't available right now. Also you are likely to use down b a bunch of time each game, which helps in regard to randomness.

I'm definitely not saying that a "pick your spell at will", or even a rotating deterministic spell system would be inherently less skilled, but RNG has its merits sometimes. Even peach turnip raises interesting situations, as it leads to new game states (neutral is different when peach has a stitch face in hand. or if mr saturn is on the stage).

"Bad RNG" tests your.. not much, and randomly rewards you according to a dice roll. G&W Judge is the worst offender here, because games can literally be decided by luck (I just watched Maister vs leo, at least one of the game was decided by Judge RNG). But at least you can argue that choosing between Judge and a nair is a decision in itself? Situations like "I need Zoom or I die here" also go in this category but well, you are bound to have cases like this (it's pretty much Pavel babbling book lol).

And then you have Hero crits, which have absolutely nothing to do in a competitive game. But yay, flavor!







Here is a list of common points between Greninja and Sheik playstyles:
- They move fast.
- They have to kill the opponent 3 times to win.

That's all I can think of. It's like you said "why play Lucas when you can play Ness?".

But by your definition of "good RNG" and "bad RNG" for competition, Hero still has bad RNG. His smash attacks can do critical hits, which can do ~40%. Imagine if you die early because Hero got lucky with the smash attack. You'd be perturbed to put it mildly.

 

[Djmarcus44]

When it comes to the language barrier on Hero's down special, it is probably easier to remember mp costs since the numbers are the same regardless of the language. 9 of the specials have unique numbers. Psyche up, Bounce, Oomph, and Snooze are specials that should probably be used from a distance (spacing them for snooze to hit the opponent should be fine). Flame Slash and Crackle Slash seem to have similar range. Kaclang and Metal Slash don't seem that useful in competitive play (unless Kaclang doesn't have a lot of lag). There are some minor drawbacks to this method, but a player can read what moves are available by the mp cost faster than learning the language in most cases. You can learn the words for the moves that have the same mp costs, but remembering mp costs should be fine.

 

[blackghost]

About RNG :

Here is a list of common points between Greninja and Sheik playstyles:
- They move fast.
- They have to kill the opponent 3 times to win.

That's all I can think of. It's like you said, "why play Lucas when you can play Ness?".

ness is just better by a lot. better pk thunder, better pk fire, better grab, better ledge trap (yo-yo). better spike. better combo game. better bair. better fair. better nair.
there's a reason ness sees play and lucas doesn't.
sometimes the only reason people play a character is love for that character or comfort. but objectively comparing tool vs. tool there are times when a character does invalidate another. doesn't just happen in smash it happens in other fighting games, it happens in card games, and it happens a lot in MOBAs.

 

[Y2Kay]

Why play Sheik when you can play Greninja

While insinuating that Sheik and Greninja play similarly is definitely false, I still find it heavily cathartic when people say this after years of people calling Greninja a worse Sheik.

 

[SwagGuy99]

we've had this since melee. peach, game and watch have been doing this for 20 years. why is this an issue now?

Because, those are rare enough occurances and will sometimes hinder the player rather than help them (overshooting stage with misfire, getting a 1 using judge, accidentally exploding a bob-bomb) but most of Hero's abilities are a chance of occasional really good luck without enough unlucky moves to balance this out IMO.

If Hero is a fast character and if his abilities going to work like we imagine, I think we will have another DLC Top Tier. They just need to buff Piranha Plant's aerials and up-tilt and we could have a DLC High Tier as well.

 

[|RK|]

I feel like Hero's MP will hinder him more than people are giving it credit for. It was said for Frizzle that if you don't have the MP for a spell, you simply won't be able to use it.

This is different from Robin, who can use any spell as long as he's not empty. And his recovery is tied to his MP, alongside most things he does.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Peach blowing herself up with a bob-bomb is extremely rare. Honestly I can't think of major downsides for going for that move aside from the time it takes to pluck one - even a weak turnip can still be used as a decent projectile or combo starter.

I somehow doubt Hero's down b is going to be as overcentralizing to his viability as we're acting like it's going to be. Why gamble when you seem to have perfectly good zoning tools that don't depend on RNGesus taking your side?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I feel like Hero's MP will hinder him more than people are giving it credit for. It was said for Frizzle that if you don't have the MP for a spell, you simply won't be able to use it.

This is different from Robin, who can use any spell as long as he's not empty. And his recovery is tied to his MP, alongside most things he does.

Hero apparently passively regains 1MP per second, and they can regain quicker by doing damage with normals and smashes. In other words they can get MP back pretty easily it seems

 

[Arthur97]

Because, those are rare enough occurances and will sometimes hinder the player rather than help them (overshooting stage with misfire, getting a 1 using judge, accidentally exploding a bob-bomb) but most of Hero's abilities are a chance of occasional really good luck without enough unlucky moves to balance this out IMO.

If Hero is a fast character and if his abilities going to work like we imagine, I think we will have another DLC Top Tier. They just need to buff Piranha Plant's aerials and up-tilt and we could have a DLC High Tier as well.

Plant is from a different cloth. It's both first party and more of a late add on (it's the only one with a guidance).

 

[Terotrous]

we've had this since melee. peach, game and watch have been doing this for 20 years. why is this an issue now?

It's a matter of degree. Those characters have 1 move that involves RNG, whereas Hero has at least 3 (crits on smashes, moves chosen by down B, the effect of Thwack). At a certain point random chance starts to play too much of a role.

Maybe he'll turn out to be fine but I'm definitely a bit concerned.

 

[Myollnir]

RK is correct. 1MP/sec isn't going to be enough. Imagine only throwing a T-Jolt every 7 seconds or so... What we need to know is if the MP gets restored on attacking a shield, I feel that's going to be pretty important

 

[Shaya]

https://smashboards.com/threads/patch-4-0-0-discussion-thread.487079

someone remind me in an hour if I forget.

Rejoice, we're back!

Hero is amazingly fun. PvE and PvP intertwined has never felt so... engaging.
A lot of the RNG power will probably come down to 3 out of the 4 options in the menu (so in other words, one extra press at most to quick pick things). Training your peripheral vision and quicksnap responses to what you're most after (snooze) or wanting to avoid (kamikaze) one spell at a time will take people a long time I'd say (and I'm not sure how much the human brain could have capacity for such a "thoughtless" response to a long list of things), but there's somethig quite glorious (and probably cheesy) at landing nair/uair/a throw into quicksnap snooze.

Definitely a whole range of different skills and facets to a character not really seen in Smash (or much of any game I think I've played) before.

RNG really is cool. Seriously, gets too much of a bad rep ;_;

Good luck (in more ways than one) to anyone really trying to push or main them.

 

[The_Bookworm]

https://smashboards.com/threads/patch-4-0-0-discussion-thread.487079

someone remind me in an hour if I forget.

Rejoice, we're back!

Hero is amazingly fun. PvE and PvP intertwined has never felt so... engaging.
A lot of the RNG power will probably come down to 3 out of the 4 options in the menu (so in other words, one extra press at most to quick pick things). Training your peripheral vision and quicksnap responses to what you're most after (snooze) or wanting to avoid (kamikaze) one spell at a time will take people along time I'd say (and I'm not sure how much the human brain could have capacity for such a "thoughtless" response to a long list of things), but there's somethig quite glorious (and probably cheesy) at landing nair/uair/a throw into quicksnap snooze.

Definitely a whole range of different skills and facets to a character not really seen in Smash (or much of any game I think I've played) before.

RNG really is cool. Seriously, gets too much of a bad rep ;_;

Good luck (in more ways than one) to anyone really trying to push or main them.

I won't be playing him, or the rest of the patch, until tomorrow, so I will experience him then. From what it seems, Hero looks like a fun character to play as, but no where near as ridiculous as some people painted him earlier today.

Also, I will tomorrow basket in those and buffs.

 

[Frihetsanka]

From what it seems, Hero looks like a fun character to play as, but no where near as ridiculous as some people painted him earlier today.

He can literally kill people at like 24-40% with AoE spells (so not close range like Mr Game & Watch), he's the most RNG based Smash character ever and if he doesn't end up banned he's likely to become the most hated character in the game.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

He can literally kill people at like 24-40% with AoE spells (so not close range like Mr Game & Watch), he's the most RNG based Smash character ever and if he doesn't end up banned he's likely to become the most hated character in the game.

Crit Smashes..early Whack/Thwack kills and getting Hocus Pocus effects like becoming giant or invincible will make people salty, that is certian

 

[Tri Knight]

https://smashboards.com/threads/patch-4-0-0-discussion-thread.487079

someone remind me in an hour if I forget.

Rejoice, we're back!

Hero is amazingly fun. PvE and PvP intertwined has never felt so... engaging.
A lot of the RNG power will probably come down to 3 out of the 4 options in the menu (so in other words, one extra press at most to quick pick things). Training your peripheral vision and quicksnap responses to what you're most after (snooze) or wanting to avoid (kamikaze) one spell at a time will take people a long time I'd say (and I'm not sure how much the human brain could have capacity for such a "thoughtless" response to a long list of things), but there's somethig quite glorious (and probably cheesy) at landing nair/uair/a throw into quicksnap snooze.

Definitely a whole range of different skills and facets to a character not really seen in Smash (or much of any game I think I've played) before.

RNG really is cool. Seriously, gets too much of a bad rep ;_;

Good luck (in more ways than one) to anyone really trying to push or main them.

He's very fun. He hits extremely hard and is capable of hitting even harder. Hocus Pocus spell made Hero a giant the first time I used it.

Did a bit of kill percent testing against Roy and he kills very early. Charged Side-B killing at 28%! I like him a lot actually. Only concern I have is his approach game.

 

[Shaya]

Oh and thwack has an incredibly high chance of OHKOing you by the time you're at 75% or above I'd say.
Unless getting it three times in a row is a reflection of my god tier luck (I did pull like 5 5*s in two dragalia gala tenfolds so, yah, maybe).

 

[arbustopachon]

Im not sure how PT is doing after this patch, the nerf to d-throw vine whip seems kinda rough.

Zard is feeling pretty good tho, the 3 frame landing lag reduction on nair is great and f-throw is kinda scary now. His tech chases seem really good.

 

[ZephyrZ]

It's easy to panic when your main gets nerfed, but Ivy still has good disjoints, and fairly spammable and rewarding projectile (even if it's a bit less spammable and rewarding), and can still kill confirm to some degree. PT will be fine.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Premature Day 1 Take:

Hero's down special menu is...interesting. I'm talking from the perspective of pulling it up, analyzing the options it gives you, and selecting an option, all before the enemy can smack you in the face for even trying. And hitstun of any sort cancels it entirely, so anyone with a half-decent projectile (Sheik in particular comes to mind) can probably make it extremely difficult for Hero to camp for good menu options. I currently foresee two primary ways for him to utilize it:

* Fish for Heal or a status buff (Oomph, Bounce, etc.) between stocks or after some strong hit that leaves Hero safe from immediate retaliation. The safe option.
* Have a specific spell in mind as you pull up the menu and either select it ASAP if it's there or cancel it ASAP if it's not. Don't even try to read the other options, just do a quick scan for whatever you're looking for. Risky, but potentially more rewarding if anyone figures out a confirm into Kaboom or something.

 

[PK Gaming]

Preliminary hero thoughts:

-Hero is fantastic. Not necessarily in terms of viability, but overall design. There's a nice ebb and flow to the character where you play the usual tug of war with your opponent until you have that golden opportunity to press your advantage and go for the potentially game-changing down special.
-His normal's don't seem particularly dominant, but as of right now they get the job done.
-Sizzle is nuts. 40% on a projectile is wild, especially since it seems to be less laggy and more powerful than Samus's charge shot(?)
-Nice initial dash speed I think
-No significant problems recovering, as long as you're smart
-He'll definitely shake things up, but I suspect that he will suffer like Joker in the sense that no one will want to drop their main and countless hours of experience for a new character

 

[Frihetsanka]

-Hero is fantastic. Not necessarily in terms of viability, but overall design. There's a nice ebb and flow to the character where you play the usual tug of war with your opponent until you have that golden opportunity to press your advantage and go for the potentially game-changing down special.

Both Armada and Leffen seem to think he's the worst designed character in the game (dethroning Little Mac), and I am inclined to agree. A character based around RNG is not really a good fit for a competitive fighting game, although it is a good fit for a casual party game. Shame there's no way to get two versions of Hero, one suited for competitive play and the one we got.

He's going to be so hated if he doesn't end up banned. Potentially worse than Smash 4 Sonic, Bayonetta, and Cloud.