Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Terotrous]

Yeah, I think the idea is supposed to be that Joker is a slightly below average character without Arsene and a slightly above average character with Arsene, but I'd say a more accurate description is that he's an average character with no Arsene and a somewhat ridiculous character with Arsene.

I seriously think that no-Arsene Joker would be like mid tier. I'd put no-Arsene joker above, say, Corrin for example. Faster, better frame data, better kill options, etc.

Kind of ironic that Corrin had DLC character privledge last time! I guess Joker's headed for the scrap heap in Smash 6.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Joker would've been fine without Arsene ever being a thing and his Down B reworked into a regular counter, but the fact he is the way he is means he's a pretty decent character that turns into a monster the second Arsene shows up. Any time I play Joker and I get Arsene, the way I FEEL as a player changes even, all of my moves gain greater range and the power / damage output of Ganon's moves.. but the speed Joker has is still present.

I actually think Joker + Arsene might be a little TOO good, honestly.. outside of having a linear recovery that's easy to 2-frame with Arsene out, he becomes an extremely scary and oppressive thing when he's out. I mean he goes from a character that actually has to work / put thought into killing you.. to a character that can kill you off a stray aerial at like 65-70%. The power increase from Arsene is insane, and it leaves Joker feeling somewhat lopsided. Timing out Arsene is never really viable if the Joker has a handle on the character, so your only real option is to try and beat Arsene out of him which puts you at massive risk. Because of the frame data on moves like BAir, NAir and Down B.. all of these make escaping disadvantage into a full reversal situation relatively easy with Joker. You take a single hit from him with Arsene out at above like 40% and you're put into an extremely bad position pretty much every time.. even if it was out of YOUR combo.

I think Arsene could do with some downtuning, all said. Arsene is less a win condition, and more win assurance.. because Joker without Arsene isn't this helpless thing that some people seem to think. Even if you suck at utilizing Rebel Guard, simply doing poorly and eating a combo or two will bring Arsene to the party and then Joker can screw you at pretty much any % if he lands the right move and proceeds to execute properly. The sheer amount of combos / confirms on this character is pretty up there, at a WIDE swath of percent ranges, Joker has means to follow things up into straight death or at the least, situations that make death a hell of a lot more likely.

Joker has been very polarizing, I've gone back and forth on him a lot.. but as he gets more developed he just gets more problematic looking to me.

 

[Arthur97]

I know first impressions of characters can often be wrong but I still find it funny how in the first month people were saying how Joker was likely mid tier and couldn't see him as higher. Sure, you had some people saying high tier at most but its interesting to see how peoples opinions shift after just one or two tournaments..
In this case, it appears people are steadily thinking higher of the fighter.

Really? Cause I seem to remember a lot of people saying how amazing he was out of the gate.

Yeah, I think the idea is supposed to be that Joker is a slightly below average character without Arsene and a slightly above average character with Arsene, but I'd say a more accurate description is that he's an average character with no Arsene and a somewhat ridiculous character with Arsene.

I seriously think that no-Arsene Joker would be like mid tier. I'd put no-Arsene joker above, say, Corrin for example. Faster, better frame data, better kill options, etc.

Kind of ironic that Corrin had DLC character privledge last time! I guess Joker's headed for the scrap heap in Smash 6.

If he comes back at all.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Really? Cause I seem to remember a lot of people saying how amazing he was out of the gate.

If he comes back at all.

I went from thinking he was a Low Tier, to a High Tier, to a Mid Tier / Top Tier hybrid to now likely just a Top Tier if boiled down / generalized into one package. Arsene is so good he makes regular Joker lopsided in comparison and pulls the character up a LOT imo.

If Joker has been anything, it's polarizing.

 

[Idon]

I went from thinking he was a Low Tier, to a High Tier, to a Mid Tier / Top Tier hybrid to now likely just a Top Tier if boiled down / generalized into one package. Arsene is so good he makes regular Joker lopsided in comparison and pulls the character up a LOT imo.

If Joker has been anything, it's polarizing.

Just like Arsene, I suppose.

Goddamn is it dumb to see Arsene pull a comeback after getting comboed.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Just like Arsene, I suppose.

Goddamn is it dumb to see Arsene pull a comeback after getting comboed.

That's kind of where I'm at with it, honestly. Arsene being brought up by good Down B usage / timing is one thing, Rebel management and all.. but seeing a Joker player eat a fat combo only to put out Arsene, land one BAir on you and proceed to delete the stock like it's nothing.. something just feels.. bad about that. I have no room to talk as an Olimar main I suppose, but my character has such abysmal disadvantage it leads to the above situation happening a LOT. All said that probably leaves me biased.. but I still think the character is a little ridiculous when Arsene shows up.

 

[Terotrous]

I think Arsene could do with some downtuning, all said. Arsene is less a win condition, and more win assurance.. because Joker without Arsene isn't this helpless thing that some people seem to think. Even if you suck at utilizing Rebel Guard, simply doing poorly and eating a combo or two will bring Arsene to the party and then Joker can screw you at pretty much any % if he lands the right move and proceeds to execute properly. The sheer amount of combos / confirms on this character is pretty up there, at a WIDE swath of percent ranges, Joker has means to follow things up into straight death or at the least, situations that make death a hell of a lot more likely.

I think the correct fix to Arsene is that it should be harder to get. Right now, Rebel Guard is a bit pointless because, as you noted, you get him anyway even without it. I feel like without using Rebel Guard, you should have to take around 150% damage to get Arsene, making it very unlikely you'd get it on your first stock unless you used Rebel Guard. You should probably be getting Arsene about once per match, maybe twice with good Rebel usage.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think the correct fix to Arsene is that it should be harder to get. Right now, Rebel Guard is a bit pointless because, as you noted, you get him anyway even without it. I feel like without using Rebel Guard, you should have to take around 150% damage to get Arsene, making it very unlikely you'd get it on your first stock unless you used Rebel Guard. You should probably be getting Arsene about once per match, maybe twice with good Rebel usage.

I think if it worked more similarly to like, Wario Waft or G&W bucket and followed you from stock to stock post-death without being lost while ALSO being harder to bring out by doing poorly would be a fair trade off, but you'd have to make it harder to build it via Down B as well to compensate I feel otherwise you could just take stock loss, counter once on respawn for damned near free and if your Hail Mary works, the lad of destruction has arrived to clear the stock deficit and make things problematic for their next stock (as you JUST got him in this scenario, so he's not just vanishing on respawn if they camp the platform) as well.

Perhaps you could make Arsene-less Joker better to work with this.. or maybe not? As the character is more developed, Joker without Arsene looks better and better.. which is exactly why Arsene being so good feels so off at the moment to me.

In a perfect world, I feel like Down B just being a regular counter of some kind (and not a means to build Arsene) or something else would've been great, then Arsene could've slowly built ala Wario Waft as the match went on, following from stock to stock on a timer. Perhaps doing damage or taking damage could slightly speed this process up, then eventually you built to Arsene and hit Down-B WHEN YOU WANTED to bring the Persona out. Perhaps Arsene could've lasted longer to compensate for this.. I cannot help but think THAT would've been such a better design. As-is, getting Arsene is easy, you can literally do it in the first 10 seconds of a match if things go a certain way.

 

[Arthur97]

Call it wishful thinking, but I'm still not convinced he's top tier even if Arsene is kind of cheap. Seriously, adding mechanics like this to make them sell better...just why?

 

[Terotrous]

In a perfect world, I feel like Down B just being a regular counter of some kind (and not a means to build Arsene) or something else would've been great, then Arsene could've slowly built ala Wario Waft as the match went on, following from stock to stock on a timer.

To be honest, I don't like that as much, Joker's current Arsene-less counter is a fairly unique move, I wouldn't want to trade it for another downB counter reskin. Also, don't forget, you lose quite a bit of meter when you lose a stock, so no-insta Arsene at the start of a stock. Right now, that kinda doesn't matter because you get Arsene so fast but if it took longer it would be more significant.

Call it wishful thinking, but I'm still not convinced he's top tier even if Arsene is kind of cheap. Seriously, adding mechanics like this to make them sell better...just why?

Well, you really couldn't have a Persona Character who doesn't use their Persona. I guess you could do it like how Persona 4 Arena does and doing some of his attacks just makes the Persona appear and do stuff, but if you could send it out any significant distance like you can in that game it might be even worse.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Joker is likely Mid-tier without Arsene, who becomes one of if not THE best character with Arsene. He is like some bizzare mix of Cloud and Lucario with how his persona mechanic works. Getting rewarded with additional damage, increased hitboxes , and comeback factor as Joker is getting damaged and increases at a higher rate when Joker is at high damaged and/or at a stock deficit, but its tied to an actual meter bar that gets expended and gives his special moves big boosts.

 

[DelugeFGC]

To be honest, I don't like that as much, Joker's current Arsene-less counter is a fairly unique move, I wouldn't want to trade it for another downB counter reskin. Also, don't forget, you lose quite a bit of meter when you lose a stock, so no-insta Arsene at the start of a stock. Right now, that kinda doesn't matter because you get Arsene so fast but if it took longer it would be more significant.


Well, you really couldn't have a Persona Character who doesn't use their Persona. I guess you could do it like how Persona 4 Arena does and doing some of his attacks just makes the Persona appear and do stuff, but if you could send it out any significant distance like you can in that game it might be even worse.

I was referring to that being a problem IF the mechanic was changed.

Also I feel the counter would still be unique on its own, given how it would be the Arsene counter.. which is two different counters.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

I don't know why in this thread people talk more about wanting to changes characters or the game rather that talking about character viability, or where the metagame is heading joker inclusion is still recent I don't think a few months is enough to know how strong a character is, unless that character is very very bad or broken.

About the topic of the meta I think some players are starting to realize that you need to respect moves and not autopilot with shield, spotdoging or movement see the game like a turn based one.

 

[Arthur97]

To be honest, I don't like that as much, Joker's current Arsene-less counter is a fairly unique move, I wouldn't want to trade it for another downB counter reskin. Also, don't forget, you lose quite a bit of meter when you lose a stock, so no-insta Arsene at the start of a stock. Right now, that kinda doesn't matter because you get Arsene so fast but if it took longer it would be more significant.


Well, you really couldn't have a Persona Character who doesn't use their Persona. I guess you could do it like how Persona 4 Arena does and doing some of his attacks just makes the Persona appear and do stuff, but if you could send it out any significant distance like you can in that game it might be even worse.

They could have gone about it better though as some have been talking. Maybe even just have it be a part of the moveset. It doesn't have to be so easy or so good.

 

[Roguewolf]

Joker new flavor of the month?

 

[DunnoBro]

I think the only issue with Joker is the 20% Meter Start on 2nd/3rd stock.

It pretty much guarantees Joker will get two Arsenes if he lives long enough. (First one before 50%~, second one after 120%~) and with no Rebel's guard usage.

I mean, I don't have extensive data on this but you can watch Joker matches for yourself and this is often the case. I really feel like Joker at Game Start is fine. But the 40%~ Free meter throughout the game is totally unnecessary, and kind of defeats the point of Rebel's guard past stock 1.

 

[Terotrous]

Joker new flavor of the month?

We'll see. It is possible that matchup unfamiliarity is playing a role. I also think Joker could kind of be an anti-meta character, I would imagine some of his worst matchups would be against characters who kill early (ie, Bowser, Ganon, Incineroar, Chrom, etc), since if he takes less damage, that's less Arsene, but we don't see them too often.

 

[Y2Kay]

Don't really understand this ''win condition'' thought process in Ultimate, seems more like a Smash 4 thing where most characters relied on a small handful of amazing tools propping up a bunch of mediocre, and for half of the the condition was ''get a grab''.

A win condition, at least in the sense I'm talking about at least, is a character specific mechanic that a player or players either works towards or against through out a match. This is a lot more common in other fighting games. For example, Pheonix Wright wants to gather all his evidence as soon as possible in Marvel 3. Susano'o from BlazBlue CF wants to land combos to unlock his most powerful moves as soon as possible. Probably the best example would be GnW's bucket. GnW's bucket when filled is so rewarding that GnW will most likely be cognizant of any opportunity to fill it while the opponent is also working to make sure not to give those opportunities to GnW. Obviously bucket isn't the only thing that matters in the matchups were it is relevant, which isn't what I'm trying to say.

Smash, when it comes to character design at least, seems more concerned with staying true to source material than it is developing unique mechanics, so win conditions outside of the basic "dont get hit while also hitting the opponent" aren't as common.

I don't think these types of win conditions are bad in a game as long as it provides opportunity for unique and deep levels of counterplay and counter-counterplay between opponents.

 

[NotLiquid]

We'll see. It is possible that matchup unfamiliarity is playing a role. I also think Joker could kind of be an anti-meta character, I would imagine some of his worst matchups would be against characters who kill early (ie, Bowser, Ganon, Incineroar, Chrom, etc), since if he takes less damage, that's less Arsene, but we don't see them too often.

I don't see how Ganondorf's matchup against Joker remains anything but abysmal. Maybe on wi-fi he's a threat, but he has to make a whole lot of read based attacks that are a Rebellion Guard smorgasbord. Any strengths both Bowser and Ganondorf may have against Joker are quashed by their gimpability, and they're both prime victims to gun jank. I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser is also susceptible to some custom combos considering his frame, and since Joker has an extremely potent combo game.

The two latter may have it easier. I feel like Joker's problem MUs are going to be fast characters that actually have good OoS options that lead into things; i.e characters like Fox and the electric rodents - maybe even Wario once Tweek optimizes the MU.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think people have dropped Lucina because she's boring, the other sword characters are just a lot more fun to play

This.

She is not hype. Not in smash. Not in her game.

Her dad tho?

Lit

 

[Arthur97]

This.

She is not hype. Not in smash. Not in her game.

Her dad tho?

Lit

Okay, now you're venturing dangerously close to character bashing. Let's keep it to Smash.

 

[Nah]

Emblem Lord's not really wrong though. Smash players (or just humans in general really) like flashy, explosive stuff. It's not that there's anything wrong with Lucina, it's just that, after what works well, what's important to a lot of people is....just what looks cool. And/or what lets them press buttons and gogogo at a million miles an hour. It's the same reason why Pit and Dank Pit will never be widely played characters either. Despite being fairly good characters in this game, they're too "vanilla" for many people.

Like personally, I think I'll stick with Lucina as my secondary cuz I'm in that minority that doesn't need flashiness to live/doesn't care much about "hype", but the reality is that many people do, and saying so isn't necessarily bashing a character everybody believes is very strong regardless.

or something

 

[ARISTOS]

I wish that people would stop using words like "linearity." What does that even mean?

Someone define it concretely for me, because I guarantee you that everyone using the word has a different sense of what it means from everyone else, and I further guarantee you that whatever meaning it actually is intended to convey on average doesn't have anything to do with the semantic concept of linearity at all.

I think when people are talking linearity they're of two minds.

The first is linearity as "simplicity" in that "linear" characters can operate with a relatively procedural flowchart to win games. This would be how you get the Lucina "just throw out aerials" and Palutena "lol nair". I think this understanding of linearity can be flimsy though-most characters in the game can be operated with a simple flowchart, the characters themselves are not complicated enough to make it not the case. You can totally play fishing for utilt/grab until you kill with a smash read/utilt bair, pre-3.0 you could totally play with pellets/metal blade into jump-leaf shield ad infinitum and it would work. It seems more a way to disparage top tiers than anything else.


The second I think is closer to the idea of linearity, in that is a lack of multifaceted-ness. In this case, the character has only a few options in any given scenario and has to make do with those options. Palutena and Lucina are incredibly multifaceted in terms of playing Smash-multiple ways to hit shield, multiple ways to force kills, etc. If there was a character who I believe actually fit more into a linear mold, it would be /, who pretty heavily relies on nair to do most of his work. That being said, you can tackle linearity in a lot of different ways (I haven't seen .san's Ike in Ultimate, but I'm sure it'd be schmoovin).

I think people get the two confused because 1. the popular idea that top tiers are dumb easy and 2. Smash lends itself to characters that can just do stuff and get away with it. Palutena can attack at so many various angles (making her very multifaceted) but people see it as simple because she gets away with things it feels like she shouldn't. Same goes for Lucina, same goes for Wolf.

 

[Terotrous]

I don't see how Ganondorf's matchup against Joker remains anything but abysmal. Maybe on wi-fi he's a threat, but he has to make a whole lot of read based attacks that are a Rebellion Guard smorgasbord. Any strengths both Bowser and Ganondorf may have against Joker are quashed by their gimpability, and they're both prime victims to gun jank. I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser is also susceptible to some custom combos considering his frame, and since Joker has an extremely potent combo game.

The two latter may have it easier. I feel like Joker's problem MUs are going to be fast characters that actually have good OoS options that lead into things; i.e characters like Fox and the electric rodents - maybe even Wario once Tweek optimizes the MU.

I don't really know too much about Ganon, but honestly I think Bowser is pretty legit in this game. He's got solid Nair combos and side B that can take stocks early and neutral B is a pretty potent tool as well. And of course, UpB OOS remains a strong option that can punish dash attack even when it goes through and does a ton of damage. I also don't see his recovery being that easy to gimp without Arsene hitboxes. The real question is whether or not he can get zoned out by Eiga, I feel like that would be the gameplan in this match.

In any case though, the basic idea was just that killing Joker early = good. Even in the current patch, it seems like he tends to get Arsene around 85-90 with no rebel guard, and many heavies tend to land kill moves around there.

I think the only issue with Joker is the 20% Meter Start on 2nd/3rd stock.

Is that how this works? It's kind of embarassing that I play this character and I don't know, it just goes to show I guess how little attention you have to pay to the meter. I feel like the way it should work is that you should just lose half your current Arsene charge (at current, this would mean more Arsenes, but if we cut the meter gain rate by half I think it would work out better overall).

 

[|RK|]

Why is everyone in this thread blaming Mr E dropping Lucina due to her linearity, when I clearly said that he dropped her because some aspects of her doesn't fit his playstyle? For reference, here is his tweet saying that:

Also I don't think Lucina is bad or anything by any means. She's clearly good enough to win and beat any character. I just feel like there's some individual areas I excel in where as Lucina, I don't feel I can express that as much as I want to

— EMP FC | Mr. E - ON METAFY (@MreSSB) May 28, 2019

To be fair, you could easily read linearity into this. Not that it's guaranteed to be the reason, but:

A char where you can't express yourself usually = set playstyle, set playstyle = linear.

In comparison, say, S4 Cloud, you can play however the hell you want.

Lucina being a defensive character and mainly only being able to be defensive has carried over from S4. That's a big reason ZeRo noted that he started to favor Cloud over her in that game.

 

[B_Burg]

Please no. He's been able to get away fine with the last few nerfs but I'm worried that sooner or later they'll just all add up if they keep doing this.

Oh trust me, I'm really hoping they, if nothing else, just leave him alone at this point. He didn't even need the 2nd round of nerfs he got.

But considering the first two patches, I'm not optimistic.

 

[Arthur97]

Emblem Lord's not really wrong though. Smash players (or just humans in general really) like flashy, explosive stuff. It's not that there's anything wrong with Lucina, it's just that, after what works well, what's important to a lot of people is....just what looks cool. And/or what lets them press buttons and gogogo at a million miles an hour. It's the same reason why Pit and Dank Pit will never be widely played characters either. Despite being fairly good characters in this game, they're too "vanilla" for many people.

Like personally, I think I'll stick with Lucina as my secondary cuz I'm in that minority that doesn't need flashiness to live/doesn't care much about "hype", but the reality is that many people do, and saying so isn't necessarily bashing a character everybody believes is very strong regardless.

or something

I was referring to the part about in her game. Of course, boring is still kind of subjective either way.

To be fair, you could easily read linearity into this. Not that it's guaranteed to be the reason, but:

A char where you can't express yourself usually = set playstyle, set playstyle = linear.

In comparison, say, S4 Cloud, you can play however the hell you want.

Lucina being a defensive character and mainly only being able to be defensive has carried over from S4. That's a big reason ZeRo noted that he started to favor Cloud over her in that game.

You...seem intent on making those tweets about linearity.

 

[|RK|]

I was referring to the part about in her game. Of course, boring is still kind of subjective either way.

You...seem intent on making those tweets about linearity.

Nah. Just provided a possible reading. Please feel free to ignore or explain why I'm crazy.

I truly don't care how people perceive Lucina or not.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord's not really wrong though. Smash players (or just humans in general really) like flashy, explosive stuff. It's not that there's anything wrong with Lucina, it's just that, after what works well, what's important to a lot of people is....just what looks cool. And/or what lets them press buttons and gogogo at a million miles an hour. It's the same reason why Pit and Dank Pit will never be widely played characters either. Despite being fairly good characters in this game, they're too "vanilla" for many people.

Like personally, I think I'll stick with Lucina as my secondary cuz I'm in that minority that doesn't need flashiness to live/doesn't care much about "hype", but the reality is that many people do, and saying so isn't necessarily bashing a character everybody believes is very strong regardless.

or something

Facts.

A lot of smash players really enjoy being flashy. I feel that just goes back to the first two games being so combo oriented and execution heavy.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Emblem Lord's not really wrong though. Smash players (or just humans in general really) like flashy, explosive stuff. It's not that there's anything wrong with Lucina, it's just that, after what works well, what's important to a lot of people is....just what looks cool. And/or what lets them press buttons and gogogo at a million miles an hour. It's the same reason why Pit and Dank Pit will never be widely played characters either. Despite being fairly good characters in this game, they're too "vanilla" for many people.

Like personally, I think I'll stick with Lucina as my secondary cuz I'm in that minority that doesn't need flashiness to live/doesn't care much about "hype", but the reality is that many people do, and saying so isn't necessarily bashing a character everybody believes is very strong regardless.

or something

Well if this is the case, people clearly aren't going for enough Dair spikes with her.
That always arouses the crowd.

EDIT: Yes I know there's many other reason why people don't find Lucy snazzy...
I'm just saying that she can be flashy.
Getting this out there before someone gets at me about how "wrong" I am.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I'll add to Emblem Lord 's comments, it's very real. I wanted to play Belmonts because it's Simon Belmont, my most requested character in smash, voted for him on the smash ballot, overjoyed to see him in the game. Then I saw the playstyle... Neutral. Reset. Neutral. Reset. Neutral. Chip, chip, chip. Ledge trap.
It's boring af. All the top players put belmonts high/mid-high and literally none of them play the character or ever will. (And they don't realize all the problems...)
Ken is my secondary now. Why? Because his combos are flashy, fun and cool. And I don't have to get my opponent to 160%, that also helps.

 

[Sean²]

As a competitive player, you never truly lose until you begin making decisions based off the crowd.

That's not a fabulous line of reasoning to call a character boring, imo, especially when a lot of people who spectate Smash ONLY spectate the game competitively and really don't know the finer nuances of what's ever happening.

Who suggested making decisions based on the crowd? I know I didn't.

I played Lucina daily for a good couple weeks to try to train a secondary that wasn't a random mid or low tier character for once. Got bored fast, couldn't play her for hours on end and keep having fun like I could other characters. Luckily, most of what I picked up was able to mostly transfer to Marth. There's just not loads of depth or excitement with Lucina to keep someone interested from day 1 to eternity. I figured it could have just been me, but I'm clearly not the only one that has had these thoughts on Lucina from a player's standpoint. The stereotype exists for a reason.

I'm feeling like you replied mostly because of the comparison to Olimar. Yes, Olimar has a lot more depth than Lucina with Pikmin management and all. That's why he consistently has had more dedicated mains over the span of multiple games. No, he really isn't that fun to watch for a large majority of spectators, as he befell a similar fate to Lucina from that viewpoint: moves that are super basic looking and non-flashy. Replace basic sword swings with basic Pikmin swings and tosses. It's a reason as to why his dedicated mains are mostly those who have mained him in previous games. He doesn't exactly excite new players like other characters do, as there's a lot to master and he doesn't exude "flashiness". In the hypest Olimar set in Ultimate's history so far, everyone was cheering for Richter Belmont the entire time. Who keeps Olimar as a secondary? Almost no one. You solo main Olimar or you don't touch him. That's commonly how it is.

But no one's telling you not to enjoy watching or playing who you like to play. Just pointing out what I believe to be the thoughts of the masses.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I see that quite a few people here do not really like how Jokers "Arsene mechanic" works right now. I wondered who and I realized that Joker is similar to an issue many people have with a comeback mechanic in Street Fighter V, mainly the V meter and Trigger system. Because Joker Arsene works very similar to how they work in SFV. Bascially characters have a V-meter that fills up when they take/do damage, and have a move that they can use called a V-Skill to also get meter if they successfully use it (i.e Down-b). Once they get the fill up the meter and activate V-trigger, . They give various temporary buffs until the meter fully depletes , such as increased power, or get new abilities and options altogether such as combos, mix-ups and more

The issue as you can imagine is that not all of these Triggers are created equal. There are some V-Triggers in threat game once active, are powerful enough to basically turn the entire tide of round and gain the advantage if given one opprotunity even if they have like a sliver of life left and the oppoent is nearly untouched, like then round in like around 10 seconds kind of comeback ability. Even characters considered not exactly OP on their own become monsters with V-Triggers. Which is what many people consider as too strong of a comeback mechanic. I dunno people are talking about Joker as simialr dislike of the SFV mechanic

 

[Krysco]

I can understand how Mr. E feels in regards to his tweet of switching from Lucina to Chrom. Of the FE crew, I focused on Roy first since he was one of my best characters in 4 and I naturally gave Chrom a try since he's Roy's echo. Ended up preferring Chrom and then after that I decided to try out Marth and Lucina since they're still similar and every time I used them, I just sat there thinking 'I could basically have the same tools but be having so much more fun right now if I was Roy or Chrom'. I missed the higher dash speed, air speed and fall speed, the shorter short hop and the more combo oriented moves like jab and fair and when comparing Lucina and Chrom specifically, I missed having a killing ftilt (honestly, my favourite move in Chrom's entire kit). If I ever end up going to tournaments and find that I need or want a secondary, I could very well pick up Marth or Lucina since they're similar enough to Chrom and of the two, I'd likely pick Marth since his tipper mechanic simply makes him more interesting to me. Though I'd likely pick someone more drastically different from Chrom anyways to shake up my playstyle overall.

As for the Joker and Arsene discussion, I've noticed overall that the Smash fanbase doesn't tend to like comeback mechanics and that could very well be true for other FGCs too. Most players and spectators seem to have never really liked Lucario, claiming that he encourages poor play and such and Smash 4 Cloud was already a decent character without Limit and then became a speed demon sword wielder without his biggest weakness once he did have Limit. Mac's KO Punch probably isn't disliked as much simply because it's on Mac. The character is flawed enough that having a comeback mechanic hardly matters (plus it's the easiest one to remove and honestly the least impactful too). Ultimate Cloud doesn't get much flack but then I don't even know if there's any noteworthy players who use him. Limit having a timer can also kinda make it a bit of a liability too. As Cloud, you'd always want to have Limit but most specifically when you're trying to recover but since you gain it from dealing and taking damage and charging whenever you choose to, you're never really in control of when you have it. You just get it from playing the game whether you're winning or losing neutral and it probably means more to Cloud than Arsene does to Joker. Vanilla Joker still has a decent recovery while Vanilla Cloud has one of the worst in the game and yet Joker gets to keep his for longer. I'm no expert on either character though so if I'm spewing crap, then please do correct me.

 

[Arthur97]

Nah. Just provided a possible reading. Please feel free to ignore or explain why I'm crazy.

I truly don't care how people perceive Lucina or not.

You just seem to be reaching to make that statement about linearity just to prove it could be.

Also, again, I called Emblem Lord out for taking a shot at her in her home series.

 

[ARISTOS]

You just seem to be reaching to make that statement about linearity just to prove it could be.

Also, again, I called Emblem Lord out for taking a shot at her in her home series.

You are getting very defensive over a blue haired 3D model.

Chill out lol no one here hates Lucina

 

[Lacrimosa]

This.

She is not hype. Not in smash. Not in her game.

Her dad tho?

Lit

Chrom is lit when he gets easily edgeguarded.
Like, in almost every matchup :3.


Why that uneccessary character bashing :/?

 

[|RK|]

You just seem to be reaching to make that statement about linearity just to prove it could be.

Also, again, I called Emblem Lord out for taking a shot at her in her home series.

I said my piece, tbh. I'm not going to argue about it since you haven't really made a point against it. Happy to discuss, tho.

EDIT: Are we still talking about how Chrom gets easily edgeguarded despite the fact that he kinda doesn't at top level?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I said my piece, tbh. I'm not going to argue about it since you haven't really made a point against it. Happy to discuss, tho.

EDIT: Are we still talking about how Chrom gets easily edgeguarded despite the fact that he kinda doesn't at top level?

The GOAT (Shoyo James) does not get edgeguarded easily you mean to say.

Also lol@ people getting offended over someone saying a character is boring.

Lucina is a concept. She is not real.

That said, it's not her fault she is not hype. The narrative of Awakening does a poor job of portraying her struggle in her time. Unlike say Chrom who we see actually bear witness to his greatest loss and the great responsibilities that follow.

Blame Nintendo for one sided story telling.

As far as gameplay in Smash goes, Lucina does one thing really well. She controls space in a threatening way at little risk to herself. She is not an incredibly tricky character. Which is fine. But she has a clear ceiling that is much lower compared to other top tiers.

Pros are leaving because they see the top of her peak, while other characters are still being figured out.

It is boring and even somewhat disheartening to think your character is at their limit while others have so much more room to grow.

 

[ON-2]

Oh trust me, I'm really hoping they, if nothing else, just leave him alone at this point. He didn't even need the 2nd round of nerfs he got.

But considering the first two patches, I'm not optimistic.

At this point I really don't see what is worth nerfing on him. I am biased and decent at best at the game but anymore nerfs would probably be enough for cracks to form in the character.

I don't think he will ever revert to his Smash 4 self at least. Either way I'm just holding out that Megaman won't become the next 'Nerf Greninja' meme.