Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[DelugeFGC]

I get the impression is potentially a top tier now. Like some of his confirms and combos are flat out disgusting, this man can kill you with a single read at 50% now. got pretty awesome too.

But seriously, Ken's weak UTilt and strong Jab are harbingers of doom that lock you up into freeform combos of all kinds. DAir can start some glorious stuff as well, if Ken touches you once now you're pretty much guaranteed to eat a ton of % or die if he executes right.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I get the impression is potentially a top tier now. Like some of his confirms and combos are flat out disgusting, this man can kill you with a single read at 50% now. got pretty awesome too.

But seriously, Ken's weak UTilt and strong Jab are harbingers of doom that look you up into freeform combos of all kinds. DAir can start some glorious stuff as well, if Ken touches you once now you're pretty much guaranteed to eat a ton of % or die if he executes right.

Ken (and by extension Ryu) is most likely not top tier. They still have their noticeable issues approaching and offstage Ryu/Ken is still a very vulnerable character.

Then again, SSB4 Ryu pretty much had the same issues. Ken adopts SSB4 Ryu's speed in proportion to the cast (plus having % combos and KO combos that make SSB4 Ryu blush), and Ryu now has actual good Hadokens to chuck out now for zoning. They may be high tier, but we will have to wait to see how that pans out. They do look scary though.

 

[PK Gaming]

joker bait and punishes rely on having superior frame data and movement. joker has to get in at some point to do major damage. with ken having invincible moves that can lead into major damage the risk is much higher not to mention shoryuken is the original "get off me". Plus joker, unlike many other characters, loses more than just his stock if he dies early.

"Superior frame data and movement" are the reasons why Joker doesn't have to worry about Ken outclassing him.

I also think he's a lot more of an opportunistic fighter than Ken.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

"Superior frame data and movement" are the reasons why Joker doesn't have to worry about Ken outclassing him.

I also think he's a lot more of an opportunistic fighter than Ken.

well that is pretty accurate considering that he is a thief, i am actually more interested on lucario, bowser jr, and bayo potential now that they are better.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Ken (and by extension Ryu) is most likely not top tier. They still have their noticeable issues approaching and offstage Ryu/Ken is still a very vulnerable character.

Then again, SSB4 Ryu pretty much had the same issues. Ken adopts SSB4 Ryu's speed in proportion to the cast (plus having % combos and KO combos that make SSB4 Ryu blush), and Ryu now has actual good Hadokens to chuck out now for zoning. They may be high tier, but we will have to wait to see how that pans out. They do look scary though.

They're definitely high tier at worst, but Ken in particular looking mad spicy. Ken is scary now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Did...someone say Joker's frame data is superior to Ken's? Movement sure. But dem numbahs tho?

Nah fam.

Chill. There are like around 10 chars total that can mess with Ken in terms of frame data. Meaning start-up, recovery, shield safety, etc.

Joker ain't it chief. He is close, but not quite.

As far as tier placement goes, I stand by results and MU data.

Theory is cool when it comes to concepts and pushing the meta. But when it comes to tiers, I need cold hard data. And that comes from tournaments and analyzing MU's.

 

[Idon]

Alright...

If there was any doubt before, I think we can all safely say that Joker is top tier.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Alright...

If there was any doubt now, I think we can all safely say that Joker is top tier.

We can comfortably say that he isn't "low tier trash" or "just another mid tier character".

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu will blast you as well lol. Ken isn't the only one. pic.twitter.com/yITYGNyemF

— RenegadeTX (@Renegade_TX2000) June 2, 2019

For the ones on the Ryu hype train.

 

[PK Gaming]

Alright...

If there was any doubt before, I think we can all safely say that Joker is top tier.

We can go one step further and say that he's the single best character in the game as well atm

 

[Ziodyne 21]

We can go one step further and say that he's the single best character in the game as well atm

Wow..lets not go crazy here. I would say Joker is looking potentiall top-tier. Especailly in 3.1.0 with the nerfs top-tiers got. But lets wait a bit before we cry Smash 4 Bayo or Cloud on him

 

[TTTTTsd]

Personally I think y'all should keep a real close eye on Ken seeing as he has earned the ability to delete your stock in roughly 2 jump ins, very accurate to ST now

 

[Ark of Silence101]

https://mobile.twitter.com/gsmVoiD/status/1135387191155286016
So it seems VoiD no longer plans to main Pichu and will instead look through his secondaries to see which fits better while keeping Pichu as a secondary for certain MUs.

 

[Heracr055]

Calling it now: the year 20SF will not come to fruition in this game, at least not with these buffs. Why? Because these 2 characters were built as characters who are centered around footsie interaction. Many high and top tiers take footsies and throw it out the window with their tools, or can just avoid that close and personal interaction with Shotos altogether. Shotos have to either try and hope they can force an approach (good luck with that and trying to zone with Hadouken) or try to satisfy their win condition of close range (which as I mentioned earlier many of the better characters can avoid). The only real potential exception is if Ken's speed can actually allow him to get in, which I doubt (Ryu obviously cannot do it, as we saw in Smash 4). Even if they do yield some success, it will not be a consistent stream of results, at least if players are intent on solo maining them. This is why the future of Shotos will lie in the realm of counterpick meta (in which capacity they may have the potential to do well to excellent, but are not solo viable).

 

[DelugeFGC]

It doesn't matter how hard it is to play footsies when Ken (who is quite speedy with pretty good frame data) can kill you off of two neutral interactions if he executes. He has to win neutral less to take stocks now, way less, his rewards from landing hits just got massive. He also has Focus Kick mixups and Hado, so he's not completely screwed at range / in disadvantage either when you pair that with his speed / frame data.

You can't just discount that, especially not when Ryu has the zoning he does now as well. They may not take over the top tier, but they're high tier + at least now and I'd say they're far more valuable than just counterpick characters. As these two are optimized and developed, god knows what their potential could yield for them.



Regardless of their viability, these buffs pushed me to play around with them and Ken / Ryu may genuinely be some of the funnest character to use I've ever tried out in the Smash series. Especially Ryu, as his zoning stuff meshes with me naturally more-so than Ken's game does, but they're both fantastic. Bummer I didn't try them sooner, viability be damned. They're super cool.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If there was any doubt before, I think we can all safely say that Joker is top tier.

Reminds me of when people thought Ike was top tier. I'm not saying he's not, he could very well be top tier, but for the time being I'm not convinced it's not just MkLeo being incredibly skilled. There's a tendency for people here to jump to conclusions based on tournament results, while there are so many factors to keep in mind.

 

[Mister M]

I'm expecting a Trela-esque speech on the shotos any second now

 

[Heracr055]

Dude I was a Shoto. I know what makes Ryu tick and work (I assume Ken is along the same lines and am confident he'll fall into the same caricature that Ryu did in 4). And Ryu zoning is a joke, and it devastates me that people believe that Hadoukens serve that purpose (have you seen the cooldown and vulnerability on that move, not to mention how easily Hadoukens break to pretty much any move?). And yes, being able to get in absolutely does matter; I hope you all grasp how impotent the Shotos become if they can't get in. Lastly...the subject of fun is completely separate from obtaining results and success, at least as far as competitive.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Dude I was a Shoto. I know what makes Ryu tick and work (I assume Ken is along the same lines and am confident he'll fall into the same caricature that Ryu did in 4). And Ryu zoning is a joke, and it devastates me that people believe that Hadoukens serve that purpose. And yes, being able to get in absolutely does matter; I hope you all grasp how impotent the Shotos become if they can't get in. Lastly...the subject of fun is completely separate from obtaining results and success, at least as far as competitive.

Yeah.. that's why it was separate from the rest of the post.

Also Ryu's zoning is a, joke? Okay.

 

[DunnoBro]

Hadouken honestly draws heavier parallels to Mario Fireball than other zoning tools.

Lacking priority, or speed; But boasting lowish committment for an otherwise very hurtboxy, trading-proned character, with the potential for very high reward if the placements line up well.

Definitely a necessary tool to force people to approach occasionally, but not really something you can rely on if they're already doing that. Making it more of a pure approach-forcer than a true zoning tool imo.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Hadouken honestly draws heavier parallels to Mario Fireball than other zoning tools.

Lacking priority, or speed; But boasting lowish committment for an otherwise very hurtboxy, trading-proned character, with the potential for very high reward if the placements line up well.

Definitely a necessary tool to force people to approach occasionally, but not really something you can rely on if they're already doing that. Making it more of a pure approach-forcer than a true zoning tool imo.

B Hadoken is fast moving / pretty active and is effective for space control because of this, input Hadoken is more-suited for what you said and is slow af, but Shakunetsu is definitely in the sphere of what I'd call a pretty useful zoning tool that can also shield pressure and start combos. Primarily due to how Ryu can cancel certain moves into them, if you do this right it can control space pretty damned well and force options out of people to boot.

The combined sum of Ryu's 3 projectiles with a pinch of Tatsu throws in makes it to where I can't NOT call him at least part-zoner / space controller. It's a pretty heavy part of his neutral when at a distance in a lot of MU's.

 

[bc1910]

We can comfortably conclude that Joker is high tier at worst and indeed a potential top tier. No one is taking two majors with a character that isn’t at least strong, no matter how good a player they are. Fair 1 into Arsene Usmash is nuts. He can also combo Fair 1 into dragdown Uair for kill confirms in his base form, which seems unexplored.

However.

Leo is the undisputed best player in the world right now. He pushed characters to their limit in Smash 4 and continues to do so now. Putting characters on the map is what this guy does, it doesn’t mean that others can emulate it and it certainly doesn’t mean the characters he chooses to use are overpowered. We need more Joker results from other players before drawing a conclusion.

Bear in mind that only a few players in the world are even capable of putting up a fight against Leo right now, and most of them main characters that you could reasonably expect Joker to do well against. He has anti-zoning tools to deal with Snake, mobility to deal with Peach etc. Leo still switches off Joker for Pichu, and other small evasive combo characters (Pika, Fox, Greninja) can give Joker a lot of trouble.

Finally, this character has been out for barely over a month. Leo’s achievement in a small space of time is incredible, but equally no one else has a clue how to fight this character yet. Remember when everyone thought Mewtwo was broken after Abadango wrecked everyone with him after the buffs? MU inexperience goes a long way. Not to mention that no one else can really compare to Leo’s Joker for practice right now either.

If Joker does end up being a problem (which we’re a long way from) it shouldn’t be difficult to curb him, compared to S4 Cloud or Bayo who had a myriad of overpowered aspects. Joker’s base form is completely fine, a small reduction in Arsene’s duration and increase in damage/time required to get Arsene should be all he needs. Maybe stop him from starting the second stock with 20% meter as well.

Joker is looking good but let’s not jump the gun until we have more data to work with.

 

[Heracr055]

Ryu's 2 projectiles, Hadouken and Shakenutsu, actually do have quite a bit of commitment. Either attack takes about a second from the input of the move until you can act again; that's a significant amount of time for approaching characters to hop over/under the projectile and close in, or for a camping opponent to simply walk away from/jump over said projectile. The proper usage of this move is as a poking tool, never as a zoning tool.
Being able to obtain special cancels into Hadouken/ Shakenutsu implies that you are special cancelling normals/aerials, meaning you are connecting your close range attacks in close quarters.
1) You don't want to be throwing Hadouken/ Shakenutsu right in front of an opponent, because that leaves you vulnerable if they are able to shield or avoid it
2) Using special cancelled Hadouken/ Shakenutsu in this context means you are not zoning.
In addition, you do NOT want to attempt to use Tasmtsumaki Senpuyaku as a zoning tool. You only want to use this move in 3 scenarios:
1) When you want to special cancel into it up close
2) You are using it as a recovery tool
3) You are using it as a mixup tool in neutral
You really don't want to throw this out in neutral or else you are going to get punished hard, as it leaves you wide open and only the first hit of it counts (ie not multihit like Ken's).

Edit: Since the comparison to Mario's fireball came up: Mario can maintain his aerial momentum when he throws his fireball. As in, he can actually approach with it, retreat with it, and take advantage of b reverses and wavebounces with it. What makes this great for Mario is that he can force a block/other favorable reaction with fireball so he can grab a shielding foe or punish another action, or he can retreat to safety & discourage approaches with retreating fireballs. This is truly a zoning tool in this capacity, since he can control the space he wants with this projectile. Compare that to Hadouken/Shakenutsu, which leaves Ryu in a fixed vertical position when he uses it in the air. He doesn't have the aerial flexibility to use his projectile in the same way as fireball to truly control space or maintain a desired range from his opponent.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you want me to make an observation, the really bad dash > shield options and general curbing of defensive techniques make the odds of a character like Ken hitting you significantly higher than a game like Smash 4 where you could safely dashblock shotos all day.

Also implying top tiers "ignore neutral" or "throw footsies out the window" is a really weird phrase. They play it just like everyone else, they don't skip it, if they're not teleporting into me laglessly and hitting me they're not skipping neutral, they are still playing footsies, just better footsies. Ryu and Ken's neutral may be slightly lacking but their reward is significantly higher than most characters and their confirms ring true on most of the cast which is a pretty strong benefit to have, particularly when you kill someone by touching them at 60?

I'm not making any conjecture about their tier placement but I think their character archetype and niche is actually functional this patch and I think they'll be seeing more usage as a result.

 

[DunnoBro]

Since the comparison to Mario's fireball came up: Mario can maintain his aerial momentum when he throws his fireball. As in, he can actually approach with it, retreat with it, and take advantage of b reverses and wavebounces with it. What makes this great for Mario is that he can force a block/other favorable reaction with fireball so he can grab a shielding foe or punish another action, or he can retreat to safety & discourage approaches with retreating fireballs. This is truly a zoning tool in this capacity, since he can control the space he wants with this projectile. Compare that to Hadouken/Shakenutsu, which leaves Ryu in a fixed vertical position when he uses it in the air. He doesn't have the aerial flexibility to use his projectile in the same way as fireball to truly control space or maintain a desired range from his opponent.

I think you're overlooking Mario has to use his mobility with Fireballs. Otherwise they become unsafe on hit anything short of a roll distance. It actually controls neutral space way worse than Shaku, honestly.

It's better in advantage/disadvantage due to the downward angle, but Fireball is pretty clearly directly inferior to Shaku in neutral. (As it should be, since Fireballs are supposed to compliment FLUDD.)

The shield/hitstun more than make up for Ryu's lack of mobility. To the point he clearly has a similar, probably superior flowchart since it actually covers dash-in unlike Mario.

Pills might've been the better comparison. Due to a lack of mobility being compensated by greater shield pressure, and on-hit reward.

 

[The_Bookworm]

https://mobile.twitter.com/gsmVoiD/status/1135387191155286016
So it seems VoiD no longer plans to main Pichu and will instead look through his secondaries to see which fits better while keeping Pichu as a secondary for certain MUs.

Considering that the things that make more stressful to play has been enhanced further in 3.1.0, I can see why. Regardless, there is still plenty of top talent for Pichu, like with players like Nietono, Tachyon, and NAKAT. We finally got a Pichu in top 8 in a tournament that isn't VoiD.


Dabuz is also planning on dropping . Throughout Ultimate, he wasn't really having fun with Olimar, and the nerfs in 3.1.0 further boosted that. The issue is that I really don't see any upper tiered options left for Dabuz that is on-par with his Olimar. Rosalina is still mid-tier at best, his Greninja still has quite a bit of seasoning to go, and his Palutena, while great, also kind of doubt he can go really far with her alone. We will have to wait and see.
For Olimar himself, players like Shuton, Myran, Rich Brown, and ImHip still exists (they former two played a worse version of Olimar for 4 years, so this doesn't really affect their position on dropping him or not) and is probably still going to be rocking with him.


I have a hot take here: I think is still probably going to be top 5, if not, then top 10 definitely.
When looking under a scope, the nerfs to her isn't as significant as the nerfs to Pichu and Olimar.

• Forward air nerf makes it KO not until about 7% later. Even if it doesn't KO, it will still put the opponent in a bad position offstage. The move's abilities in neutral hasn't been touched whatsoever. For the most part, you are probably not going to notice much difference.
• The 3 frames additional lag for Vegetable is honestly barely noticeable. She still plucks her turnips decently quick, and it is now the middle ground between pre-patch Ultimate turnip and SSB4 turnip (frame 37 (pre-patch Ult), 40 (3.1.0 Ult), 43 (SSB4)). I don't really see this change affecting her much at all.
• Edit: Forgot about sibe B nerf. Previosly shielding the move does absolutely nothing for the defender. This made her side B one of the most annoying moves in the game. This change will make this move less obnoxious, while it still retains its speed, power, and recovery abilities.
• Her biggest nerf is to her back throw. It pretty much lost all of its KO power, aside from maybe on the platforms of Kalos League. It was definitely not the best KO'ing back throw out there to begin with, so while it does hurt, the loss isn't that big (imagine Ness and Zelda losing their KO throws :o ).
• Removal of held item attacks is a bit of an indirect nerf. Not a huge nerf, but a bit of a jab on her.
• Jab and up B buffs are not very significant, especially the latter change. However...
• The forward golf club buff is starting to turn out to be a bigger buff than I expected. The move now has mad KO power. In a matter of days, Japan labbers have already found some crazy stuff with it. An example includes:

Ver3.1.0ピーチ pic.twitter.com/V4DM4JBmqj

— キクノ (@Kiku_No28) May 31, 2019

At the same time, her amazing damage output is relatively untouched, while her neutral game, edgeguarding, and disadvantage hasn't been changed too much. The character is still a top tier threat in my eyes.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

So they make it harder to do Luigi's 0 to death, Ices desync, but not Peach's insane combos?

 

[Nekoo]

So they make it harder to do Luigi's 0 to death, Ices desync, but not Peach's insane combos?

Basically yes.
Peach still have her crazy damage output and some janky Hitbox there and there.

I still think that Float-cancel is a stupid mechanics with it's 1.0 damage instead of the usual multiplier for Aerials when you see how dumb the combo game can go on and on-

The F-air and side-b change are nice, but I still think that adding slightly more lag to cancel an aerial with float would have been better. But it would have destroyed the characters so I'm not sure

 

[DunnoBro]

I think the 3-frame turnip nerf was largely for the VERY common interaction of Peach throwing Turnip Deep Offstage, demanding opponents either jump over it and going high (which turnip/peach bomber covers very well) or go low, and THEN have another turnip ready to 2-frame with. Killing most characters without said jumps.

(Or I guess just the rain of low-committal turnip edgeguards)

Samora does this literally every time vs characters he can't just float edgeguard. Hopefully this nerf adds some variety to her otherwise very linear edgeguarding flowchart.

Blaster 2-frame nerf was clearly just to deter over-reliance in neutral. Letting people gain more ground on repeated use, but not directly enabling too much punishing. (Except maybe better punishes point-blank on shield)

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think the 3-frame turnip nerf was specifically for the VERY common interaction of Peach throwing Turnip Deep Offstage, demanding opponents either jump over it and going high (which turnip/peach bomber covers very well) or go low, and THEN have another turnip ready to 2-frame with. Killing most characters without said jumps.

Samora does this literally every time vs characters he can't just float edgeguard. Hopefully this nerf adds some variety to her otherwise very linear edgeguarding flowchart.

Blaster 2-frame nerf was clearly just to deter over-reliance in neutral. Letting people gain more ground on repeated use, but not directly enabling too much punishing. (Except maybe better punishes point-blank on shield)

That is true, the turnip pull need is probably for that interaction. However, I am unsure if the 3 frame turnip nerf actually does anything significant for that offstage interaction. She still pulls her turnips rather fast.

She might need to do something else than double turnips for specific instances, but I am wondering if the nerf made the overall interaction different.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I swear I love these new Diddy buffs! He’s so much better now thanks to the recovery buffs alone. I think that alone gives him an off stage edgeguarding game for the first time ever. A fresh B Air or F Air can do wonders off stage, and these options help Diddy finish off opponents much earlier. And of course the new D Air is also a lovely new option that’s more than welcome.

I believe Diddy is a High Tier now if only because he has a good matchup against Joker, has a stronger stage presence now like before, has a F5 U Smash that can actually kill, and of course his juggles. I believe he’s got a great future coming and am now very enthusiastic that my main is viable yet again!

 

[Fenriraga]

Joker is absolutely great, but he is in no way the best character in the game. The majority of this is Leo just being arguably top of the food chain right now. Top 15 for sure, at least, if not top 10.

My fear (and seemingly Leo as as well, if his interview with Hbox is any indication) is that Joker is going to fall into the same put as Pichu, Peach and Olimar, when I honestly don't think he's on that level. Then again, I main him, so I don't really have room to talk since I was particularly pleased with Pichu and Olimar's changes (But give Olimar a bigger shield, like yikes, that's just mean.)

The point being, Leo is the only prominent Joker right now, and it still hasn't even been two months. So it's way too early to start labeling him as pay-to-win like some people have been.

Joker has prominent faults. Leo just plays past them.

 

[DunnoBro]

I still think 20% meter on stock 2/3 start is dumb, and this is best Shown by Leo actually losing the first stock every set vs Tweek despite winning and even 2-stocking him.

This also happened a lot at smash n splash, and pretty much robbed Marss at Momocon game 5. (2 stocks 1 Arsene)

Personally, if Joker's Gun-Based Ledge/Corner Traps advance further, I can easily see him being nerf-worthy. (Especially if you consider nintendo's atrocious track record with DLC balancing. I honestly feel like they purposely make the third-parties better as some kind of exposure deal at this point.)

 

[Heracr055]

I think you're overlooking Mario has to use his mobility with Fireballs. Otherwise they become unsafe on hit anything short of a roll distance. It actually controls neutral space way worse than Shaku, honestly.

It's better in advantage/disadvantage due to the downward angle, but Fireball is pretty clearly directly inferior to Shaku in neutral. (As it should be, since Fireballs are supposed to compliment FLUDD.)

The shield/hitstun more than make up for Ryu's lack of mobility. To the point he clearly has a similar, probably superior flowchart since it actually covers dash-in unlike Mario.

Pills might've been the better comparison. Due to a lack of mobility being compensated by greater shield pressure, and on-hit reward.

Again, this comes down to how easy it is in general it is to avoid/break either variation of fireball. So the shield/hitstun that you mentioned will not be of much consequence if people are avoiding them in general. He can also only have one on screen at a time, so it's really not that great at controlling space except if he's trying to get his foes to jump over it and punish that; however, the "fireball trap" of Street Fighter doesn't even work here because of how relatively slow the fireballs are and how long the cooldown on the move is. Again, I want to tie this back to the point that Ryu cannot zone or camp with his projectiles.

I want to go back a bit so I can refresh what argument I'm making:
1) I'm projecting that the hype surrounding the Shotos (specifically Ken, who many now think are broken due to his low % combos that appear to convert to death on Twitter posts/vods) is premature and will end in disappointment, once people discover that playing the Shotos comes with strong disadvantages in several aspects. And I believe these disadvantages mean that the Shotos will not be the top tier everyone is fearing, but may have potential as a strong counterpick.
2) I think Deluge's arguments and evidence he cites to counteract my hypothesis are, for the most part, incorrect. It's fine to say that the hype might be real and that they disagree with me, but the points brought up are not sufficient arguments (Ryu being touted as a good zoner is flat out wrong, specifically with the combination of the "3" variants of projectiles and, incredulously, Tatsumaki as zoning tools). I personally think he has a basic understanding of the characters and not the actual knowledge of the characters (or is just theorycrafting like the others caught in the hypetrain are doing), otherwise the arguments being made would be different.
3) The posts I see in response to my initial post seem to avoid making the call on whether the Shotos will end up being top/solo viable or not. TTTTTsd makes better arguments about how shielding is worse in this game, which gives the perception that the Shotos should be better equipped than in 4. That is true, but there are notable high and top tiers that don't even give the Shotos that luxury of up close & personal space (Palutena, Inkling, Zero Suit Samus, and Pikachu come to mind). And TTTTTsd reminds me to clarify what I mean by my phrasing of "throwing footsies out the window." The Shotos have attacks with apparent strengths and weaknesses, in that their design is built on being punishable if their moves are not on point. The same cannot be said of overtuned tools that other high to top tier characters have that are intangible or super safe (think Pikachu QA, ZSS Flip Jump, Olimar USmash, and Peach/Daisy side b where retreating float after the hit makes it essentially safe on block). Anyways, yeah I think that the Shotos don't have what it takes to be top/solo viable and I haven't seen a persuasive attempt to prove otherwise.

 

[PK Gaming]

Wow..lets not go crazy here. I would say Joker is looking potentiall top-tier. Especailly in 3.1.0 with the nerfs top-tiers got. But lets wait a bit before we cry Smash 4 Bayo or Cloud on him

I never implied anything of the sort. Joker being the best character is a neutral statement on my part.

But yes, I think Mkleo is by far and away the best Smash Bros Ultimate player atm. Nobody else even comes close right now.

 

[IsmaR]

While I don't doubt the significance factored in by Leo's skill/caliber as a player, I do agree it's going to take a while before we see counterplay optimized as well.

Many are at a point where they are still approaching the Joker MU as they would other characters, leading to such extremes (Arsene meter burns out slowly, realistically players will need to learn to stall out/wait on the respawn platform rather than immediately jump back in, but heat of the moment sets/most opt not to)

I definitely do think we'll see a rise of Joker players soon enough, and see whether or not the success isn't just limited to one player (Zackray, VoiD and others already put in work so I know it isn't just one, but to the same degree of consistency).

 

[Fenriraga]

In regards to the Shotos, while their buffs were absolutely helpful, their primary problems were pretty much untouched. Rather, the things they were already decent at were heavily amplified and made more consistent. I have SO much fun playing Ken, but let me tell you, I have NO idea how to approach because it's so difficult. I think Ryu's Hado buff helps him out a bit in that regard, at least giving him a better neutral tool, but still, it's very easy to overwhelm them.

 

[PK Gaming]

Personally, if Joker's Gun-Based Ledge/Corner Traps advance further, I can easily see him being nerf-worthy. (Especially if you consider nintendo's atrocious track record with DLC balancing. I honestly feel like they purposely make the third-parties better as some kind of exposure deal at this point.)

Joker may or may not be overtuned, but there's a substancial gulf in quality between his design and Smash 4 DLC characters. The fact that he didn't immediately turn heads should speak to the level of craft put into his design, which makes me confident the next DLC character wont pointlessly shake up the metagame. "They made the characters OP for marketing" feels like a misread imo. It's clear Joker is the way he is because the Smash Ultimate devs are passionate about Persona 5.

 

[TTTTTsd]

3) The posts I see in response to my initial post seem to avoid making the call on whether the Shotos will end up being top/solo viable or not. TTTTTsd makes better arguments about how shielding is worse in this game, which gives the perception that the Shotos should be better equipped than in 4. That is true, but there are notable high and top tiers that don't even give the Shotos that luxury of up close & personal space (Palutena, Inkling, Zero Suit Samus, and Pikachu come to mind). And TTTTTsd reminds me to clarify what I mean by my phrasing of "throwing footsies out the window." The Shotos have attacks with apparent strengths and weaknesses, in that their design is built on being punishable if their moves are not on point. The same cannot be said of overtuned tools that other high to top tier characters have that are intangible or super safe (think Pikachu QA, ZSS Flip Jump, Olimar USmash, and Peach/Daisy side b where retreating float after the hit makes it essentially safe on block). Anyways, yeah I think that the Shotos don't have what it takes to be top/solo viable and I haven't seen a persuasive attempt to prove otherwise.

Personally, I think this issue of "they can get clapped in neutral" (essentially) was also a thing in Smash 4 except they had less ways to deal with it and had a harder time checking approaches at the same time (Dash > shield, unpunishable dashgrabs, etc.) so I think on baseline level they function better in this game ASSUMING their punishes work (prior to this patch they didn't really have great punish games truthfully, but this patch makes the characters actually function). I think another argument worth noting is that they have the ability to run and do their grounded normals freely, which means if they catch something they can now just run up, Utilt > Proximity Heavy Jab > DP, which does a lot of damage and usually kills?

I'm not going to claim they're suddenly top tier (at least not in public, I have PRIVATE opinions =P) but I think they're worth considering this patch if you're willing to put in the time!

Also people should use their Ftilt now. Seriously. Its hilariously disjointed (actually hits beyond the foot now).

Also worth noting that functioning better or even being a better character than you were in the previous entry can mean nothing or it can mean the entire world, depending on the metagame.

 

[blackghost]

I'm not going to claim they're suddenly top tier (at least not in public, I have PRIVATE opinions =P) but I think they're worth considering this patch if you're willing to put in the time!

I'll say it. I think they are high tier. The issue is most players in smash dont know how to even approach the game as a shoto. Ken's approach is a little closer to a normal smash character than ryu but he's still a steep learning curve. A character that hits THAT hard and has disjoints is a good character. Usually a very good character.

Regarding zack's performance with bayonetta at SnS, it was impressive and it was enlightening.
1. zack is THAT good.
2. people still dont know the Matchup (how in the world did scatt get wiped out by bayonetta while playing snake?)
3. without a kill power increase she has a glass ceiling on consistent placement. when you routinely dont kill until north of 180 even having opponents live into 200s you can't win tournaments.