Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[DelugeFGC]

This shield poke thing is legit a problem. I didn't begin to notice it until last night, but some characters it just feels like you're never safe from unless you get spot dodge reads on their attacks like no tomorrow, and you perpetually have to stay at a distance because his disadvantage is naturally so poor that it's not worth the risk.

This one bothers me.

 

[Omastar]

Shoutout to Wizzrobe, the guy is in top 8 for both Melee and Ultimate at an S tier event. Took out a ton of heavy hitters including Tweek. Reminds me a lot of Zackray, with the amount of patience he exhibits in neutral. Doesn't really overextend, solid fundamentals and maybe a carryover from the Falcon in Melee, but the techchasing from Wizzy with the Wolf was crazy. Excited to see what else his Wolf could do tomorrow.

 

[Rocketjay8]

This shield poke thing is legit a problem. I didn't begin to notice it until last night, but some characters it just feels like you're never safe from unless you get spot dodge reads on their attacks like no tomorrow, and you perpetually have to stay at a distance because his disadvantage is naturally so poor that it's not worth the risk.

This one bothers me.

Man, Olimar mains never catch a break. Oh well, they probably will fix that issue by next patch.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Man, Olimar mains never catch a break. Oh well, they probably will fix that issue by next patch.

Look I've been transparent how I feel about his nerfs otherwise, but his shield not being made bigger to compensate is just an annoying oversight that causes playing the character to be unintentionally problematic in certain MU's. Your shield is literally useless, think Melee G&W shield, it's THAT bad on some attacks.

I know my character was, problematic, prior to this patch.. but not even Snake deserves something like this. It's not the intended design, and you can tell.

 

[Yonder]

In light of Leon absolutely crushing Cosmos...

Has Bowser normally been considered a bad MU for Inkling? Like even with some sub-optimal play on Cosmos' part that was just brutal. Leon didn't lose a stock for how long again? Sheesh.

All i know is that Inkling can't rapid jab Bowser, which is usually a huge damage racker from them. Bowser had like, no ink on him the whole set.

Leon almost beat Samsora too, last stock last hit. Aside from the offstage problem (turnips wreck Bowser...but the Mu will become easier in the new patch) the MU looks doable.

Bowser does have a shot at best heavy in the game. DK has fallen off, and Bowser is like,what, top 20 in results already?

Nair to bair is legit nasty kill confirm at like, 60+.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Yowch.

I wonder who's the consistently top character as of now, and I mean as in number 1 rather than just being among the others in S Tier.

 

[Flon]

In light of Leon absolutely crushing Cosmos...

Has Bowser normally been considered a bad MU for Inkling? Like even with some sub-optimal play on Cosmos' part that was just brutal. Leon didn't lose a stock for how long again? Sheesh.

It's also a good match that demonstrates just how much a game can snowball if you aren't properly respecting what the heavies are capable of. A lot of instinctive dash grab, air dodge and punish attempts were immediately denied and cost Cosmos his entire stock. I think people can really underestimate just how fast and capable Bowser is when he's actually close to you.

 

[Minordeth]

Wizzrobe vs Tweek was a trip.

As one of the commentators noted, Wizzrobe plays a tech chase heavy character in Melee (Falcon), so it stands to reason he would do well with another tech chase heavy character.

In this case, I don't think people had been exposed to a Wolf that aims to set up tech chases as a fundamental part of their gameplan. Of course, Wolf seems designed around them, much like say, Chrom or Roy. A ridiculous dash attack, scooping and wide-ranging smash attacks, a good grab, and a super fast initial dash all allow Wolf to extend his advantage via tech chase scenarios.

What made him difficult for Tweek specifically, is that he is essentially Defensive Tweek. Wizzy has stupid-fast reaction times, and/or stupid-fast situation recognition. As another poster noted (I think, Shaya ) about Zero, Tweek is also a reaction heavy player, and relied on that reaction speed throughout Smash 4 to set up situations where he could simple out-react his opponent.

Wizzy continually used his shield to bait attacks from Tweek, which Tweek knew, of course. Tweek ultimately seemed like he couldn't figure out what to do when Wizzrobe was shielding. Wizzy caught Tweek's Wario's Bair against his shield, caught his Roy with Nair, and generally stymied one of the best players in the world by constantly resetting neutral, forcing approaches, and holding shield.

EDIT: Wizzrobe literally forced Tweek to approach him at 160% in game 4. Almost any other player would count that stock over, but he wanted to extend his lead even farther.

 

[G. Stache]

In light of Leon absolutely crushing Cosmos...

Has Bowser normally been considered a bad MU for Inkling? Like even with some sub-optimal play on Cosmos' part that was just brutal. Leon didn't lose a stock for how long again? Sheesh.

Watching the VOD now and I can already tell Cosmos played shook the whole set. Between the crowd being that hype and the momentum that Bowser gains when he crushes your stock sub 100 percent it’s hard to come back in that sort of environment and Cosmos just couldn’t. Lots of mess ups from him as an individual but tbh I also don’t see anything in inklings kit besides offstage splat bombs and other strong edgeguarding tools that particularly scare Bowser. Obviously low to mid percent combos and juggles can take Bowser for a ride, but welcome to 75% of the roster. Inkling isn’t really able to strictly camp out Bowser as well as you’d think due to Bowsers very good movement speed and big hitboxes and Bowser can make up any lead inkling gets from combos in 2 or 3 hits. Inklings rapid jab is also always tough guy armored through so that’s a good tool used for ink/damage racking and close combat fighting that’s just not usable when fighting Bowser. I could go on about how most of Bowsers usable to great moves that can be used in his neutral game can and will become kill moves at some point in the match, or how side b makes shielding against Bowser close range inherently a big risk but if you don’t shield that also risks getting hit with a very strong normal or aerial, or how god tier Bowser’s u tilt is in general. But that’s digressing a bit from the point. I just don’t see how inkling is supposed to consistently keep Bowser at bay enough to really stop him from wrecking train on inkling and nor do I see inkling able to really come back from a deposit when Bowser has stock lead and momentum going his way.

LeoN’s Bowser was able to play exactly the way he wanted to against Cosmo’s inkling the entire match and inkling was unable to take back control. Part of that I’m sure was the individual stress on Cosmos that I briefly mentioned from the start, but part of that is on inkling not having something to really “jank” Bowser out by either keeping him in disadvantage or commanding the pace of the neutral game. Olimar has Pikmin, Joker has Arsene, Ike and Palu have the deadliest Nairs I’ve ever seen, Marcina has a disjointed stick that constantly swat Bowser away, and inkling has...roller? Inkling is obviously still a great character but compared to other certain top and high tiers, a character as explosive and as durable as Bowser really doesn’t fear what Inkling has while inkling has to constantly respect the power that Bowser packs. But if anyone wants to talk more from inklings point of view then please be my guest. I’m positive I don’t know everything about inkling and if there’s something I’m missing about the character I’d like to know what I’m forgetting

 

[NairWizard]

As another poster noted (I think, Shaya ) about Zero, Tweek is also a reaction heavy player

That was me, and it's very common for defensive reactive players to lose to younger defensive reactive players. You can't outreact youth. In this case wizzrobe and tweek are the same age, but wizzrobe definitely seems faster on the draw, to compare to old western duels.

Keep in mind though that tweek is not always consistently on point. He has unstoppable highs and then mediocre lows. When he's playing confidently and full of adrenaline his reaction time is faster than wizzrobes peak and he would likely have won had this tournament been frostbite or goml.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Two Zeldas in Top 32 further show to me that this character is far above the low-tier many people put her in for apparently no reason.
You could say that she fell in places from 17th and 25th to 33rd respectively but at that level of play that's pretty much cherry-picking or something like that.

I wonder if she will continue to fall or if both Ven and Mystearica are able to place this well in upcoming tournaments. I'd like to definitely see it :3.

 

[NotLiquid]

In light of Leon absolutely crushing Cosmos...

Has Bowser normally been considered a bad MU for Inkling? Like even with some sub-optimal play on Cosmos' part that was just brutal. Leon didn't lose a stock for how long again? Sheesh.

Inkling vs Bowser isn't really a bad MU for Inkling and I believe most players think it swings positive for her. The problem is Inkling is generally denied one of their most potent neutral moves, which is rapid jab.

Cosmos straight up did not know the MU, he admitted that much and you could tell by multiple of his plays/decisions in the game that his net inexperience snowballed. For one, switching to Corrin - that was a pure panic move when he settled on his Smash 4 complacency; "swords are the easy answer" as we so often see. But more importantly was how he used his Inkling approach options. There were multiple times in set when Cosmos attempted to jab Bowser, but instantly got cold feet; backing off even after successfully connecting one jab. This is already when it was clear LeoN was in Cosmos' head, because he was too afraid to use what is one of her safest neutral options. Despite rapid jab being an extremely good move to lose in this matchup, the gentleman is indispensable for a matchup like this in order to keep Bowser honest. I can't recall a lot of DTilt usage (not sure myself if it low profiles anything in Bowser's kit, or if it can setup a read/combo situation given his frame).

There was also very little Splat Bomb usage; a tool that is a must in the MU (especially when you can't use jab to ink him) and keeps Bowser's neutral in check. Despite Bowser's great ground mobility, his air mobility isn't the greatest, so Inkling will generally want to use Splat Bombs to cover her mid-range coefficient while spacing with yee traditional BAir usage. Inkling's main goal in this MU is to get Bowser off-stage; that's where he struggles, and gets susceptible to edgeguards and frametraps.

Cosmos' biggest mistake was generally autopiloting off of the traditional assumptions that heavies are easy targets and as such going for way too many grabs and aggressive landings (and I guess counterpicking Town & City twice which - I know it's Cosmos' favorite stage but - is very much a double edged sword against a character like Bowser, not just because of survivability but because those platforms benefit him). I can't blame him for that because grabs are how you get Inkling's most damaging strings, and Bowser being a massive target means he's subject to a bunch of custom combos that are unique to him. But that aside, Inkling has a fairly modest grab range that's dwarfed by Bowser's. Because of that, misspacing or abusing grabs can ultimately be the factor that decides your entire stock.

Heavies like Bowser want to get into your head, they want you to regress into a "land aggressively/dodge liberally" mentality. We generally see this with players like Nairo, including when he goes Ganondorf. LeoN was very much in Cosmos' head, and when you don't know the MU, that's when you've already lost. Against Bowser, with Inkling, you need to play a little lame, since aggro is what he wants. Cosmos generally doesn't do that, or at least hasn't done that.

From what I hear, LeoN has a lot of Inkling experience in his locals, so I'm not too surprised if so that Cosmos' panic Inkling strats did not pan out.

EDIT: On a separate side note, despite that legendary beat down, this is the first national in a while that had some pretty good Inkling representation in Top 48. We obviously had Cosmos, but there was also Rags (predominantly an Inkling main but he also used both DK and Greninja this tournament) who went out at 33rd, and also sinnyboo242, who went out at 33rd going solo Inkling. There was also Wishes, who jumped back to his old flame for a short while after being down against Zack's Bayonetta - and frankly did better against Zack's Peach than his PT. Overall, that's pretty good representation in a 1600 man tournament, given that people often make a point of her quantity being lacking, as well as not a lot of top Inkling players being US-based.

 

[Rizen]

Smash'N'Splash 5 Top 8

Winner's
Ally vs VoiD
Marss vs MkLeo


Loser's
NAKAT vs Samsora
Wizzrobe vs Dabuz

The top 8 supports Nintendo's nerfing decisions.

______________________________

So, how does and feel about these patches?

The previous patch universally nerfed projectiles which hurt zoners like them due to parries having less lag and projectiles doing less shield damage. However parries are rarely used and neither Link relied on shield breaks so they got off barely scathed.

This patch didn't buff or nerf either of them. Instead it nerfed top tiers and buffed lower characters. This creates a weird dynamic where characters on both ends moved closer to them. Lower characters who got buffed will do better and power creep up to the Links and top characters will do worse. So if the Links liked the patch depends on the region they're in and if players will stick with the nerfed characters. Does their region have a lot of Peach or Pichu players? Then the Links will do better. Does the region have really good CF or Lucario players? Then they'll do worse. Overall the Links didn't really win or lose the patches. They're still good but not top tier characters who will see some success.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Smash'N'Splash 5 Top 8

Winner's
Ally vs VoiD
Marss vs MkLeo


Loser's
NAKAT vs Samsora
Wizzrobe vs Dabuz

The top 8 supports Nintendo's nerfing decisions.

______________________________

So, how does and feel about these patches?

The previous patch universally nerfed projectiles which hurt zoners like them due to parries having less lag and projectiles doing less shield damage. However parries are rarely used and neither Link relied on shield breaks so they got off barely scathed.

This patch didn't buff or nerf either of them. Instead it nerfed top tiers and buffed lower characters. This creates a weird dynamic where characters on both ends moved closer to them. Lower characters who got buffed will do better and power creep up to the Links and top characters will do worse. So if the Links liked the patch depends on the region they're in and if players will stick with the nerfed characters. Does their region have a lot of Peach or Pichu players? Then the Links will do better. Does the region have really good CF or Lucario players? Then they'll do worse. Overall the Links didn't really win or lose the patches. They're still good but not top tier characters who will see some success.

I kinda feel these patches could help some characters that had some severe problems with the Pichu and Peach matchup. And of course with Olimar. Swordies will do much better now against Olimar, but so will everyone. But having a good disjoint should profit here more.

As a Zelda player, I really welcome these nerfs because these MU's will be a lot easier to deal with. Don't know if you can say even but it has gotten much closer since Peach lost two of her most common ways to kill Zelda (fAir and bThrow). Sure, it's still powerful but combined with a laggier turnip pull you have more time to set things up and you don't get spammed with projectiles during her float. That's a big difference.
Pichu has gotten bigger, is therefore easier to hit and the self-harm incrwase is huge, especially against a heavy hitter like Link or Zelda. That MU should now be easier for her than Pikachu, who I also think is the much better character now. The self-harm increase is really huge since it adds up so quickly. Ftilt doesn't even kill Zelda, a pretty light character, at the ledge of Battlefield at 125% and that was tested with no DI. Meaning she will survive much longer with DI. Ftilt is no kill move anymore, that's for sure.
On the other hand, Bayo is a really pain now. I hated that character already but now it's even worse. I don't know if her combos are fixed now but she can preassure the shield much more safe and it looks pretty much unpunishable for slower characters at least.

Overall, I think the patch was good for her. Lucario and Ryu/Ken aren't really problematic MUs, but they caught up at the very least. I'm quite happy with this patch.

Kinda interested how the Diddy MU will develop. I think it's a huge disadvantage for her but we'll see. Dakpo apparently moved to Vegas where he plays Ven. So there will be material of high/top-level play of these two chars facing each other.

 

[Daisycakes]

Lucina's fair nerf may seem strange to many competitive players since bair is seen as the problem aerial, but I think this change is similar to the Chrom's aether nerf where the change is meant for more than one level of play. On a casual/lower levels, it's far easier throw out fairs and smack people around compared to bair which requires a certain level of finesse to properly use so they nerfed its kill power so those levels of play, the move would be a little less abusive since most of those players would be at a loss on how deal with her fair.

It's likely a targeted nerf for her edgeguarding. Since fair has less KBG you are less likely to be sent off stage when she hits you with it.

 

[NotLiquid]

Ryuga is dropping Ike and going Roy/Joker.

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Pretty big blow for the character. Between this and Leo, looks like speculation that he may be losing favor with players is coming to pass.

 

[DunnoBro]

but not even Snake deserves something like this.

This is actually exactly the kind of thing Snake deserves tbh.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ryuga is dropping Ike and going Roy/Joker.

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Pretty big blow for the character. Between this and Leo, looks like speculation that he may be losing favor with players is coming to pass.

If you want another Ike to follow, look up Ravenking. He's in the same region as Maister, has won at least one tournament and got 13th at Combo Breaker.

Losing Ryuga hurts obviously, but at the same time he didn't seem to be breaking out as much with Ike in this game compared to early SSB4. Far from bad, but still.

Still got Marrs using Ike as a pocket character semi-regularly, and still got Ike randomly showing up in the upper parts of massive tournaments. I wouldn't say he's overall losing favor, at least not at this point. Joker ended up grabbing a lot of interest from the general sword community though, got MKLeo, Ryuga, Nicko (I think it was him, one of the Shulks starting to use Joker a fair bit): enough overlap to make it a rather tempting new character to try out.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Nicko (I think it was him, one of the Shulks starting to use Joker a fair bit): enough overlap to make it a rather tempting new character to try out.

Nicko is indeed planning on co-maining him with Shulk, mostly because he is a big Persona 5 fan.


Sol, after many hours of labbing 3.1.0 Mac, has made these two posts on Twitter.

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Mac is honestly two buffs away from being a viable character: fix side B and increase his jump height. While I don't agree that Mac is lower mid (still low tier imo), the buffs Mac got in 3.1.0 is amazing.

 

[bc1910]

Yowch.

I wonder who's the consistently top character as of now, and I mean as in number 1 rather than just being among the others in S Tier.

Snake is the most likely contender in my opinion going by current results and MUs. Snake being the best is a testament to this game’s frankly remarkable balance though. He is still a character with clear weaknesses and even a couple of iffy/bad MUs (G&W, Mega Man, Pokemon Trainer, potentially Ness).

Outside of Snake I do think there are 10 or so top tiers who are virtually equal in strength, plus wildcards in Chroy, Joker, ZSS and even Shulk. I imagine Snake will be a commonly agreed upon #1 but the ordering of #2 to around #15 will be highly contentious.

I think that Peach, a previously strong contender for best in the game, could fall a bit further than I anticipated upon brushing off the nerfs at first glance. Having just watched Samsora vs Leo at SNS5, it’s becoming apparent even pre-nerf how much difficulty Peach can have against highly mobile characters with strong disadvantage states (plot twist: she’s had this weakness since Melee). A lot of the meta-leading characters are brawlers, swordies and zoners with iffy disadvantage states which are exactly the kind of MUs Peach excels in. The thunder rats are anomalies whom one might expect to do well against Peach, but their complete lack of range combined with their good-but-not-stellar mobility (their average initial dashes and fall speeds let them down) outside of their committal Up Bs give Peach the advantage.

On the other hand, characters like Joker, Greninja and to a lesser extent Wolf can not only outcamp Peach, they can also outmanoeuvre her. Her tricky float movement is incredible at close range but if she can’t get close in the first place, it’s not as useful. These characters also don’t crumble the second they get hit due to having multiple strong options in disadvantage (this applies less to Wolf). Yes, Leo is amazing and makes Joker look amazing, but it’s not like Samsora isn’t a top 10 player right now either. I think it’s fair to say that it’s not just the player skill gap giving Sam trouble in these kinds of MUs.

 

[Rizen]

I was against buffs for but after seeing him get barely any results time after time I'm warming up to the idea; especially if characters who weren't terrible like Diddy are getting buffs. YL is too undertuned. He needs for Ftilt, Fair, Dair and Uair to kill earlier and maybe a slight weight increase so he's TL's weight. The devs were so scared of making him an overpowered character that they made him too under powered.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I was against buffs for but after seeing him get barely any results time after time I'm warming up to the idea; especially if characters who weren't terrible like Diddy are getting buffs. YL is too undertuned. He needs for Ftilt, Fair, Dair and Uair to kill earlier and maybe a slight weight increase so he's TL's weight. The devs were so scared of making him an overpowered character that they made him too under powered.

Rizen you still think is high-tier. Because you are taking about him recently makes it it seem you are reapidly losing faith in him as a character.

I think with the 3.1.0 patch the "high-tier" or even top tier may be have to revaluated now. / likey may drop down out of top into somewhere into high.
Meanwhile we characters like are getting a lot better results than other high tiers ( and even some top-tiers) even before the patch. I think they will either be the top-of high tier or potentially reach top-tier. ZSS and Joker super-appriciate the Pichu nerfs for sure as she was one of their more difficult MU's

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Snake is the most likely contender in my opinion going by current results and MUs. Snake being the best is a testament to this game’s frankly remarkable balance though. He is still a character with clear weaknesses and even a couple of iffy/bad MUs (G&W, Mega Man, Pokemon Trainer, potentially Ness).

Outside of Snake I do think there are 10 or so top tiers who are virtually equal in strength, plus wildcards in Chroy, Joker, ZSS and even Shulk. I imagine Snake will be a commonly agreed upon #1 but the ordering of #2 to around #15 will be highly contentious.

I think that Peach, a previously strong contender for best in the game, could fall a bit further than I anticipated upon brushing off the nerfs at first glance. Having just watched Samsora vs Leo at SNS5, it’s becoming apparent even pre-nerf how much difficulty Peach can have against highly mobile characters with strong disadvantage states (plot twist: she’s had this weakness since Melee). A lot of the meta-leading characters are brawlers, swordies and zoners with iffy disadvantage states which are exactly the kind of MUs Peach excels in. The thunder rats are anomalies whom one might expect to do well against Peach, but their complete lack of range combined with their good-but-not-stellar mobility (their average initial dashes and fall speeds let them down) outside of their committal Up Bs give Peach the advantage.

On the other hand, characters like Joker, Greninja and to a lesser extent Wolf can not only outcamp Peach, they can also outmanoeuvre her. Her tricky float movement is incredible at close range but if she can’t get close in the first place, it’s not as useful. These characters also don’t crumble the second they get hit due to having multiple strong options in disadvantage (this applies less to Wolf). Yes, Leo is amazing and makes Joker look amazing, but it’s not like Samsora isn’t a top 10 player right now either. I think it’s fair to say that it’s not just the player skill gap giving Sam trouble in these kinds of MUs.

Peach mains including have stating this day1. For a character that was *apparently the best character in the game and OMG OP* she legit have to chase down a lot of characters / avoid disjoints from swordies / avoid getting camped out. Peach dislikes 4 things.

Zoners [Palutena / Richter / Ivysaur / Samus / Link / Wolf etc.]
Disjoints [ Ike, Lucina, Shulk, Roy/Chrom ]
Fast characters that have range/disjoints / can outmaneuver her. [ ZSS, Greninja, Joker in Arsene ]
Yoshi (impossible to combo, his nair is incredibly good at stuffing her pressure out, edge-guarding is sketchy.].

Like just practice Peach for a month and then play vs good players and you will see that a lot of MU's are not FREE.
Hell, even Bowser I personally find to be sketchy at times just because his fair is good at edge-guarding her + he doesn't easily although I find it to be in Peach's favor.

legit do not find any of the characters I mentioned fun to fight. She's carried hard by the fact that she has a explosive advantage state and a neutral where she can contest most characters even if she has to chase down and avoid projectiles.

Camping / consistent zoning vs Peach is very effective, trying to rush her down is begging you to get bodied since she's one of the best characters in CQC thanks to her float. Not every playstyle will or should work against every character and it's perplexing that people believe that it should. Peach was overrated and maybe nerfed as a result of it but oh well; Patch Culture is here to stay.

She isn't Smash Sheik / Cloud / Rosa / Diddy where she completely shutdown certain archetypes.

 

[Kiligar]

Rizen you still think YL is high-tier. Because you are taking like you are reapidly losing faith in him as a character

He is high tier.
As for Little Mac, I believe Sol. I’ve seen sone of what the new Mac can do. Here’s what Sol was capable of pre-patch, post patch we’ll see.

 

[Rizen]

Rizen you still think YL is high-tier. Because you are taking like you are reapidly losing faith in him as a character.

I think with the 3.1.0 patch the "high-tier" conecpt is going to shift. / likey may drop down out of top into somewhere into high

is in a weird place in the meta. He's extremely technical yet yields little reward. I'm seeing characters who I thought were worse than him like and consistently outperform him. I think a big part of it is ease of access; YL takes a ton of time and dedication to be effective with but still won't be as good as Inkling, Olimar and Pichu, although it's possible he'll gain popularity after the recent nerfs. Aside from Tweek, who often doesn't play YL, he has no real top player representation and there's not a great reason to invest in him.

This game is a good representation of YL's problems. He's shutting down even with her anti-zoning tools but she almost makes a comeback at the end because YL's CQC is risky and he can't land a kill. Finally he kills her at 191% after fishing for setups for a minute and a half. His noncommittal kill moves, which are what I want to see buffed, are extremely weak. YL frame 1 Dairs Zelda, which is the strongest early hit, and it doesn't kill her. YL can go for smash attacks but only on grounded opponents and if he wiffs they have a lot of lag. Most of my kills come from Fair1>Dsmash. He can Dtilt>jump>upB but it's extremely risky because opponents can fall out of the upB; try it on Fox in training mode at around 100% for example. If YL's spacing is off, he gets the opponent's % and weight wrong or they fall out, YL's in freefall above the opponent.

So, do I think YL's falling out of high tier? Not really, although he might be lower high tier. It's more a problem of him not getting enough reward for how technical he is and therefor being unpopular. It's hard when you're bringing Snake's % up to 160%+ trying to kill then he f6 Utilts you at 100% and you die.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Ok, some personal impressions about Olimar with Zelda . Yes, only online and with lag and I'm by far not a good player but I happen to fight the same Olimar over and over again in Elite smash.
I also played some rounds again against this dude and before the patch, the matches have been pretty much even to a last-stock last-hit scenario. However now it was pretty clear. Pikmin are a lot less scary now and his shield is really awful. You pretty much always poke through it, making his shield really just shield. It barely exist and as Zelda, you can easy shield poke with Nayru. Nayru is also a reflector. It pretty much shuts Olimar completely down when trying to land on him.
That MU looks really in her favor in this patch version.


I really have to say that I hope they release the next patch asap. They should make his shield bigger at the very least. Like, Pichu has bigger hurtboxes and a bigger shield now. I don't really understand why Olimar got a different treatment than Pichu here. It hurts him really and that's quite sad since the other nerfs are already big.
This was posted earlier in the Zelda buff/nerf topic, but I think it should be posted here as well:

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[MrGameguycolor]

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You see, this is why shield poking is a bad mechanic...

 

[blackghost]

while lil mac buffs are pretty evident. I think ken does what mac does just better. I think with ken's changes (not even ryu) it will be a harsh reality for chrom and joker players. ken is simply better in close quarters than they are. ken will routinely get 50 percent from a neutral exchange now. i expect to see ken slowly rise because that is one high learning curve to swallow.

i dont know what impact bayo changes will have on the average player but for captain zack level the changes seem minor but are very important. watching zack's matches there were multiple times when witch time did not come out in time, it may make it out now. there were also multiple times when zack was just barely unsafe due to special usage. he will be safe now. while the killing issue is still present. (shoutouts to bayo fair) she has had her disadvantage state buffed and her combo abilities slightly expanded. she is a real mid tier character imo no0w.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Patching a game is not easy feat much less a game this big, the balance team probably is still relative small to other games, hopeful they fix olimar shield and other multi-hit issues, but the dev team is in the right path.

 

[NotLiquid]

In other character main related news, it looks like Wishes, who's probably seen the greatest success with Pokémon Trainer post-Leffen, may be switching back to focusing on Joker/Inkling. He initially switched from Inkling to PT very early on in the meta and saw an exponential boost in tournament performance, but throughout SnS he mainly ran Inkling until switching back to PT around Day 2, and using Inkling for counterpick purposes. According to his tweets, he's starting to find Pokemon Trainer's disadvantage state across all characters overly limiting, criticizing their overall landing/ledge-get-up options as a bit too gimmicky, while also finding issue with Ivy's whiff punishing and Squirtle's frame data not absolving him of terrible range.

SnS really exacerbated several top pros' blind spots. This was a strange tournament to end this particular patch on.

 

[PK Gaming]

while lil mac buffs are pretty evident. I think ken does what mac does just better. I think with ken's changes (not even ryu) it will be a harsh reality for chrom and joker players. ken is simply better in close quarters than they are. ken will routinely get 50 percent from a neutral exchange now. i expect to see ken slowly rise because that is one high learning curve to swallow.

Joker was never a close quarter brawler though. Most of his damage comes from grab followups and bait & punishes.

 

[G. Stache]

What Young Link really wants I feel are Toon Link’s smash attacks. While YL’s kills at reasonable percents come almost entirely out of set ups and combos, TL is not limited strictly to those kinds of set ups and has access to his up and side smashes: Two moves that are both strong and pretty spammable in neutral, juggling/anti airing and ledge trapping situations. TL’s up smash in particular has extremely little endlag and is a reliable kill move against mid weights at around 120ish percent and beyond. YL doesn’t have access to smash attacks that have as much utility and without a move that YL can just throw out (besides maybe Nair at high percents) it can be really difficult to seal a stock with that character. That being said I don’t really think YL needs any buffs to remain high tier and meta relevant. He obviously has pronounced weaknesses, but his neutral and damage racking remain remarkably good and probably some of the best in the game. That being said I feel as if TL is criminally underrated at this point if he’s viewed as several tiers below the other two links

 

[blackghost]

Joker was never a close quarter brawler though. Most of his damage comes from grab followups and bait & punishes.

joker bait and punishes rely on having superior frame data and movement. joker has to get in at some point to do major damage. with ken having invincible moves that can lead into major damage the risk is much higher not to mention shoryuken is the original "get off me". Plus joker, unlike many other characters, loses more than just his stock if he dies early.

 

[Minordeth]

Ken having a functional game plan doesn’t mean he bypasses the traditional issues he (and Ryu) had.

I’m seeing a lot of hype over his advantage state and kill confirms. Of course, it feels like a flashback to S4 Ryu’s playerbase trying to substitute smart neutral development for getting “that one read.”

Color me more interested for Ryu’s hadoken branch off.

 

[Jampman]

Fatality 3-0s MVD at Dreamhack, pre-patch. Here's the match: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/433504117?t=04h35m44s

Grenade trades don't seem to matter when Falcon can use it as an opportunity to continue a string due to his speed. I'm sure there were cases when panic pulls actually put MVD in specific combo percentages without him really thinking it out. He was being a little careless with grenade tosses in neutral as well, and Fatality recognized his openings and threaded the needle over and over. He had no issue waiting out MVD's options. And again proving the importance of attack cancel bair, with a low-percent string leading to death offstage (Snake's hurtbox and attributes not helping him).

It's exciting seeing how far Fatality has pushed , he's gotten way more consistent with his followups and correctly balanced patience and aggression in that set. That dedication spilling over into the new patch is going to create a monster.

 

[Nekoo]

it will be a harsh reality for chrom and joker players. ken is simply better in close quarters than they are.

Thanks god Chrom have a sword without a sweetspot and like, almost twice the lenght of hitboxes Ken have.
Ken is absolutely fantastic this patch, and I love it, he actually feels like a functional characters, and I absolutely see him rise up soon. But Chrom/Roy will still have the adventage of having Amazing Tech-chase/50-50/ Air speed and run speed that Ken could dream off alongside some janky crazy hitboxes for Chrom's F-smash and tilts

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ken having a functional game plan doesn’t mean he bypasses the traditional issues he (and Ryu) had.

I’m seeing a lot of hype over his advantage state and kill confirms. Of course, it feels like a flashback to S4 Ryu’s playerbase trying to substitute smart neutral development for getting “that one read.”

Color me more interested for Ryu’s hadoken branch off.

Ken by design circumvents one major issue. Being able to jump away/over from him to reset neutral.

If you are at kill percent and you try to simply avoid being on the ground, you may just end up dead anyway.

And Smash 4 Ryu really did not have a choice but to bet it all on hail mary plays. The engine did not allow his neutral to develop past a certain point. Granted it had more room to grow that the Smash 4 playerbase never fully tapped. It definitely had a clear ceiling though and certain MU's showed that.

This is actually one reason I want parry buffed. It is just too easy to run away once your opponent shows that they are superior in neutral/footsies.

Why should you get to avoid fighting me just because you have a projectile? The superior player should have the tools to crush a weaker player.

Every. Single. Time.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Ken by design circumvents one major issue. Being able to jump away/over from him to reset neutral.

If you are at kill percent and you try to simply avoid being on the ground, you may just end up dead anyway.

And Smash 4 Ryu really did not have a choice but to bet it all on hail mary plays. The engine did not allow his neutral to develop past a certain point. Granted it had more room to grow that the Smash 4 playerbase never fully tapped. It definitely had a clear ceiling though and certain MU's showed that.

This is actually one reason I want parry buffed. It is just too easy to run away once your opponent shows that they are superior in neutral/footsies.

Why should you get to avoid fighting me just because you have a projectile? The superior player should have the tools to crush a weaker player.

Every. Single. Time.

That could only ever be true in a game where every single character has the exact same tools. Character match-ups will always be a factor.

 

[The_Bookworm]

There is a new video posted that explains some of the new stuff/buffs specifically can do.

I am personally never going to be skilled with the Shoyos. Never was good with Ryu in SSB4 and that hasn't changed much in Ultimate. However, the stuff he and Ken can do thanks to 3.1.0 looks very hype. ANTi has already expressed interest with picking up Ken in his arsenal (alongside Mario and Lucario).

I also love the fact that the Shoyos have been given more of an identity thanks to 3.1.0. Ryu is more of a zoner and Ken is more of pressure up-your-face character like SSB4 Ryu. It is accurate to the source material as well, and it gives you an incentive to play which one is necessary for a specific matchup (or simply just your personal playstyle).

 

[Emblem Lord]

A defensive tool meant to punish predictability that in fact does NOT punish said behavior is a problem.

Considering the frame data for perfect shield in Ultimate, it really needs to get better.

Yes, I have been ranting.

But we all know it's true.

Perfect Shield is a 5 frame window. Attacker is frozen for 11 extra frames. Defender frozen for 8.

You get 3 extra frames to do something plus whatever recovery frames your opponent would have suffered.

3 measly frames for timing something that is a HARD commitment and could get you killed if you goof.

Come the **** on.

For comparison the parry window in Third Strike is TEN FRAMES. All you do is press forward or down, so the commitment is minimal. Both attacker AND defender are frozen for a total of 16 frames plus a few extra for the attacker. During those freeze frames the defender can cancel the parry recovery into ANY ACTION! Ok, so now you know why Third Strike parry is an abomination and I am not saying Smash Ultimate should mimic it. I just wanted to show an example of what a crazy busted parry is and Smash Ultimate is NOT it.